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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #80 on: May 20, 2019, 10:01:09 PM »
Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth

Yep, did that for you. What did you make of it?

Well, dunno about Tom, but I think you're showing actual not apparent paths...

Are you aiming for a top-down view?
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #81 on: May 20, 2019, 10:05:46 PM »
Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth

Yep, did that for you. What did you make of it?

Well, dunno about Tom, but I think you're showing actual not apparent paths...

Are you aiming for a top-down view?

Yes, top down. Apparent in the sense that the Earth is apparently stationary and I have the sun and moon (apparently) moving around it. It made sense to me when I drew it  :)

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #82 on: May 20, 2019, 10:12:10 PM »
Yes, top down. Apparent in the sense that the Earth is apparently stationary and I have the sun and moon (apparently) moving around it.

Shouldn't S1 and M1 be at the top, then, moving down to S2 and M2, with the eclipse shadow path moving up?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #83 on: May 20, 2019, 10:24:44 PM »
Yes, top down. Apparent in the sense that the Earth is apparently stationary and I have the sun and moon (apparently) moving around it.

Shouldn't S1 and M1 be at the top, then, moving down to S2 and M2, with the eclipse shadow path moving up?

Yep, you're right, since I answered "top down". If I'd said bottom up (i.e. looking down on the south pole rather than the north), then the diagram would be correct. The basic point though is to show you can have the sun and moon travelling the same way and still produce an eclipse travelling in the opposite direction. All it takes is for the sun (almost exactly 15 deg/hour across the sky) to be travelling faster than the moon (on average, around 14.5 deg/hour across the sky) to guarantee (as markjo points out) that the eclipse will travel in the opposite direction.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #84 on: May 20, 2019, 10:27:16 PM »
Nice paradox. Thanks guys for the explainations :) Basically, If we could perceive the movement of the Moon looking at it with a telescope with a point of reference (like the stars in the background), we'd see it going from West to East. Put another way, take a picture of the Moon today at 1:00, and another picture tomorrow at 1:00, and you'll see how far the Moon has gone from West to East in 24 hours.

Stated in a bullet list form:

- Earth rotates counterclockwise
- Moon rotates around Earth from West to East (counter clockwise)
but
- Angular speed of Earth >> Angular speed of Moon => Moon looks like going from East to West
however
- Actual very high speed of Moon => Eclipse does follow the actual West to East Moon path

It's pretty neat, but overall I think the graphical representation of the model is needed for visualizing it. And with all those elements to be considered at the same time, I can see it easy to mess the discussion.

Also, hopefully I capture Tumeni's points, when a time lapse video of an eclipse is seen, the Moon is going from West to East:



I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

Even if all REs here would figure out the model and put down calendar predictions, Rowbotham would step in saying "just numbers that happen to work" as he does in ENAG :)

@robinofloxley, everything is seen from my vantage position 8)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 10:42:29 AM by Bikini Polaris »
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #85 on: May 20, 2019, 10:32:00 PM »
Stated in a bullet list form:

- Earth rotates counterclockwise
- Moon rotates around Earth from West to East (counter clockwise)
but
- Angular speed of Earth >> Angular speed of Moon => Moon looks like going from East to West
however
- Actual very high speed of Moon => Eclipse does follow the actual West to East Moon path

Additional salient points -
The Moon's shadow has no angular speed around the Earth, whereas the Moon itself does.
The Moon's linear speed, at the time its shadow crosses the space where Earth may or may not be, is higher than the speed of any point on Earth's surface.

See my posts above.
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Offline model 29

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2019, 03:59:46 AM »
Tom Bishop, why do you continue to fail at understanding this topic?

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2019, 12:48:17 PM »
The Moon travels from East to West across the face of the Sun, not West to East. See the first video in the timeanddate.com link.

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

Nope, as ICanScienceThat said, in the video Moon is going from right to left w.r.t. a viewer staring at the Sun.

I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the Earth's surface is rotating faster than the Moon's rotation around the Earth, allowing the Moon to set in the West to all observers.

