The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 07:23:38 PM

Title: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 07:23:38 PM
Help me understand the direction of the Solar Eclipse.

According to what we observe:

- The Sun sets in the West.
- The Moon sets in the West.

Ask an Astronomer: (http://askanastronomer.org/planets/2015/11/13/moon-in-the-night-sky/) "The Earth rotates counter-clockwise on its axis (picture a spinning top). Because of this motion, celestial bodies such as the Sun, Moon and stars appear to rise in the eastern sky and set in the western sky."

The Aug 2017 Path of Totality for the solar eclipse Started on the West Coast of the United States and ended on the East Coast.

(https://i.imgur.com/NYpzHKi.jpg)

If we observe the earth from the perspective of the sun, from a static point over the earth, the shadow of the moon would appear on the East Coast first and end on the West Coast.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)

When pressed for an answer, some have that it started in the West because the Moon is traveling around the Earth from West to East. However, if we have the Moon rotating around the Earth faster than Earth's rotation, then we should see the Moon set in the East every day.

How does this work?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 17, 2019, 07:46:17 PM
You ask this as if you wanted an answer, but it's quite clear that you do not want an answer. If you wanted it, the answer is readily available. It took me less than 5 minutes to google this. I found you this video:
https://youtu.be/3xkUTebkABc?t=110

You aren't really asking a genuine question here are you? Would it be more accurate to say that you're actually trying to suggest that no answer to this question exists? I mean, if you REALLY wanted the answer, you'd have googled it and found the same thing I did. Yet that's not how this went down. Why is that?

The best explanation I can come up with is that you know the answer, but you are acting as if you do not. Is that what's really going on?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 07:49:46 PM
That video gives an explanation that the Moon is rotating around the Earth faster than it is rotating. So why doesn't the Moon set in the East?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 17, 2019, 07:52:15 PM
Here's another animation I found useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKFPL9xBe_U
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Curious Squirrel on May 17, 2019, 07:58:32 PM
I'm not interested in taking the time to find the exact pages at this time being on mobile, but the answer to your question was answered as nauseum in a thread about two years ago on the other site. https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71435.0 There were no less than three different attempts at explaining this phenomenon, including a way to replicate it in your own backyard as I recall.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 08:08:42 PM
Neither of those sources address how the moon can travel faster than the Earth's rotation and also set in the West.

Please point out the explanation.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 17, 2019, 08:19:36 PM
Neither of those sources address how the moon can travel faster than the Earth's rotation and also set in the West.

Please point out the explanation.
Simply put: both the sun and moon cross the sky from east to west, but the sun is moving faster than the moon.  If you want, you can do the math yourself to compare the speed of the earth's rotation to the speed of the moon as it orbits the earth.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Curious Squirrel on May 17, 2019, 08:20:38 PM
Neither of those sources address how the moon can travel faster than the Earth's rotation and also set in the West.

Please point out the explanation.
Bullshit you read through that thread in ten minutes. The answer is in there, and normally I'd be happy to suss out where, but do your own work this time Tom. Or wait for someone who's got the time and interest to do it for you to come along, the threads a rather interesting read overall imo.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 08:24:26 PM
I've already seen that thread. You don't think that I visit that forum? I went there and here is Markjo's explanation:

Quote
As FE'ers like to constantly remind us, the earth is rotating at 1100 mph at the equator. 

Well, the moon is orbiting the earth at just under 2300 mph.

Which do you suppose is faster?

The answers do not address why the moon doesn't set in the East if it is rotating over the Earth's surface faster than the Earth's rotation. You linked me to 50 pages of trolling.

If you have an answer then I would suggest that you give it directly rather than random links with the explanation that "the answer is in there somewhere." That is a sign that you do not know the answer and cannot explain it.

Simply put: both the sun and moon cross the sky from east to west, but the sun is moving faster than the moon.  If you want, you can do the math yourself to compare the speed of the earth's rotation to the speed of the moon as it orbits the earth.

Here you are stating what we see, not showing how it works geometrically in the Round Earth model to answer the East/West shadow path and setting direction question.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Curious Squirrel on May 17, 2019, 08:36:11 PM
I've already seen that thread. You don't think that I visit that forum? I went there and here is Markjo's explanation:

Quote
As FE'ers like to constantly remind us, the earth is rotating at 1100 mph at the equator. 

Well, the moon is orbiting the earth at just under 2300 mph.

Which do you suppose is faster?

The answers do not address why the moon doesn't set in the East if it is rotating around the Earth faster than the Earth's rotation. You linked me to 50 pages of trolling.

If you have an answer then I would suggest that you give it directly rather than random links with the explanation that "the answer is in there somewhere." That is a sign that you do not know the answer and cannot explain it.
If you still genuinely don't know the answer to your question after having watched that thread, then you're hopeless and you should stop pretending you understand a damn thing about how the standard model works. Go take some classes. Learn something. Reevaluate what you know vs think you know. Then try this whole FE thing again.

For the rest of you, check out that thread. See if you can find the explanations I'm talking about. This is just the final nail that Tom is here just to troll. He's not interested in learning.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Uetzicle on May 17, 2019, 08:37:13 PM
Neither of those sources address how the moon can travel faster than the Earth's rotation and also set in the West.

Please point out the explanation.

Really?

I think you need to watch the first video again. And then again. It explains it very clearly.

Yes, the moon travels in its orbit around the earth faster than the earth rotates on its axis. But the moon has a LOT further to travel. The side of the earth you are on turns away from the moon almost 28 times before the moon completes a revolution around the earth. And as the earth turns, the moon appears to rise in the east and set in the west. The moon would need to travel 28 times faster for it to appear to set in the east.

You're just trolling, right? Like previous posters said, there are many, many resources online, in books, etc. that illustrate this. It's also a fairly easy experiment to set up at home. This has to be a troll.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 08:42:12 PM
If you still genuinely don't know the answer to your question after having watched that thread, then you're hopeless and you should stop pretending you understand a damn thing about how the standard model works. Go take some classes. Learn something. Reevaluate what you know vs think you know. Then try this whole FE thing again.

For the rest of you, check out that thread. See if you can find the explanations I'm talking about. This is just the final nail that Tom is here just to troll. He's not interested in learning.

The fact that you posted a link to a long thread rather than giving the answer or quoting it shows that YOU don't know the answer.

That's not how debate works. If you can't give an answer then it means that you don't know it. Telling someone to read a book for their answer is not answering the question.

As I've said, I went there and it's markjo and others saying that the moon is faster than the earth. This does not address my question. If the answer is in there somewhere, or somewhere else, then please explain or quote it for us.

Quote
Really?

I think you need to watch the first video again. And then again. It explains it very clearly.

No it doesn't. The video author just says that the moon is faster than the earth's rotation. It does not answer my question.

The direction of the moon's setting is not discussed at all.

Quote from: Uetzicle
Yes, the moon travels in its orbit around the earth faster than the earth rotates on its axis. But the moon has a LOT further to travel. The side of the earth you are on turns away from the moon almost 28 times before the moon completes a revolution around the earth. And as the earth turns, the moon appears to rise in the east and set in the west. The moon would need to travel 28 times faster for it to appear to set in the east.

Is the Moon traveling faster than the surface of the Earth, or slower than it?

The Moon would need to be traveling faster than the Earth's surface for its shadow to start in the West and end in the East. In which case, if the Moon it traveling faster than the Earth's surface then it should set in the East.

(https://c.tadst.com/gfx/750x500/hybrid-solar-eclipse.png?1)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 09:31:55 PM
I took markjo's advice and did the math.

According to caltech: (http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/ask/176--How-fast-does-the-Moon-travel-around-Earth-)

Quote
How fast does the Moon travel around Earth?

The Moon orbits Earth at a speed of 2,288 miles per hour (3,683 kilometers per hour). During this time it travels a distance of 1,423,000 miles (2,290,000 kilometers).

Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph

Circumference of Moon's orbit: 1,423,000 miles

Circumference of Moon's orbit / 360 degrees = 3952.77 miles per degree

2,288 (Speed of Moon in mph) * 12 = 47433.24 miles around the earth over 12 hours

47433.24 miles / 3952.77 miles per degree = 12 degrees around the earth in 12 hours

So the Moon is slower than the Earth's rotation. After 12 hours the moon would make an arc 12 degrees around the Earth, while after 12 hours a point on the Earth would turn 180 degrees.

Surely, I must be doing something wrong?

In which case, if the Moon is slower than a point on the Earth's surface, then the path of the eclipse should travel from East to West, as if the Moon were static over the earth while the earth turned beneath it.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 17, 2019, 09:37:34 PM
Tom, it's VERY hard to believe that you're being genuine.

The Moon's "speed" can have 2 very distinct meanings, and you typed it right in your own post.

"Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph"

Is that faster or slower than the surface of the Earth moves?

Radial speed and linear speed are different things, and they have different effects.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 09:40:51 PM
Tom, it's VERY hard to believe that you're being genuine.

The Moon's "speed" can have 2 very distinct meanings, and you typed it right in your own post.

"Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph"

Is that faster or slower than the surface of the Earth moves?

Radial speed and linear speed are different things, and they have different effects.

It doesn't say. I would say that it doesn't really matter either way.

If the Moon is travelling with the surface of the Earth + the Moon's speed, then the Moon would see an Earth turning backwards to the animation posted above, because the Moon is outrunning it as the Moon travels Eastwards in relation to the Earth's surface. In which case an observer on the Earth's surface would see it set in the East.

The paradox I described earlier occurs. We can only have a correct direction of the eclipse across the face of the Earth or a correct direction of the Moon's setting, not both.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 17, 2019, 10:31:47 PM
Surely, I must be doing something wrong?

Yes, you're taking the angular component of the Moon's orbit and applying this to the Moon's shadow.

The Moon moves by degrees around the Earth, its orbit centred on (roughly) the centre of the Earth.

The Moon's shadow has no angular component AROUND the Earth. It moves back and forth across the Earth/Moon system like a pencil being rolled back and forth across a CD or other disc.

Moon speed at time its shadow crosses the area of space occupied by Earth = 2200 mph or so
Speed of Moon's shadow at this point = same
Speed of equivalent point on Earth surface = 1000 mph or less

Both in an Easterly direction.

Net result = 2200 minus 1000 = 1200 mph or so, in an Easterly direction


No?


The grey lines are the Moon's shadow, always cast out in a straight line, continuation of the imaginary line connecting Moon with Sun

(https://i.imgur.com/uLjL4J3.jpg)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 10:51:11 PM
If the Earth is static in your image from the North Pole and the Moon is moving Eastwards in relation to the earth's surface then you have the moon setting in the East. An observer in California sees the moon setting over the East Coast.

(https://i.imgur.com/mxhD9Cl.png)

You have the shadow direction correct, moving from West to East, but you have the direction of setting incorrect.

The Moon sets in the West.

You need to come up with a way to get the Moon to set in the West and for the shadow to travel from West to East.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 17, 2019, 10:54:29 PM
If the Earth is static in your image...
The earth isn't static.  It's rotating at a linear speed of 1000 mph at the equator.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 10:55:36 PM
If the Earth is static in your image...
The earth isn't static.  It's rotating at 1000 mph.

If the Moon is moving faster or slower in relation to the Earth's surface, there is an issue either way.

If the Earth is rotating faster than the  Moon, leaving it behind, then the Moon will see the Earth rotating with the East Coast of the United States oncoming to it. And the shadow will begin in the East.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 17, 2019, 10:58:58 PM
If the Earth is static in your image...
The earth isn't static.  It's rotating at 1000 mph.

If the Moon is rotating faster or slower than the Earth's surface, there is an issue either way.

Not following, but in any case: Here's an animation for the 2016 Solar eclipse very similar to the one I posted for the 2017 eclipse. Earth day (1 rotation) = 24ish hours. It takes the moon 27ish days to orbit the earth. The umbra moves west to east slightly outpacing the speed of earth's rotation. Which way does any shadow move as the sun is moving west? East. What about it has you so confused?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0mvLoDZCl0

Here's an even deeper explanation if you require it:

https://www.space.com/36388-total-solar-eclipse-2017-duration.html
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 11:03:16 PM
Interesting, but you just posted an animation of a penumbra moving randomly around. The matter is not explained. I would suggest creating a diagram to explain the paradox with your model, keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

No explanation to this issue has been posted.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 17, 2019, 11:03:53 PM
Interesting, but you just posted a video of a penumbra randomly moving around. The matter is not explained. I would suggest creating a diagram to explain the paradox, keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

Umm, what's random about it?  And what's funny about your statement is that you've invented a paradox where none exists. A paradox for 1, as it were.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 11:04:57 PM
Interesting, but you just posted a video of a penumbra randomly moving around. The matter is not explained. I would suggest creating a diagram to explain the paradox, keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

Umm, what's random about it?  And what's funny about your statement is that you've invented a paradox where none exists. A paradox for 1, as it were.

Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth. It doesn't work.

If the best you can do is a NASA animation with odd geometry, then I am afraid there is nothing to discuss with you. You need to explain this.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 17, 2019, 11:07:37 PM
You need to come up with a way to get the Moon to set in the West and for the shadow to travel from West to East.

The Earth is moving. I showed you a static graphic, not a motion picture.

The shadow moves from West to East for the reason I stated above. On the day of the eclipse, the Moon still moved across the sky as it normally does, setting in the West, but because the Moon's shadow does not share the angular motion of the Moon around Earth's centre, the shadow exhibited different behaviour. The approximate maths are above in my post.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 17, 2019, 11:10:06 PM
Interesting, but you just posted a video of a penumbra randomly moving around. The matter is not explained. I would suggest creating a diagram to explain the paradox, keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

Umm, what's random about it?  And what's funny about your statement is that you've invented a paradox where none exists. A paradox for 1, as it were.

Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth. It doesn't work.

If the best you can do is a NASA animation with odd geometry, then I am afraid there is nothing to discuss with you. You need to explain this.

You obviously didn't read the article I posted. If you really want to paint yourself into the corner of why eclipses blow up flat earth theory, so be it. You see, RE can predict the exact path of an eclipse for any point on earth down to the meter. Part of that pinpoint accurate location prediction is the fact that the earth is a sphere. Now let that soak in a smidge and go back to the article I posted. It's short.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 17, 2019, 11:10:53 PM
If the Earth is rotating faster than the  Moon, leaving it behind, then the Moon will see the Earth rotating with the East Coast of the United States oncoming to it. And the shadow will begin in the East.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)

No, because the Moon's shadow DOES NOT ROTATE.

Comparison of rotational speed is misplaced because the Moon's shadow DOES NOT ROTATE around the Earth. The shadow does not exhibit the same behaviour as the Moon, so the shadow moves across the Earth's surface in a contrary motion to the Moon

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 11:11:08 PM
I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the Earth's surface is rotating faster than the Moon's rotation around the Earth, allowing the Moon to set in the West to all observers.

We are on the surface of the Moon when the Sun and Moon are lined up exactly with the Earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the Earth rotating.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)

North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 17, 2019, 11:16:02 PM
I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the earth's surface is rotating faster than the moon's rotation around the Moon, allowing the Moon to set in the West.

We are on the surface of the moon when the Sun and Moon are line up exactly with the earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the earth rotating.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)

North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.

The linear speed of a point on the surface is less than 1000 mph approx., Eastward.
The speed of the Moon's shadow across this is 2200 mph approx., Eastward.

Net result = 2200 minus 1000 = (at least) 1200 mph Eastward.


"We are on the surface of the Moon when the Sun and Moon are lined up exactly with the Earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. "

This is not a single instant, it spans a number of hours. So the alignment changes over this time.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tim Alphabeaver on May 17, 2019, 11:24:41 PM
If the Earth is static in your image...
The earth isn't static.  It's rotating at 1000 mph.

If the Moon is moving faster or slower in relation to the Earth's surface, there is an issue either way.

If the Earth is rotating faster than the  Moon, leaving it behind, then the Moon will see the Earth rotating with the East Coast of the United States oncoming to it. And the shadow will begin in the East.


I think this is a really hard problem to visualise, so I whipped up an image to help. This is an incredibly exaggerated version of the globe description of an eclipse.
Here we have the Moon with a lower angular velocity than the Earth, but a larger linear velocity. Yellow lines represent the Sun, and the black box represents shaded region.
Hopefully you can see in my image that the shadow moves from west to east, and the Moon sets in the west. The Earth in my image is rotating towards the east.
(https://i.imgur.com/PZJqQE3.png)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 17, 2019, 11:30:57 PM
keeping the straight-line geometry of the sun-earth-moon system during solar eclipse.

Please define this geometry.

The Earth moves, the Moon moves, yielding different lines with every passing instant. To what straight line do you refer?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 11:32:04 PM
I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the earth's surface is rotating faster than the moon's rotation around the Moon, allowing the Moon to set in the West.

We are on the surface of the moon when the Sun and Moon are line up exactly with the earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the earth rotating.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)

North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.

The linear speed of a point on the surface is less than 1000 mph approx., Eastward.
The speed of the Moon's shadow across this is 2200 mph approx., Eastward.

Look at your second assertion. Why would the shadow across the Moon be traveling Eastwards?

We have established that the Moon must be seeing the Earth turning in the way that it turns in the above animation so that it can set West for all observers. Correct?

If the Moon had a very long paint brush reaching to the Earth, it would be painting a line which travels Westwards. So the shadow must be traveling to the West.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 17, 2019, 11:34:54 PM
Why would the speed of the shadow across the Moon traveling Eastwards?

I'm going to wait while you rephrase this in a grammatically-correct form.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 17, 2019, 11:41:38 PM
We have established that the Moon must be seeing the Earth turning in the way that it turns in the above animation so that it can set West for all observers. Correct?

- - -   Yes, but we've also established that the Moon itself, and hence its shadow, is moving faster than any point on this surface. The Moon is not standing still, and neither is its shadow.

If the Moon had a very long paintbrush reaching to the Earth, it would be painting a line which travels Westwards.

- - -  No, it would not. The paintbrush is an extension of the line connecting Moon and Sun, as it must be if it follows the line of the Moon's shadow. This line will move at the speed of the Moon and of the Moon's shadow

So the shadow must be travelling to the West.

No.

Once again, the shadow is not stationary. It is moving Eastward, whether or not the Earth has got in its way, at around 2200mph. The fastest point on Earth's surface is moving at around 1000mph. Both Eastward.

Net result = 2200 minus 1000 = 1200 mph, still Eastward.

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 17, 2019, 11:47:51 PM
Tom, take a standard compact disc, a saucer, or a small plate, and a pen or pencil.

Roll the pencil across the CD from one side to the other, back to the start, and repeat, back and forth.

Do you agree that the speed of the pencil reduces to zero at the limits of its travel? i.e. that the speed is zero as it changes direction at each edge?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 12:07:19 AM
Tom, are you familiar with a standard school protractor? A semi-circular piece of plastic, marked out with increments in degrees, over a span of 180 degrees?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protractor

Take one of these, trace a semi-circle around the curved edge, and mark out points at each 10 degree interval around the semi-circle. Draw a straight edge between 0 and 180.

Remove the protractor, and draw lines to connect each 10-degree point on the semi-circle to the straight edge, making a right-angle at each point where they meet the straight edge.

Do you agree, having done this, that the distances between each point on the straight edge vary?

That whilst the linear distance around the semi-circle is the same for each 10-degree arc, the linear distance on the straight edge differs for each?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 12:25:44 AM
Why would the speed of the shadow across the Moon Earth be traveling Eastwards?

Because that's the direction the Moon is moving, and the shadow will go this way too. Look down upon the Earth/Moon system, the Moon is going anti-clockwise around the Earth, so, if you got between Sun and Earth, with your head above the plane of lunar orbit, your feet below, the Moon would move left to right across your field of view.

Same as if you had a clock that was running backward. Tilt the face back to place you below the 6, perfectly in line with the face, and the ends of the hands will, as they pass the 6, move from your left (9) to right (3)

If the Earth were not there, and you had a flat circle of paper where Earth should be, the shadow would go from left (West) to right (East), i.e. Eastward.

