Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #100 on: May 22, 2019, 05:29:27 PM »
The above sources say that the Moon moves slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it.

If the Moon moved faster than the Sun in the sky then it should set earlier every day, not later every day.

The illustrations showing the Moon moving faster than the Sun in the sky appears to be incorrect. If the Moon were moving slower than the Sun in the illustration it should be intersecting it from the opposite direction in the illustration when it intersects those rays, which messes up the argument put forward. Now the shadow is moving in the wrong direction.
The illustrations are showing only the motion of the moon in relation to the sun. In reality the sun is moving behind the moon during an eclipse rather than the moon moving in front of the sun (if we're talking speed differential across the sky, the effect is the same visually) Perspective, perspective, perspective.

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #101 on: May 22, 2019, 05:31:29 PM »
Quote
The above sources say that the Moon moves slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it.
The Moon moves eastwards on the sky (relative to the stars) by several degrees each day Tom. The Suns eastwards motion against the stars is much slower. 

As I said in my first post the Moon completes one circuit of the sky each month during the course of its orbit around the Earth. 

The Sun meanwhile completes one circuit of the sky during the course of one year. That's because the Suns motion around the sky is due to the Earth orbiting it. So consequently the Sun moves eastwards relative to the stars much less each day.

The daily observed east to west motion of the Sun and Moon is purely down to the Earths rotation and a completely separate thing.  Simple observation of the sky shows you all this. You don't need any other 'sources'.

Sorry CS, it is the Moon moving across (and in front of) the Sun that causes the eclipse.  Not the Sun moving behind the Moon. But I know what you mean.  Technically a solar eclipse is actually an occultation of the Sun by the Moon.

https://augusteclipse.com/viewing/what-happens-during-an-eclipse/
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 05:38:34 PM by tellytubby »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2019, 05:39:50 PM »
Quote from: Curious Squirrel
The illustrations are showing only the motion of the moon in relation to the sun. In reality the sun is moving behind the moon during an eclipse rather than the moon moving in front of the sun (if we're talking speed differential across the sky, the effect is the same visually) Perspective, perspective, perspective.

Really? How does it work? If the Sun is outrunning the Moon rather than the Moon outrunning the sun then the scene is reversed:

This:


Becomes this:



Now the shadow is moving in the wrong direction.

Please provide the proper diagram if this one is wrong.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 05:50:23 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2019, 05:47:33 PM »
Quote from: Curious Squirrel
The illustrations are showing only the motion of the moon in relation to the sun. In reality the sun is moving behind the moon during an eclipse rather than the moon moving in front of the sun (if we're talking speed differential across the sky, the effect is the same visually) Perspective, perspective, perspective.

Really? How does it work? If the Sun is outrunning the Moon rather than the Moon outrunning the sun then the scene is reversed:

This:


Becomes this:



Now the shadow is moving in the wrong direction.

Please provide the proper diagram if this one is wrong.
The diagram is correct. It's just showing what happens from the sun perspective rather than the Earth perspective. Essentially.

Here is the scene watching from Earth with our perspective locked to the moon.


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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2019, 05:58:01 PM »
So what's going on? Does the Moon appear to move faster than the Sun in the sky or slower than the Sun?

You answered this already yourself, with the T&D animation you posted.

They both move across an observer's sky from East to West, the Moon slower than the Sun, so the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is West to East, which, coincidentally, corresponds with the direction of the Moon's shadow.

No?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2019, 06:00:40 PM »
The diagram is correct. It's just showing what happens from the sun perspective rather than the Earth perspective. Essentially.

If the diagram is correct then it is showing the Moon overtake the Sun. Look at steps 1, 2 and 3:




Quote
Here is the scene watching from Earth with our perspective locked to the moon.


Presuming that everything is traveling leftwards like the other image, your illustration has the Moon traveling faster than the Sun. The opposite is true. If the Sun is traveling faster across the sky than the Moon then the Moon can never catch up to it.

Try to outrun a car traveling at 60 MPH with a bicycle traveling at 20 MPH. Not possible.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 07:04:42 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2019, 06:03:04 PM »
The above sources say that the Moon moves slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it.

- - Correct, so with both Moon and Sun moving E to W in the observer's sky, and the Moon moving slower than the Sun, the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the shadow direction over the Earth

If the Moon were moving slower than the Sun in the illustration it should be intersecting it from the opposite direction in the illustration when it intersects those rays, which is contradictory to the argument put forward.

Already addressed in your post of the T&D animation and my response to it.

Could I persuade you to revisit #33 thru #36 and actually answer the questions I put to you?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 06:06:57 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2019, 06:08:40 PM »
Tom, from which perspective would you like to see a diagram?

From the viewpoint of the observer on Earth?
A top-down view of the Earth/Moon system?
From the viewpoint of an observer outwith the system, with back to / facing the Sun?

Tell us how you want it diagrammed, which way would help you understand it best.
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2019, 06:41:33 PM »
How many times do I have to say?

Moon: 360 degrees of sky over 27.3 days = 13.2 degrees eastwards (w.r.t to the stars) per day

Sun: 360 degrees of sky over 365 days = 0.9 degrees eastwards (w.r.t the stars) per day.

The east to west motion is like ovetaking a slower moving car from another car. The slower car appears to be moving backwards to the observer in the faster car.  That is just perspective.  Only in this case there are two other cars, the Sun and Moon. The more distant car (the Sun) seems to be moving slower than the nearer one.

Another factor that influences the period between Moon rise and Moon set is its declination. The Sun is now well to the north of the ecliptic so there is a longer period between Sun rise and Sun set. When the Moon is new it lies in line with the Sun so the rise and set time of the Moon will be the same as the rising and setting time of the Sun. That is true at any time of year. However when the Moon is full at this time of year it will be near its southern limit of its distance from the ecliptic and so there will be a much shorter period between Moon rise and Moon set.  Just like the days are much shorter in the northern hemisphere during winter.

