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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2019, 11:03:16 PM »
Interesting, but you just posted an animation of a penumbra moving randomly around. The matter is not explained. I would suggest creating a diagram to explain the paradox with your model, keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

No explanation to this issue has been posted.

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2019, 11:03:53 PM »
Interesting, but you just posted a video of a penumbra randomly moving around. The matter is not explained. I would suggest creating a diagram to explain the paradox, keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

Umm, what's random about it?  And what's funny about your statement is that you've invented a paradox where none exists. A paradox for 1, as it were.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2019, 11:04:57 PM »
Interesting, but you just posted a video of a penumbra randomly moving around. The matter is not explained. I would suggest creating a diagram to explain the paradox, keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

Umm, what's random about it?  And what's funny about your statement is that you've invented a paradox where none exists. A paradox for 1, as it were.

Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth. It doesn't work.

If the best you can do is a NASA animation with odd geometry, then I am afraid there is nothing to discuss with you. You need to explain this.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2019, 11:07:37 PM »
You need to come up with a way to get the Moon to set in the West and for the shadow to travel from West to East.

The Earth is moving. I showed you a static graphic, not a motion picture.

The shadow moves from West to East for the reason I stated above. On the day of the eclipse, the Moon still moved across the sky as it normally does, setting in the West, but because the Moon's shadow does not share the angular motion of the Moon around Earth's centre, the shadow exhibited different behaviour. The approximate maths are above in my post.
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2019, 11:10:06 PM »
Interesting, but you just posted a video of a penumbra randomly moving around. The matter is not explained. I would suggest creating a diagram to explain the paradox, keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

Umm, what's random about it?  And what's funny about your statement is that you've invented a paradox where none exists. A paradox for 1, as it were.

Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth. It doesn't work.

If the best you can do is a NASA animation with odd geometry, then I am afraid there is nothing to discuss with you. You need to explain this.

You obviously didn't read the article I posted. If you really want to paint yourself into the corner of why eclipses blow up flat earth theory, so be it. You see, RE can predict the exact path of an eclipse for any point on earth down to the meter. Part of that pinpoint accurate location prediction is the fact that the earth is a sphere. Now let that soak in a smidge and go back to the article I posted. It's short.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2019, 11:10:53 PM »
If the Earth is rotating faster than the  Moon, leaving it behind, then the Moon will see the Earth rotating with the East Coast of the United States oncoming to it. And the shadow will begin in the East.



No, because the Moon's shadow DOES NOT ROTATE.

Comparison of rotational speed is misplaced because the Moon's shadow DOES NOT ROTATE around the Earth. The shadow does not exhibit the same behaviour as the Moon, so the shadow moves across the Earth's surface in a contrary motion to the Moon

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2019, 11:11:08 PM »
I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the Earth's surface is rotating faster than the Moon's rotation around the Earth, allowing the Moon to set in the West to all observers.

We are on the surface of the Moon when the Sun and Moon are lined up exactly with the Earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the Earth rotating.



North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 11:15:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2019, 11:16:02 PM »
I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the earth's surface is rotating faster than the moon's rotation around the Moon, allowing the Moon to set in the West.

We are on the surface of the moon when the Sun and Moon are line up exactly with the earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the earth rotating.



North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.

The linear speed of a point on the surface is less than 1000 mph approx., Eastward.
The speed of the Moon's shadow across this is 2200 mph approx., Eastward.

Net result = 2200 minus 1000 = (at least) 1200 mph Eastward.


"We are on the surface of the Moon when the Sun and Moon are lined up exactly with the Earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. "

This is not a single instant, it spans a number of hours. So the alignment changes over this time.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 11:19:08 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2019, 11:24:41 PM »
If the Earth is static in your image...
The earth isn't static.  It's rotating at 1000 mph.

If the Moon is moving faster or slower in relation to the Earth's surface, there is an issue either way.

If the Earth is rotating faster than the  Moon, leaving it behind, then the Moon will see the Earth rotating with the East Coast of the United States oncoming to it. And the shadow will begin in the East.


I think this is a really hard problem to visualise, so I whipped up an image to help. This is an incredibly exaggerated version of the globe description of an eclipse.
Here we have the Moon with a lower angular velocity than the Earth, but a larger linear velocity. Yellow lines represent the Sun, and the black box represents shaded region.
Hopefully you can see in my image that the shadow moves from west to east, and the Moon sets in the west. The Earth in my image is rotating towards the east.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2019, 11:30:57 PM »
keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

Please define this geometry.

The Earth moves, the Moon moves, yielding different lines with every passing instant. To what straight line do you refer?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2019, 11:32:04 PM »
I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the earth's surface is rotating faster than the moon's rotation around the Moon, allowing the Moon to set in the West.

We are on the surface of the moon when the Sun and Moon are line up exactly with the earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the earth rotating.



North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.

The linear speed of a point on the surface is less than 1000 mph approx., Eastward.
The speed of the Moon's shadow across this is 2200 mph approx., Eastward.

Look at your second assertion. Why would the shadow across the Moon be traveling Eastwards?

We have established that the Moon must be seeing the Earth turning in the way that it turns in the above animation so that it can set West for all observers. Correct?