No?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 12:51:09 AM
We observe the Earth rotating.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)

North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

You would agree that in the standard globe model, where the Earth rotates once every 24 hours, that it is taking, in your animation, roughly 12 hours for a set point on the East coast of the USA to move from the far left side of this globe to the right, and another 12 for it to move, out of view here, from right to left.

Yes? No?

Would you also agree that standard texts show the diameter of the Earth as 7917.5 miles?

Yes? No?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 18, 2019, 12:53:08 AM
Tom, just as an FYI, this is not uniquely an RE problem.  The apparent motions of the sun and moon are the same on a flat earth, so the exact same problem exists for FE solar eclipses.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2019, 02:10:55 AM
Tumeni, you subtract the speed of the earth's rotation from the speed of the moon around the earth to say that the moon's shadow is traveling over the earth faster than the Earth's rotation. And that this shadow is traveling from West to East at a speed of about 1200mph to make the eclipse path from the west coast of the US to the east coast. The moon is passing in front of the sun at a speed of 1200mph to make the Eastwardly moving shadow which moves at that speed.

How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?

See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

If the Moon was passing by overhead West to East at 1200 miles per hour to make an eclipse path from West to East on the Earth's surface, then one is inclined to think that we should see it start from the West on the Sun.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 18, 2019, 02:38:15 AM
Tumeni, you subtract the speed of the earth's rotation from the speed of the moon around the earth to say that the moon's shadow is traveling over the earth faster than the Earth's rotation. And that this shadow is traveling from West to East at a speed of about 1200mph to make the eclipse path from the west coast of the US to the east coast.

How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?

See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

If the Moon was passing by overhead West to East at 1200 miles per hour to make an eclipse path from West to East on the Earth's surface, then one is inclined to think that we should see it start from the West on the Sun.

Read:

https://www.space.com/36388-total-solar-eclipse-2017-duration.html

Then dispute.

I'm wasting time trying to find you yet another nice visual that shows how a shadow works. And you simply deny them all for reasons that only fall into a troll bucket.

I could tease out, cherry pick from the article, which you often do. But why bother. It answers all of your "questions". Answers which have already been pointed out to you, you are trying to make into a 'paradox', one that doesn't exist. Nice try.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 18, 2019, 02:45:17 AM
Guys, he's suckered you. He knows exactly how it works. He acts confused to make you guys jump around trying to answer his question while he continues to act like he doesn't get it.

Get serious here. When have you EVER heard a flat Earther talk about the speed of the Earth's rotation as a rotational speed? They ALWAYS quote it by the linear speed. And yet, here we have Tom who begins with a given linear speed and converts that into a rotational speed to compare it to the speed of the Earth. And we're supposed to believe that this is anything other than absolutely on purpose? Get real.

Tom will never concede that you have explained the situation. No matter what. This is not the behavior of a genuine truth seeker. Tom is doing an act. I could only guess why, but I'm quite convinced he does it on purpose.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 18, 2019, 02:56:01 AM
Guys, he's suckered you. He knows exactly how it works. He acts confused to make you guys jump around trying to answer his question while he continues to act like he doesn't get it.

Get serious here. When have you EVER heard a flat Earther talk about the speed of the Earth's rotation as a rotational speed? They ALWAYS quote it by the linear speed. And yet, here we have Tom who begins with a given linear speed and converts that into a rotational speed to compare it to the speed of the Earth. And we're supposed to believe that this is anything other than absolutely on purpose? Get real.

Tom will never concede that you have explained the situation. No matter what. This is not the behavior of a genuine truth seeker. Tom is doing an act. I could only guess why, but I'm quite convinced he does it on purpose.

I couldn't agree more. He's merely trying to pretend how a 'shadow' doesn't work. Much like the dozen plus pages a half a dozen of us spent trying to make him go outside for 1 minute with a piece of string and a tennis ball to zetetically see how the 'moon terminator illusion' works. He's trolling, that's all. Pay no mind.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2019, 02:58:49 AM
Tumeni, you subtract the speed of the earth's rotation from the speed of the moon around the earth to say that the moon's shadow is traveling over the earth faster than the Earth's rotation. And that this shadow is traveling from West to East at a speed of about 1200mph to make the eclipse path from the west coast of the US to the east coast.

How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?

See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

If the Moon was passing by overhead West to East at 1200 miles per hour to make an eclipse path from West to East on the Earth's surface, then one is inclined to think that we should see it start from the West on the Sun.

Read:

https://www.space.com/36388-total-solar-eclipse-2017-duration.html

Then dispute.

I'm wasting time trying to find you yet another nice visual that shows how a shadow works. And you simply deny them all for reasons that only fall into a troll bucket.

I could tease out, cherry pick from the article, which you often do. But why bother. It answers all of your "questions". Answers which have already been pointed out to you, you are trying to make into a 'paradox', one that doesn't exist. Nice try.

That article doesn't say anything about these topics we are discussing. I want to know how the geometry of your model works in comparison to what we observe.

You need the Moon going west, so why do we see it starting on the east on the sun?

If you guys can't explain it then you should abandon the thread.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 18, 2019, 03:03:49 AM
Tumeni, you subtract the speed of the earth's rotation from the speed of the moon around the earth to say that the moon's shadow is traveling over the earth faster than the Earth's rotation. And that this shadow is traveling from West to East at a speed of about 1200mph to make the eclipse path from the west coast of the US to the east coast.

How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?

See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

If the Moon was passing by overhead West to East at 1200 miles per hour to make an eclipse path from West to East on the Earth's surface, then one is inclined to think that we should see it start from the West on the Sun.

Read:

https://www.space.com/36388-total-solar-eclipse-2017-duration.html

Then dispute.

I'm wasting time trying to find you yet another nice visual that shows how a shadow works. And you simply deny them all for reasons that only fall into a troll bucket.

I could tease out, cherry pick from the article, which you often do. But why bother. It answers all of your "questions". Answers which have already been pointed out to you, you are trying to make into a 'paradox', one that doesn't exist. Nice try.

That article doesn't say anything about these topics we are discussing. I want to know how the geometry of your model works in comparison to what we observe.

If you guys can't explain it then you should abandon the thread.

It's already been explained, exhibited, and demonstrated ad nausea. If you claim to not get it, then that is a personal failing.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2019, 03:06:25 AM
You have not explained it at all. You are running away from it. If you don't have answers then don't post and quietly admit defeat by silence.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 18, 2019, 03:11:07 AM
You have not explained it at all. You are running away from it. If you don't have answers then don't post and quietly admit defeat by silence.

I already provided something for you to refute. Just saying something has not been explained to your satisfaction is what is considered running away. Quit trolling. It's not very becoming and is very desperate. You've taken a beating lately, so perhaps understand your desperation. Carry on.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2019, 03:13:56 AM
That link does not have anything about which direction the moon passes in front of the sun. If you can't quote from your source to demonstrate your argument then you have none.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: J-Man on May 18, 2019, 03:25:20 AM
You're all being suckered. Over two thousand years ago people had been studying the movements of lights in the sky. Lets say for 2000 years prior to that, they documented movement, to come up with a device that ultimately proved the celestial movement of all lights in the firmament. We call the discovery Antikythera Mechanism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPVCJjTNgk

https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/17/15650210/antikythera-mechanism-discovery-anniversary-analog-astronomical-computer

So Please....get a yob
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 18, 2019, 03:36:20 AM
That link does not have anything about which direction the moon passes in front of the sun. If you can't quote from your source to demonstrate your argument then you have none.

Didn't know you had a problem with the direction of which way the moon passes in front of the sun. Seems like you may have answered your own question. Why don't you state exactly what your issue is and we'll take it from there. You keep on moving not only questions around but actual celestial bodies. Of which you have no knowledge of anyway. As previously admitted by you. So carry on, maybe we'll get somewhere.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 18, 2019, 03:42:26 AM
Tumeni, you subtract the speed of the earth's rotation from the speed of the moon around the earth to say that the moon's shadow is traveling over the earth faster than the Earth's rotation. And that this shadow is traveling from West to East at a speed of about 1200mph to make the eclipse path from the west coast of the US to the east coast. The moon is passing in front of the sun at a speed of 1200mph to make the Eastwardly moving shadow which moves at that speed.

How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?

See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

If the Moon was passing by overhead West to East at 1200 miles per hour to make an eclipse path from West to East on the Earth's surface, then one is inclined to think that we should see it start from the West on the Sun.
Again Tom, think about it.  FE'ers are seeing exactly the same thing that RE'ers are seeing and the important parts of the geometry aren't really that much different.  If you can formulate a reasonable FE explanation, then it will most likely be quite similar to the RE explanation.  That is unless you feel the need to invoke bendy light or something.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2019, 04:51:27 AM
It's a simple geometric question. What's the problem?

According to Tumeni/whoever, we can subtract the speed of the moon from the rotation of the earth and see that the moon's shadow is traveling from West to East at 1200 mph across the continental US.

In which case, we get a scene like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/09GeQ6N.png)

Yet the Moon does not cross in front of the Sun from West to East. It crosses in front of the Sun from East to West.

See the Aug 2017 Solar Eclipse in question: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The first video shows that the Moon travels from East to West across the Sun, not West to East.

There is a geometric issue with this explanation.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 18, 2019, 05:47:22 AM
It's a simple geometric question. What's the problem?

According to Tumeni/whoever, we can subtract the speed of the moon from the rotation of the earth and see that the moon's shadow is traveling from West to East at 1200 mph across the continental US.

In which case, we get a scene like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/09GeQ6N.png)

Yet the Moon does not cross in front of the Sun from West to East. It crosses in front of the Sun from East to West.

See the Aug 2017 Solar Eclipse in question: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

There is a geometric issue with this explanation.

What's your question exactly?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2019, 06:03:15 AM
The Moon travels from East to West across the face of the Sun, not West to East. See the first video in the timeanddate.com link.

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 18, 2019, 06:06:35 AM
The Moon travels from East to West across the face of the Sun, not West to East. See the first video in the timeanddate.com link.

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

So what's your question?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2019, 06:08:06 AM
The Moon travels from East to West across the face of the Sun, not West to East. See the first video in the timeanddate.com link.

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

So what's your question?

I am asking you to please explain the scenario with your model.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 18, 2019, 06:17:43 AM
The Moon travels from East to West across the face of the Sun, not West to East. See the first video in the timeanddate.com link.

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

So what's your question?

I am asking you to please explain the scenario with your model.

What and which scenario? You've been all over the place with this. Be specific with your question. I still don't see one.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2019, 06:19:16 AM
It's a simple geometric question. Explain why the Moon goes from East to West in front of the Sun rather than from West to East with the explanation given:

It's a simple geometric question. What's the problem?

According to Tumeni/whoever, we can subtract the speed of the moon from the rotation of the earth and see that the moon's shadow is traveling from West to East at 1200 mph across the continental US.

In which case, we get a scene like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/09GeQ6N.png)

Yet the Moon does not cross in front of the Sun from West to East. It crosses in front of the Sun from East to West.

See the Aug 2017 Solar Eclipse in question: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The first video shows that the Moon travels from East to West across the Sun, not West to East.

There is a geometric issue with this explanation.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 18, 2019, 06:42:39 AM
It's a simple geometric question. Explain why the Moon goes from East to West in front of the Sun rather than from West to East with the explanation given:

It's a simple geometric question. What's the problem?

According to Tumeni/whoever, we can subtract the speed of the moon from the rotation of the earth and see that the moon's shadow is traveling from West to East at 1200 mph across the continental US.

In which case, we get a scene like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/09GeQ6N.png)

Yet the Moon does not cross in front of the Sun from West to East. It crosses in front of the Sun from East to West.

See the Aug 2017 Solar Eclipse in question: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The first video shows that the Moon travels from East to West across the Sun, not West to East.

There is a geometric issue with this explanation.

From what vantage point? Where is the observer? On the earth looking up? On the moon looking at the earth? On the sun looking at the moon? And then what are you trying to figure out from there? Which way the umbra should travel? Prepare a very specific question which you seem to find paradoxical. Thus far, it's unclear where you're tripped up.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 18, 2019, 06:43:13 AM
"Explain why the Moon goes from East to West in front of the Sun..."
Good question Tom, but I've got a better one. Explain why you THINK the Moon went from East to West in that video.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 06:51:01 AM
Tumeni, you subtract the speed of the earth's rotation from the speed of the moon around the earth to say that the moon's shadow is traveling over the earth faster than the Earth's rotation.

- - - No, I subtract the speed of any point on the surface from the speed of the Moon's shadow.

And that this shadow is traveling from West to East at a speed of about 1200mph to make the eclipse path from the west coast of the US to the east coast. The moon is passing in front of the sun at a speed of 1200mph to make the Eastwardly moving shadow which moves at that speed.

How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?

See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

- - - When observed from Earth, both objects move East to West during eclipse, in the same direction they always do


If the Moon was passing by overhead West to East at 1200 miles per hour to make an eclipse path from West to East on the Earth's surface, then one is inclined to think that we should see it start from the West on the Sun.

Once again, the Moon and the Moon's shadow exhibit two distinct forms of motion.

The Moon circles the Earth once every 28 days, whilst the point on the Earth observing the Moon moves in a circle once every day. The point on the Earth speeds along Eastward in a faster circle than the Moon itself, so the Moon is seen in the sky to move from East to West. The Moon lags behind the observer

The shadow moves across the space occupied by the Earth in a purely linear manner, passing over a distance, at maximum, of 7917.5 miles, at a speed of roughly 2200 mph, Eastward.  Any chosen point on the surface under this shadow is moving at max 1000 mph approx, also Eastward. The shadow has no rotational aspect around the Earth, so cannot be considered in terms of its angular position with respect to the Earth or observers.

Once again, with two motions Eastward, one of 2200 mph, one of around 1000 mph, the net result is 2200 - 1000  = 1200 mph, approx, still Eastward.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 06:54:14 AM
That article doesn't say anything about these topics we are discussing. I want to know how the geometry of your model works in comparison to what we observe.

- - - Told you that


You need the Moon going west, so why do we see it starting on the east on the sun?

- - - Told you that, too.

If you guys can't explain it then you should abandon the thread.

Maybe you should address the questions I posed a few hours ago in order that I could guide you through my explanation of the geometry.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 07:01:03 AM
It's a simple geometric question. What's the problem?

- - - It's a simple explanation, which I've given you a couple of times already, what's the problem?

According to Tumeni/whoever, we can subtract the speed of the moon from the rotation of the earth and see that the moon's shadow is traveling from West to East at 1200 mph across the continental US.

- - - Again, NO. We subtract the speed of a point on the surface of the Earth from the speed of the Moon's shadow.

In which case, we get a scene like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/09GeQ6N.png)

- - - No, we do not. You've shown the Earth as un-moving. You need to show it rotating as the Moon passes between Sun and Earth

Yet the Moon does not cross in front of the Sun from West to East. It crosses in front of the Sun from East to West.

See the Aug 2017 Solar Eclipse in question: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The first video shows that the Moon travels from East to West across the Sun, not West to East.

There is a geometric issue with this explanation.

No, there is not an issue. The observer on the surface moves in a full circle once per day, the Moon completes its orbit once per 28 days. The Moon lags behind and hence appears to the observer to move in his sky from East to West, even though it actually moves West to East.

Once again, the Moon's shadow HAS NO ORBITAL MOVEMENT around the Earth. The Moon was seen on eclipse day to rise in the East and set in the West, but the shadow did not, because it exhibits different motion to the Moon. No orbit. No rotation. Simply a linear path across the space occupied by the Earth (or not)

This is how the shadow moves (WITHOUT showing how the Earth moves beneath it) - side to side across the Earth/Moon system, back and forth. Not around the Earth. Max speed in the middle, zero at each extremity. Again, refer back to posts around #33 - #36

(https://i.imgur.com/uLjL4J3.jpg)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 07:03:25 AM
Tom, could you address my questions in replies #33 thru #36, please?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2019, 07:06:42 AM
Your geometry does not work. You have the moon eclipsing the sun, and outrunning it (above image) The moon is slower than the sun in the sky and falls behind it.

This is why the moon passes in front of the sun from the East to the West rather than from the West to the East that you are suggesting.

Your "the earth is rotating" suggestion does not explain why the Moon crosses in front of the sun from East to West. If the Moon is on the top of the image rather than the bottom and falls behind the Sun to travel from East to West then its shadow will start on the East side of the Earth to the West, which is incorrect and does not explain the path of the eclipse.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 07:14:41 AM
Here's a top-down view of the Moon's orbit, showing how the Moon's shadow behaves if the Earth does not get in the way (i.e. every month when there is no solar eclipse)

(https://i.imgur.com/L3xUOEo.jpg)

It moves back and forth in a repeating cycle. Bottom to top in 14 days, top down to bottom the other 14. First 14 days spans third quarter to first quarter through New Moon, second 14 runs from first quarter through Full Moon to third quarter

And here's how it looks when the Earth does get in the way.

(https://i.imgur.com/uLjL4J3.jpg)



Tom, do you agree that the shadow is not rotating around the Earth, even though the Moon is?

Yes/No?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Macarios on May 18, 2019, 07:37:13 AM
Mean lunar orbital radius is 385 000 km, which gives 2 419 026 km of the orbit's circumference.
Moon's sidereal orbital time is 27.32 days.
Earth's diameter is 12 742 km.
While Earth's meridian travels from one side to another in 12 hours, Moon's shadow travels in 3.45 hours.

Moon's shadow gets to the other end 3.5 times faster than Earth's meridian.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/apjsi9.png)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 07:37:47 AM
Your geometry does not work.

- - - Yes, it does. I work it out, as many others have done, from first principles, and the textbook attributes of Earth and Moon, and it matches perfectly with what everyone saw on the day.



You have the moon eclipsing the sun, and outrunning it (above image) The moon is slower than the sun in the sky and falls behind it.

This is why the moon passes in front of the sun from the East to the West rather than from the West to the East that you are suggesting.

- - - You've subtly rephrased it, that's not what I said


Your "the earth is rotating" suggestion does not explain why the Moon crosses in front of the sun from East to West. If the Moon is on the top of the image rather than the bottom and falls behind the Sun to travel from East to West then its shadow will start on the East side of the Earth to the West, which is incorrect and does not explain the path of the eclipse.

You can talk all day about what the Moon is doing, but we're concerned with what its SHADOW is doing, and the shadow is exhibiting a different form of motion to the Moon's.

C'mon, address the questions in #33 to #36

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 07:41:35 AM
(http://i65.tinypic.com/apjsi9.png)

And, for Tom's benefit, the shadow follows lines parallel to, and between, the two grey lines. It does not follow the radial red line.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 08:01:42 AM
How can this be the case when observers see the moon passing in front of the Sun from East to West, not West to East?



- - - No, you have this backwards




See: https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

The Moon starts in a Eastern direction on the Sun and ends in a Western direction on the Sun.

No, it starts on the Western edge of the Sun and moves to the Eastern. If you're looking South, as this animation does partway through, East is left, West is right.

The animation starts with both Sun and Moon in SSE, passing through S, to SW. Both objects do this. Both are moving Westward in the observer's sky, but the Moon is doing so slightly slower than the Sun is, so it has a net result of moving Eastward across the sun's face.      Which tallies with the Eastward direction of the shadow.

No?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 18, 2019, 08:32:36 AM
Your geometry does not work.

- - - Yes, it does



You have the moon eclipsing the sun, and outrunning it (above image) The moon is slower than the sun in the sky and falls behind it.


- - - Both are moving from East to West in the observer's sky. If the Moon does this slower than the Sun, the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is Eastward, since the Sun is moving faster Westward than the Moon is



This is why the moon passes in front of the sun from the East to the West rather than from the West to the East that you are suggesting.

- - - Except it doesn't. The T&D animation you quoted shows it moving Eastward across the Sun


Your "the earth is rotating" suggestion does not explain why the Moon crosses in front of the sun from East to West. If the Moon is on the top of the image rather than the bottom and falls behind the Sun to travel from East to West then its shadow will start on the East side of the Earth to the West, which is incorrect and does not explain the path of the eclipse.

