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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2019, 06:54:14 AM »
That article doesn't say anything about these topics we are discussing. I want to know how the geometry of your model works in comparison to what we observe.

- - - Told you that


You need the Moon going west, so why do we see it starting on the east on the sun?

- - - Told you that, too.

If you guys can't explain it then you should abandon the thread.

Maybe you should address the questions I posed a few hours ago in order that I could guide you through my explanation of the geometry.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2019, 07:01:03 AM »
It's a simple geometric question. What's the problem?

- - - It's a simple explanation, which I've given you a couple of times already, what's the problem?


According to Tumeni/whoever, we can subtract the speed of the moon from the rotation of the earth and see that the moon's shadow is traveling from West to East at 1200 mph across the continental US.

- - - Again, NO. We subtract the speed of a point on the surface of the Earth from the speed of the Moon's shadow.

In which case, we get a scene like this:



- - - No, we do not. You've shown the Earth as un-moving. You need to show it rotating as the Moon passes between Sun and Earth

Yet the Moon does not cross in front of the Sun from West to East. It crosses in front of the Sun from East to West.

See the Aug 2017 Solar Eclipse in question: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The first video shows that the Moon travels from East to West across the Sun, not West to East.

There is a geometric issue with this explanation.

No, there is not an issue. The observer on the surface moves in a full circle once per day, the Moon completes its orbit once per 28 days. The Moon lags behind and hence appears to the observer to move in his sky from East to West, even though it actually moves West to East.

Once again, the Moon's shadow HAS NO ORBITAL MOVEMENT around the Earth. The Moon was seen on eclipse day to rise in the East and set in the West, but the shadow did not, because it exhibits different motion to the Moon. No orbit. No rotation. Simply a linear path across the space occupied by the Earth (or not)

This is how the shadow moves (WITHOUT showing how the Earth moves beneath it) - side to side across the Earth/Moon system, back and forth. Not around the Earth. Max speed in the middle, zero at each extremity. Again, refer back to posts around #33 - #36

« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 07:10:30 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2019, 07:03:25 AM »
Tom, could you address my questions in replies #33 thru #36, please?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2019, 07:06:42 AM »
Your geometry does not work. You have the moon eclipsing the sun, and outrunning it (above image) The moon is slower than the sun in the sky and falls behind it.

This is why the moon passes in front of the sun from the East to the West rather than from the West to the East that you are suggesting.

Your "the earth is rotating" suggestion does not explain why the Moon crosses in front of the sun from East to West. If the Moon is on the top of the image rather than the bottom and falls behind the Sun to travel from East to West then its shadow will start on the East side of the Earth to the West, which is incorrect and does not explain the path of the eclipse.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 07:11:44 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2019, 07:14:41 AM »
Here's a top-down view of the Moon's orbit, showing how the Moon's shadow behaves if the Earth does not get in the way (i.e. every month when there is no solar eclipse)



It moves back and forth in a repeating cycle. Bottom to top in 14 days, top down to bottom the other 14. First 14 days spans third quarter to first quarter through New Moon, second 14 runs from first quarter through Full Moon to third quarter

And here's how it looks when the Earth does get in the way.





Tom, do you agree that the shadow is not rotating around the Earth, even though the Moon is?

Yes/No?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 07:42:05 AM by Tumeni »
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Macarios

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2019, 07:37:13 AM »
Mean lunar orbital radius is 385 000 km, which gives 2 419 026 km of the orbit's circumference.
Moon's sidereal orbital time is 27.32 days.
Earth's diameter is 12 742 km.
While Earth's meridian travels from one side to another in 12 hours, Moon's shadow travels in 3.45 hours.

Moon's shadow gets to the other end 3.5 times faster than Earth's meridian.


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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2019, 07:37:47 AM »
Your geometry does not work.

- - - Yes, it does. I work it out, as many others have done, from first principles, and the textbook attributes of Earth and Moon, and it matches perfectly with what everyone saw on the day.



You have the moon eclipsing the sun, and outrunning it (above image) The moon is slower than the sun in the sky and falls behind it.

This is why the moon passes in front of the sun from the East to the West rather than from the West to the East that you are suggesting.

- - - You've subtly rephrased it, that's not what I said


Your "the earth is rotating" suggestion does not explain why the Moon crosses in front of the sun from East to West. If the Moon is on the top of the image rather than the bottom and falls behind the Sun to travel from East to West then its shadow will start on the East side of the Earth to the West, which is incorrect and does not explain the path of the eclipse.

You can talk all day about what the Moon is doing, but we're concerned with what its SHADOW is doing, and the shadow is exhibiting a different form of motion to the Moon's.