So in this sense the time lapse between Moonrise and Moonset and Sunrise and Sunset depends on the Moons and the Suns  respective declination.  Today for example you will note that the Moons declination is in the order of -22 degrees while the Suns declination is +20 degrees. So in summary the period between the rising and setting of the Sun and Moon will vary with their respective distance north or south of the ecliptic.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 07:07:21 PM by tellytubby »

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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #109 on: May 22, 2019, 06:48:31 PM »
This is a pretty cool video.  In the comments he does explain that he could not make the sun to scale for one main reason:

"Unfortunately I did have to re-scale the sun to fit the diameter of my spotlight as the scaled sun would have been approx 4.35 meters diameter and a distance of 469 meters."

« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 07:02:35 PM by Bad Puppy »
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #110 on: May 22, 2019, 07:03:16 PM »
Quote
Here is the scene watching from Earth with our perspective locked to the moon.


Presuming that everything is traveling leftwards like the other image, your illustration has the Moon traveling faster than the Sun. If the Sun is traveling faster across the sky than the Moon then the Moon can never catch up to it.

Try to outrun a car traveling at 60 MPH with a bicycle traveling at 20 MPH. Not possible.
Everything is moving right, because right is West. Just as though you were watching the eclipse from Earth. The sun overtakes the moon, just as I said above. The moon starts blocking the sun starting on the West side of it, and thus the shadow travels West-to-East, just as is observed despite both objects rising in the East and setting in the West. The moon finishes its journey in the sky slower/later than the sun so it sets later every night than the night before. Voila.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #111 on: May 22, 2019, 07:24:36 PM »
Draw a diagram. I can see how this might work on a Flat Earth model where both the Sun and Moon are in motion:



-Both the Moon and the Sun are traveling Westwards. They both set in the West.
-The Sun is traveling faster than the Moon in the sky.
-The shadow is traveling from the West Coast to the East Coast.

But the Round Earth model seems to have issues. The diagrams provided have the Moon outrunning the Sun:



But we know that the Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot overtake it.

Please show us how your perspective magic works.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 07:37:06 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2019, 07:31:06 PM »
Obviously Tom you want the flat Earth interpretation to work because you are a flat Earth believer. That goes without saying, as does my expectation that you will dismiss the round Earth version regardless of how I explain to you what is going on.


Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2019, 07:34:02 PM »
Tom did you watch the video? The guy makes a physical model of it. In particular, I'd suggest the last 3rd. This makes it VERY clear.

You simply cannot watch that video and then expect us to believe you think it can't work. He literally shows it working.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2019, 07:49:01 PM »
Tom did you watch the video? The guy makes a physical model of it. In particular, I'd suggest the last 3rd. This makes it VERY clear.

You simply cannot watch that video and then expect us to believe you think it can't work. He literally shows it working.

It does not explain it. He shows the same thing that the diagram we are discussing shows, except from the viewpoint of the Sun:



He is moving the Moon in the video to overtake the Sun.

This the the same as the diagram that was presented to us with the Moon overtaking the Sun:



Compare the two images. It's the same positioning, except that the camera is from the Sun's viewpoint. It's the same explanation, and therefore has the same problems.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 07:54:51 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2019, 07:54:29 PM »
Tom did you watch the video? The guy makes a physical model of it. In particular, I'd suggest the last 3rd. This makes it VERY clear.

You simply cannot watch that video and then expect us to believe you think it can't work. He literally shows it working.

It does not explain it. He shows the same thing that the diagram shows, except from the viewpoint of the sun:



He is moving the Moon in the video to overtake the Sun.
Yes, he's moving the earth 15 degrees per hour and the moon .5 degree per hour to show that the earth has a faster rotational speed than the moon, but the moon's shadow has a faster linear speed than the earth's rotation. 
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2019, 08:02:47 PM »
He rotated the Earth 15 degrees per "hour". That's the agreed upon rate. He moved the Moon through it's orbit at 0.5 degrees per "hour". That's about right for the Moon's orbital speed, right?
Shadow moved as predicted.

So what are these "problems" you imagine could somehow exist with this? He made a scale model of the Earth and Moon and moved them at the appropriate rates. Are you suggesting he did not?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2019, 08:07:56 PM »
He rotated the Earth 15 degrees per "hour". That's the agreed upon rate. He moved the Moon through it's orbit at 0.5 degrees per "hour". That's about right for the Moon's orbital speed, right?
Shadow moved as predicted.

So what are these "problems" you imagine could somehow exist with this? He made a scale model of the Earth and Moon and moved them at the appropriate rates. Are you suggesting he did not?

He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.

It doesn't matter if the Earth is spinning at 0 miles per hour or 1,000,000 miles per hour. What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 08:12:45 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2019, 08:18:28 PM »
This became an endless discussion about A video. Any discussion based on an observer on Earth is prone to a lot of confusion, since Earth is rotating, Moon is orbiting.  The correct way is to sit the observer on the Sun and think about the real think, heliocentric model.

I think the topic is related to the OP stating the solar eclipse shadow path moving in wrong direction, and that was already clarified, indeed it moves eastward on Earth if a little bit far from the poles.  Is there any doubt about it?

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2019, 08:31:04 PM »
He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.
No, he has the sun stationary because it's the rotation of the earth that causes the sun to appear to move across the sky.

It doesn't matter if the Earth is spinning at 0 miles per hour or 1,000,000 miles per hour. What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.
Tom, this is why we keep asking you to do the math and to do it correctly.  I admit that this can be somewhat counterintuitive but there is more going on than what we observe.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.