Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #160 on: May 24, 2019, 09:46:41 AM »
Tom I think it is time to call it quits on this one. We've done 8 pages of explaining it. If you genuinely don't believe it you should see if there were some words that were not understood and look them up in a dictionary and see if that helps.

If you get it now, just say so. It does not dissolve the value of the flat Earth theory, this is just a model of how it could be on the globe. You are welcome to formulate flat Earth version and regard that as truth. It is not a bad thing though to acknowledge that a round Earth theory is possible technically, it just means that it is a workable theory.
It could be round or flat, but round has really been working out so much better for us.

Perhaps it would be better to say the Earth is "pointy".

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #161 on: May 24, 2019, 10:56:37 AM »
HI AATW,

If I am interpreting your diagram correctly, you are showing the view from the perspective of an observer facing south.  The watch the Sun rise, move east to west and then set again.  So your four diagrams collectively represent a timescale of just over half a day?
Yes, that's pretty much it.
The problem Tom is having is the moon is moving and the earth is rotating and it looks like it's the moon whizzing across the sun.
It's actually the sun overtaking the moon and going behind it during an eclipse.
It's a bit counter-intuitive and you do have to think about it a bit. Hopefully my diagrams will help.

Ok, I'm getting it too what Tom doesn't get. If we imagine to watch Earth from the North in Space, and imagine it as an immovable round planet, the Sun would circle around it in 24 hours, but the Moon would be slower, doing it in 24 hours and 50 minutes (they'd be both travelling incredily fast in Space). During an Eclipse, the shadow on Earth would be caused by a faster Sun, making its direction going from East to West. AATW diagrams well show this.

Of course this wouldn't give Lunar phases, so it's quite wrong. Actually I do agree with Auditor here.

However I learned something: Tom, if we know the Sun and Moon diameters are 32 miles, and we know that more or less they're at 1000 miles hovering over FE. And we also know the speed of this Eclipse shadow, going from East to West, cannot we also easily compute in precisely the distance of the Sun relative to the Moon? I mean, it really looks like an easy trigonometric exercise, what do you think?

Edit: thanks spherical
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 11:46:56 PM by Bikini Polaris »
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #162 on: May 24, 2019, 11:01:35 AM »
Ok this is my final post on this topic. Having done some working out using Starry Night software this morning, my conclusion is as follows:

Measuring by azimuth of the horizon circle over a 6 hour period on 3rd June (next new Moon date) the Moon moves through 123 degrees (westward) compared the to the Suns 132 degrees.  So the Moon has moved through a smaller angle than the Sun.

Measured by Right Ascension however, so relative to the stars and over the same 6 hour time period, the Suns RA changes by just 1min of RA. The Moon moves through 11.3 minutes of RA.

So if you are using geographic coordinates (Azimuth) then the Sun moves quicker than the Moon across the sky from E to W but if you are using celestial coordinates (RA) then the Moon is unquestionably moving quicker.

The Moons orbit around the Earth relative to the Earths rotation is causing the Moon to appear to 'drag its heals' across the sky. This effect is lessened for the Sun because of course the Sun is a lot further away and is not in orbit around the Earth so the dragging effect does not apply.

So yes, AATW, when you say

Quote
It's actually the sun overtaking the moon and going behind it during an eclipse.

You are absolutely right.

Even after so many years of sky watching, I hadn't really looked into this sort of thing in any great detail and first impressions tell you that the Moon must be quicker because it is closer.  However I am quite happy to admit when my initial impressions were actually not quite right. It is always good to learn something :-)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 11:10:53 AM by tellytubby »

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #163 on: May 24, 2019, 02:21:24 PM »
Ok, I'm getting it too what Tom doesn't get. If we imagine to watch Earth from the North in Space, and imagine it as an immovable round planet, the Sun would circle around it in 24 hours, but the Moon would be slower, doing it in 23 hours and 10 minutes (they'd be both travelling incredily fast in Space). During an Eclipse, the shadow on Earth would be caused by a faster Sun, making its direction going from East to West.

And of course, this is not what happens (23:10h is faster than 24h, not slower).
Even in FE, the Moon does not make a full turn in 23 hours and 10 minutes, it will be slower (as you said), will take 24 hours and 51 minutes.
But this has nothing to do with the movement of the eclipse shadow time and direction over Earth.

Like I post before, on RE the Earth could be stopped, the eclipse shadow would move eastward at 1002 m/s, moon orbital speed.
Even in FE, the Sun and Moon moves westward (east->west), as the sun moves faster, the moon shadow moves west->east.
It is really difficult to understand why this topic took 8 pages already.

Some people are confusing what they can understand, with simple orbital mechanical optical facts.

I use to say to my students, by simple proven fact water is a liquid, you can lucubrate, discuss, theorize, make papers, try to disprove, water calmly will continue to be a liquid.

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #164 on: May 24, 2019, 02:42:22 PM »
You guys can never agree with each other. One guy says the sun is traveling faster, another says it's the scale causing it, another says it's the rotation. Contradicting explanations and diagrams, etc.

Same thing every thread. Throw out enough onto the wall and hope something sticks.

