#### Tumeni

• 1875
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2020, 08:48:25 PM »
Take your image, flip it left to right, move the origin point slightly left, and you have exactly the same as my graphic, just viewed obliquely from the opposite hemisphere as opposed to my top-down view.

Don't you see it?

Like this;

and here's my original with the zero to 90 angle indicated.

Don't you see it?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 09:58:35 PM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### Tumeni

• 1875
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2020, 09:51:57 PM »
If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.

Showed you how, with a series of 3D models. Have you looked at them at all?

Once again, midnight does not occur at the farthest point on Earth from the Sun, for an observer at 52 degrees North.

The combination of their latitude, along with the Earth's axial tilt, toward the left side of the sun, allows them a position with a clear view toward the Moon in the latter part of its first quarter of orbit.

How is it that so much of this fits perfectly consistently with the standard globe model, but you still deny it?

When viewed from above, with some more labels for you;

When viewed from the side of the Earth opposite the Sun;

=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### Tumeni

• 1875
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2020, 10:19:52 PM »
If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.

1 By virtue of the fact that the Moon is approx 70 degrees through the first quarter of its cycle, so only 20 degrees away from being AT the border between day and night side;
2 By virtue of the Moon having passed an ascending node, placing it above the plane of the Earth and Sun;
3 By virtue of the axial tilt of the Earth pointing toward the Sun (but not directly at it);
4 By virtue of the observation position, already at 52 degrees North, being moved further toward the Sun by the axial tilt
5 By virtue of the fact that midnight is not exactly at the midpoint between sunset and sunrise, placing it closer to the Moon's side of the Earth

All illustrated in the 3D models labelled above. Let me know when you've examined all of them.
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6947
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2020, 10:52:26 PM »
I've examined your argument. You are now drifting to a "not exactly solar midnight" argument, apparently conceding that my argument was correct. Solar Midnight often occurs within an hour of UTC midnight. Find out when Solar Midnight occurs and you will find that the Moon is above the horizon on that night, at that time, for that location.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

#### Tumeni

• 1875
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2020, 10:59:56 PM »
I've examined your argument. You are now drifting to a "not exactly solar midnight" argument, apparently conceding that my argument was correct. Solar Midnight often occurs within an hour of UTC midnight. Find out when Solar Midnight occurs and you will find that the Moon is above the horizon on that night, at that time, for that location.

Have not drifted at all. Right from the start, I outlined that sunset and sunrise times indicate where and when Blunham crossed the terminator, and the differences in those times tell you where it was at midnight on the clock. Midnight on the clock places it closer to the Moon, on the side of the Earth facing the Moon.

You need to show everyone watching here what difference would be made to the observation by observing at either solar midnight, or at midnight on the clock. You need to define what difference it makes. You introduced the topic first. You go first. You also need to show exactly when the observer observed.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 11:11:29 PM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### Tumeni

• 1875
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2020, 11:05:04 PM »

Now tell us how it is possible that some people have seen the crescent moon at midnight: https://savageplane.wordpress.com/2019/02/13/impossible-heliocentric-moon-phases-explained/

Were you talking about solar midnight here, Tom? If so, why didn't you say so?

If the Earth shrunken to half it's size, with Blunham at the edge rather than the equator, the Moon will still be below the horizon.

but ...

I've examined your argument. You are now drifting to a "not exactly solar midnight" argument, apparently conceding that my argument was correct. Solar Midnight often occurs within an hour of UTC midnight. Find out when Solar Midnight occurs and you will find that the Moon is above the horizon on that night, at that time, for that location.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 11:10:51 PM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6947
• Flat Earth Believer
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2020, 11:27:46 PM »
I've already shown you why it doesn't work at Solar Midnight. So did the person in the Savage Plane link. That's why you are trying to move your little orange dot is not at midnight, so it might be possible to see some slight angle behind the earth.

As you are conceding that it's not possible at Solar Midnight, the correct thing to do is to find whether is up at Solar Midnight or not. You will find that the Moon is up at Solar Midnight.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

#### Tumeni

• 1875
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2020, 11:33:47 PM »
I've already shown you why it doesn't work at Solar Midnight.

Yet this is the first mention you've made of Solar Midnight. Why didn't you specify that's what you thought you were proving earlier? And in which post do you think you proved it?

As you are conceding that it's not possible at Solar Midnight ...

I don't think I actually said that. I think you said that.

The Mooncalc screen grab that you showed earlier, in relation to the blog. What time is shown on that?

What time was the observation? You tell us. You've read the blog
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 11:36:58 PM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### Tumeni

• 1875
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2020, 11:53:06 PM »
If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.

1 By virtue of the fact that the Moon is approx 70 degrees through the first quarter of its cycle, so only 20 degrees away from being AT the border between day and night side;
2 By virtue of the Moon having passed an ascending node, placing it above the plane of the Earth and Sun;
3 By virtue of the axial tilt of the Earth pointing toward the Sun (but not directly at it);
4 By virtue of the observation position, already at 52 degrees North, being moved further toward the Sun by the axial tilt
5 By virtue of the fact that midnight is not exactly at the midpoint between sunset and sunrise, placing it closer to the Moon's side of the Earth

All illustrated in the 3D models labelled above. Let me know when you've examined all of them.

