Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2019, 08:43:00 PM »
He rotated the Earth 15 degrees per "hour". That's the agreed upon rate. He moved the Moon through it's orbit at 0.5 degrees per "hour". That's about right for the Moon's orbital speed, right?
Shadow moved as predicted.

So what are these "problems" you imagine could somehow exist with this? He made a scale model of the Earth and Moon and moved them at the appropriate rates. Are you suggesting he did not?

He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.

It doesn't matter if the Earth is spinning at 0 miles per hour or 1,000,000 miles per hour. What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.

Tom, answer these questions please.
1) How fast do we observe the Sun moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
2) How fast do we observe the Moon moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
3) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Sun moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)
4) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Moon moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)

Before you answer, I want to make it clear to all that I will take refusal to answer as evidence of pure trolling. Furthermore, since I've stated as much, we must all take refusal to answer to mean that you WANT me to conclude that you are trolling.

If you're not trolling, here's your chance. 4 simple questions. Answer them or just tell us you're trolling. Either way.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #121 on: May 22, 2019, 09:12:43 PM »
He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.

- - - If you were to look at the Moon from the Sun, toward the Earth, it would pass in front of the Earth from left to right, then pass behind it from right to left.

So he has modelled this correctly, in moving the Moon from left to right. The object of the modelling is to apply the textbook, commonly-accepted attributes of the Sun/Earth/Moon system, to see if they match what people saw.  If you look at the model from the direction of the Sun, you have to then apply some thinking to how that would appear to you, looking back from the Earth toward the Moon and Sun

As I said a couple of posts ago, which way would you like the diagrams to be drawn? What do you feel would help you?

I can draw it from the POV of someone on Earth, from the top down, from the bottom up, from the side, from the Sun .... choose.  - - -



It doesn't matter if the Earth is spinning at 0 miles per hour or 1,000,000 miles per hour. What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.

Yes, you saw this in the T&D animation you posted earlier, an animation which matched what people saw in real life.

The Sun moves E-W across the sky for the observer
The Moon moves E-W across the sky for the observer, but slower

Net result - the Moon moves W-E across the face of the Sun BECAUSE it "travels slower than the Sun in the sky"

This is in accord with the direction the shadow took across the face of the Earth. You do see the connection, don't you?

The Moon passes W-E across the face of the Sun
The shadow of the Moon moves W-E across the face of the Earth

The observers, in the Northern Hemisphere, see the Moon and Sun in the Southern sky. Movement of the two from E-W is from left to right across their field of vision. If you look South, East is to your left, West to your right.

The net movement of the Moon across the face of the Sun is from the observer's right to their left, from W-E, so since the Moon is moving across the Sun this way, the shadow follows.

No?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #122 on: May 22, 2019, 09:27:57 PM »
Put another way;

According to what we observe:

- The Sun sets in the West.
- The Moon sets in the West.



The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.

.... so the net result, if the Moon should get between the Earth and the Sun, is that the slower Moon moves W-E across the face of the sun, isn't it? They're both heading West, the Moon is slower, so the Moon will appear to move East in relation to the Sun.

The shadow moved W-E, in accord with the Moon's net motion across the face of the Sun.

No?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #123 on: May 22, 2019, 10:29:05 PM »
Quote
What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky

Tom that is wholly and categorically wrong. For example at 00h UT on 23rd May the Moons RA on the sky is 19h 33m 49s. 24 hours later at 00h UT on 24th May the Moon RA is 20h 26m 26s. That is a eastwards difference of just under 1hr RA. 7mins less than 1 hour to be precise.

By comparison the Suns position on the sky at 00h UT on 23rd May is 03h 56m 53s. 24 hours later at 00h UT on 24th May it is 04h 0m 54s or about 4 minutes further eastwards of its position 24 hours earlier.

How do you interpret that as the Sun moving faster on the sky than the Moon?

All these videos and diagrams being presented here are all well and good but the positional data I am presenting here is the actual positions of the Sun and Moon on the sky over a 24 hour period. Real data. If we are going to have a meaningful debate about all this then at least let us get our facts right.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 10:45:46 PM by tellytubby »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #124 on: May 22, 2019, 11:16:07 PM »
Quote
What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky

Tom that is wholly and categorically wrong. For example at 00h UT on 23rd May the Moons RA on the sky is 19h 33m 49s. 24 hours later at 00h UT on 24th May the Moon RA is 20h 26m 26s. That is a eastwards difference of just under 1hr RA. 7mins less than 1 hour to be precise.