Again, the Moon crossed the Sun from West to East. This corresponded to the direction the shadow moved.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: inquisitive on May 18, 2019, 06:54:11 PM
Your geometry does not work. You have the moon eclipsing the sun, and outrunning it (above image) The moon is slower than the sun in the sky and falls behind it.

This is why the moon passes in front of the sun from the East to the West rather than from the West to the East that you are suggesting.

Your "the earth is rotating" suggestion does not explain why the Moon crosses in front of the sun from East to West. If the Moon is on the top of the image rather than the bottom and falls behind the Sun to travel from East to West then its shadow will start on the East side of the Earth to the West, which is incorrect and does not explain the path of the eclipse.
You are playing a game, you can easily refer to documentation printed and online.  'Testing' random people on a forum is not going to get you anywhere.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: robinofloxley on May 20, 2019, 10:24:48 AM
Help me understand the direction of the Solar Eclipse.

I'm a bit late to this party, but does this help?

(https://i.imgur.com/4ckvJ1I.jpg)

Apparent path of sun is anticlockwise from S1 to S2. Apparent path of moon is anticlockwise from M1 to M2. Apparent path of eclipse is clockwise from E1 to E2. Observer standing at X.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 20, 2019, 03:51:23 PM
Tom, are you still with us? Have you conceded the point?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 20, 2019, 04:38:11 PM
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 20, 2019, 05:00:41 PM
Tom, it's a real world observation that has been witnessed by countless people, so it needs a plausible explanation regardless of your preferred earth shape.  How would you explain it from a flat earth point of view?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 20, 2019, 05:06:21 PM
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

Which one contradicts which?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Bad Puppy on May 20, 2019, 07:12:49 PM
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

The irony in that statement is palpable.

Are you referring to the diagram which shows the sun moving relative to the observer?  The RE model is solid as have been the many explanations that you failed to understand.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 20, 2019, 08:29:13 PM
I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

Isn't it you guys who routinely dodge away from a question like this, citing multiple FE models which have not been decided upon / agreed upon yet ... ?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 20, 2019, 09:51:35 PM
No explanation to this issue has been posted.
No explanation to this issue which you understand has been posted.
Multiple people have explained this to you in different ways but here's another video which I don't think was posted previously.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aQR2fz-Vs0

Basically it's because the moon is moving faster than the surface of the earth. But, as the video explains, that doesn't means that the moon should set in the east because the angular velocity of the moon's orbit around the earth is much slower than the earth's rotation about it's axis.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: robinofloxley on May 20, 2019, 09:56:39 PM
I see multiple contradicting explanations.

Corrected that one for you.

You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

I think we're all in agreement, just different ways to explain the same basic idea, completely consistent, various posters trying to be helpful.

Help me understand the direction of the Solar Eclipse.

We're certainly trying to.  Hope you appreciate the effort.

Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth

Yep, did that for you. What did you make of it?

Simply put: both the sun and moon cross the sky from east to west, but the sun is moving faster than the moon.  If you want, you can do the math yourself to compare the speed of the earth's rotation to the speed of the moon as it orbits the earth.

Here you are stating what we see, not showing how it works geometrically in the Round Earth model to answer the East/West shadow path and setting direction question.

OK, so the diagram I posted earlier shows how it works geometrically. Happy?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 20, 2019, 10:01:09 PM
Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth

Yep, did that for you. What did you make of it?

Well, dunno about Tom, but I think you're showing actual not apparent paths...

Are you aiming for a top-down view?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: robinofloxley on May 20, 2019, 10:05:46 PM
Draw a diagram, keeping a straight-line path between the sun, moon and earth

Yep, did that for you. What did you make of it?

Well, dunno about Tom, but I think you're showing actual not apparent paths...

Are you aiming for a top-down view?

Yes, top down. Apparent in the sense that the Earth is apparently stationary and I have the sun and moon (apparently) moving around it. It made sense to me when I drew it  :)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 20, 2019, 10:12:10 PM
Yes, top down. Apparent in the sense that the Earth is apparently stationary and I have the sun and moon (apparently) moving around it.

Shouldn't S1 and M1 be at the top, then, moving down to S2 and M2, with the eclipse shadow path moving up?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: robinofloxley on May 20, 2019, 10:24:44 PM
Yes, top down. Apparent in the sense that the Earth is apparently stationary and I have the sun and moon (apparently) moving around it.

Shouldn't S1 and M1 be at the top, then, moving down to S2 and M2, with the eclipse shadow path moving up?

Yep, you're right, since I answered "top down". If I'd said bottom up (i.e. looking down on the south pole rather than the north), then the diagram would be correct. The basic point though is to show you can have the sun and moon travelling the same way and still produce an eclipse travelling in the opposite direction. All it takes is for the sun (almost exactly 15 deg/hour across the sky) to be travelling faster than the moon (on average, around 14.5 deg/hour across the sky) to guarantee (as markjo points out) that the eclipse will travel in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Bikini Polaris on May 20, 2019, 10:27:16 PM
Nice paradox. Thanks guys for the explainations :) Basically, If we could perceive the movement of the Moon looking at it with a telescope with a point of reference (like the stars in the background), we'd see it going from West to East. Put another way, take a picture of the Moon today at 1:00, and another picture tomorrow at 1:00, and you'll see how far the Moon has gone from West to East in 24 hours.

Stated in a bullet list form:

- Earth rotates counterclockwise
- Moon rotates around Earth from West to East (counter clockwise)
but
- Angular speed of Earth >> Angular speed of Moon => Moon looks like going from East to West
however
- Actual very high speed of Moon => Eclipse does follow the actual West to East Moon path

It's pretty neat, but overall I think the graphical representation of the model is needed for visualizing it. And with all those elements to be considered at the same time, I can see it easy to mess the discussion.

Also, hopefully I capture Tumeni's points, when a time lapse video of an eclipse is seen, the Moon is going from West to East:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61CnLnw5CwA

I see multiple contradicting explanations. You guys should have a pow-wow and figure out how your model works.

Even if all REs here would figure out the model and put down calendar predictions, Rowbotham would step in saying "just numbers that happen to work" as he does in ENAG :)

@robinofloxley, everything is seen from my vantage position 8)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 20, 2019, 10:32:00 PM
Stated in a bullet list form:

- Earth rotates counterclockwise
- Moon rotates around Earth from West to East (counter clockwise)
but
- Angular speed of Earth >> Angular speed of Moon => Moon looks like going from East to West
however
- Actual very high speed of Moon => Eclipse does follow the actual West to East Moon path

Additional salient points -
The Moon's shadow has no angular speed around the Earth, whereas the Moon itself does.
The Moon's linear speed, at the time its shadow crosses the space where Earth may or may not be, is higher than the speed of any point on Earth's surface.

See my posts above.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: model 29 on May 21, 2019, 03:59:46 AM
Tom Bishop, why do you continue to fail at understanding this topic?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Bikini Polaris on May 21, 2019, 12:48:17 PM
The Moon travels from East to West across the face of the Sun, not West to East. See the first video in the timeanddate.com link.

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2017-august-21

Nope, as ICanScienceThat said, in the video Moon is going from right to left w.r.t. a viewer staring at the Sun.

I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the Earth's surface is rotating faster than the Moon's rotation around the Earth, allowing the Moon to set in the West to all observers.

We are on the surface of the Moon when the Sun and Moon are lined up exactly with the Earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the Earth rotating.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)

North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.

Suppose a viewer from earth throw a laser ray to space, straight up vertical in the sky, without moving. If that ray hits the moon, it will run incredibly fast on its surface and will be seen, from a viewer on the Moon, as going from left to right. This is how the Moon is seen rising East and setting West.

Suppose you're on the Moon, in the center of the face facing the earth, and you're looking precisely in a direction parallel to sun rays (say that one sun ray connecting the sun and the earth) with a binocular limiting your view. To do so, your head will be slowly rotating clockwise. When you'll briefly see earth (once every 28 days), you'll see it going from right to left, as it was rising from west and setting to east. This is reflected on how we see the shadow due to eclipse (as Tumeni well explained)

Said in another way. The Moon surely see earth rotating, even if its speed is faster than earth's rotation. But for an observer on the Moon that looks only at a tiny part of the sky, following a straight direction (which requires uim to constantly move) will see Earth rising from West to East, once each 28 days.

The two viewers are not symmetric w.r.t. each others, they're actually contrained to experience the system in different ways, so their views aren't contradiction. They are different p.o.v.s ;)

If the Moon had a very long paint brush reaching to the Earth, it would be painting a line which travels Westwards. So the shadow must be traveling to the West.

It depends. If the brush on the Moon is parallel to the sun rays, it will paint earth once each 28 days, going from West to East. If the brush is perpendicular in the center of the face facing earth, than, it will keep painting earth 24/7, from East to West

----- This part can be skipped

Now just for fun imagine that the Moon had a superfast speed and that, everything else being equal, it was rotating around you (humans on earth) in half day (instead of 28 days, wow!). Then:

- it would be seen rising West and setting East
- its daily eclipse shadow would be seen going from west to east too

Then suppose a veeeery slow Moon, taking 1000 years rotating around earth.

- it would be seen rising East and setting West
- its eclipse shadow would still go from west to east, but on the ground it would be experienced as going from East to West

Finally, suppose the Moon had exactly the same angular speed of earth. This is again a very fast Moon.

- It would always be in a fixed position in earth's sky, never rising or setting.
- even though fixed, its motion w.r.t. the sun in the sky would be from West to East.

The b.e.p. occurs when the Moon goes as fast as a person on the Earth. In that case the shadow would be stationary on the ground.

So, in conclusions, the rising/setting direction is entirely due to the difference in angular speed. Instead, the shadow direction is dependent on the speed of the Moon. But these cases are quite simplifying the relative positions of the three bodies.



Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 21, 2019, 01:11:42 PM
I don't see the explanation.

In the following scenario a point on the Earth's surface is rotating faster than the Moon's rotation around the Earth, allowing the Moon to set in the West to all observers.

We are on the surface of the Moon when the Sun and Moon are lined up exactly with the Earth during the time of Solar Eclipse. We observe the Earth rotating.

(https://i.imgur.com/LPFYPVu.gif)

North America is coming in from from the East Coast.

How does the shadow start from the West Coast?

Please explain.
Tom, where would the sun and moon be in that animation during a solar eclipse?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 21, 2019, 02:42:47 PM
I've had a go at some diagrams. As has been stated, the shadow moves from West to East because the moons velocity is greater than the speed the earth spins at.
So if Tom is at T and the shadow is at S in these diagrams.
Tom starts in the sunlight, the shadow is the West of him.
By the time T has moved one 'spoke' the moon has moved 2 so Tom is now in the shadow, enjoying an eclipse.
By the time T has moved another 'spoke' the moon has moved another 2 so the shadow is now to the East of him.
So the shadow moves West to East:

(https://i.ibb.co/VDqkWX3/Eclipse1.jpg)

So why does the moon set in the West? Because in the above diagram although it illustrates the principle, the moon is drawn much too close.
In reality it's this far away:

(https://i.ibb.co/kQFQMxC/Eclipse2.jpg)

So while it takes the earth only 24 hours to rotate once, the moon takes 28 days to go around it. In terms of its velocity, it's going faster - and that's what determines the direction of the shadow - in terms of angular velocity it's going much more slowly, that's what determines where we see it set.

Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 21, 2019, 03:39:28 PM
"Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?"
I was going to ask the same thing...
Can we all agree that the eclipse DID happen exactly as described? Thousands of people saw this. Many of them took video of the event. The shadow really did travel west-to-east? The timing was precisely what had been predicted? The Moon really did block out the Sun, exactly as portrayed in the video? Right?
Well then whatever shape the Earth is, all this happened.
I'm going to suggest that the Moon really did pass in front of the Sun and that's what the world saw. Tom, do you propose this was something else? Is there some other geometry you believe to be at work in which the Moon blocks the light from the Sun in this particular West-to-East pattern moving over the surface of the Earth?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Bikini Polaris on May 21, 2019, 04:00:31 PM
Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?
"Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?"
I was going to ask the same thing...
Can we all agree that the eclipse DID happen exactly as described? Thousands of people saw this. Many of them took video of the event. The shadow really did travel west-to-east? The timing was precisely what had been predicted? The Moon really did block out the Sun, exactly as portrayed in the video? Right?
Well then whatever shape the Earth is, all this happened.
I'm going to suggest that the Moon really did pass in front of the Sun and that's what the world saw. Tom, do you propose this was something else? Is there some other geometry you believe to be at work in which the Moon blocks the light from the Sun in this particular West-to-East pattern moving over the surface of the Earth?

I join the crowd here in this request. I'm puzzled by the wiki as it states that both the Sun and the Moon are two spheres with 32-miles of diameter,  hovering 3000 miles over us. In that case the shadow of the Moon would go from West to East following the same path as the Moon. So empirical data (that you agree upon) are disproving this "two balls over us" statement.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 21, 2019, 04:44:05 PM
I join the crowd here in this request. I'm puzzled by the wiki as it states that both the Sun and the Moon are two spheres with 32-miles of diameter,  hovering 3000 miles over us. In that case the shadow of the Moon would go from West to East following the same path as the Moon. So empirical data (that you agree upon) are disproving this "two balls over us" statement.
As has been mentioned before, (from a geocentric POV) the sun and moon both travel from east to west, so the idea of the eclipse shadow moving from west to east is rather counterintuitive.  However, the fact that the sun and moon are moving at different speeds is why the shadow appears to move the "wrong way."  This is true for both RET and FET.  However, it seems that the FE sun would have to move faster than the FE moon for the same effect to occur on a flat earth.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Bikini Polaris on May 21, 2019, 08:35:32 PM
I join the crowd here in this request. I'm puzzled by the wiki as it states that both the Sun and the Moon are two spheres with 32-miles of diameter,  hovering 3000 miles over us. In that case the shadow of the Moon would go from West to East following the same path as the Moon. So empirical data (that you agree upon) are disproving this "two balls over us" statement.
As has been mentioned before, (from a geocentric POV) the sun and moon both travel from east to west, so the idea of the eclipse shadow moving from west to east is rather counterintuitive.  However, the fact that the sun and moon are moving at different speeds is why the shadow appears to move the "wrong way."  This is true for both RET and FET.  However, it seems that the FE sun would have to move faster than the FE moon for the same effect to occur on a flat earth.

Wow, I didn't think about that, thanks. Somehow my "Zetetic-sense" assumed, from the Eclipse videos, that the Moon moved faster than the Sun. But who knows, in FE everything is possible.

Another couple of questions:

1 - How can the totality shadow of the eclipse be so small, compared to the FE fact that during an eclipse the Moon and the Sun must be close to each other? (From the videos they almost perfectly overlap) I'd expect the Moon to block the light for the most part of this planet.

2 - How can annular eclipses happen at all, since they have the same diameter?

Btw, now that I delved into the Eclipse topic, my cognitive dissonance about FEs is getting huge. There's no way there exists a planar model where one can explain eclipses with naiveties like those used to compute the Sun diameter as being 32 miles. I also noticed how suspiciously dismissive is Rowbotham about Solar Eclipses.

Guys, he's suckered you. He knows exactly how it works. He acts confused to make you guys jump around trying to answer his question while he continues to act like he doesn't get it.

Get serious here. When have you EVER heard a flat Earther talk about the speed of the Earth's rotation as a rotational speed? They ALWAYS quote it by the linear speed. And yet, here we have Tom who begins with a given linear speed and converts that into a rotational speed to compare it to the speed of the Earth. And we're supposed to believe that this is anything other than absolutely on purpose? Get real.

Tom will never concede that you have explained the situation. No matter what. This is not the behavior of a genuine truth seeker. Tom is doing an act. I could only guess why, but I'm quite convinced he does it on purpose.

Is this topic started by Tom a word to the wise pointing the obvious fact that this whole website is a joke?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 22, 2019, 08:23:24 AM
The Moon orbits the Earth at an average distance of 384,400km or 238,855 miles. That means the orbital distance is the circumference of its orbit which by maths gives us 1,500,770 miles give or take a fifth of a mile.

Moons orbital period is 27.32 days so D/T gives us 62,532 miles per day.  24hr in a day so 62,532/24 means orbital speed (average) is 2,606 mph. That compares to just over 1000mph at maximum (equatorial) for the Earths rotation. Finally the Earths orbital speed around the Sun is 66,000mph.

As seen from Earth the Moon moves east against the stars as the phases cycle first waxes (new Moon to full Moon) and then wanes (full Moon back to new Moon) so the Moon orbital direction is from west to east. The Earths physical rotation direction is also west to east (prograde). The combined effect of the Earths rotation speed and the Moons distance from us means that the Moons apparent daily motion across the sky is east to west.  You have to compare its position against the stars to notice the west to east motion as well.

Again as seen from Earth, the Sun also moves east to west across the sky due to the Earths rotation effect. However the Suns motion against the stars is also west to east as a result of the Earth orbit. The much greater distance of the Sun compared to the Moon (400 times greater) means that a complete circuit of the sky (relative to the stars) takes a lot longer.

So there are two motions involved. The daily motion due to the Earths rotation which makes both the Sun and Moon move across the sky from east to west (Earths rotation is west to east) and there is also the motion against the stars which is more subtle and is much quicker for the Moon than it is for the Sun because the Moon is much nearer.

Going back to your original query Tom, the Moons shadow (that's what causes the eclipse) will first be visible on the west coast because the Moon's disk in the sky approaches the Sun from the western side (or from the right as we look at it) and then moves eastwards across the Suns disk. Remember the Moon is moving eastwards or right to left relative to the Sun by several degrees each day. So observers on the western end of the eclipse track will see it first while the observers on the eastern side will be the last to see it.  It's quite simple really.

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Auditor on May 22, 2019, 08:55:37 AM
Tom, the next time there is a solar eclipse, get your self a welding helmet with a shade 11 or 12 lens and watch the sun and you will see the moon slide in front of it in the same direction as the shadow is moving across the Earth. This will reveal real time evidence on why the shadow goes west to east, because the moon moves across the Sun/Earth line of sight in that direction.  You will then see the moon and sun continue to set in the west. There is no further complication needed than just watching it happen.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: spherical on May 22, 2019, 04:15:46 PM
Tom is just playing with words and distorting reality.
He knows very well how this works, if he does not I would be very surprised.
If I am a car manufacturer, I need to understand very well the guts of my competitor's cars, right?

Sun and Moon setting in the West is a play of words caused by Earth's rotation.
When Tom says the Moon sets on the West, he is making people think the Moon is actually moving to the West, it is a trick of words, it does not.
It is the same as a passenger in a running car saying the trees are moving backwards.

1.) Earth spins towards East, CCW as seen by the North Pole.

2.) Moon orbits Earth also towards East, but it takes 27.3 days for a full orbit, so its orbital movement is 27.3 times slower than Earth's rotation.  From an observer on Earth it seems the Moon moves to the West, it is not true for an observer on Polaris.

3.) Taking 27.3 days for a full orbit, based on its orbital radius its orbital speed is on average 1022 m/s.

4.) An observer at the Sun watching Earth with North Pole up, could see the Moon crossing in front, above or below the Earth's face (diameter distance) to the right with certain angle, in 12481 seconds, 3.46h.  It would take another 27.3 (actually synodic 29.5) days for that to repeat.

5.) Due the angles alignment of Sun, Moon and Earth, the Moon shadow could be cast over Earth or projected lost to space.

6.) On average, the shadow cone has the apex at 380,000km from the Moon.  As the Moon is distancing from Earth year after year, at some point in the future the distance to Earth will be longer than the apex and there will be no more total solar eclipses, no more Umbra.

Unquestionably, solar eclipses Umbra and Penumbra are projected Eastward on Earth.
Tom knows all of this in details.
It is known that in war (common to see here), if your enemy is stronger, just confuse them.