All that your solar midnight argument can change is No. 5, Tom - which still leaves four of them
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### Jay Seneca

• 60
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2020, 05:56:57 AM »
Say you could see the Crescent moon from Blunham at midnight on a RE.  That would make sunrise at about 1-2am or sunset 10-11pm depending if it’s waxing or waning.

#### Jay Seneca

• 60
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #90 on: February 19, 2020, 06:35:55 AM »
The author goes to lengths to explain that it doesn't really matter.

What "doesn't really matter"?

If the Earth shrunken to half it's size, with Blunham at the edge rather than the equator, the Moon will still be below the horizon.

I see a failure of the Round Earth model to explain this. I thought you said that RE could explain all observations?

I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins

#### wpeszko

• 10
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #91 on: February 19, 2020, 07:12:15 AM »
You will find that the Moon is up at Solar Midnight.
Quite a common thing. Now what's the horizon plane for Bulham on that midnight?  Where's the Moon? Find out and draw a proper diagram.

#### Tumeni

• 1875
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #92 on: February 19, 2020, 09:16:30 AM »
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins

You need to consider the speed and behaviour of the Moon's shadow, not the Moon. The core point is that the Moon moves in a circle around the Earth's centre  completing that circle slower than a single Earth rotation, but the shadow does not move like this.

Think about how the shadow is cast by the Sun, and what its behaviour will be as the Moon moves in a circle.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 09:25:59 AM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### AllAroundTheWorld

• 3120
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #93 on: February 19, 2020, 11:09:41 AM »
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins

This was explained at great length in this thread

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14812.120

Even Tom "got" it in the end. It is a bit complicated and counter-intuitive but hopefully the diagrams and explanation will help you understand it.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

#### Tumeni

• 1875
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #94 on: February 19, 2020, 11:46:36 AM »
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins

You need to consider the speed and behaviour of the Moon's shadow, not the Moon. The core point is that the Moon moves in a circle around the Earth's centre  completing that circle slower than a single Earth rotation, but the shadow does not move like this.

Think about how the shadow is cast by the Sun, and what its behaviour will be as the Moon moves in a circle.

Like this

=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

#### Jay Seneca

• 60
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #95 on: February 20, 2020, 05:27:16 AM »
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins

This was explained at great length in this thread

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14812.120

Even Tom "got" it in the end. It is a bit complicated and counter-intuitive but hopefully the diagrams and explanation will help you understand it.

I’m talking about the UMBRA.  Which means the Sun, Earth, and are in a straight line. Which should be mid-day for the observer on Earth. As the earth spins the moon and sun are going from eastbound west. There’s no way the shadow can make it all the way to the other side the world going in the opposite direction. And with only one light source a shadow cannot be smaller than what creates it.  It can be larger or even the same size. But it can never be smaller .

#### wpeszko

• 10
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #96 on: February 20, 2020, 09:14:47 AM »
As the earth spins the moon and sun are going from eastbound west.
Are they moving at the same angular speed?

#### AllAroundTheWorld

• 3120
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #97 on: February 20, 2020, 09:53:34 AM »
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins

This was explained at great length in this thread

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14812.120

Even Tom "got" it in the end. It is a bit complicated and counter-intuitive but hopefully the diagrams and explanation will help you understand it.

I’m talking about the UMBRA.  Which means the Sun, Earth, and are in a straight line. Which should be mid-day for the observer on Earth. As the earth spins the moon and sun are going from eastbound west. There’s no way the shadow can make it all the way to the other side the world going in the opposite direction.

That is explained in that thread.

Quote
And with only one light source a shadow cannot be smaller than what creates it.  It can be larger or even the same size. But it can never be smaller.

Incorrect, and explained quite well in this video

If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

#### Jay Seneca

• 60
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #98 on: February 20, 2020, 01:10:27 PM »
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins

This was explained at great length in this thread

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14812.120

Even Tom "got" it in the end. It is a bit complicated and counter-intuitive but hopefully the diagrams and explanation will help you understand it.

I’m talking about the UMBRA.  Which means the Sun, Earth, and are in a straight line. Which should be mid-day for the observer on Earth. As the earth spins the moon and sun are going from eastbound west. There’s no way the shadow can make it all the way to the other side the world going in the opposite direction.

That is explained in that thread.

Quote
And with only one light source a shadow cannot be smaller than what creates it.  It can be larger or even the same size. But it can never be smaller.

Incorrect, and explained quite well in this video

That’s a cute demonstration. He forgot to turn the orange.  And the UMBRA happens when all 3 are lined up in a straight line and it can only happen at mid day.
Did you notice how big the shadow was!!!

#### Jay Seneca

• 60
##### Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #99 on: February 20, 2020, 01:13:44 PM »
The video you just showed would have the moon rising in the west and setting in the east. Do you have a video that the moon would rise in the east and set in the west while the shadow goes from west to east.