Perhaps you could address what there is, rather than glossing over multiple posts? 

I've drawn you multiple diagrams, which you seem to ignore, and then when I post something else in words, you say "Draw a diagram". I've done that. More than once. They're in the thread, and you seem to ignore them. 

I've asked you twice - which way do you actually WANT it diagrammed that would help you understand it? You haven't answered. Top down? Side view? 

Do you actually WANT to understand it?

You started off by saying you don't understand it.

If you genuinely do want to understand, tell me how I/we can best explain it to you such that you will understand.

If you don't actually want to understand, why are you asking in the first place?


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #165 on: May 24, 2019, 02:48:20 PM »
Why should I believe you when I can believe markjo that the moon is traveling at 15.5 degrees per hour? You all seem to believe something different.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 02:58:00 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #166 on: May 24, 2019, 02:51:47 PM »
Why should I believe you when I can believe markjo that the sun is traveling at 15.5 degrees per hour? You all seem to believe something different.

And again, you strike off at a tangent.

Do. you. genuinely. not. understand?   Y/N
Do. you. want. to. understand?    Y/N

Direct answers to the above, please.

If I directly address what you post, as I have done numerous times above, could you respond in kind and directly address my posts, not distract by referencing those of others?

If you don't understand, what method of illustration would you prefer to help you understand?

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #167 on: May 24, 2019, 03:07:08 PM »
Markjo doesn't sound on board with all of the ideas here. He says that the Moon moves from East to West at a rate of 15.5 degrees per hour, which is faster than the Sun, and that you are wrong in interpretation.

Quote from: markjo
the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 03:24:06 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #168 on: May 24, 2019, 03:23:29 PM »
Yet, this is contrary to observation. The Moon travels slower than the Sun in the sky and cannot race past it.
Right. I think I've understood your confusion and I'll admit it's a bit counter-intuitive.
The moon does indeed move slower in the sky than the sun for the reason shown in my diagram. The moon is orbiting the earth in the same direction that the earth rotates so that motion reduces the net angular speed we observe of the moon.
Maybe these diagrams will help. The semi-circle represents the sun and moon's path across the sky. The key thing to understand is that the moon starts to the right or the west of the sun. During an eclipse the sun catches up with the moon and over-takes it.
Edit: I just realised I pasted the "sun" over the moon so when they overlap the sun is in front, in real life it's actually behind of course! Lazy of me. But it demonstrates the principle so I can't be bothered changing it now!



So it's actually the sun which races past behind the moon BUT if you are fixed on the sun then it looks like it's the moon which is going across the sun's path.
It's a bit complicated because we're talking about relative motion but if you think about it you should understand what's going on.

This depiction seems to work if we use a slow moving Moon and the first person perspective of the observer. Thanks AATW for clarifying.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #169 on: May 24, 2019, 03:27:11 PM »
Posted this already, but here's the top-down depiction of the Earth/Moon system, showing the Moon going around the Earth, and the shadow cast straight out, in a manner that DOES NOT ROTATE around the Earth.



Even if the Earth wasn't there, and the Moon was rotating around a point in space, the same would still apply




Look at this side-on, from the perspective of an observer between Earth and Sun, along the line of sunlight, and it would look like this;



Note that the overall movement of the Earth and Moon around the Sun is ignored, it is assumed the observer keeps Earth in the centre of his/her field of vision;
The Moon starts out at New Moon, the time of the eclipse, in front of the Earth. This is zero degrees (or 360).

It moves out to first quarter, which, if viewed from the Sun, would be to the right of the Earth. The line between Earth and Moon would be perpendicular (at 90 degrees) to the line between Earth and Sun

It then moves behind the Earth, to full moon at 180 degrees, and out to third quarter, which from the viewpoint from the Sun would be to the left of the Earth at 270 degrees. It then moves back to New Moon, zero or 360 degrees

The apparent motion of the Moon from this perspective would be side-to-side. It would cover each arc of, say 10 degrees, in the same time as any other arc of 10 degrees, it has broadly linear speed in its orbit. However, from the viewpoint of the Sun, simple geometry tells us that it would appear to slow to zero at each quarter, before changing direction side-to-side.



There is no orbital or rotational aspect around the Earth for the shadow. The shadow of the Moon will be invisible from the Sun, as it is cast AWAY from the Sun, and will be behind the Moon. The speed of the shadow, across an imaginary line connecting first and third quarters through the Earth would be zero at first quarter, at its highest at full moon, zero at third quarter, and at its highest again at new moon. The portion of the Moon's orbit where the shadow will cross the Earth is a small portion of the central area around zero or 360 degrees.

Do you understand this so far, Tom? We're ONLY looking at it from two points of view - above the Earth/Moon system, and from the viewpoint of the Sun. This is NOT considering the viewpoint of an observer on Earth.

 

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #170 on: May 24, 2019, 03:28:43 PM »
Markjo doesn't sound on board with all of the ideas here. He says that the Moon moves from East to West at a rate of 15.5 degrees per hour, which is faster than the Sun, and that you are wrong in interpretation.

Quote from: markjo
the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.