By comparison the Suns position on the sky at 00h UT on 23rd May is 03h 56m 53s. 24 hours later at 00h UT on 24th May it is 04h 0m 54s or about 4 minutes further eastwards of its position 24 hours earlier.

How do you interpret that as the Sun moving faster on the sky than the Moon?

All these videos and diagrams being presented here are all well and good but the positional data I am presenting here is the actual positions of the Sun and Moon on the sky over a 24 hour period. Real data. If we are going to have a meaningful debate about all this then at least let us get our facts right.

You're talking actual positions in their orbits, surely? Tom is talking about an observer's view from the Earth

If the Sun has made less Eastward progress than the Moon over a set period (4m as opposed to 53m), then it will be seen, from the POV of an observer on Earth, to be moving Westward across the sky faster than the Moon. Earth rotation causes both to rise in the Eastern sky and set in the West. The one which has moved furthest East will appear to move slower across the sky than the other.

No?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #125 on: May 22, 2019, 11:33:06 PM »
No I am talking about the actual observed positions on the sky. We use RA and Dec to describe where to point telescopes.

1 hour RA equates to 15 degrees of sky along the celestial equator. Equivalent to longitude but in the sky. Measured from the 1st pointvof Aries although it is actually in Pisces now.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #126 on: May 23, 2019, 06:05:49 AM »
No I am talking about the actual observed positions on the sky. We use RA and Dec to describe where to point telescopes.

1 hour RA equates to 15 degrees of sky along the celestial equator. Equivalent to longitude but in the sky. Measured from the 1st point of Aries although it is actually in Pisces now.

Measured Eastward?

So the object with the higher figure (Moon) has gone further Eastward than the other (Sun) over the same timeframe?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #127 on: May 23, 2019, 06:40:22 AM »
Quote
So the object with the higher figure (Moon) has gone further Eastward than the other (Sun) over the same timeframe?

Precisely. Relative to the stars.

Yes RA is measured eastwards as we look at the sky.  If you point your telescope at the First Point of Aries (actually in Pisces as I said) and then set the setting circle on the mount so it reads 0h 00m and then move the telescope eastwards (to the left) by 30 degrees then the setting circle will read 2h 00m. And so on. 15 degrees to the west (right) of the FPA is 23hrs RA.

RA and Dec is a coordinate system. The North Celestial Pole (very near Polaris) is +90 degrees declination. The celestial equator is zero degrees declination. So at my latitude (51.5 degrees north) any star or other celestial body that has a declination of 51.5 degrees will pass directly overhead as it transits the meridian.

I have already described RA. 1hr of RA measured along the celestial equator equates to 15 degrees of sky. 15 x 24 = 360 degrees. The stars are fixed on the sky at timescales of days, months and several years so their RA and Dec readings are also fixed. But the Moon and Sun move around the sky (as do the planets, comets asteroids etc) relative to the stars and so their RA and Dec readings change on an hourly and daily basis. The Moon moves fastest against the stars (because it is nearest) and so it shows the biggest change in RA especially over the course of 24 hours.  That's what my figures posted yesterday showed.

You would expect the Moon to show the greatest movement east because it orbits the Earth every month or 27 days. So it has to complete one circuit of the sky in 27 days.  Just think in the space of two weeks it goes from being in line with the Sun (new Moon) to being opposite the Sun in the sky (full Moon.  That is an elongation change of 180 degees in 2 weeks. You will notice that the Moon moves further and further east w.r.t to the Sun each night after a new Moon. At new Moon Moonset and Sunset happen at the same time.  At first quarter Moon the Moon is roughly due south during early evening as the Sun is setting in the west.

In the morning sky when we have last quarter Moon, the Sun is now in the east while the Moon is visible to the south. In other words while the Moons phase waxes the Sun leads (to the west of) the Moon. After full Moon when the Moons phase is waning, so the Moon leads the Sun. That is why the Moon will always approach the Sun from the west and why an eclipse track (the shadow of the Moon) will move from west to east.  When you have studied these things in depth for a long time, you get to understand what is happening and why.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 07:49:36 AM by tellytubby »

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #128 on: May 23, 2019, 01:14:23 PM »
He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.
You keep on using my diagrams but you keep ignoring the bit of my email where I explained that in real life the moon is a lot further away.
Why do you keep doing that? This is roughly to scale:



At the start of the day as the earth rotates the moon is in the position shown at the bottom and it rises in the East - bottom dotted line.
12 hours later the moon sets in the West. Top dotted line.
Yes, the moon has moved in that time to the top position but in terms of angular velocity the earth rotates much faster than the moon goes around us, so we see it go around the sky. But if there is an eclipse then the absolute speed is a factor in what happens to the shadow. You'll see above I've put an arrow pointing upwards next to the earth. That indicates the earth rotating over a certain period of time. But the moon is going about twice as fast so in the same time the moon travels twice as far - so the arrow on the right is twice as long to indicate how far the moon travels.