 
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 22, 2019, 05:00:30 PM
I've had a go at some diagrams. As has been stated, the shadow moves from West to East because the moons velocity is greater than the speed the earth spins at.
So if Tom is at T and the shadow is at S in these diagrams.
Tom starts in the sunlight, the shadow is the West of him.
By the time T has moved one 'spoke' the moon has moved 2 so Tom is now in the shadow, enjoying an eclipse.
By the time T has moved another 'spoke' the moon has moved another 2 so the shadow is now to the East of him.
So the shadow moves West to East:

(https://i.ibb.co/VDqkWX3/Eclipse1.jpg)

So why does the moon set in the West? Because in the above diagram although it illustrates the principle, the moon is drawn much too close.
In reality it's this far away:

(https://i.ibb.co/kQFQMxC/Eclipse2.jpg)

So while it takes the earth only 24 hours to rotate once, the moon takes 28 days to go around it. In terms of its velocity, it's going faster - and that's what determines the direction of the shadow - in terms of angular velocity it's going much more slowly, that's what determines where we see it set.

Out of interest, Tom. Is there a FE explanation for this?

According to this explanation I would see the Moon overtake the Sun. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in my sky.

Yet this is not what we observe. The Moon rises and sets 50 minutes later every day. it does not set not rise and set earlier every day.

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/education/ssrgtextbook/articles/moonphas.htm

"Moon rise occurs about 50 minutes later every day."

http://www.csun.edu/~physics/department_guide/old%20docs/S11/Lab_6_Starry%20Night-Moon%20phases.pdf

"The moon sets approximately 50 minutes later each night."

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2005HiA....13.1055F

"The way in which pre-Hispanic people predicted the eclipses by carefully observing the Sun's and Moon's trajectories can be explained to students by telling them that since the paths of the sun and moon form a 5 degree angle, and their apparent motion is different, the moon moves slower, one can infer when the trajectories will cross."

http://www.therevival.co.uk/article/science-moon-sighting

"the moon moves slower than the sun appears to move"

StraightDope (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=489677):

"Q: Does the moon move faster than the sun [across the sky]?

A: The Moon moves slower across the sky."

Our FAQ also has the Moon moving slower than the sun:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/30/Sun_and_Moon_Rotation_Cycles.png)

Caption "The lunar rotation cycle is about 347.81°/day"

So what's going on? Does the Moon appear to move faster than the Sun in the sky or slower than the Sun?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 22, 2019, 05:11:31 PM
How long the Sun and Moon remain visible in the sky and the difference in Moon setting times from day to day are irrelevant in the current context Tom.  It is the motion of the Moon in relation to the Sun on the sky which is what matters here. The Moon is the fastest moving of all the celestial bodies because it is the closest.

I explained fully in my previous post why the eclipse track starts to the west and ends at its eastern end but that seems to be something you have overlooked. If you want an answer to your question, read my previous post because I have provided one.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 22, 2019, 05:24:54 PM
The above sources say that the Moon moves slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it.

If the Moon moved faster than the Sun in the sky then it should set earlier every day, not later every day.

If the Moon were moving slower than the Sun in the illustration it should be intersecting it from the opposite direction in the illustration when it intersects those rays, which is contradictory to the argument put forward.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Curious Squirrel on May 22, 2019, 05:29:27 PM
The above sources say that the Moon moves slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it.

If the Moon moved faster than the Sun in the sky then it should set earlier every day, not later every day.

The illustrations showing the Moon moving faster than the Sun in the sky appears to be incorrect. If the Moon were moving slower than the Sun in the illustration it should be intersecting it from the opposite direction in the illustration when it intersects those rays, which messes up the argument put forward. Now the shadow is moving in the wrong direction.
The illustrations are showing only the motion of the moon in relation to the sun. In reality the sun is moving behind the moon during an eclipse rather than the moon moving in front of the sun (if we're talking speed differential across the sky, the effect is the same visually) Perspective, perspective, perspective.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 22, 2019, 05:31:29 PM
Quote
The above sources say that the Moon moves slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it.
The Moon moves eastwards on the sky (relative to the stars) by several degrees each day Tom. The Suns eastwards motion against the stars is much slower. 

As I said in my first post the Moon completes one circuit of the sky each month during the course of its orbit around the Earth. 

The Sun meanwhile completes one circuit of the sky during the course of one year. That's because the Suns motion around the sky is due to the Earth orbiting it. So consequently the Sun moves eastwards relative to the stars much less each day.

The daily observed east to west motion of the Sun and Moon is purely down to the Earths rotation and a completely separate thing.  Simple observation of the sky shows you all this. You don't need any other 'sources'.

Sorry CS, it is the Moon moving across (and in front of) the Sun that causes the eclipse.  Not the Sun moving behind the Moon. But I know what you mean.  Technically a solar eclipse is actually an occultation of the Sun by the Moon.

https://augusteclipse.com/viewing/what-happens-during-an-eclipse/
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 22, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
Quote from: Curious Squirrel
The illustrations are showing only the motion of the moon in relation to the sun. In reality the sun is moving behind the moon during an eclipse rather than the moon moving in front of the sun (if we're talking speed differential across the sky, the effect is the same visually) Perspective, perspective, perspective.

Really? How does it work? If the Sun is outrunning the Moon rather than the Moon outrunning the sun then the scene is reversed:

This:
(https://i.ibb.co/VDqkWX3/Eclipse1.jpg)

Becomes this:

(https://i.imgur.com/fyxkqjt.png)

Now the shadow is moving in the wrong direction.

Please provide the proper diagram if this one is wrong.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Curious Squirrel on May 22, 2019, 05:47:33 PM
Quote from: Curious Squirrel
The illustrations are showing only the motion of the moon in relation to the sun. In reality the sun is moving behind the moon during an eclipse rather than the moon moving in front of the sun (if we're talking speed differential across the sky, the effect is the same visually) Perspective, perspective, perspective.

Really? How does it work? If the Sun is outrunning the Moon rather than the Moon outrunning the sun then the scene is reversed:

This:
(https://i.ibb.co/VDqkWX3/Eclipse1.jpg)

Becomes this:

(https://i.imgur.com/gCrOFTw.png)

Now the shadow is moving in the wrong direction.

Please provide the proper diagram if this one is wrong.
The diagram is correct. It's just showing what happens from the sun perspective rather than the Earth perspective. Essentially.

Here is the scene watching from Earth with our perspective locked to the moon.

(https://i.imgur.com/eSIJmua.png)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 22, 2019, 05:58:01 PM
So what's going on? Does the Moon appear to move faster than the Sun in the sky or slower than the Sun?

You answered this already yourself, with the T&D animation you posted.

They both move across an observer's sky from East to West, the Moon slower than the Sun, so the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is West to East, which, coincidentally, corresponds with the direction of the Moon's shadow.

No?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 22, 2019, 06:00:40 PM
The diagram is correct. It's just showing what happens from the sun perspective rather than the Earth perspective. Essentially.

If the diagram is correct then it is showing the Moon overtake the Sun. Look at steps 1, 2 and 3:

(https://i.imgur.com/Rd5eHjH.png)


Quote
Here is the scene watching from Earth with our perspective locked to the moon.

(https://i.imgur.com/eSIJmua.png)

Presuming that everything is traveling leftwards like the other image, your illustration has the Moon traveling faster than the Sun. The opposite is true. If the Sun is traveling faster across the sky than the Moon then the Moon can never catch up to it.

Try to outrun a car traveling at 60 MPH with a bicycle traveling at 20 MPH. Not possible.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 22, 2019, 06:03:04 PM
The above sources say that the Moon moves slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it.

- - Correct, so with both Moon and Sun moving E to W in the observer's sky, and the Moon moving slower than the Sun, the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the shadow direction over the Earth

If the Moon were moving slower than the Sun in the illustration it should be intersecting it from the opposite direction in the illustration when it intersects those rays, which is contradictory to the argument put forward.

Already addressed in your post of the T&D animation and my response to it.

Could I persuade you to revisit #33 thru #36 and actually answer the questions I put to you?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 22, 2019, 06:08:40 PM
Tom, from which perspective would you like to see a diagram?

From the viewpoint of the observer on Earth?
A top-down view of the Earth/Moon system?
From the viewpoint of an observer outwith the system, with back to / facing the Sun?

Tell us how you want it diagrammed, which way would help you understand it best.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 22, 2019, 06:41:33 PM
How many times do I have to say?

Moon: 360 degrees of sky over 27.3 days = 13.2 degrees eastwards (w.r.t to the stars) per day

Sun: 360 degrees of sky over 365 days = 0.9 degrees eastwards (w.r.t the stars) per day.

The east to west motion is like ovetaking a slower moving car from another car. The slower car appears to be moving backwards to the observer in the faster car.  That is just perspective.  Only in this case there are two other cars, the Sun and Moon. The more distant car (the Sun) seems to be moving slower than the nearer one.

Another factor that influences the period between Moon rise and Moon set is its declination. The Sun is now well to the north of the ecliptic so there is a longer period between Sun rise and Sun set. When the Moon is new it lies in line with the Sun so the rise and set time of the Moon will be the same as the rising and setting time of the Sun. That is true at any time of year. However when the Moon is full at this time of year it will be near its southern limit of its distance from the ecliptic and so there will be a much shorter period between Moon rise and Moon set.  Just like the days are much shorter in the northern hemisphere during winter.

So in this sense the time lapse between Moonrise and Moonset and Sunrise and Sunset depends on the Moons and the Suns  respective declination.  Today for example you will note that the Moons declination is in the order of -22 degrees while the Suns declination is +20 degrees. So in summary the period between the rising and setting of the Sun and Moon will vary with their respective distance north or south of the ecliptic.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Bad Puppy on May 22, 2019, 06:48:31 PM
This is a pretty cool video.  In the comments he does explain that he could not make the sun to scale for one main reason:

"Unfortunately I did have to re-scale the sun to fit the diameter of my spotlight as the scaled sun would have been approx 4.35 meters diameter and a distance of 469 meters."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FBlR_5dCt0
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Curious Squirrel on May 22, 2019, 07:03:16 PM
Quote
Here is the scene watching from Earth with our perspective locked to the moon.

(https://i.imgur.com/eSIJmua.png)

Presuming that everything is traveling leftwards like the other image, your illustration has the Moon traveling faster than the Sun. If the Sun is traveling faster across the sky than the Moon then the Moon can never catch up to it.

Try to outrun a car traveling at 60 MPH with a bicycle traveling at 20 MPH. Not possible.
Everything is moving right, because right is West. Just as though you were watching the eclipse from Earth. The sun overtakes the moon, just as I said above. The moon starts blocking the sun starting on the West side of it, and thus the shadow travels West-to-East, just as is observed despite both objects rising in the East and setting in the West. The moon finishes its journey in the sky slower/later than the sun so it sets later every night than the night before. Voila.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 22, 2019, 07:24:36 PM
Draw a diagram. I can see how this might work on a Flat Earth model where both the Sun and Moon are in motion:

(https://i.imgur.com/GTdrB6K.png)

-Both the Moon and the Sun are traveling Westwards. They both set in the West.
-The Sun is traveling faster than the Moon in the sky.
-The shadow is traveling from the West Coast to the East Coast.

But the Round Earth model seems to have issues. The diagrams provided have the Moon outrunning the Sun:

(https://i.imgur.com/Rd5eHjH.png)

But we know that the Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot overtake it.

Please show us how your perspective magic works.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 22, 2019, 07:31:06 PM
Obviously Tom you want the flat Earth interpretation to work because you are a flat Earth believer. That goes without saying, as does my expectation that you will dismiss the round Earth version regardless of how I explain to you what is going on.

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 22, 2019, 07:34:02 PM
Tom did you watch the video? The guy makes a physical model of it. In particular, I'd suggest the last 3rd. This makes it VERY clear.

You simply cannot watch that video and then expect us to believe you think it can't work. He literally shows it working.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 22, 2019, 07:49:01 PM
Tom did you watch the video? The guy makes a physical model of it. In particular, I'd suggest the last 3rd. This makes it VERY clear.

You simply cannot watch that video and then expect us to believe you think it can't work. He literally shows it working.

It does not explain it. He shows the same thing that the diagram we are discussing shows, except from the viewpoint of the Sun:

(https://i.imgur.com/2alEdLX.jpg)

He is moving the Moon in the video to overtake the Sun.

This the the same as the diagram that was presented to us with the Moon overtaking the Sun:

(https://i.imgur.com/Rd5eHjH.png)

Compare the two images. It's the same positioning, except that the camera is from the Sun's viewpoint. It's the same explanation, and therefore has the same problems.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 22, 2019, 07:54:29 PM
Tom did you watch the video? The guy makes a physical model of it. In particular, I'd suggest the last 3rd. This makes it VERY clear.

You simply cannot watch that video and then expect us to believe you think it can't work. He literally shows it working.

It does not explain it. He shows the same thing that the diagram shows, except from the viewpoint of the sun:

(https://i.imgur.com/2alEdLX.jpg)

He is moving the Moon in the video to overtake the Sun.
Yes, he's moving the earth 15 degrees per hour and the moon .5 degree per hour to show that the earth has a faster rotational speed than the moon, but the moon's shadow has a faster linear speed than the earth's rotation. 
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 22, 2019, 08:02:47 PM
He rotated the Earth 15 degrees per "hour". That's the agreed upon rate. He moved the Moon through it's orbit at 0.5 degrees per "hour". That's about right for the Moon's orbital speed, right?
Shadow moved as predicted.

So what are these "problems" you imagine could somehow exist with this? He made a scale model of the Earth and Moon and moved them at the appropriate rates. Are you suggesting he did not?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 22, 2019, 08:07:56 PM
He rotated the Earth 15 degrees per "hour". That's the agreed upon rate. He moved the Moon through it's orbit at 0.5 degrees per "hour". That's about right for the Moon's orbital speed, right?
Shadow moved as predicted.

So what are these "problems" you imagine could somehow exist with this? He made a scale model of the Earth and Moon and moved them at the appropriate rates. Are you suggesting he did not?

He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.

It doesn't matter if the Earth is spinning at 0 miles per hour or 1,000,000 miles per hour. What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: spherical on May 22, 2019, 08:18:28 PM
This became an endless discussion about A video. Any discussion based on an observer on Earth is prone to a lot of confusion, since Earth is rotating, Moon is orbiting.  The correct way is to sit the observer on the Sun and think about the real think, heliocentric model.

I think the topic is related to the OP stating the solar eclipse shadow path moving in wrong direction, and that was already clarified, indeed it moves eastward on Earth if a little bit far from the poles.  Is there any doubt about it?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 22, 2019, 08:31:04 PM
He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.
No, he has the sun stationary because it's the rotation of the earth that causes the sun to appear to move across the sky.

It doesn't matter if the Earth is spinning at 0 miles per hour or 1,000,000 miles per hour. What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.
Tom, this is why we keep asking you to do the math and to do it correctly.  I admit that this can be somewhat counterintuitive but there is more going on than what we observe.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 22, 2019, 08:43:00 PM
He rotated the Earth 15 degrees per "hour". That's the agreed upon rate. He moved the Moon through it's orbit at 0.5 degrees per "hour". That's about right for the Moon's orbital speed, right?
Shadow moved as predicted.

So what are these "problems" you imagine could somehow exist with this? He made a scale model of the Earth and Moon and moved them at the appropriate rates. Are you suggesting he did not?

He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.

It doesn't matter if the Earth is spinning at 0 miles per hour or 1,000,000 miles per hour. What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.

Tom, answer these questions please.
1) How fast do we observe the Sun moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
2) How fast do we observe the Moon moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
3) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Sun moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)
4) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Moon moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)

Before you answer, I want to make it clear to all that I will take refusal to answer as evidence of pure trolling. Furthermore, since I've stated as much, we must all take refusal to answer to mean that you WANT me to conclude that you are trolling.

If you're not trolling, here's your chance. 4 simple questions. Answer them or just tell us you're trolling. Either way.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 22, 2019, 09:12:43 PM
He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.

- - - If you were to look at the Moon from the Sun, toward the Earth, it would pass in front of the Earth from left to right, then pass behind it from right to left.

So he has modelled this correctly, in moving the Moon from left to right. The object of the modelling is to apply the textbook, commonly-accepted attributes of the Sun/Earth/Moon system, to see if they match what people saw.  If you look at the model from the direction of the Sun, you have to then apply some thinking to how that would appear to you, looking back from the Earth toward the Moon and Sun

As I said a couple of posts ago, which way would you like the diagrams to be drawn? What do you feel would help you?

I can draw it from the POV of someone on Earth, from the top down, from the bottom up, from the side, from the Sun .... choose.  - - -


It doesn't matter if the Earth is spinning at 0 miles per hour or 1,000,000 miles per hour. What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.

Yes, you saw this in the T&D animation you posted earlier, an animation which matched what people saw in real life.

The Sun moves E-W across the sky for the observer
The Moon moves E-W across the sky for the observer, but slower

Net result - the Moon moves W-E across the face of the Sun BECAUSE it "travels slower than the Sun in the sky"

This is in accord with the direction the shadow took across the face of the Earth. You do see the connection, don't you?

The Moon passes W-E across the face of the Sun
The shadow of the Moon moves W-E across the face of the Earth

The observers, in the Northern Hemisphere, see the Moon and Sun in the Southern sky. Movement of the two from E-W is from left to right across their field of vision. If you look South, East is to your left, West to your right.

The net movement of the Moon across the face of the Sun is from the observer's right to their left, from W-E, so since the Moon is moving across the Sun this way, the shadow follows.

No?

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 22, 2019, 09:27:57 PM
Put another way;

According to what we observe:

- The Sun sets in the West.
- The Moon sets in the West.



The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky.

.... so the net result, if the Moon should get between the Earth and the Sun, is that the slower Moon moves W-E across the face of the sun, isn't it? They're both heading West, the Moon is slower, so the Moon will appear to move East in relation to the Sun.

The shadow moved W-E, in accord with the Moon's net motion across the face of the Sun.

No?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 22, 2019, 10:29:05 PM
Quote
What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky

Tom that is wholly and categorically wrong. For example at 00h UT on 23rd May the Moons RA on the sky is 19h 33m 49s. 24 hours later at 00h UT on 24th May the Moon RA is 20h 26m 26s. That is a eastwards difference of just under 1hr RA. 7mins less than 1 hour to be precise.

By comparison the Suns position on the sky at 00h UT on 23rd May is 03h 56m 53s. 24 hours later at 00h UT on 24th May it is 04h 0m 54s or about 4 minutes further eastwards of its position 24 hours earlier.

How do you interpret that as the Sun moving faster on the sky than the Moon?

All these videos and diagrams being presented here are all well and good but the positional data I am presenting here is the actual positions of the Sun and Moon on the sky over a 24 hour period. Real data. If we are going to have a meaningful debate about all this then at least let us get our facts right.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 22, 2019, 11:16:07 PM
Quote
What we observe is that the Moon travels slower in the sky compared to the sun. Both the video and the diagram in discussion are the same, and have the Moon overtaking the Sun in the sky. This is contrary to observation. We do not see the Moon traveling faster than the Sun in the sky. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky

Tom that is wholly and categorically wrong. For example at 00h UT on 23rd May the Moons RA on the sky is 19h 33m 49s. 24 hours later at 00h UT on 24th May the Moon RA is 20h 26m 26s. That is a eastwards difference of just under 1hr RA. 7mins less than 1 hour to be precise.

By comparison the Suns position on the sky at 00h UT on 23rd May is 03h 56m 53s. 24 hours later at 00h UT on 24th May it is 04h 0m 54s or about 4 minutes further eastwards of its position 24 hours earlier.

How do you interpret that as the Sun moving faster on the sky than the Moon?

All these videos and diagrams being presented here are all well and good but the positional data I am presenting here is the actual positions of the Sun and Moon on the sky over a 24 hour period. Real data. If we are going to have a meaningful debate about all this then at least let us get our facts right.