And again, you strike off at a tangent.

If I directly address what you post, as I have done numerous times above, could you respond in kind and directly address my posts, not distract by referencing those of others?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #171 on: May 24, 2019, 03:32:53 PM »
I don't think anyone was arguing that shadows would rotate.

I'm on board with AATW's explanation. It seems that you need to talk to Markjo about your disagreements with him.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 03:53:41 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #172 on: May 24, 2019, 03:33:44 PM »
This depiction seems to work if we use a slow moving Moon and the first person perspective of the observer. Thanks AATW for clarifying.


So you agree that both Sun and Moon are moving Westward, and that the Moon's motion across the face of the Sun, since it is crossing your sky slower than the Sun, is Eastward?

If the Moon crossed the Sun Westward, it would be moving across your sky faster than the Sun, wouldn't it?
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #173 on: May 24, 2019, 03:35:31 PM »
I'm on board with AATW's explanation. It seems that you need to talk to Markjo about your disagreements with him.

I don't see any contradiction between what I say and what he said. He's talking about the angular rate of the Moon, I'm pointing out that the Moon's shadow has no angular rate.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #174 on: May 24, 2019, 04:34:50 PM »
Quote
I don't see any contradiction between what I say and what he said.

The Moon doesn't move faster than the Sun in the sky. If that is what you believe then you agree with markjo and disagree with ICST who says that the Moon moves at 14.5 degrees per hour. In which case you should talk to him.

Read AATW's explanation. He has a slow moving Moon, since the Moon travels in the direction of the Earth's rotation in RET, and a static Sun. From the POV of the observer the Sun overtakes the Moon. The motions are counter-intuitive, but explainable in RET.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #175 on: May 24, 2019, 05:00:28 PM »
Quote
I don't see any contradiction between what I say and what he said.

The Moon doesn't move faster than the Sun in the sky.

- - - - I never said that it did, from an observer's perspective. It crosses the sky slower than the Sun. In terms of linear velocity, it moves faster than any point on Earth's surface, but that's a different perspective.

If that is what you believe then you agree with markjo and disagree with ICST who says that the Moon moves at 14.5 degrees per hour. In which case you should talk to him.

- - - Please address directly what I say, not what others say. The Moon may well move at the angular rates you describe, but we're eventually going to talk about the Moon's shadow, IF you actually engage with me, and the shadow has no rotational or angular motion around the Earth.

Read AATW's explanation. He has a slow moving Moon, since the Moon travels in the direction of the Earth's rotation in RET, and a static Sun. From the POV of the observer the Sun overtakes the Moon. The motions are counter-intuitive, but explainable in RET.

Again, please address what I write, starting over with #169.

You're the one who said at the beginning of this thread that you did. not. understand.  A few posts later you admitted "I must be doing something wrong".

I'm happy to help you understand, I'm happy to tell you where you went wrong. What would help you? Sowing discord amongst I and others will not help you understand.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 05:06:41 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #176 on: May 24, 2019, 05:09:32 PM »
No one has stated that the shadow rotates to point at the earth in RET. You appear to be arguing with yourself.
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #177 on: May 24, 2019, 05:10:45 PM »
No one has stated that the shadow rotates to point at the earth. You appear to be arguing with yourself.

If that's the case, then there's no value in quoting angular rates of progress of the Moon (as you just did in your last post, barely a few minutes ago, and on page 1) to analyse the progress of the shadow.

I told you then, this was where you were going wrong, and here we are, 9 pages later...

Could you address what I asked in #169, or any of the direct questions I put to you earlier which went unanswered?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #178 on: May 24, 2019, 05:19:13 PM »
No one has stated that the shadow rotates to point at the earth. You appear to be arguing with yourself.

If that's the case, then there's no value in quoting angular rates of progress of the Moon (as you just did in your last post, barely a few minutes ago, and on page 1) to analyse the progress of the shadow.

No one is talking about the possibility of the shadow rotating in RET except you.

Quote
I told you then, this was where you were going wrong, and here we are, 9 pages later...

Many pages later and you are still talking to yourself about rotating shadows, when no one else is talking about that.

Quote
Could you address what I asked in #169, or any of the direct questions I put to you earlier which went unanswered?

I saw you talking about rotating shadows in RET and skimmed past it. No one has made that argument.
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #179 on: May 24, 2019, 05:23:22 PM »
No one is talking about the possibility of the shadow rotating in RET except you.

- - - I'm saying explicitly that the Moon's shadow cannot rotate around the Earth. How does this equate to me discussing it as a "possibility"?     I've insisted from page 1 that it does. not. do. this.

You're the one who started talking about angular and rotational rates on page 1, and that's where I started to correct you.


I saw you talking about rotating shadows and skimmed past it. No one has made that argument.

- - I've been posting pertinent questions to you since page 1 or 2, and you have, by your own admission here, skimmed (some of) them.

First you ask folks to help you understand (page 1), then you ask "Where am I going wrong?" (also page 1), and now you admit you've been ignoring responses to what you asked.

Are you confused about what you want? What DO you want?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 05:25:56 PM by Tumeni »
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