If the Moon had a very long paint brush reaching to the Earth, it would be painting a line which travels Westwards. So the shadow must be traveling to the West.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 01:26:20 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2019, 11:34:54 PM »
Why would the speed of the shadow across the Moon traveling Eastwards?

I'm going to wait while you rephrase this in a grammatically-correct form.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2019, 11:41:38 PM »
We have established that the Moon must be seeing the Earth turning in the way that it turns in the above animation so that it can set West for all observers. Correct?

- - -   Yes, but we've also established that the Moon itself, and hence its shadow, is moving faster than any point on this surface. The Moon is not standing still, and neither is its shadow.

If the Moon had a very long paintbrush reaching to the Earth, it would be painting a line which travels Westwards.

- - -  No, it would not. The paintbrush is an extension of the line connecting Moon and Sun, as it must be if it follows the line of the Moon's shadow. This line will move at the speed of the Moon and of the Moon's shadow

So the shadow must be travelling to the West.

No.

Once again, the shadow is not stationary. It is moving Eastward, whether or not the Earth has got in its way, at around 2200mph. The fastest point on Earth's surface is moving at around 1000mph. Both Eastward.

Net result = 2200 minus 1000 = 1200 mph, still Eastward.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 11:49:20 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2019, 11:47:51 PM »
Tom, take a standard compact disc, a saucer, or a small plate, and a pen or pencil.

Roll the pencil across the CD from one side to the other, back to the start, and repeat, back and forth.

Do you agree that the speed of the pencil reduces to zero at the limits of its travel? i.e. that the speed is zero as it changes direction at each edge?
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2019, 12:07:19 AM »
Tom, are you familiar with a standard school protractor? A semi-circular piece of plastic, marked out with increments in degrees, over a span of 180 degrees?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protractor

Take one of these, trace a semi-circle around the curved edge, and mark out points at each 10 degree interval around the semi-circle. Draw a straight edge between 0 and 180.

Remove the protractor, and draw lines to connect each 10-degree point on the semi-circle to the straight edge, making a right-angle at each point where they meet the straight edge.

Do you agree, having done this, that the distances between each point on the straight edge vary?

That whilst the linear distance around the semi-circle is the same for each 10-degree arc, the linear distance on the straight edge differs for each?
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2019, 12:25:44 AM »
Why would the speed of the shadow across the Moon Earth be traveling Eastwards?

Because that's the direction the Moon is moving, and the shadow will go this way too. Look down upon the Earth/Moon system, the Moon is going anti-clockwise around the Earth, so, if you got between Sun and Earth, with your head above the plane of lunar orbit, your feet below, the Moon would move left to right across your field of view.

Same as if you had a clock that was running backward. Tilt the face back to place you below the 6, perfectly in line with the face, and the ends of the hands will, as they pass the 6, move from your left (9) to right (3)

If the Earth were not there, and you had a flat circle of paper where Earth should be, the shadow would go from left (West) to right (East), i.e. Eastward.

No?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 12:32:54 AM by Tumeni »
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2019, 12:51:09 AM »
We observe the Earth rotating.



North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

You would agree that in the standard globe model, where the Earth rotates once every 24 hours, that it is taking, in your animation, roughly 12 hours for a set point on the East coast of the USA to move from the far left side of this globe to the right, and another 12 for it to move, out of view here, from right to left.

Yes? No?

Would you also agree that standard texts show the diameter of the Earth as 7917.5 miles?

Yes? No?
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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2019, 12:53:08 AM »
Tom, just as an FYI, this is not uniquely an RE problem.  The apparent motions of the sun and moon are the same on a flat earth, so the exact same problem exists for FE solar eclipses.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2019, 02:10:55 AM »
Tumeni, you subtract the speed of the earth's rotation from the speed of the moon around the earth to say that the moon's shadow is traveling over the earth faster than the Earth's rotation. And that this shadow is traveling from West to East at a speed of about 1200mph to make the eclipse path from the west coast of the US to the east coast. The moon is passing in front of the sun at a speed of 1200mph to make the Eastwardly moving shadow which moves at that speed.

How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?

See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

If the Moon was passing by overhead West to East at 1200 miles per hour to make an eclipse path from West to East on the Earth's surface, then one is inclined to think that we should see it start from the West on the Sun.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 02:35:33 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2019, 02:38:15 AM »
Tumeni, you subtract the speed of the earth's rotation from the speed of the moon around the earth to say that the moon's shadow is traveling over the earth faster than the Earth's rotation. And that this shadow is traveling from West to East at a speed of about 1200mph to make the eclipse path from the west coast of the US to the east coast.

How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?

See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

If the Moon was passing by overhead West to East at 1200 miles per hour to make an eclipse path from West to East on the Earth's surface, then one is inclined to think that we should see it start from the West on the Sun.

Read:

https://www.space.com/36388-total-solar-eclipse-2017-duration.html

Then dispute.

I'm wasting time trying to find you yet another nice visual that shows how a shadow works. And you simply deny them all for reasons that only fall into a troll bucket.

I could tease out, cherry pick from the article, which you often do. But why bother. It answers all of your "questions". Answers which have already been pointed out to you, you are trying to make into a 'paradox', one that doesn't exist. Nice try.
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