You're talking actual positions in their orbits, surely? Tom is talking about an observer's view from the Earth

If the Sun has made less Eastward progress than the Moon over a set period (4m as opposed to 53m), then it will be seen, from the POV of an observer on Earth, to be moving Westward across the sky faster than the Moon. Earth rotation causes both to rise in the Eastern sky and set in the West. The one which has moved furthest East will appear to move slower across the sky than the other.

No?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 22, 2019, 11:33:06 PM
No I am talking about the actual observed positions on the sky. We use RA and Dec to describe where to point telescopes.

1 hour RA equates to 15 degrees of sky along the celestial equator. Equivalent to longitude but in the sky. Measured from the 1st pointvof Aries although it is actually in Pisces now.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 23, 2019, 06:05:49 AM
No I am talking about the actual observed positions on the sky. We use RA and Dec to describe where to point telescopes.

1 hour RA equates to 15 degrees of sky along the celestial equator. Equivalent to longitude but in the sky. Measured from the 1st point of Aries although it is actually in Pisces now.

Measured Eastward?

So the object with the higher figure (Moon) has gone further Eastward than the other (Sun) over the same timeframe?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 23, 2019, 06:40:22 AM
Quote
So the object with the higher figure (Moon) has gone further Eastward than the other (Sun) over the same timeframe?

Precisely. Relative to the stars.

Yes RA is measured eastwards as we look at the sky.  If you point your telescope at the First Point of Aries (actually in Pisces as I said) and then set the setting circle on the mount so it reads 0h 00m and then move the telescope eastwards (to the left) by 30 degrees then the setting circle will read 2h 00m. And so on. 15 degrees to the west (right) of the FPA is 23hrs RA.

RA and Dec is a coordinate system. The North Celestial Pole (very near Polaris) is +90 degrees declination. The celestial equator is zero degrees declination. So at my latitude (51.5 degrees north) any star or other celestial body that has a declination of 51.5 degrees will pass directly overhead as it transits the meridian.

I have already described RA. 1hr of RA measured along the celestial equator equates to 15 degrees of sky. 15 x 24 = 360 degrees. The stars are fixed on the sky at timescales of days, months and several years so their RA and Dec readings are also fixed. But the Moon and Sun move around the sky (as do the planets, comets asteroids etc) relative to the stars and so their RA and Dec readings change on an hourly and daily basis. The Moon moves fastest against the stars (because it is nearest) and so it shows the biggest change in RA especially over the course of 24 hours.  That's what my figures posted yesterday showed.

You would expect the Moon to show the greatest movement east because it orbits the Earth every month or 27 days. So it has to complete one circuit of the sky in 27 days.  Just think in the space of two weeks it goes from being in line with the Sun (new Moon) to being opposite the Sun in the sky (full Moon.  That is an elongation change of 180 degees in 2 weeks. You will notice that the Moon moves further and further east w.r.t to the Sun each night after a new Moon. At new Moon Moonset and Sunset happen at the same time.  At first quarter Moon the Moon is roughly due south during early evening as the Sun is setting in the west.

In the morning sky when we have last quarter Moon, the Sun is now in the east while the Moon is visible to the south. In other words while the Moons phase waxes the Sun leads (to the west of) the Moon. After full Moon when the Moons phase is waning, so the Moon leads the Sun. That is why the Moon will always approach the Sun from the west and why an eclipse track (the shadow of the Moon) will move from west to east.  When you have studied these things in depth for a long time, you get to understand what is happening and why.

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 23, 2019, 01:14:23 PM
He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.
You keep on using my diagrams but you keep ignoring the bit of my email where I explained that in real life the moon is a lot further away.
Why do you keep doing that? This is roughly to scale:

(https://i.ibb.co/1dybTZH/Eclipse3.jpg)

At the start of the day as the earth rotates the moon is in the position shown at the bottom and it rises in the East - bottom dotted line.
12 hours later the moon sets in the West. Top dotted line.
Yes, the moon has moved in that time to the top position but in terms of angular velocity the earth rotates much faster than the moon goes around us, so we see it go around the sky. But if there is an eclipse then the absolute speed is a factor in what happens to the shadow. You'll see above I've put an arrow pointing upwards next to the earth. That indicates the earth rotating over a certain period of time. But the moon is going about twice as fast so in the same time the moon travels twice as far - so the arrow on the right is twice as long to indicate how far the moon travels.

Looking at 3 close ups, we get the diagrams I drew before. The moon is at the bottom of the arrow on the right. I can't show that on this scale but it's the same dotted line as in the above.
You are at the bottom of the arrow next to the earth so the shadow is to your west:

(https://i.ibb.co/CwTFH96/Eclipse4.jpg)

Now the moon is in the middle of the arrow on the right and you are in the middle of the arrow next to the earth so now you are in the eclipse:

(https://i.ibb.co/fv9hVTr/Eclipse5.jpg)

Now the moon is at the top of the arrow to the right and you are at the top of the arrow next to the earth. So now the shadow is to your east:

(https://i.ibb.co/FKtqzNx/Eclipse6.jpg)

So the shadow moves west to east but as you can see from the top diagram, the moon rises in the east and sets in the west.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Macarios on May 23, 2019, 01:50:41 PM
In RE model it looks like this:

Relative to the Sun:
Moon travels eastwards faster than the Earth's surface travels eastwards so Moon's shadow overtakes meridians.