Looking at 3 close ups, we get the diagrams I drew before. The moon is at the bottom of the arrow on the right. I can't show that on this scale but it's the same dotted line as in the above.
You are at the bottom of the arrow next to the earth so the shadow is to your west:



Now the moon is in the middle of the arrow on the right and you are in the middle of the arrow next to the earth so now you are in the eclipse:



Now the moon is at the top of the arrow to the right and you are at the top of the arrow next to the earth. So now the shadow is to your east:



So the shadow moves west to east but as you can see from the top diagram, the moon rises in the east and sets in the west.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Macarios

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #129 on: May 23, 2019, 01:50:41 PM »
In RE model it looks like this:

Relative to the Sun:
Moon travels eastwards faster than the Earth's surface travels eastwards so Moon's shadow overtakes meridians.

Relative to the Earth:
Sun travels westwards faster than the Moon, and Moon falls behind, casting the shadow more and more to the east.

~~~~~

What is happening in the FE model?

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #130 on: May 23, 2019, 02:19:45 PM »
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #131 on: May 23, 2019, 02:34:32 PM »
Since the daily observed motion east to west across the sky is pretty much (well no actually) entirely due to the Earths rotation, you would expect that the rate of movement would be essentially the same.  You are stating a difference of .5 degrees or 30 arc seconds. That for me is very similar so I would certainly agree with that. if anything a half degree difference in an hour is a tad on the generous side.

Let's remember that the time difference between Moon/Sun rise and set is also decided by the N/S variation of their respective paths against the celestial equator. For the northern hemisphere the Moon is in the sky much longer in winter and less time in summer.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 02:39:49 PM by tellytubby »

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #132 on: May 23, 2019, 03:50:47 PM »
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?

No, think of it this way: Imagine the earth/moon system viewed from directly above the north pole by a non-rotating observer. From this viewpoint, the earth is rotating anticlockwise at approximately 15 deg per hour. The moon's orbit is prograde, i.e. it orbits the earth in the same anticlockwise direction at approximately 0.5 degrees per hour. Now let's get the observer to rotate anticlockwise at 0.5 degrees per hour to match the moon's rotation. The moon appears to stand still. What's happened to the earth's apparent rotation? The observer is now rotating in the same direction, so the earth will appear to be rotating slower - 14.5 degrees per hour. To make it appear as though the earth is stationary, the observer now needs to increase their anticlockwise rotation speed by another 14.5 degrees per hour, at which point the moon will appear to be rotating clockwise at 14.5 degrees per hour from this vantage point.

What we normally see then is the moon crossing the sky at 14.5 degrees per hour and the sun crossing the sky at 15 degrees per hour, so on an eclipse day, the moon rises first, the sun then rises and slowly catches the moon (at 0.5 degrees per hour), overtakes it and will then set before it.

To be a bit more precise, "fixed" stars cross the sky east to west at approximately 15.041 degrees per hour (360 degrees divided by the length of the sidereal day - about 23.94 hours), the sun crosses the sky at approximately 15 degrees per hour 360 / 24 hours) and the moon approximately 14.492 degrees per hour.

I've said approximately because orbits aren't perfectly circular, they are slightly elliptical and obey Kepler's laws which mean they speed up and slow down slightly as they orbit. That's why we have the brilliantly named "equation of time" which essentially gives a plus or minus figure to add to a sundial time at different times of the year to match the time from a watch.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 04:01:48 PM by robinofloxley »

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #133 on: May 23, 2019, 05:28:02 PM »
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?

Yes, and that is why everyday the Moon rises around 52 minutes and 44 seconds later on East.   If today you have a full moon exactly on top at midnight, tomorrow it will be at the same spot almost at 00:53am, next day at 1:45am, and so on.  The Earth's rotation must be subtracted from any calculation, this is why the best way is to consider the observer sit over the Sun and seeing it as the heliocentric system as it is.   When looking from the Sun, doesn't matter if the Earth is rotating or not, the Moon will be orbiting Earth once per 27.3 days Earth's eastward direction, it WILL produce a project a conical shadow with apex at 380,000km, if the shadow hits Earth we call it solar eclipse, it will move eastward, no matter if the Earth is rotating or not. 

By the unquestionable fact Earth rotates 15°/h, and the Moon orbital speed of 27.3 days is 1022m/s, its projected shadow speed is always faster (eastward) than Earth's surface speed (463m/s on Equator line), depending on where the umbra hits Earth, a fixed observer on Earth could be under umbra for no more than 7 minutes and 32 seconds.