C'mon, address the questions in #33 to #36

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2019, 07:41:35 AM »

And, for Tom's benefit, the shadow follows lines parallel to, and between, the two grey lines. It does not follow the radial red line.
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2019, 08:01:42 AM »
How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?



- - - No, you have this backwards




See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

No, it starts on the Western edge of the Sun and moves to the Eastern. If you're looking South, as this animation does partway through, East is left, West is right.

The animation starts with both Sun and Moon in SSE, passing through S, to SW. Both objects do this. Both are moving Westward in the observer's sky, but the Moon is doing so slightly slower than the Sun is, so it has a net result of moving Eastward across the sun's face.      Which tallies with the Eastward direction of the shadow.

No?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 08:16:06 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2019, 08:32:36 AM »
Your geometry does not work.

- - - Yes, it does



You have the moon eclipsing the sun, and outrunning it (above image) The moon is slower than the sun in the sky and falls behind it.


- - - Both are moving from East to West in the observer's sky. If the Moon does this slower than the Sun, the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is Eastward, since the Sun is moving faster Westward than the Moon is



This is why the moon passes in front of the sun from the East to the West rather than from the West to the East that you are suggesting.

- - - Except it doesn't. The T&D animation you quoted shows it moving Eastward across the Sun


Your "the earth is rotating" suggestion does not explain why the Moon crosses in front of the sun from East to West. If the Moon is on the top of the image rather than the bottom and falls behind the Sun to travel from East to West then its shadow will start on the East side of the Earth to the West, which is incorrect and does not explain the path of the eclipse.

Again, the Moon crossed the Sun from West to East. This corresponded to the direction the shadow moved.
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2019, 06:54:11 PM »
Your geometry does not work. You have the moon eclipsing the sun, and outrunning it (above image) The moon is slower than the sun in the sky and falls behind it.

This is why the moon passes in front of the sun from the East to the West rather than from the West to the East that you are suggesting.

Your "the earth is rotating" suggestion does not explain why the Moon crosses in front of the sun from East to West. If the Moon is on the top of the image rather than the bottom and falls behind the Sun to travel from East to West then its shadow will start on the East side of the Earth to the West, which is incorrect and does not explain the path of the eclipse.
You are playing a game, you can easily refer to documentation printed and online.  'Testing' random people on a forum is not going to get you anywhere.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #71 on: May 20, 2019, 10:24:48 AM »
Help me understand the direction of the Solar Eclipse.

I'm a bit late to this party, but does this help?



Apparent path of sun is anticlockwise from S1 to S2. Apparent path of moon is anticlockwise from M1 to M2. Apparent path of eclipse is clockwise from E1 to E2. Observer standing at X.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #72 on: May 20, 2019, 03:51:23 PM »
Tom, are you still with us? Have you conceded the point?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #73 on: May 20, 2019, 04:38:11 PM »
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2019, 05:00:41 PM »
Tom, it's a real world observation that has been witnessed by countless people, so it needs a plausible explanation regardless of your preferred earth shape.  How would you explain it from a flat earth point of view?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2019, 05:06:21 PM »
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

Which one contradicts which?
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Offline Bad Puppy

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #76 on: May 20, 2019, 07:12:49 PM »
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

The irony in that statement is palpable.

Are you referring to the diagram which shows the sun moving relative to the observer?  The RE model is solid as have been the many explanations that you failed to understand.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2019, 08:29:13 PM »
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

Isn't it you guys who routinely dodge away from a question like this, citing multiple FE models which have not been decided upon / agreed upon yet ... ?
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2019, 09:51:35 PM »
No explanation to this issue has been posted.
No explanation to this issue which you understand has been posted.
Multiple people have explained this to you in different ways but here's another video which I don't think was posted previously.



Basically it's because the moon is moving faster than the surface of the earth. But, as the video explains, that doesn't means that the moon should set in the east because the angular velocity of the moon's orbit around the earth is much slower than the earth's rotation about it's axis.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2019, 09:56:39 PM »
I see multiple contradicting explanations.

Corrected that one for you.

You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

I think we're all in agreement, just different ways to explain the same basic idea, completely consistent, various posters trying to be helpful.

Help me understand the direction of the Solar Eclipse.

We're certainly trying to.  Hope you appreciate the effort.

Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth

Yep, did that for you. What did you make of it?

Simply put: both the sun and moon cross the sky from east to west, but the sun is moving faster than the moon.  If you want, you can do the math yourself to compare the speed of the earth's rotation to the speed of the moon as it orbits the earth.

Here you are stating what we see, not showing how it works geometrically in the Round Earth model to answer the East/West shadow path and setting direction question.

OK, so the diagram I posted earlier shows how it works geometrically. Happy?