Relative to the Earth:
Sun travels westwards faster than the Moon, and Moon falls behind, casting the shadow more and more to the east.

~~~~~

What is happening in the FE model?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 23, 2019, 02:19:45 PM
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 23, 2019, 02:34:32 PM
Since the daily observed motion east to west across the sky is pretty much (well no actually) entirely due to the Earths rotation, you would expect that the rate of movement would be essentially the same.  You are stating a difference of .5 degrees or 30 arc seconds. That for me is very similar so I would certainly agree with that. if anything a half degree difference in an hour is a tad on the generous side.

Let's remember that the time difference between Moon/Sun rise and set is also decided by the N/S variation of their respective paths against the celestial equator. For the northern hemisphere the Moon is in the sky much longer in winter and less time in summer.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: robinofloxley on May 23, 2019, 03:50:47 PM
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?

No, think of it this way: Imagine the earth/moon system viewed from directly above the north pole by a non-rotating observer. From this viewpoint, the earth is rotating anticlockwise at approximately 15 deg per hour. The moon's orbit is prograde, i.e. it orbits the earth in the same anticlockwise direction at approximately 0.5 degrees per hour. Now let's get the observer to rotate anticlockwise at 0.5 degrees per hour to match the moon's rotation. The moon appears to stand still. What's happened to the earth's apparent rotation? The observer is now rotating in the same direction, so the earth will appear to be rotating slower - 14.5 degrees per hour. To make it appear as though the earth is stationary, the observer now needs to increase their anticlockwise rotation speed by another 14.5 degrees per hour, at which point the moon will appear to be rotating clockwise at 14.5 degrees per hour from this vantage point.

What we normally see then is the moon crossing the sky at 14.5 degrees per hour and the sun crossing the sky at 15 degrees per hour, so on an eclipse day, the moon rises first, the sun then rises and slowly catches the moon (at 0.5 degrees per hour), overtakes it and will then set before it.

To be a bit more precise, "fixed" stars cross the sky east to west at approximately 15.041 degrees per hour (360 degrees divided by the length of the sidereal day - about 23.94 hours), the sun crosses the sky at approximately 15 degrees per hour 360 / 24 hours) and the moon approximately 14.492 degrees per hour.

I've said approximately because orbits aren't perfectly circular, they are slightly elliptical and obey Kepler's laws which mean they speed up and slow down slightly as they orbit. That's why we have the brilliantly named "equation of time" which essentially gives a plus or minus figure to add to a sundial time at different times of the year to match the time from a watch.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: spherical on May 23, 2019, 05:28:02 PM
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?

Yes, and that is why everyday the Moon rises around 52 minutes and 44 seconds later on East.   If today you have a full moon exactly on top at midnight, tomorrow it will be at the same spot almost at 00:53am, next day at 1:45am, and so on.  The Earth's rotation must be subtracted from any calculation, this is why the best way is to consider the observer sit over the Sun and seeing it as the heliocentric system as it is.   When looking from the Sun, doesn't matter if the Earth is rotating or not, the Moon will be orbiting Earth once per 27.3 days Earth's eastward direction, it WILL produce a project a conical shadow with apex at 380,000km, if the shadow hits Earth we call it solar eclipse, it will move eastward, no matter if the Earth is rotating or not. 

By the unquestionable fact Earth rotates 15°/h, and the Moon orbital speed of 27.3 days is 1022m/s, its projected shadow speed is always faster (eastward) than Earth's surface speed (463m/s on Equator line), depending on where the umbra hits Earth, a fixed observer on Earth could be under umbra for no more than 7 minutes and 32 seconds.

FE rely on a fixed huge Earth and small Sun/Moon rotating above. 

The smaller Umbra reported on RE was 120km in diameter, on FE it will create a problem as I reported in another post including formulas.  As the FE Sun and FE Moon has only 48km in diameter and the Sun is 4800km of altitude, the Moon creating the total eclipse must be significative lower than the Sun to projects a 120km umbra total shadow, also the Moon must be larger than 48km in diameter.  The final formula I calculated was "D*0.015 + 48km", where "D"  is the Moon's distance down below from the Sun in kilometers.  The Moon must have 48km plus 15 meters per kilometer far from the Sun, and it can not be very close to the Sun since its shadow (umbra) would cover the entire FE below, not only a spot. 

The formula is linear if a little away from the Sun. If the Moon is 4800km down from the Sun, it will on the Earth's ground, so, it needs to be 120km in diameter to cast a 120km diameter shadow, 4800*0.015+48 = 120. 

Worse, FE would have a solar eclipse every 27.3 days, since there is no way for the Moon closer and lower than the Sun to project its shadow out of FE, it will hit Earth down below - remember, FE is much larger than Sun/Moon. FE is 40 thousand kilometers in diameter, Sun/Moon is only 48 kilometers in diameter and only 8.33% of FE diameter in altitude.  I will produce a model with a graph showing how far horizontally and vertically the Moon from the Sun can be in order to still projecting its shadow over FE, of course it would happen every 27.3 days with low nodal lines, but in real world it is not like that. I would love to read FE optical math details about that. 
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 23, 2019, 05:35:42 PM
Since the daily observed motion east to west across the sky is pretty much (well no actually) entirely due to the Earths rotation, you would expect that the rate of movement would be essentially the same.  You are stating a difference of .5 degrees or 30 arc seconds. That for me is very similar so I would certainly agree with that. if anything a half degree difference in an hour is a tad on the generous side.
What I was trying to get at is that the moon's orbit around the earth is completely independent of the earth's rotation.  That is, if we were to magically stop the rotation of the earth, the sun would appear to stand still in the sky, but the moon would still cross the sky at a rate of about .5 degree per hour.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: spherical on May 23, 2019, 05:59:48 PM
What I was trying to get at is that the moon's orbit around the earth is completely independent of the earth's rotation.  That is, if we were to magically stop the rotation of the earth, the sun would appear to stand still in the sky, but the moon would still cross the sky at a rate of about .5 degree per hour.

Exactly, what I post previously.  Earth's rotation has nothing to do with the Moon's conical shadow projection path and eastward direction over Earth during an eclipse.  Earth's rotation only changes where (observers) physically the umbra hits and exposure time.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 23, 2019, 06:15:01 PM
Well I think we all know where we are at on this topic now.

What's happened to our OP? He seems to have gone strangely quiet all of a sudden. No feedback from the comments presented?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Bikini Polaris on May 23, 2019, 06:33:45 PM
You keep on using my diagrams but you keep ignoring the bit of my email where I explained that in real life the moon is a lot further away.
Why do you keep doing that?

Because Tom clearly doesn't understand how a diagram work. Guys let's address this elephant in the room, this is what Tom believes how an eclipse could work on FE:

Draw a diagram. I can see how this might work on a Flat Earth model where both the Sun and Moon are in motion:

(https://i.imgur.com/GTdrB6K.png)

Do you see how childish is that? On one side there's great science divulgation, on the other one a person who believes that two small spheres hovering over us could create eclipses like in his diagram!

Adding to that there's a communication problem, Tom doesn't interact with anyone (Tumeni and ICanScienceThat), apparently just trying to mess with words and minor details.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 23, 2019, 06:49:35 PM
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?

Fine, but the Moon's shadow has no orbital nor angular movement around the Earth. You cannot compare angular speeds of Earth and Moon to arrive at any conclusion about the shadow.

I refer you back to all my earlier posts, in sequence.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Macarios on May 23, 2019, 07:22:45 PM
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?

If Sun overtakes on their apparent travel towards west, can Moon be faster than Sun? Or Moon travels 14.5 degrees per hour and not 15.5? :)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 23, 2019, 07:44:19 PM
Quote from: markjo
Someone please check my math, but here's the way I see it.  Because of the earth's rotation, the sun appears to move across the sky from east to west at a rate of 15 degrees per hour.  The moon moves in its orbit around the earth from east to west at a rate of just over .5 degrees per hour (13 degrees per day).  This means that if you add the speed of the earth's rotation to the moon's orbital speed, then that means that the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.  Does that sound about right?
...
What I was trying to get at is that the moon's orbit around the earth is completely independent of the earth's rotation.  That is, if we were to magically stop the rotation of the earth, the sun would appear to stand still in the sky, but the moon would still cross the sky at a rate of about .5 degree per hour.

Right, but backwards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon
"When viewed from the north celestial pole (i.e., from the approximate direction of the star Polaris) the Moon orbits Earth anticlockwise and Earth orbits the Sun anticlockwise, and the Moon and Earth rotate on their own axes anticlockwise."

CCW looking down from the North... that means rotating from West to East.
Earth turns 15.0 degrees per hour towards the East (CCW)
Moon rotates 0.5 degrees per hour towards the East (CCW)
This makes the apparent speed of the Moon across our sky 14.5 degrees per hour - NOT 15.5.

I'd like to take this moment to call out how Tom has not attempted to show us this math.

Quote from: Tumeni
Fine, but the Moon's shadow has no orbital nor angular movement around the Earth. You cannot compare angular speeds of Earth and Moon to arrive at any conclusion about the shadow.
This is correct, but Tom's current complaint has to do with whether the Moon or the Sun is supposed to move faster across our sky. This is why I challenged him to answer those 4 simple questions. This is presumably why markjo was working this math.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2019, 10:03:08 PM
Quote from: ICanScienceThat
Tom, answer these questions please.
1) How fast do we observe the Sun moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
2) How fast do we observe the Moon moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
3) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Sun moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)
4) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Moon moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)

You have answered your own query above that the moon moves across the sky at 14.5 degrees per hour and that the sun moves at 15 degrees per hour. We can take your word for it.

He has the Moon moving faster than the sun in the sky to an observer on earth. He is moving the Moon in relation to the Sun to overtake it.
You keep on using my diagrams but you keep ignoring the bit of my email where I explained that in real life the moon is a lot further away.
Why do you keep doing that? This is roughly to scale:

(https://i.ibb.co/1dybTZH/Eclipse3.jpg)

At the start of the day as the earth rotates the moon is in the position shown at the bottom and it rises in the East - bottom dotted line.
12 hours later the moon sets in the West. Top dotted line.
Yes, the moon has moved in that time to the top position but in terms of angular velocity the earth rotates much faster than the moon goes around us, so we see it go around the sky. But if there is an eclipse then the absolute speed is a factor in what happens to the shadow. You'll see above I've put an arrow pointing upwards next to the earth. That indicates the earth rotating over a certain period of time. But the moon is going about twice as fast so in the same time the moon travels twice as far - so the arrow on the right is twice as long to indicate how far the moon travels.

Looking at 3 close ups, we get the diagrams I drew before. The moon is at the bottom of the arrow on the right. I can't show that on this scale but it's the same dotted line as in the above.
You are at the bottom of the arrow next to the earth so the shadow is to your west:

(https://i.ibb.co/CwTFH96/Eclipse4.jpg)

Now the moon is in the middle of the arrow on the right and you are in the middle of the arrow next to the earth so now you are in the eclipse:

(https://i.ibb.co/fv9hVTr/Eclipse5.jpg)

Now the moon is at the top of the arrow to the right and you are at the top of the arrow next to the earth. So now the shadow is to your east:

(https://i.ibb.co/FKtqzNx/Eclipse6.jpg)

So the shadow moves west to east but as you can see from the top diagram, the moon rises in the east and sets in the west.

Scale doesn't solve anything. The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:

(https://i.imgur.com/fnBwgi5.png)

Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 23, 2019, 10:09:44 PM
Quote from: ICanScienceThat
Tom, answer these questions please.
1) How fast do we observe the Sun moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
2) How fast do we observe the Moon moving across our sky? (In degrees per hour to the nearest 0.1 please)
3) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Sun moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)
4) In the video, how fast did the guy have the Moon moving across the model Earth's sky? (Same units)

You have answered your own query above that the moon moves across the sky at 14.5 degrees per hour and that the sun moves at 15 degrees per hour. We can take your word for it.

Thank you Tom. Halfway there. That's the answer to 1) and 2).Would you please answer 3) and 4)?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 23, 2019, 10:13:11 PM
Which motion are you referring to Tom? east-west motion due to Earth rotation or west-east motion due to orbit around the Earth in the case of the Moon or Earth orbit around the Sun in the case of the Sun?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 23, 2019, 10:42:08 PM
You have answered your own query above that the moon moves across the sky at 14.5 degrees per hour and that the sun moves at 15 degrees per hour. We can take your word for it.

Do you agree that whilst the Moon moves in a circle around the Earth, the shadow (which is a straight line cast out from the Moon along the imaginary line connecting Sun and Moon) does not?

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 23, 2019, 10:52:22 PM
The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:

(https://i.imgur.com/fnBwgi5.png)

Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.

That's EXACTLY what is shown in the three diagrams you just posted. The Moon moving slower, E to W, than the Sun. So the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the direction the shadow moved.

The first diagram has the Moon to the West of the Sun, the second shows them in the same spot, and the third shows the Moon East of the Sun. With both moving Westward, that means the Sun is moving Westward faster than the Moon, and the Moon is moving slower Westward.

The original diagrams also show this, all you've added is the direction to Sun, which doesn't show the originals to be wrong, which confirms the actual observation, and which accords with what I wrote above, and in previous posts.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2019, 10:55:47 PM
The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:

(https://i.imgur.com/fnBwgi5.png)

Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.

That's EXACTLY what is shown in the three diagrams you just posted. The Moon moving slower, E to W, than the Sun. So the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the direction the shadow moved.

No. According to that diagram the Moon is overtaking the Sun and leaving it behind. This is not possible if the Sun is traveling faster than the Moon in the sky.

The diagram shows the Moon getting ahead of the Sun to the observer.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 23, 2019, 11:00:56 PM
The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:

(https://i.imgur.com/fnBwgi5.png)

Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.

That's EXACTLY what is shown in the three diagrams you just posted. The Moon moving slower, E to W, than the Sun. So the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the direction the shadow moved.

No. According to that diagram the Moon is overtaking the Sun and leaving it behind. This is not possible if the Sun is traveling faster than the Moon in the sky.

The diagram shows the Moon getting ahead of the Sun to the observer.

Overtaking in what direction? Overtaking it east-to-west? Overtaking it west-to-east? As the Moon passes in front of the Sun, which side should it enter from? Which side should it exit?

That's why I asked you to answer the 4 simple questions. Please answer the questions.

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 23, 2019, 11:04:57 PM
The same problem is still there. You have the Moon traveling faster than the Sun to the observer and overtaking it in the sky:

(https://i.imgur.com/fnBwgi5.png)

Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.

That's EXACTLY what is shown in the three diagrams you just posted. The Moon moving slower, E to W, than the Sun. So the net motion of the Moon across the Sun is W to E, which accords with the direction the shadow moved.

No. According to that diagram the Moon is overtaking the Sun and leaving it behind. This is not possible if the Sun is traveling faster than the Moon in the sky.

The diagram shows the Moon getting ahead of the Sun to the observer.

No, the orange line is the direction to the sun, which is farther East than the black one to the Moon.
The middle one has both in the same direction
The third has the Moon farther East than the Sun.

The Sun started out farther East than the Moon and finished farther West.

With both moving Westward across the sky, the Moon is moving slower than the Sun across the sky, since its net motion is Eastward across the Sun

No?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 23, 2019, 11:13:05 PM
I asked you earlier, Tom - in what way would you LIKE to see it diagrammed?

What would help you the most? From observer POV on Earth? Top down? Side on? From the POV of the Sun?

I can do any of them, or all. Which would help you understand?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2019, 11:14:03 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/fnBwgi5.png)

Quote from: Tumeni
No, the orange line is the direction to the sun, which is farther East than the black one to the Moon.

Yes.

Quote from: Tumeni
The middle one has both in the same direction

Yes.

Quote from: Tumeni
The third has the Moon farther East than the Sun.

Yes

Quote from: Tumeni
The Sun started out farther East than the Moon and finished farther West.

Yes

Quote from: Tumeni
With both moving Westward across the sky, the Moon is moving slower than the Sun across the sky, since its net motion is Eastward across the Sun

No?

What you just described is that the Moon is traveling faster than the Sun. Since both bodies are traveling Westwards to the observer in your diagram, the only way that the Moon could surpass the Sun starting from one side to the other, is if it were traveling faster than it to the observer.

Draw a diagram rather than trying to talk your way out of it. The diagrams show the Moon surpassing the Sun in the sky to the observer.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 23, 2019, 11:19:09 PM
What you just described is that the Moon is traveling faster than the Sun. The Moon starts on the West side of the Sun and ends up on the East side of it.

Since both bodies are traveling Westwards to the observer, the only way the Moon can start on the West side of the Sun and end up on the East side of the Sun is if the Moon were traveling faster than the Sun.

Draw a diagram rather than trying to talk your way out of it. The geometry does not work. The diagrams show the Moon surpassing the Sun in the sky to the observer.

Once again, I point you to the video. No diagrams. No talking. You agreed that the Sun should move 15 degrees per hour towards the West. The Moon should move 14.5 degrees per hour towards the West. In the video, how fast did the guy have them moving? I await your answer.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 23, 2019, 11:30:06 PM
Once again, I point you to the video. No diagrams. No talking. You agreed that the Sun should move 15 degrees per hour towards the West. The Moon should move 14.5 degrees per hour towards the West. In the video, how fast did the guy have them moving? I await your answer.

Why should that matter? If you are curious about that then you should watch the video and find that out yourself. It doesn't matter how fast everything is moving. We see the Moon moving slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it. Any diagram depicting the Moon moving faster than the Sun to an observer and overtaking it is in error.

Please proceed to whine and call me a troll, and leave the discussion, because I didn't watch a video and report what someone did with their legos as you demanded.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 23, 2019, 11:52:02 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/fnBwgi5.png)

Quote from: Tumeni
No, the orange line is the direction to the sun, which is farther East than the black one to the Moon.

Yes.

Quote from: Tumeni
The middle one has both in the same direction

Yes.

Quote from: Tumeni
The third has the Moon farther East than the Sun.

Yes

Quote from: Tumeni
The Sun started out farther East than the Moon and finished farther West.

Yes

Quote from: Tumeni
With both moving Westward across the sky, the Moon is moving slower than the Sun across the sky, since its net motion is Eastward across the Sun

No?

What you just described is that the Moon is traveling faster than the Sun.

- - -  No, I did not.

Since both bodies are traveling Westwards to the observer in your diagram, the only way that the Moon could surpass the Sun starting from one side to the other, is if it were traveling faster than it to the observer.

- - but you just agreed the Sun moved westward quicker than the Moon, so the Sun is moving faster across the sky...

Draw a diagram rather than trying to talk your way out of it. A simple 1, 2, 3. The geometry does not work. And if you do get it to work, the position of the shadow for what you need in this scenario does not. The diagrams show the Moon surpassing the Sun in the sky to the observer.

I've done multiple diagrams already, please review my previous posts, including those where I put specific questions to you which went unanswered.   i've now asked you TWICE - in which way would you like it diagrammed to help you the most?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 23, 2019, 11:57:00 PM
Once again, I point you to the video. No diagrams. No talking. You agreed that the Sun should move 15 degrees per hour towards the West. The Moon should move 14.5 degrees per hour towards the West. In the video, how fast did the guy have them moving? I await your answer.

Why should that matter? If you are curious about that then you should watch the video and find that out yourself. It doesn't matter how fast everything is moving. We see the Moon moving slower than the Sun in the sky, not faster than it. Any diagram depicting the Moon moving faster than the Sun to an observer and overtaking it is in error.

Please proceed to whine and call me a troll, and leave the discussion, because I didn't watch a video and report what someone did with their legos as you demanded.

This isn't a discussion. That's just it. Every single poster who has posted in this thread has understood this just fine with one exception. That one exception CLAIMS he cannot understand it. Many different diagrams were drawn. The geometry was explained several different ways. Yet still he claims it's wrong. One of those explanations was a physical mock-up of the situation made to scale. Yet STILL this one person still claims it was wrong. He repeats over and over that it's wrong, but he flatly refuses to back that up.

You aren't discussing anything. You are simply denying.

The video CLEARLY shows the Moon being moved in perfect accordance to what we observe. It CLEARLY shows the shadow moving as we observe. If there's anything wrong with that video, the burden now falls to you to show how it is incorrect. The fact that you refuse to answer the questions tells us all that you KNOW this. A genuine person should have no issue answering a few simple questions. The only reason you refuse to answer is because you understand exactly what those answers indicate. They indicate that your position is incorrect.

Let me say it once more. If you REALLY think there's something wrong with that video, you should answer the questions because those answers will prove you right, and we'll all have to concede that Tom was right!

But you won't. Why is that? I'll tell you why. Because you've already worked out the implications of those answers. This indicates that you aren't being genuine with us.

Call that what you like. I call it trolling.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 24, 2019, 06:39:54 AM
Lots of discussions/arguments/disputes about diagrams and videos. As usual it is Tom against the rest.

I have telescopes equipped with cameras and a very accurate mount. I am not talking about 'off the shelf' cameras. I am taking about a CCD camera which is specifically designed for astronomical photography.  The mount is also specifically designed for astroimaging.

I can set that mount to track at sidereal rate (on the stars), lunar rate and solar rate. If I take an image of a star field with the mount set to sidereal rate, not surprisingly I get pinpoint stars over several minutes exposure time. If my mount were not tracking the stars at precisely the right rate, the stars would trail out into little lines rather than being nice pinpoints. So when I taken images of the Moon or the Sun I have to set the mount to either lunar or solar rate in order to prevent the Moon or Sun drifting out of view.

So is it not reasonable that if I were to take an image of a star field three times with the mount set to sidereal rate, then lunar rate and then solar rate over say 5 minutes and then measure the length of the star trails in the solar and lunar rate images, I will be able to verify whether the telescope is tracking faster when set at lunar or solar rate? I will then attach the images for all to see. The mount knows what time of year it is and what time of day (or night) it is so any variations in lunar and solar rate are automatically accounted for.

To me that is pretty good evidence. I don't know how the rest of you feel.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 24, 2019, 07:45:44 AM
Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.
Right. I think I've understood your confusion and I'll admit it's a bit counter-intuitive.
The moon does indeed move slower in the sky than the sun for the reason shown in my diagram. The moon is orbiting the earth in the same direction that the earth rotates so that motion reduces the net angular speed we observe of the moon.
Maybe these diagrams will help. The semi-circle represents the sun and moon's path across the sky. The key thing to understand is that the moon starts to the right or the west of the sun. During an eclipse the sun catches up with the moon and over-takes it.
Edit: I just realised I pasted the "sun" over the moon so when they overlap the sun is in front, in real life it's actually behind of course! Lazy of me. But it demonstrates the principle so I can't be bothered changing it now!

(https://i.ibb.co/qmY61Zq/Eclipse7.jpg)

So it's actually the sun which races past behind the moon BUT if you are fixed on the sun then it looks like it's the moon which is going across the sun's path.
It's a bit complicated because we're talking about relative motion but if you think about it you should understand what's going on.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 24, 2019, 08:16:36 AM
HI AATW,

If I am interpreting your diagram correctly, you are showing the view from the perspective of an observer facing south.  The watch the Sun rise, move east to west and then set again.  So your four diagrams collectively represent a timescale of just over half a day?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: robinofloxley on May 24, 2019, 08:28:38 AM
Lots of discussions/arguments/disputes about diagrams and videos. As usual it is Tom against the rest.

I have telescopes equipped with cameras and a very accurate mount. I am not talking about 'off the shelf' cameras. I am taking about a CCD camera which is specifically designed for astronomical photography.  The mount is also specifically designed for astroimaging.

I can set that mount to track at sidereal rate (on the stars), lunar rate and solar rate. If I take an image of a star field with the mount set to sidereal rate, not surprisingly I get pinpoint stars over several minutes exposure time. If my mount were not tracking the stars at precisely the right rate, the stars would trail out into little lines rather than being nice pinpoints. So when I taken images of the Moon or the Sun I have to set the mount to either lunar or solar rate in order to prevent the Moon or Sun drifting out of view.

So is it not reasonable that if I were to take an image of a star field three times with the mount set to sidereal rate, then lunar rate and then solar rate over say 5 minutes and then measure the length of the star trails in the solar and lunar rate images, I will be able to verify whether the telescope is tracking faster when set at lunar or solar rate? I will then attach the images for all to see. The mount knows what time of year it is and what time of day (or night) it is so any variations in lunar and solar rate are automatically accounted for.

To me that is pretty good evidence. I don't know how the rest of you feel.

To be honest, I think the discussion has moved beyond this point. I think everyone (including Tom) now seems to be willing to accept that the moon moves across the sky from east to west at around 14.5 deg/hour and the sun does the same, but faster at almost exactly 15 deg/hour, which means of course that the sun catches up and overtakes the moon during an eclipse.

What's confusing me now is exactly what Tom's problem is. I'm not sure if he's conceded the point that the sun overtaking the moon (and therefore the moon travelling across the sun's disk from west to east) implies the shadow will move west to east, or whether he's somehow disputing that. He does seem to be claiming that some (all?) of the diagrams offered showing exactly this seem to be showing the opposite - don't understand that either. It would be good to get some clarity from him as to what he accepts and what he doesn't.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 24, 2019, 08:48:36 AM
HI AATW,