We are on the surface of the Moon when the Sun and Moon are lined up exactly with the Earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the Earth rotating.



North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.

Suppose a viewer from earth throw a laser ray to space, straight up vertical in the sky, without moving. If that ray hits the moon, it will run incredibly fast on its surface and will be seen, from a viewer on the Moon, as going from left to right. This is how the Moon is seen rising East and setting West.

Suppose you're on the Moon, in the center of the face facing the earth, and you're looking precisely in a direction parallel to sun rays (say that one sun ray connecting the sun and the earth) with a binocular limiting your view. To do so, your head will be slowly rotating clockwise. When you'll briefly see earth (once every 28 days), you'll see it going from right to left, as it was rising from west and setting to east. This is reflected on how we see the shadow due to eclipse (as Tumeni well explained)

Said in another way. The Moon surely see earth rotating, even if its speed is faster than earth's rotation. But for an observer on the Moon that looks only at a tiny part of the sky, following a straight direction (which requires uim to constantly move) will see Earth rising from West to East, once each 28 days.

The two viewers are not symmetric w.r.t. each others, they're actually contrained to experience the system in different ways, so their views aren't contradiction. They are different p.o.v.s ;)

If the Moon had a very long paint brush reaching to the Earth, it would be painting a line which travels Westwards. So the shadow must be traveling to the West.

It depends. If the brush on the Moon is parallel to the sun rays, it will paint earth once each 28 days, going from West to East. If the brush is perpendicular in the center of the face facing earth, than, it will keep painting earth 24/7, from East to West

----- This part can be skipped

Now just for fun imagine that the Moon had a superfast speed and that, everything else being equal, it was rotating around you (humans on earth) in half day (instead of 28 days, wow!). Then:

- it would be seen rising West and setting East
- its daily eclipse shadow would be seen going from west to east too

Then suppose a veeeery slow Moon, taking 1000 years rotating around earth.

- it would be seen rising East and setting West
- its eclipse shadow would still go from west to east, but on the ground it would be experienced as going from East to West

Finally, suppose the Moon had exactly the same angular speed of earth. This is again a very fast Moon.

- It would always be in a fixed position in earth's sky, never rising or setting.
- even though fixed, its motion w.r.t. the sun in the sky would be from West to East.

The b.e.p. occurs when the Moon goes as fast as a person on the Earth. In that case the shadow would be stationary on the ground.

So, in conclusions, the rising/setting direction is entirely due to the difference in angular speed. Instead, the shadow direction is dependent on the speed of the Moon. But these cases are quite simplifying the relative positions of the three bodies.



« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 04:04:21 PM by Bikini Polaris »
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2019, 01:11:42 PM »
I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the Earth's surface is rotating faster than the Moon's rotation around the Earth, allowing the Moon to set in the West to all observers.

We are on the surface of the Moon when the Sun and Moon are lined up exactly with the Earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the Earth rotating.



North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.
Tom, where would the sun and moon be in that animation during a solar eclipse?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2019, 02:42:47 PM »
I've had a go at some diagrams. As has been stated, the shadow moves from West to East because the moons velocity is greater than the speed the earth spins at.
So if Tom is at T and the shadow is at S in these diagrams.
Tom starts in the sunlight, the shadow is the West of him.
By the time T has moved one 'spoke' the moon has moved 2 so Tom is now in the shadow, enjoying an eclipse.
By the time T has moved another 'spoke' the moon has moved another 2 so the shadow is now to the East of him.
So the shadow moves West to East:



So why does the moon set in the West? Because in the above diagram although it illustrates the principle, the moon is drawn much too close.
In reality it's this far away:



So while it takes the earth only 24 hours to rotate once, the moon takes 28 days to go around it. In terms of its velocity, it's going faster - and that's what determines the direction of the shadow - in terms of angular velocity it's going much more slowly, that's what determines where we see it set.

Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2019, 03:39:28 PM »
"Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?"
I was going to ask the same thing...
Can we all agree that the eclipse DID happen exactly as described? Thousands of people saw this. Many of them took video of the event. The shadow really did travel west-to-east? The timing was precisely what had been predicted? The Moon really did block out the Sun, exactly as portrayed in the video? Right?
Well then whatever shape the Earth is, all this happened.
I'm going to suggest that the Moon really did pass in front of the Sun and that's what the world saw. Tom, do you propose this was something else? Is there some other geometry you believe to be at work in which the Moon blocks the light from the Sun in this particular West-to-East pattern moving over the surface of the Earth?

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2019, 04:00:31 PM »
Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?
"Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?"
I was going to ask the same thing...
Can we all agree that the eclipse DID happen exactly as described? Thousands of people saw this. Many of them took video of the event. The shadow really did travel west-to-east? The timing was precisely what had been predicted? The Moon really did block out the Sun, exactly as portrayed in the video? Right?
Well then whatever shape the Earth is, all this happened.
I'm going to suggest that the Moon really did pass in front of the Sun and that's what the world saw. Tom, do you propose this was something else? Is there some other geometry you believe to be at work in which the Moon blocks the light from the Sun in this particular West-to-East pattern moving over the surface of the Earth?

I join the crowd here in this request. I'm puzzled by the wiki as it states that both the Sun and the Moon are two spheres with 32-miles of diameter,  hovering 3000 miles over us. In that case the shadow of the Moon would go from West to East following the same path as the Moon. So empirical data (that you agree upon) are disproving this "two balls over us" statement.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 04:02:42 PM by Bikini Polaris »
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2019, 04:44:05 PM »
I join the crowd here in this request. I'm puzzled by the wiki as it states that both the Sun and the Moon are two spheres with 32-miles of diameter,  hovering 3000 miles over us. In that case the shadow of the Moon would go from West to East following the same path as the Moon. So empirical data (that you agree upon) are disproving this "two balls over us" statement.
As has been mentioned before, (from a geocentric POV) the sun and moon both travel from east to west, so the idea of the eclipse shadow moving from west to east is rather counterintuitive.  However, the fact that the sun and moon are moving at different speeds is why the shadow appears to move the "wrong way."  This is true for both RET and FET.  However, it seems that the FE sun would have to move faster than the FE moon for the same effect to occur on a flat earth.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2019, 08:35:32 PM »
I join the crowd here in this request. I'm puzzled by the wiki as it states that both the Sun and the Moon are two spheres with 32-miles of diameter,  hovering 3000 miles over us. In that case the shadow of the Moon would go from West to East following the same path as the Moon. So empirical data (that you agree upon) are disproving this "two balls over us" statement.
As has been mentioned before, (from a geocentric POV) the sun and moon both travel from east to west, so the idea of the eclipse shadow moving from west to east is rather counterintuitive.  However, the fact that the sun and moon are moving at different speeds is why the shadow appears to move the "wrong way."  This is true for both RET and FET.  However, it seems that the FE sun would have to move faster than the FE moon for the same effect to occur on a flat earth.

Wow, I didn't think about that, thanks. Somehow my "Zetetic-sense" assumed, from the Eclipse videos, that the Moon moved faster than the Sun. But who knows, in FE everything is possible.

Another couple of questions:

1 - How can the totality shadow of the eclipse be so small, compared to the FE fact that during an eclipse the Moon and the Sun must be close to each other? (From the videos they almost perfectly overlap) I'd expect the Moon to block the light for the most part of this planet.

2 - How can annular eclipses happen at all, since they have the same diameter?

Btw, now that I delved into the Eclipse topic, my cognitive dissonance about FEs is getting huge. There's no way there exists a planar model where one can explain eclipses with naiveties like those used to compute the Sun diameter as being 32 miles. I also noticed how suspiciously dismissive is Rowbotham about Solar Eclipses.

Guys, he's suckered you. He knows exactly how it works. He acts confused to make you guys jump around trying to answer his question while he continues to act like he doesn't get it.