FE rely on a fixed huge Earth and small Sun/Moon rotating above. 

The smaller Umbra reported on RE was 120km in diameter, on FE it will create a problem as I reported in another post including formulas.  As the FE Sun and FE Moon has only 48km in diameter and the Sun is 4800km of altitude, the Moon creating the total eclipse must be significative lower than the Sun to projects a 120km umbra total shadow, also the Moon must be larger than 48km in diameter.  The final formula I calculated was "D*0.015 + 48km", where "D"  is the Moon's distance down below from the Sun in kilometers.  The Moon must have 48km plus 15 meters per kilometer far from the Sun, and it can not be very close to the Sun since its shadow (umbra) would cover the entire FE below, not only a spot. 

The formula is linear if a little away from the Sun. If the Moon is 4800km down from the Sun, it will on the Earth's ground, so, it needs to be 120km in diameter to cast a 120km diameter shadow, 4800*0.015+48 = 120. 

Worse, FE would have a solar eclipse every 27.3 days, since there is no way for the Moon closer and lower than the Sun to project its shadow out of FE, it will hit Earth down below - remember, FE is much larger than Sun/Moon. FE is 40 thousand kilometers in diameter, Sun/Moon is only 48 kilometers in diameter and only 8.33% of FE diameter in altitude.  I will produce a model with a graph showing how far horizontally and vertically the Moon from the Sun can be in order to still projecting its shadow over FE, of course it would happen every 27.3 days with low nodal lines, but in real world it is not like that. I would love to read FE optical math details about that. 

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #134 on: May 23, 2019, 05:35:42 PM »
Since the daily observed motion east to west across the sky is pretty much (well no actually) entirely due to the Earths rotation, you would expect that the rate of movement would be essentially the same.  You are stating a difference of .5 degrees or 30 arc seconds. That for me is very similar so I would certainly agree with that. if anything a half degree difference in an hour is a tad on the generous side.
What I was trying to get at is that the moon's orbit around the earth is completely independent of the earth's rotation.  That is, if we were to magically stop the rotation of the earth, the sun would appear to stand still in the sky, but the moon would still cross the sky at a rate of about .5 degree per hour.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #135 on: May 23, 2019, 05:59:48 PM »
What I was trying to get at is that the moon's orbit around the earth is completely independent of the earth's rotation.  That is, if we were to magically stop the rotation of the earth, the sun would appear to stand still in the sky, but the moon would still cross the sky at a rate of about .5 degree per hour.

Exactly, what I post previously.  Earth's rotation has nothing to do with the Moon's conical shadow projection path and eastward direction over Earth during an eclipse.  Earth's rotation only changes where (observers) physically the umbra hits and exposure time.

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #136 on: May 23, 2019, 06:15:01 PM »
Well I think we all know where we are at on this topic now.

What's happened to our OP? He seems to have gone strangely quiet all of a sudden. No feedback from the comments presented?

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #137 on: May 23, 2019, 06:33:45 PM »
You keep on using my diagrams but you keep ignoring the bit of my email where I explained that in real life the moon is a lot further away.
Why do you keep doing that?

Because Tom clearly doesn't understand how a diagram work. Guys let's address this elephant in the room, this is what Tom believes how an eclipse could work on FE:

Draw a diagram. I can see how this might work on a Flat Earth model where both the Sun and Moon are in motion:



Do you see how childish is that? On one side there's great science divulgation, on the other one a person who believes that two small spheres hovering over us could create eclipses like in his diagram!

Adding to that there's a communication problem, Tom doesn't interact with anyone (Tumeni and ICanScienceThat), apparently just trying to mess with words and minor details.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 06:42:55 PM by Bikini Polaris »
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these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #138 on: May 23, 2019, 06:49:35 PM »
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?

Fine, but the Moon's shadow has no orbital nor angular movement around the Earth. You cannot compare angular speeds of Earth and Moon to arrive at any conclusion about the shadow.

I refer you back to all my earlier posts, in sequence.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Macarios

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #139 on: May 23, 2019, 07:22:45 PM »
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?

If Sun overtakes on their apparent travel towards west, can Moon be faster than Sun? Or Moon travels 14.5 degrees per hour and not 15.5? :)