If I am interpreting your diagram correctly, you are showing the view from the perspective of an observer facing south.  The watch the Sun rise, move east to west and then set again.  So your four diagrams collectively represent a timescale of just over half a day?
Yes, that's pretty much it.
The problem Tom is having is the moon is moving and the earth is rotating and it looks like it's the moon whizzing across the sun.
It's actually the sun overtaking the moon and going behind it during an eclipse.
It's a bit counter-intuitive and you do have to think about it a bit. Hopefully my diagrams will help.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Auditor on May 24, 2019, 09:46:41 AM
Tom I think it is time to call it quits on this one. We've done 8 pages of explaining it. If you genuinely don't believe it you should see if there were some words that were not understood and look them up in a dictionary and see if that helps.

If you get it now, just say so. It does not dissolve the value of the flat Earth theory, this is just a model of how it could be on the globe. You are welcome to formulate flat Earth version and regard that as truth. It is not a bad thing though to acknowledge that a round Earth theory is possible technically, it just means that it is a workable theory.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Bikini Polaris on May 24, 2019, 10:56:37 AM
HI AATW,

If I am interpreting your diagram correctly, you are showing the view from the perspective of an observer facing south.  The watch the Sun rise, move east to west and then set again.  So your four diagrams collectively represent a timescale of just over half a day?
Yes, that's pretty much it.
The problem Tom is having is the moon is moving and the earth is rotating and it looks like it's the moon whizzing across the sun.
It's actually the sun overtaking the moon and going behind it during an eclipse.
It's a bit counter-intuitive and you do have to think about it a bit. Hopefully my diagrams will help.

Ok, I'm getting it too what Tom doesn't get. If we imagine to watch Earth from the North in Space, and imagine it as an immovable round planet, the Sun would circle around it in 24 hours, but the Moon would be slower, doing it in 24 hours and 50 minutes (they'd be both travelling incredily fast in Space). During an Eclipse, the shadow on Earth would be caused by a faster Sun, making its direction going from East to West. AATW diagrams well show this.

Of course this wouldn't give Lunar phases, so it's quite wrong. Actually I do agree with Auditor here.

However I learned something: Tom, if we know the Sun and Moon diameters are 32 miles, and we know that more or less they're at 1000 miles hovering over FE. And we also know the speed of this Eclipse shadow, going from East to West, cannot we also easily compute in precisely the distance of the Sun relative to the Moon? I mean, it really looks like an easy trigonometric exercise, what do you think?

Edit: thanks spherical
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 24, 2019, 11:01:35 AM
Ok this is my final post on this topic. Having done some working out using Starry Night software this morning, my conclusion is as follows:

Measuring by azimuth of the horizon circle over a 6 hour period on 3rd June (next new Moon date) the Moon moves through 123 degrees (westward) compared the to the Suns 132 degrees.  So the Moon has moved through a smaller angle than the Sun.

Measured by Right Ascension however, so relative to the stars and over the same 6 hour time period, the Suns RA changes by just 1min of RA. The Moon moves through 11.3 minutes of RA.

So if you are using geographic coordinates (Azimuth) then the Sun moves quicker than the Moon across the sky from E to W but if you are using celestial coordinates (RA) then the Moon is unquestionably moving quicker.

The Moons orbit around the Earth relative to the Earths rotation is causing the Moon to appear to 'drag its heals' across the sky. This effect is lessened for the Sun because of course the Sun is a lot further away and is not in orbit around the Earth so the dragging effect does not apply.

So yes, AATW, when you say

Quote
It's actually the sun overtaking the moon and going behind it during an eclipse.

You are absolutely right.

Even after so many years of sky watching, I hadn't really looked into this sort of thing in any great detail and first impressions tell you that the Moon must be quicker because it is closer.  However I am quite happy to admit when my initial impressions were actually not quite right. It is always good to learn something :-)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: spherical on May 24, 2019, 02:21:24 PM
Ok, I'm getting it too what Tom doesn't get. If we imagine to watch Earth from the North in Space, and imagine it as an immovable round planet, the Sun would circle around it in 24 hours, but the Moon would be slower, doing it in 23 hours and 10 minutes (they'd be both travelling incredily fast in Space). During an Eclipse, the shadow on Earth would be caused by a faster Sun, making its direction going from East to West.

And of course, this is not what happens (23:10h is faster than 24h, not slower).
Even in FE, the Moon does not make a full turn in 23 hours and 10 minutes, it will be slower (as you said), will take 24 hours and 51 minutes.
But this has nothing to do with the movement of the eclipse shadow time and direction over Earth.

Like I post before, on RE the Earth could be stopped, the eclipse shadow would move eastward at 1002 m/s, moon orbital speed.
Even in FE, the Sun and Moon moves westward (east->west), as the sun moves faster, the moon shadow moves west->east.
It is really difficult to understand why this topic took 8 pages already.

Some people are confusing what they can understand, with simple orbital mechanical optical facts.

I use to say to my students, by simple proven fact water is a liquid, you can lucubrate, discuss, theorize, make papers, try to disprove, water calmly will continue to be a liquid.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 02:42:22 PM
You guys can never agree with each other. One guy says the sun is traveling faster, another says it's the scale causing it, another says it's the rotation. Contradicting explanations and diagrams, etc.

Same thing every thread. Throw out enough onto the wall and hope something sticks.

Perhaps you could address what there is, rather than glossing over multiple posts? 

I've drawn you multiple diagrams, which you seem to ignore, and then when I post something else in words, you say "Draw a diagram". I've done that. More than once. They're in the thread, and you seem to ignore them. 

I've asked you twice - which way do you actually WANT it diagrammed that would help you understand it? You haven't answered. Top down? Side view? 

Do you actually WANT to understand it?

You started off by saying you don't understand it.

If you genuinely do want to understand, tell me how I/we can best explain it to you such that you will understand.

If you don't actually want to understand, why are you asking in the first place?


Do. you. genuinely. not. understand?   Y/N
Do. you. want. to. understand?    Y/N
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 02:48:20 PM
Why should I believe you when I can believe markjo that the moon is traveling at 15.5 degrees per hour? You all seem to believe something different.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 02:51:47 PM
Why should I believe you when I can believe markjo that the sun is traveling at 15.5 degrees per hour? You all seem to believe something different.

And again, you strike off at a tangent.

Do. you. genuinely. not. understand?   Y/N
Do. you. want. to. understand?    Y/N

Direct answers to the above, please.

If I directly address what you post, as I have done numerous times above, could you respond in kind and directly address my posts, not distract by referencing those of others?

If you don't understand, what method of illustration would you prefer to help you understand?

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 03:07:08 PM
Markjo doesn't sound on board with all of the ideas here. He says that the Moon moves from East to West at a rate of 15.5 degrees per hour, which is faster than the Sun, and that you are wrong in interpretation.

Quote from: markjo
the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 03:23:29 PM
Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.
Right. I think I've understood your confusion and I'll admit it's a bit counter-intuitive.
The moon does indeed move slower in the sky than the sun for the reason shown in my diagram. The moon is orbiting the earth in the same direction that the earth rotates so that motion reduces the net angular speed we observe of the moon.
Maybe these diagrams will help. The semi-circle represents the sun and moon's path across the sky. The key thing to understand is that the moon starts to the right or the west of the sun. During an eclipse the sun catches up with the moon and over-takes it.
Edit: I just realised I pasted the "sun" over the moon so when they overlap the sun is in front, in real life it's actually behind of course! Lazy of me. But it demonstrates the principle so I can't be bothered changing it now!

(https://i.ibb.co/qmY61Zq/Eclipse7.jpg)

So it's actually the sun which races past behind the moon BUT if you are fixed on the sun then it looks like it's the moon which is going across the sun's path.
It's a bit complicated because we're talking about relative motion but if you think about it you should understand what's going on.

This depiction seems to work if we use a slow moving Moon and the first person perspective of the observer. Thanks AATW for clarifying.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 03:27:11 PM
Posted this already, but here's the top-down depiction of the Earth/Moon system, showing the Moon going around the Earth, and the shadow cast straight out, in a manner that DOES NOT ROTATE around the Earth.

(https://i.imgur.com/EFQP1Ys.jpg)

Even if the Earth wasn't there, and the Moon was rotating around a point in space, the same would still apply

(https://i.imgur.com/2DZMD6h.jpg)


Look at this side-on, from the perspective of an observer between Earth and Sun, along the line of sunlight, and it would look like this;

(https://i.imgur.com/3ELAvFV.jpg)

Note that the overall movement of the Earth and Moon around the Sun is ignored, it is assumed the observer keeps Earth in the centre of his/her field of vision;
The Moon starts out at New Moon, the time of the eclipse, in front of the Earth. This is zero degrees (or 360).

It moves out to first quarter, which, if viewed from the Sun, would be to the right of the Earth. The line between Earth and Moon would be perpendicular (at 90 degrees) to the line between Earth and Sun

It then moves behind the Earth, to full moon at 180 degrees, and out to third quarter, which from the viewpoint from the Sun would be to the left of the Earth at 270 degrees. It then moves back to New Moon, zero or 360 degrees

The apparent motion of the Moon from this perspective would be side-to-side. It would cover each arc of, say 10 degrees, in the same time as any other arc of 10 degrees, it has broadly linear speed in its orbit. However, from the viewpoint of the Sun, simple geometry tells us that it would appear to slow to zero at each quarter, before changing direction side-to-side.

(https://i.imgur.com/AU0RJah.jpg)

There is no orbital or rotational aspect around the Earth for the shadow. The shadow of the Moon will be invisible from the Sun, as it is cast AWAY from the Sun, and will be behind the Moon. The speed of the shadow, across an imaginary line connecting first and third quarters through the Earth would be zero at first quarter, at its highest at full moon, zero at third quarter, and at its highest again at new moon. The portion of the Moon's orbit where the shadow will cross the Earth is a small portion of the central area around zero or 360 degrees.

Do you understand this so far, Tom? We're ONLY looking at it from two points of view - above the Earth/Moon system, and from the viewpoint of the Sun. This is NOT considering the viewpoint of an observer on Earth.

 

Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 03:28:43 PM
Markjo doesn't sound on board with all of the ideas here. He says that the Moon moves from East to West at a rate of 15.5 degrees per hour, which is faster than the Sun, and that you are wrong in interpretation.

Quote from: markjo
the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.

And again, you strike off at a tangent.

If I directly address what you post, as I have done numerous times above, could you respond in kind and directly address my posts, not distract by referencing those of others?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 03:32:53 PM
I don't think anyone was arguing that shadows would rotate.

I'm on board with AATW's explanation. It seems that you need to talk to Markjo about your disagreements with him.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 03:33:44 PM
This depiction seems to work if we use a slow moving Moon and the first person perspective of the observer. Thanks AATW for clarifying.


So you agree that both Sun and Moon are moving Westward, and that the Moon's motion across the face of the Sun, since it is crossing your sky slower than the Sun, is Eastward?

If the Moon crossed the Sun Westward, it would be moving across your sky faster than the Sun, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 03:35:31 PM
I'm on board with AATW's explanation. It seems that you need to talk to Markjo about your disagreements with him.

I don't see any contradiction between what I say and what he said. He's talking about the angular rate of the Moon, I'm pointing out that the Moon's shadow has no angular rate.

Do. you. genuinely. not. understand?   Y/N
Do. you. want. to. understand?    Y/N

If you don't understand, what method of illustration would you prefer to help you understand?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 04:34:50 PM
Quote
I don't see any contradiction between what I say and what he said.

The Moon doesn't move faster than the Sun in the sky. If that is what you believe then you agree with markjo and disagree with ICST who says that the Moon moves at 14.5 degrees per hour. In which case you should talk to him.

Read AATW's explanation. He has a slow moving Moon, since the Moon travels in the direction of the Earth's rotation in RET, and a static Sun. From the POV of the observer the Sun overtakes the Moon. The motions are counter-intuitive, but explainable in RET.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 05:00:28 PM
Quote
I don't see any contradiction between what I say and what he said.

The Moon doesn't move faster than the Sun in the sky.

- - - - I never said that it did, from an observer's perspective. It crosses the sky slower than the Sun. In terms of linear velocity, it moves faster than any point on Earth's surface, but that's a different perspective.

If that is what you believe then you agree with markjo and disagree with ICST who says that the Moon moves at 14.5 degrees per hour. In which case you should talk to him.

- - - Please address directly what I say, not what others say. The Moon may well move at the angular rates you describe, but we're eventually going to talk about the Moon's shadow, IF you actually engage with me, and the shadow has no rotational or angular motion around the Earth.

Read AATW's explanation. He has a slow moving Moon, since the Moon travels in the direction of the Earth's rotation in RET, and a static Sun. From the POV of the observer the Sun overtakes the Moon. The motions are counter-intuitive, but explainable in RET.

Again, please address what I write, starting over with #169.

You're the one who said at the beginning of this thread that you did. not. understand.  A few posts later you admitted "I must be doing something wrong".

I'm happy to help you understand, I'm happy to tell you where you went wrong. What would help you? Sowing discord amongst I and others will not help you understand.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 05:09:32 PM
No one has stated that the shadow rotates to point at the earth in RET. You appear to be arguing with yourself.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 05:10:45 PM
No one has stated that the shadow rotates to point at the earth. You appear to be arguing with yourself.

If that's the case, then there's no value in quoting angular rates of progress of the Moon (as you just did in your last post, barely a few minutes ago, and on page 1) to analyse the progress of the shadow.

I told you then, this was where you were going wrong, and here we are, 9 pages later...

Could you address what I asked in #169, or any of the direct questions I put to you earlier which went unanswered?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 05:19:13 PM
No one has stated that the shadow rotates to point at the earth. You appear to be arguing with yourself.

If that's the case, then there's no value in quoting angular rates of progress of the Moon (as you just did in your last post, barely a few minutes ago, and on page 1) to analyse the progress of the shadow.

No one is talking about the possibility of the shadow rotating in RET except you.

Quote
I told you then, this was where you were going wrong, and here we are, 9 pages later...

Many pages later and you are still talking to yourself about rotating shadows, when no one else is talking about that.

Quote
Could you address what I asked in #169, or any of the direct questions I put to you earlier which went unanswered?

I saw you talking about rotating shadows in RET and skimmed past it. No one has made that argument.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 05:23:22 PM
No one is talking about the possibility of the shadow rotating in RET except you.

- - - I'm saying explicitly that the Moon's shadow cannot rotate around the Earth. How does this equate to me discussing it as a "possibility"?     I've insisted from page 1 that it does. not. do. this.

You're the one who started talking about angular and rotational rates on page 1, and that's where I started to correct you.

I saw you talking about rotating shadows and skimmed past it. No one has made that argument.

- - I've been posting pertinent questions to you since page 1 or 2, and you have, by your own admission here, skimmed (some of) them.

First you ask folks to help you understand (page 1), then you ask "Where am I going wrong?" (also page 1), and now you admit you've been ignoring responses to what you asked.

Are you confused about what you want? What DO you want?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 05:27:41 PM
- - - I'm saying explicitly that the Moon's shadow cannot rotate around the Earth.

No one said that it did or could in RET. You are having a conversation with yourself.

Discussing the angular rotation of the earth's rotation or the angular rotation rate of the moon or the sun in the sky is not arguing that the shadow can rotate in dimension to always point at the earth. You have concocted your own argument of which no one is discussing.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 05:30:14 PM
- - - I'm saying explicitly that the Moon's shadow cannot rotate around the Earth.

No one said that it did or could in RET.

Discussing the angular rotation of the earth's rotation or the angular rotation rate of the moon or the sun in the sky is not arguing that the shadow can rotate in dimension to always point at the earth. You have concocted your own argument of which no one is discussing.

You suggested it in reply #12, and then wondered where you were going wrong.

No?

If you skimmed my reply #15, please revisit that.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 05:53:30 PM
- - - I'm saying explicitly that the Moon's shadow cannot rotate around the Earth.

No one said that it did or could in RET.

Discussing the angular rotation of the earth's rotation or the angular rotation rate of the moon or the sun in the sky is not arguing that the shadow can rotate in dimension to always point at the earth. You have concocted your own argument of which no one is discussing.

You suggested it in reply #12, and then wondered where you were going wrong.

No?

If you skimmed my reply #15, please revisit that.

Post #12 is discussing whether the moon outruns the surface of the earth and what it sees from its vantage point, and gives an example of a static moon. It says nothing about whether the shadow will always point at the earth in all situations. You have made up your own arguments. We are on post 182 now, and has been zero ongoing discussion of the shadow always pointing at the earth. We have been talking explicitly about the diagrams of the shadow moving past the earth.

You are arguing with yourself and drawing up diagrams which have nothing to do with the discussion in the thread.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 06:04:41 PM
You are arguing with yourself and drawing up diagrams which have nothing to do with the discussion in the thread.

... and you appear to be doing your best to derail the thread by not actually engaging with the questions I put to you.

You started out with "I don't understand why"

Are you saying you do now understand why?

Shortly after that, you wondered where you were going wrong

Are you saying that you now understand where you went wrong?

Or do you just want to quibble over and over how, when you quote an angular rate of the Moon, and wonder how that applies to the shadow, it's appropriate or not to point out where. you. are. going. wrong.  ???
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 06:24:31 PM
You are arguing with yourself and drawing up diagrams which have nothing to do with the discussion in the thread.

... and you appear to be doing your best to derail the thread by not actually engaging with the questions I put to you.

You started out with "I don't understand why"

Are you saying you do now understand why?

Shortly after that, you wondered where you were going wrong

Are you saying that you now understand where you went wrong?

Or do you just want to quibble over and over how, when you quote an angular rate of the Moon, and wonder how that applies to the shadow, it's appropriate or not to point out where. you. are. going. wrong.  ???

Again, we have been explicitly discussing the diagrams of the shadow moving past the earth, without disagreement on that premise. What you thought or interpreted has not been discussed. There has been little discussion of rotating shadows in RET, except by you. At this point you mainly appear to be spamming the forum.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 24, 2019, 06:45:17 PM
Markjo doesn't sound on board with all of the ideas here. He says that the Moon moves from East to West at a rate of 15.5 degrees per hour, which is faster than the Sun, and that you are wrong in interpretation.

Quote from: markjo
the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.

Cherry picking as usual and ignoring a crucial bit:
Someone please check my math...

Someone did check my math and showed me that I was close but had it backwards.  Even so, that's still more than you've tried to explain from an FE perspective.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 08:11:29 PM
Again, we have been explicitly discussing the diagrams of the shadow moving past the earth, without disagreement on that premise.

- - - That's what I've been discussing too, but, as you admitted earlier, you "skimmed" my earlier posts. Read them again, in full, and you might see that.

You cannot discuss the movement of the shadow in angular terms, which is what you did on page 1.


There has been little discussion of rotating shadows in RET, except by you. At this point you mainly appear to be spamming the forum.

I disagree with you. I'm responding to what you say. You say "Tumeni did this, Tumeni did that". I disagree with you, and respond in terms of "I did not do that".

How can this be termed "spam"?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 08:27:32 PM
You started out with "I don't understand why"

Do you "understand why" now?  Y/N
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 09:55:19 PM
AATW explained how it can work, keeping the moon slower than the sun and the bodies moving in the correct directions. You seem to go back and fourth on whether you agree with markjo's fast Moon or not, and have difficulty following what the discussion is about.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: tellytubby on May 24, 2019, 10:14:40 PM
My own investigation has shown me how and why the Sun moves that little bit faster across the sky. I simulated the motion of both for the 3rd June which is the next new Moon date and I took positional data for both the Sun and the Moon for a few hours either side of the actual new Moon time.   That was relevant because at the 11.02UT the Moon will be directly below the Sun in the sky and hence they will share the same azimuth.

As this discussion has progressed the general acceptance has been about the Moon orbiting the Earth and the Earth orbiting the Sun.  Does that then mean there is also a general acceptance then that the heliocentic model is correct?  Most flat Earthers seem to believe in geocentricism.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 10:22:03 PM
It just means that this wouldn't be geometrical problem for RET.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 11:17:13 PM
AATW explained how it can work, keeping the moon slower than the sun and the bodies moving in the correct directions. You seem to go back and fourth on whether you agree with markjo's fast Moon or not, and have difficulty following what the discussion is about.

Are you saying you now understand why the Moon's shadow went from West to East? How it does work, not how it "can"

How can you tell whether I follow it or not, when you admit you "skimmed" through my posts? 
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 24, 2019, 11:20:11 PM
AATW explained how it can work, keeping the moon slower than the sun and the bodies moving in the correct directions. You seem to go back and fourth on whether you agree with markjo's fast Moon or not, and have difficulty following what the discussion is about.
It's already been shown that I was mistaken about the moon moving faster than the sun.  Time to move on, Tom.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 11:24:20 PM
Post #12 is discussing whether the moon outruns the surface of the earth and what it sees from its vantage point, and gives an example of a static moon.

This is post #12

Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph
Circumference of Moon's orbit: 1,423,000 miles
Circumference of Moon's orbit / 360 degrees = 3952.77 miles per degree
2,288 (Speed of Moon in mph) * 12 = 47433.24 miles around the earth over 12 hours
47433.24 miles / 3952.77 miles per degree = 12 degrees around the earth in 12 hours

So the Moon is slower than the Earth's rotation. After 12 hours the moon would make an arc 12 degrees around the Earth, while after 12 hours a point on the Earth would turn 180 degrees.

Surely, I must be doing something wrong?


In which case, if the Moon is slower than a point on the Earth's surface, then the path of the eclipse should travel from East to West, as if the Moon were static over the earth while the earth turned beneath it.

You are/were conflating what the Moon does with what the eclipse shadow does.

Post #12 ... says nothing about whether the shadow will always point at the earth in all situations.

Did anyone say that it did? I didn't.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 24, 2019, 11:28:17 PM
Post #12 is discussing whether the moon outruns the surface of the earth and what it sees from its vantage point, and gives an example of a static moon.

This is post #12

Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph
Circumference of Moon's orbit: 1,423,000 miles
Circumference of Moon's orbit / 360 degrees = 3952.77 miles per degree
2,288 (Speed of Moon in mph) * 12 = 47433.24 miles around the earth over 12 hours
47433.24 miles / 3952.77 miles per degree = 12 degrees around the earth in 12 hours

So the Moon is slower than the Earth's rotation. After 12 hours the moon would make an arc 12 degrees around the Earth, while after 12 hours a point on the Earth would turn 180 degrees.

Surely, I must be doing something wrong?


In which case, if the Moon is slower than a point on the Earth's surface, then the path of the eclipse should travel from East to West, as if the Moon were static over the earth while the earth turned beneath it.

You are/were conflating what the Moon does with what the eclipse shadow does.

It says nothing about the eclipse shadow.

We have not been talking about the shadow of the eclipse always turning to face the earth. You have made that argument up in your head. The next posts explicitly talk about the moon's shadow traveling over the earth, and there is no argument that the eclipse shadow needs to be rotating. You seem to be spamming with irrelevancies.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 24, 2019, 11:33:05 PM
Post #12 is discussing whether the moon outruns the surface of the earth and what it sees from its vantage point, and gives an example of a static moon.

This is post #12

Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph
Circumference of Moon's orbit: 1,423,000 miles
Circumference of Moon's orbit / 360 degrees = 3952.77 miles per degree
2,288 (Speed of Moon in mph) * 12 = 47433.24 miles around the earth over 12 hours
47433.24 miles / 3952.77 miles per degree = 12 degrees around the earth in 12 hours

So the Moon is slower than the Earth's rotation. After 12 hours the moon would make an arc 12 degrees around the Earth, while after 12 hours a point on the Earth would turn 180 degrees.

Surely, I must be doing something wrong?


In which case, if the Moon is slower than a point on the Earth's surface, then the path of the eclipse should travel from East to West, as if the Moon were static over the earth while the earth turned beneath it.

You are/were conflating what the Moon does with what the eclipse shadow does.

It says nothing about the eclipse shadow.

- - But it should. That's the whole point, you're looking at what the Moon does, when you should be looking at what the shadow does

We have not been talking about the shadow of the eclipse always turning to face the earth. You have made that argument up in your head.

Neither have I. Whenever anyone has cited an angular movement of the Moon in relation to the Earth, I've been at pains to point out that they're considering what the Moon does, and that the shadow DOES NOT DO THIS. 

The next posts explicitly talk about the moon's shadow traveling over the earth, and there is no argument that the eclipse shadow needs to be rotating. Stop spamming with irrelevancies.

Answer the questions, then, if you want to bring the discussion to a close. You seem to be trying to do everything but this.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 25, 2019, 12:01:36 AM
Quote
It says nothing about the eclipse shadow.

- - But it should. That's the whole point, you're looking at what the Moon does, when you should be looking at what the shadow does

But it doesn't. We were talking about whether the Moon outruns the surface of the Earth or not. The Moon needs to see the Earth move in the right direction and the moon needs set in the right direction, seeing the West Coast last. We begun with an assessment of whether the Moon is setting in the right direction with the explanations given. Remember? We aren't even yet talking about the possible shadow dynamics there. An argument was not made that the shadow needs to rotate to face the earth at all times. You are reading what you wish and are making faulty assumptions and arguments. Clearly, if it was thought that the shadow needed to rotate to face the earth at all times and situations that argument would have been made when discussing the shadow moving across the earth. It was not.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 25, 2019, 08:32:49 AM
We aren't even yet talking about the possible shadow dynamics there.

- - You were talking about the shadow in your first post, and referring to the eclipse path in page 1. What is the eclipse path, if not the shadow of the Moon?