Get serious here. When have you EVER heard a flat Earther talk about the speed of the Earth's rotation as a rotational speed? They ALWAYS quote it by the linear speed. And yet, here we have Tom who begins with a given linear speed and converts that into a rotational speed to compare it to the speed of the Earth. And we're supposed to believe that this is anything other than absolutely on purpose? Get real.

Tom will never concede that you have explained the situation. No matter what. This is not the behavior of a genuine truth seeker. Tom is doing an act. I could only guess why, but I'm quite convinced he does it on purpose.

Is this topic started by Tom a word to the wise pointing the obvious fact that this whole website is a joke?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 08:41:47 PM by Bikini Polaris »
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2019, 08:23:24 AM »
The Moon orbits the Earth at an average distance of 384,400km or 238,855 miles. That means the orbital distance is the circumference of its orbit which by maths gives us 1,500,770 miles give or take a fifth of a mile.

Moons orbital period is 27.32 days so D/T gives us 62,532 miles per day.  24hr in a day so 62,532/24 means orbital speed (average) is 2,606 mph. That compares to just over 1000mph at maximum (equatorial) for the Earths rotation. Finally the Earths orbital speed around the Sun is 66,000mph.

As seen from Earth the Moon moves east against the stars as the phases cycle first waxes (new Moon to full Moon) and then wanes (full Moon back to new Moon) so the Moon orbital direction is from west to east. The Earths physical rotation direction is also west to east (prograde). The combined effect of the Earths rotation speed and the Moons distance from us means that the Moons apparent daily motion across the sky is east to west.  You have to compare its position against the stars to notice the west to east motion as well.

Again as seen from Earth, the Sun also moves east to west across the sky due to the Earths rotation effect. However the Suns motion against the stars is also west to east as a result of the Earth orbit. The much greater distance of the Sun compared to the Moon (400 times greater) means that a complete circuit of the sky (relative to the stars) takes a lot longer.

So there are two motions involved. The daily motion due to the Earths rotation which makes both the Sun and Moon move across the sky from east to west (Earths rotation is west to east) and there is also the motion against the stars which is more subtle and is much quicker for the Moon than it is for the Sun because the Moon is much nearer.

Going back to your original query Tom, the Moons shadow (that's what causes the eclipse) will first be visible on the west coast because the Moon's disk in the sky approaches the Sun from the western side (or from the right as we look at it) and then moves eastwards across the Suns disk. Remember the Moon is moving eastwards or right to left relative to the Sun by several degrees each day. So observers on the western end of the eclipse track will see it first while the observers on the eastern side will be the last to see it.  It's quite simple really.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 03:06:50 PM by tellytubby »

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2019, 08:55:37 AM »
Tom, the next time there is a solar eclipse, get your self a welding helmet with a shade 11 or 12 lens and watch the sun and you will see the moon slide in front of it in the same direction as the shadow is moving across the Earth. This will reveal real time evidence on why the shadow goes west to east, because the moon moves across the Sun/Earth line of sight in that direction.  You will then see the moon and sun continue to set in the west. There is no further complication needed than just watching it happen.
It could be round or flat, but round has really been working out so much better for us.

Perhaps it would be better to say the Earth is "pointy".

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2019, 04:15:46 PM »
Tom is just playing with words and distorting reality.
He knows very well how this works, if he does not I would be very surprised.
If I am a car manufacturer, I need to understand very well the guts of my competitor's cars, right?

Sun and Moon setting in the West is a play of words caused by Earth's rotation.
When Tom says the Moon sets on the West, he is making people think the Moon is actually moving to the West, it is a trick of words, it does not.
It is the same as a passenger in a running car saying the trees are moving backwards.

1.) Earth spins towards East, CCW as seen by the North Pole.

2.) Moon orbits Earth also towards East, but it takes 27.3 days for a full orbit, so its orbital movement is 27.3 times slower than Earth's rotation.  From an observer on Earth it seems the Moon moves to the West, it is not true for an observer on Polaris.