An argument was not made that the shadow needs to rotate to face the earth at all times. You are reading what you wish and are making faulty assumptions and arguments.

- - I disagree.


Clearly, if it was thought that the shadow needed to rotate to face the earth at all times and situations that argument would have been made when discussing the shadow moving across the earth. It was not.

... and it took you 10 pages to realise. Perhaps you shouldn't have "skimmed" my posts after all...

Nobody else seems to think I was off-topic. If I was way off, dontcha think others would have said so too? 

For 8 or 9 pages, I've been actively been trying to help you, since you expressed a lack of understanding from page 1 onwards. When you asked "Where am I going wrong", I provided 3 or 4 posts with explanation. When you didn't like my explanation in words, and demanded "Draw a diagram", I explicitly asked you "What kind of diagram would help you most", and even provided some more, when this question went unanswered. But for the last two pages or so you've been picking at the minutiae of what was said to insist that what I responded to from the outset was not what you really meant. Why are you doing this? 


Do you now understand why the solar eclipse path went from West to East?


We can close the thread now if we can establish whether or not the contributions from myself and others have answered your original questions. Have they?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 25, 2019, 03:57:29 PM
Quote
For 8 or 9 pages, I've been actively been trying to help you, since you expressed a lack of understanding from page 1 onwards.

We can close the thread now if we can establish whether or not the contributions from myself and others have answered your original questions. Have they?

You seem to have difficulty understanding the thread, the discussion, and the subject-matter. I don't see anyone saying "look at Tunemi's drawings/explanations, he explained it!". You have had zero support. No one seems to care about your drawings or explanations. You continuously make "explanations" for subjects which are not argued or discussed, here and elsewhere.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 25, 2019, 05:11:58 PM
You seem to have difficulty understanding the thread, the discussion, and the subject-matter.

- - - Yet you are the one who started it off with "Please help my understand" and "Where am I going wrong", and I'm the one who responded with offer of help, such that you might understand it. Now you insist the situation is reversed. Why are you doing this?


I don't see anyone saying "look at Tunemi's drawings/explanations, he explained it!". You have had zero support. No one seems to care about your drawings or explanations, unfortunately. You continuously make "explanations" for subjects which are not argued or discussed, here and elsewhere.

You admitted you basically didn't see my posts, as you had 'skimmed' them, so does it make any difference whether or not you see people supporting me or not? How do we know you didn't 'skim' the thread when you looked for them, too?

However, it seems you no longer want to talk about the topic at hand. You just want to take issue, 10 pages in, with what I've been saying since page 1, even though you didn't protest about it then..... 

I ask you if you now understand, you try to claim the last word with multiple critiques of how you think I've contributed to the thread, without answering the question. Why are you doing this?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 25, 2019, 05:42:10 PM
Quote
For 8 or 9 pages, I've been actively been trying to help you, since you expressed a lack of understanding from page 1 onwards.

We can close the thread now if we can establish whether or not the contributions from myself and others have answered your original questions. Have they?

You seem to have difficulty understanding the thread, the discussion, and the subject-matter. I don't see anyone saying "look at Tunemi's drawings/explanations, he explained it!". You have had zero support. No one seems to care about your drawings or explanations. You continuously make "explanations" for subjects which are not argued or discussed, here and elsewhere.
Tumeni has been entirely accurate with every one of his diagrams and explanations. So, please look at Tumeni's drawings/explanations, he explained it!.

I think what I've thunk all along. Tom is simply trying to distract and divert from anything relevant to answering his original question. Let me remind you:
Help me understand the direction of the Solar Eclipse.

According to what we observe:

- The Sun sets in the West.
- The Moon sets in the West.
...
"The Earth rotates counter-clockwise on its axis (picture a spinning top). Because of this motion, celestial bodies such as the Sun, Moon and stars appear to rise in the eastern sky and set in the western sky."
...
If we observe the earth from the perspective of the sun, from a static point over the earth, the shadow of the moon would appear on the East Coast first and end on the West Coast.
...
When pressed for an answer, some have that it started in the West because the Moon is traveling around the Earth from West to East. However, if we have the Moon rotating around the Earth faster than Earth's rotation, then we should see the Moon set in the East every day.

How does this work?

So there is no doubt whatsoever that Tom is conflating the Moon's linear motion (and thus the shadow) with the Moon's angular speed. That's the entire premise behind Tom's question. Here it is once more: "...if we have the Moon rotating around the Earth faster than Earth's rotation, then we should see the Moon set in the East every day."

As Tumeni has been trying to explain, Tom is conflating linear motion with angular motion. To be clear
1) The location of the Moon in our sky is determined by its relative angular speed (degrees per hour).
2) The location of the Moon's shadow on our ground is determined by its relative linear speed (miles per hour).

It's unclear whether or not Tom is on board with this distinction at this point. The fact Tom's stance remains unclear tells you everything you need to know.

Tom is not trying to prove that the eclipse shows a flaw in the geometry. He's making no effort to show that.
Tom is not trying to understand how the eclipse works. Someone trying to understand asks clarifying questions, and they are willing to cooperate in the process by answering questions themselves.

So what is Tom trying to do? Tom's posts form a pattern. No matter what you post, Tom somehow doesn't understand. When shown a physical model, he still claims it isn't possible. Although he is clearly conflating angular speed with linear speed, he insists that you're off-topic by trying to explain that. When asked direct questions, he doesn't answer. Instead, he distracts and deflects.
It appears that he is merely trying to frustrate his opponents.

I dare say, that's the best debate tactic available for this position. If I were to persist with a point that is so clearly defeated, I don't think I could do any better.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 25, 2019, 05:53:17 PM
The ability to get this to work in RET merely  means that astronomers had this conversation hundreds of years ago to get it to work.

You don't think astronomers ever questioned why the eclipse travels in the way that it does and how they can make a model or explain it in a way that makes any sense? Confirmation bias. Little evidence of any matter.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ChrisTP on May 25, 2019, 06:24:03 PM
The ability to get this to work in RET merely  means that astronomers had this conversation hundreds of years ago to get it to work.

You don't think astronomers ever questioned why the eclipse travels in the way that it does and how they can make a model or explain it in a way that makes any sense? Confirmation bias. Little evidence of any matter.
For the record no one 'got this to work', it just works. Maybe people took the time to understand why it happens and came to the same conclusion you must have by now. You're very quick to assume people have fabricated a round earth as opposed to simply discovering it to be the way it is.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Rama Set on May 25, 2019, 07:25:12 PM
Tom, look at Tumeni’s diagrams and explanations! He explained it!
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 25, 2019, 07:41:51 PM
Quote
Tom, look at Tumeni’s diagrams and explanations! He explained it!

Too late.

Quote
For the record no one 'got this to work', it just works

An interesting claim, that no one ever worked on the round earth theory to try and get things to work. Did God tell them about it then?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 25, 2019, 07:53:31 PM
Quote
Tom, look at Tumeni’s diagrams and explanations! He explained it!

Too late.


Why?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ChrisTP on May 25, 2019, 07:59:26 PM
Quote
Tom, look at Tumeni’s diagrams and explanations! He explained it!

Too late.

Quote
For the record no one 'got this to work', it just works

An interesting claim, that no one ever worked on the round earth theory to try and get things to work. Did God tell them about it then?
Oh no, people studied and researched but these researchers and scientists didn't make the world work the way it works. What is an interesting claim is your claim that people made things work the way they do, which seems to assume that it's all essentially made up.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tim Alphabeaver on May 25, 2019, 08:22:06 PM
Did God tell them about it then?
.
People studied how reality worked. Welcome to the scientific method 👏. But we both know you already know this. Why play stupid?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 25, 2019, 08:58:53 PM
Did God tell them about it then?
.
People studied how reality worked. Welcome to the scientific method 👏. But we both know you already know this. Why play stupid?

The scientific method says that an experiment must be made to verify an idea. Observation and interpretation is insufficient. What experiment was performed hundreds of years ago for lunar theory?

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/a/a9/Scientific_Method.jpg)
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tim Alphabeaver on May 25, 2019, 09:33:20 PM
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 25, 2019, 09:50:38 PM
The scientific method says that an experiment must be made to verify an idea. Observation and interpretation is insufficient.

- - - Why? Because you found a colourful graphic that says so, at a basic level?

What experiment was performed hundreds of years ago for lunar theory?

Observation over those hundreds of years. Analysis of results from those observations. The observation was, in and of itself, the experiment.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 25, 2019, 10:51:15 PM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 25, 2019, 11:56:13 PM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.
Tom, you've already been shown a video of a controlled experiment where a model of the earth/moon/sun system was used to create a solar eclipse that reasonably matches real world observations.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 25, 2019, 11:57:26 PM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.
Tom, you've already been shown a video of a controlled experiment where a model of the earth/moon/sun system was used to create a solar eclipse that matches real world observations.

That's not an experiment on the world to determine its true nature. That's called making a model without experimental confirmation to back up your ideas.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 26, 2019, 12:15:22 AM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.
Tom, you've already been shown a video of a controlled experiment where a model of the earth/moon/sun system was used to create a solar eclipse that matches real world observations.

That's not an experiment on the world to determine its true nature. That's called making a model without experimental confirmation to back up your ideas.
Tom, if an experiment using a model matches real world observations, then that is experimental evidence that the model is an accurate representation of reality.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 26, 2019, 12:43:12 AM
Tom, if an experiment using a model matches real world observations, then that is experimental evidence that the model is an accurate representation of reality.

So the model of Astrology is real? It's really the stars causing the trends we see on earth? Interesting.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 26, 2019, 12:47:53 AM
Tom, if an experiment using a model matches real world observations, then that is experimental evidence that the model is an accurate representation of reality.

So the model of Astrology is real? It's really the stars causing the trends we see on earth? Interesting.
Are you saying that astrologers didn't predict eclipses?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Rama Set on May 26, 2019, 12:57:41 AM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.

So the Bishop “Experiment” is also astrology? I see.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 26, 2019, 01:08:09 AM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.

So the Bishop “Experiment” is also astrology? I see.

It matched the FE model. So it must be flat.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Rama Set on May 26, 2019, 01:14:15 AM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.

So the Bishop “Experiment” is also astrology? I see.

It matched the FE model. So it must be flat.

Not an experiment is it?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 26, 2019, 01:37:20 AM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.

So the Bishop “Experiment” is also astrology? I see.

It matched the FE model. So it must be flat.

Not an experiment is it?

Tumeni says that observations are experiments. This experiment proved the earth to be flat.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: markjo on May 26, 2019, 01:52:43 AM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.

So the Bishop “Experiment” is also astrology? I see.

It matched the FE model. So it must be flat.

Not an experiment is it?

Tumeni says that observations are experiments. This experiment proved the earth to be flat.
But you say that observations are not experiments.  Therefore your observation didn't prove anything.

Make up your mind Tom, because you can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 26, 2019, 05:16:03 AM
The ability to get this to work in RET merely  means that astronomers had this conversation hundreds of years ago to get it to work.

You don't think astronomers ever questioned why the eclipse travels in the way that it does and how they can make a model or explain it in a way that makes any sense? Confirmation bias. Little evidence of any matter.

I'd like to point out that Tom just acknowledged that this works just fine in the standard heliocentric model of the globe Earth.

Let's not all get distracted about what is and what is not the scientific method. Let's enjoy this moment where we bask in Tom's admission that thanks to the hard work of scientists hundreds of years ago, the eclipse works perfectly well in RET.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've gotten the impression that Tom is trying to argue that the RET explanation DOESN'T work, and yet he's admitting it DOES work.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: inquisitive on May 26, 2019, 05:24:45 AM
Your theory was not created on the basis of experimentation in an artificial way to determine true causes of phenomena, as demanded by the scientific method? Only observation and interpretation like Astrology? I see.

So the Bishop “Experiment” is also astrology? I see.

It matched the FE model. So it must be flat.

Not an experiment is it?

Tumeni says that observations are experiments. This experiment proved the earth to be flat.
Where is the map for this?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: model 29 on May 26, 2019, 05:48:58 AM
So Tom, do you at least understand why the shadow moves eastward?
Tumeni says that observations are experiments. This experiment proved the earth to be flat.
What experiment?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 26, 2019, 06:17:49 AM
The ability to get this to work in RET merely  means that astronomers had this conversation hundreds of years ago to get it to work.

You don't think astronomers ever questioned why the eclipse travels in the way that it does and how they can make a model or explain it in a way that makes any sense? Confirmation bias. Little evidence of any matter.

I'd like to point out that Tom just acknowledged that this works just fine in the standard heliocentric model of the globe Earth.

Let's not all get distracted about what is and what is not the scientific method. Let's enjoy this moment where we bask in Tom's admission that thanks to the hard work of scientists hundreds of years ago, the eclipse works perfectly well in RET.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've gotten the impression that Tom is trying to argue that the RET explanation DOESN'T work, and yet he's admitting it DOES work.

No correction needed, I'd say you're spot on in your assessment. The conversation was had 100's of years ago on how this works in RET and Tom just acknowledged that the conversations were fruitful. The real issue is how to get this to work on a flat earth. Any takers?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 26, 2019, 08:05:46 AM
Tumeni says that observations are experiments. This experiment proved the earth to be flat.

No, I said the proof came from hundreds, or possibly thousands of observations over many years (where the results were recorded, compared, and the aggregate of them made it into the standard texts).

Proof does not come from your one un-recorded, un-compared, un-repeated experiment
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Auditor on May 26, 2019, 08:24:49 AM
Oh Mother Goose, we've made it to page 12.

Tom, why did you ask if you are not willing to acknowledge a possibility of any feasible answer?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: robinofloxley on May 26, 2019, 11:28:35 AM
Once I'd got my head around how things actually work, it all fell easily into place and seems completely obvious now.

Moon rises first, travels East to West at about 14.5 deg/hour.

Sun afterwards, travels East to West at about 15 deg/hour.

A line connecting the centre of the Sun with the centre of the Moon will point to the West of the observer. This seems undeniable and simple.

Later on the Sun catches up with the Moon, we see our eclipse and the line through the centres will point at the observer (i.e. the line has moved eastwards from it's original position).

Sun overtakes the Moon, line will now point towards the East.

Conclusion, Sun and Moon move East to West, shadow (which must follow the above mentioned line) must move from West to East.

How hard is this to grasp, with or without diagrams?

Losing the will to live here.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 26, 2019, 11:39:26 AM
How hard is this to grasp, with or without diagrams?

There's a thousand and one folk on YouTube who STILL don't grasp it ... 
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: robinofloxley on May 26, 2019, 05:25:42 PM
How hard is this to grasp, with or without diagrams?

There's a thousand and one folk on YouTube who STILL don't grasp it ...

By my calculation then there are exactly one thousand fewer on here that still don't grasp it. Should be grateful for that I suppose.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 26, 2019, 06:17:46 PM
Since we've established that the RET model works, and even Tom now understands it, let's start investigating the proposed FE model.

Draw a diagram. I can see how this might work on a Flat Earth model where both the Sun and Moon are in motion:

(https://i.imgur.com/GTdrB6K.png)

-Both the Moon and the Sun are traveling Westwards. They both set in the West.
-The Sun is traveling faster than the Moon in the sky.
-The shadow is traveling from the West Coast to the East Coast.

From the data we have available, we can start to draw some useful conclusions. I'm still shaky on exactly how the zetetic method works, but I think we can still take the data we've observed and use it to draw some conclusions, can't we? With that in mind, let's consider what information we have, and the implications for this diagram.

First off, we know how fast the shadow moves across the Earth. Based on this diagram, we can see some similar triangles. This should let us determine how high the Sun and Moon are. This isn't enough to tell us exactly how high they are, but we can establish the RATIO based on this. That could be useful.

But wait... aren't the Sun and Moon supposed to be the same size and at roughly the same height? Seems like maybe they aren't afterall. Ok... so the Moon and Sun are at different heights.

What should we do next? I think we should look at where exactly the Sun and Moon were at different times. Where was the Sun directly overhead during this eclipse. Where was the Moon directly overhead at the same time? Can we plot the exact location of the Sun and the Moon during this time period? How well do those correlate with the FE models of how they are supposed to move?

Finally can we combine all this information to triangulate exactly where the Sun and the Moon are at any given time during this eclipse? That seems like a worthwhile effort. We could learn a lot from this.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 26, 2019, 06:30:34 PM
The directions of the bodies and shadow movements look to be in the correct direction to me. Flat Earth model confirmed. --Your logic
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 26, 2019, 07:08:37 PM
The directions of the bodies and shadow movements look to be in the correct direction to me. Flat Earth model confirmed. --Your logic

Not exactly. It's all sussed out in the RET model. However, not so much in the FET model. As ICST has pointed out, in FET, where are the Sun and Moon? At what altitudes? The sun must be higher than the moon. Is it in FET? If so, by how much? Are they the same size? How might that factor into the umbra size?

So until these basic questions can be addressed and more, there is less than zero confirmation of the FET model. --Anyone's logic
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 26, 2019, 07:17:22 PM
The directions of the bodies and shadow movements look to be in the correct direction to me. Flat Earth model confirmed. --Your logic

Not exactly. It's all sussed out in the RET model. However, not so much in the FET model. As ICST has pointed out, in FET, where are the Sun and Moon? At what altitudes? The sun must be higher than the moon. Is it in FET? If so, by how much? Are they the same size? How might that factor into the umbra size?

So until these basic questions can be addressed and more, there is less than zero confirmation of the FET model. --Anyone's logic

We were merely talking about basic directions in this thread. You have not demonstrated any math for anything about RET.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: stack on May 26, 2019, 07:22:31 PM
The directions of the bodies and shadow movements look to be in the correct direction to me. Flat Earth model confirmed. --Your logic

Not exactly. It's all sussed out in the RET model. However, not so much in the FET model. As ICST has pointed out, in FET, where are the Sun and Moon? At what altitudes? The sun must be higher than the moon. Is it in FET? If so, by how much? Are they the same size? How might that factor into the umbra size?

So until these basic questions can be addressed and more, there is less than zero confirmation of the FET model. --Anyone's logic

We were merely talking about basic directions in this thread. You have not demonstrated any math for anything about RET.

Agreed, we're not talking about math per se. But how does the basic direction of the eclipse path as observed work in FET if the sun and moon are at the same altitude?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: ICanScienceThat on May 28, 2019, 02:50:06 PM
Is this conversation over now?

I'm going to try to recap where we ended. Please jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

1) Tom said he didn't understand the RET model of a solar eclipse.
2) After many pages of explanation, Tom said, "The ability to get this to work in RET merely means that astronomers had this conversation hundreds of years ago to get it to work." I take this to mean Tom now acknowledges that the geometry DOES work under RET.
3) It remains somewhat unclear whether Tom agrees that he understands how it works under RET. (Tom, could you clarify that one please?)
4) Tom suggested this works under FET by virtue of a Moon that is much closer to the Earth and a Sun that is farther away.
5) Tom has declined any interest in researching the FET explanation any further.

That about right?
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: Tumeni on May 28, 2019, 03:31:55 PM
You have not demonstrated any math for anything about RET.

You said you had "done the math(s)" on the first page. More precisely, you said you had done it, then quoted from Caltech's math(s).

I and others showed you how that applied to RE eclipse in the following pages.
Title: Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 29, 2019, 04:30:37 PM
The ability to get this to work in RET merely  means that astronomers had this conversation hundreds of years ago to get it to work.

You don't think astronomers ever questioned why the eclipse travels in the way that it does and how they can make a model or explain it in a way that makes any sense?
I don't know what they questioned but the model we have of the solar system has evolved over time based on observations. So you seem to think this is a failing of science but it's actually a strength. Models should always be open to changing or replacing as we learn more and newer models better fit what we observe.

We used to think we lived on a flat earth and that everything goes around us.
That kind of makes sense from a local perspective. The horizon looks flat, it does look like celestial bodies go around us.
The fact we were living on a ball was discovered thousands of years ago though. You know about that.
But we still thought we were the centre of everything. Again, kinda makes sense. The sun rises, goes around the sky and sets.
It was 1534 before Copernicus realised that actually we were just another planet orbiting the sun.
This was such a revolutionary idea that the Inquisition declared it heretical, based on Scripture (1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 104:5, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10).
It was actually illegal to believe in the heliocentric model!
But Copernicus turned out to be right, the motions of the planets just don't work in a geocentric model. Attempts were made to fix the model, so ingrained in people's psyche was it). But, ultimately, the heliocentric model was the only one which properly worked and matched observations.
Even the Pope apologised to Galileo for the church putting him under house arrest for promoting the heliocentric model (the apology came a mere 350 years after Galileo's death. Better late than never I guess!). The Bible is not intended to be a science book. Scripture itself tells us what it's for (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

So now we're left with a pretty simple (in some ways) model:
The earth rotates on its axis and it orbits the sun. And the axis of the earth's rotation is tilted.
The moon, in turn, orbits us. It also rotates but the speed or rotation is tidally locked so we always see the same side of it.
The other planets also orbit the sun in a similar way at different distances and speeds.

This single model explains night and day
It explains the seasons.
It explains the way the length of day changes over the course of a year.
It explains 24 hour sunlight in the summer of each hemisphere at certain latitudes.
It explains our observations of the stars - why they rotate around the poles in the different directions in each hemisphere.
It explains which stars we can and can't see from where and at which time of the year.
It explains our observations of the way planets move in the sky.
It explains the moon's phases.
It explains lunar eclipses.
It explains solar eclipses and, as we've seen, it explains the direction the shadow goes in. It's a bit counter-intuitive and you have to think about it a bit, but it does explain it.

You might not understand why the model explains all these things, but it does. That is the test of a good model. And that's without the fact we've got lots of satellites able to take photos of the globe earth, hundreds of people have been to space including 7 space tourists who had to pay for the privilege and the numerous technologies (GPS, weather satellites, satellite TV etc) which rely on satellites orbiting a globe.

To explain the seasons you have to have the sun moving in different size circles throughout the year, smaller in the northern hemisphere summer, larger in the southern. This either requires the day and night cycle length to change throughout the year (which it doesn't), or the sun to speed up and slow down throughout the year (which it doesn't, we observe a consistent angular speed throughout the year). It also means the sun size stays constant despite the constantly changing distance to it. You have to create another fudge to explain that.
You have no explanation for what would make the sun keep changing orbit in terms of the size of circle it makes or what makes it keep changing speed.

Day length I'm not clear about. It's probably something to do with the above but suffers from the same issues.

24 hour daylight works in the Arctic but not in the Antarctic. In your model the sun cannot orbit an observer in Antarctica as we observe. So you either have to invoke another conspiracy and say that those observations and Antarctica itself as a continent is fake, or you have to have some other bi-polar model of the sun orbiting the Arctic in the northern summer and Antarctica in the southern summer, which completely contradicts the above.

For stars you have to have some celestial gears mechanism or other fudge.

You have a Wiki page about Retrograde movement of planets but there's very little detail and not based on any evidence. You dismiss gravity because it wouldn't work on a FE model but then invoke UA with no evidence for it or explanation as to how it would work. You then claim that there is some celestial gravitation which arbitrarily works on some objects and I think you believe they do pull on us but for some reason the earth doesn't pull back so they don't fall on us.

Moon phases are either because of a self-illuminating moon (although why only parts of the moon would illuminate at different parts of the lunar cycle is unclear, as is why the shadows indicate it is being lit from elsewhere), or it is a similar to the RE explanation but you have to have the moon changing altitude with no explanation as to how and no change in angular size. Confusingly, you seem to think that the moon reflecting light from the sun turns the light cold.

Lunar eclipses are because of a shadow object which we can never see and is translucent - hence the red tint, although there is no real evidence for any of this.

Solar eclipses is something to do with the moon going under the sun but whether the size of the sun and moon in your model and the distances correlate to the size of the shadow we observe is unclear.

The RE model explains all this, your model requires separate explanations for all of them, none of which you have any evidence for and it requires huge global conspiracies to explain the things which just don't work in your model.

You started this thread excitedly thinking you had found a flaw in the RE model. When it was finally explained to you, you're now changing to "Meh, that proves nothing".
Can you really not see how silly this all is?