3.) Taking 27.3 days for a full orbit, based on its orbital radius its orbital speed is on average 1022 m/s.

4.) An observer at the Sun watching Earth with North Pole up, could see the Moon crossing in front, above or below the Earth's face (diameter distance) to the right with certain angle, in 12481 seconds, 3.46h.  It would take another 27.3 (actually synodic 29.5) days for that to repeat.

5.) Due the angles alignment of Sun, Moon and Earth, the Moon shadow could be cast over Earth or projected lost to space.

6.) On average, the shadow cone has the apex at 380,000km from the Moon.  As the Moon is distancing from Earth year after year, at some point in the future the distance to Earth will be longer than the apex and there will be no more total solar eclipses, no more Umbra.

Unquestionably, solar eclipses Umbra and Penumbra are projected Eastward on Earth.
Tom knows all of this in details.
It is known that in war (common to see here), if your enemy is stronger, just confuse them.


 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #97 on: May 22, 2019, 05:00:30 PM »
I've had a go at some diagrams. As has been stated, the shadow moves from West to East because the moons velocity is greater than the speed the earth spins at.
So if Tom is at T and the shadow is at S in these diagrams.
Tom starts in the sunlight, the shadow is the West of him.
By the time T has moved one 'spoke' the moon has moved 2 so Tom is now in the shadow, enjoying an eclipse.
By the time T has moved another 'spoke' the moon has moved another 2 so the shadow is now to the East of him.
So the shadow moves West to East:



So why does the moon set in the West? Because in the above diagram although it illustrates the principle, the moon is drawn much too close.
In reality it's this far away:



So while it takes the earth only 24 hours to rotate once, the moon takes 28 days to go around it. In terms of its velocity, it's going faster - and that's what determines the direction of the shadow - in terms of angular velocity it's going much more slowly, that's what determines where we see it set.

Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?

According to this explanation I would see the Moon overtake the Sun. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in my sky.

Yet this is not what we observe. The Moon rises and sets 50 minutes later every day. it does not set not rise and set earlier every day.

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/education/ssrgtextbook/articles/moonphas.htm

"Moon rise occurs about 50 minutes later every day."

http://www.csun.edu/~physics/department_guide/old%20docs/S11/Lab_6_Starry%20Night-Moon%20phases.pdf

"The moon sets approximately 50 minutes later each night."

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2005HiA....13.1055F

"The way in which pre-Hispanic people predicted the eclipses by carefully observing the Sun's and Moon's trajectories can be explained to students by telling them that since the paths of the sun and moon form a 5 degree angle, and their apparent motion is different, the moon moves slower, one can infer when the trajectories will cross."

http://www.therevival.co.uk/article/science-moon-sighting

"the moon moves slower than the sun appears to move"

StraightDope:

"Q: Does the moon move faster than the sun [across the sky]?

A: The Moon moves slower across the sky."

Our FAQ also has the Moon moving slower than the sun:



Caption "The lunar rotation cycle is about 347.81°/day"

So what's going on? Does the Moon appear to move faster than the Sun in the sky or slower than the Sun?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 05:05:46 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2019, 05:11:31 PM »
How long the Sun and Moon remain visible in the sky and the difference in Moon setting times from day to day are irrelevant in the current context Tom.  It is the motion of the Moon in relation to the Sun on the sky which is what matters here. The Moon is the fastest moving of all the celestial bodies because it is the closest.

I explained fully in my previous post why the eclipse track starts to the west and ends at its eastern end but that seems to be something you have overlooked. If you want an answer to your question, read my previous post because I have provided one.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #99 on: May 22, 2019, 05:24:54 PM »
The above sources say that the Moon moves slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it.

If the Moon moved faster than the Sun in the sky then it should set earlier every day, not later every day.

If the Moon were moving slower than the Sun in the illustration it should be intersecting it from the opposite direction in the illustration when it intersects those rays, which is contradictory to the argument put forward.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 05:30:09 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy