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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #180 on: May 24, 2019, 05:27:41 PM »
- - - I'm saying explicitly that the Moon's shadow cannot rotate around the Earth.

No one said that it did or could in RET. You are having a conversation with yourself.

Discussing the angular rotation of the earth's rotation or the angular rotation rate of the moon or the sun in the sky is not arguing that the shadow can rotate in dimension to always point at the earth. You have concocted your own argument of which no one is discussing.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #181 on: May 24, 2019, 05:30:14 PM »
- - - I'm saying explicitly that the Moon's shadow cannot rotate around the Earth.

No one said that it did or could in RET.

Discussing the angular rotation of the earth's rotation or the angular rotation rate of the moon or the sun in the sky is not arguing that the shadow can rotate in dimension to always point at the earth. You have concocted your own argument of which no one is discussing.

You suggested it in reply #12, and then wondered where you were going wrong.

No?

If you skimmed my reply #15, please revisit that.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 05:31:46 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #182 on: May 24, 2019, 05:53:30 PM »
- - - I'm saying explicitly that the Moon's shadow cannot rotate around the Earth.

No one said that it did or could in RET.

Discussing the angular rotation of the earth's rotation or the angular rotation rate of the moon or the sun in the sky is not arguing that the shadow can rotate in dimension to always point at the earth. You have concocted your own argument of which no one is discussing.

You suggested it in reply #12, and then wondered where you were going wrong.

No?

If you skimmed my reply #15, please revisit that.

Post #12 is discussing whether the moon outruns the surface of the earth and what it sees from its vantage point, and gives an example of a static moon. It says nothing about whether the shadow will always point at the earth in all situations. You have made up your own arguments. We are on post 182 now, and has been zero ongoing discussion of the shadow always pointing at the earth. We have been talking explicitly about the diagrams of the shadow moving past the earth.

You are arguing with yourself and drawing up diagrams which have nothing to do with the discussion in the thread.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #183 on: May 24, 2019, 06:04:41 PM »
You are arguing with yourself and drawing up diagrams which have nothing to do with the discussion in the thread.

... and you appear to be doing your best to derail the thread by not actually engaging with the questions I put to you.

You started out with "I don't understand why"

Are you saying you do now understand why?

Shortly after that, you wondered where you were going wrong

Are you saying that you now understand where you went wrong?

Or do you just want to quibble over and over how, when you quote an angular rate of the Moon, and wonder how that applies to the shadow, it's appropriate or not to point out where. you. are. going. wrong.  ???
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 06:06:26 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #184 on: May 24, 2019, 06:24:31 PM »
You are arguing with yourself and drawing up diagrams which have nothing to do with the discussion in the thread.

... and you appear to be doing your best to derail the thread by not actually engaging with the questions I put to you.

You started out with "I don't understand why"

Are you saying you do now understand why?

Shortly after that, you wondered where you were going wrong

Are you saying that you now understand where you went wrong?

Or do you just want to quibble over and over how, when you quote an angular rate of the Moon, and wonder how that applies to the shadow, it's appropriate or not to point out where. you. are. going. wrong.  ???

Again, we have been explicitly discussing the diagrams of the shadow moving past the earth, without disagreement on that premise. What you thought or interpreted has not been discussed. There has been little discussion of rotating shadows in RET, except by you. At this point you mainly appear to be spamming the forum.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #185 on: May 24, 2019, 06:45:17 PM »
Markjo doesn't sound on board with all of the ideas here. He says that the Moon moves from East to West at a rate of 15.5 degrees per hour, which is faster than the Sun, and that you are wrong in interpretation.

Quote from: markjo
the moon should appear to cross the sky from east to west at a rate of about 15.5 degrees per hour.

Cherry picking as usual and ignoring a crucial bit:
Someone please check my math...

Someone did check my math and showed me that I was close but had it backwards.  Even so, that's still more than you've tried to explain from an FE perspective.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #186 on: May 24, 2019, 08:11:29 PM »
Again, we have been explicitly discussing the diagrams of the shadow moving past the earth, without disagreement on that premise.

- - - That's what I've been discussing too, but, as you admitted earlier, you "skimmed" my earlier posts. Read them again, in full, and you might see that.

You cannot discuss the movement of the shadow in angular terms, which is what you did on page 1.


There has been little discussion of rotating shadows in RET, except by you. At this point you mainly appear to be spamming the forum.

I disagree with you. I'm responding to what you say. You say "Tumeni did this, Tumeni did that". I disagree with you, and respond in terms of "I did not do that".

How can this be termed "spam"?
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #187 on: May 24, 2019, 08:27:32 PM »
You started out with "I don't understand why"

Do you "understand why" now?  Y/N
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #188 on: May 24, 2019, 09:55:19 PM »
AATW explained how it can work, keeping the moon slower than the sun and the bodies moving in the correct directions. You seem to go back and fourth on whether you agree with markjo's fast Moon or not, and have difficulty following what the discussion is about.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 10:30:46 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

tellytubby

Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #189 on: May 24, 2019, 10:14:40 PM »
My own investigation has shown me how and why the Sun moves that little bit faster across the sky. I simulated the motion of both for the 3rd June which is the next new Moon date and I took positional data for both the Sun and the Moon for a few hours either side of the actual new Moon time.   That was relevant because at the 11.02UT the Moon will be directly below the Sun in the sky and hence they will share the same azimuth.

As this discussion has progressed the general acceptance has been about the Moon orbiting the Earth and the Earth orbiting the Sun.  Does that then mean there is also a general acceptance then that the heliocentic model is correct?  Most flat Earthers seem to believe in geocentricism.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #190 on: May 24, 2019, 10:22:03 PM »
It just means that this wouldn't be geometrical problem for RET.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #191 on: May 24, 2019, 11:17:13 PM »
AATW explained how it can work, keeping the moon slower than the sun and the bodies moving in the correct directions. You seem to go back and fourth on whether you agree with markjo's fast Moon or not, and have difficulty following what the discussion is about.

Are you saying you now understand why the Moon's shadow went from West to East? How it does work, not how it "can"

How can you tell whether I follow it or not, when you admit you "skimmed" through my posts? 
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Offline markjo

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #192 on: May 24, 2019, 11:20:11 PM »
AATW explained how it can work, keeping the moon slower than the sun and the bodies moving in the correct directions. You seem to go back and fourth on whether you agree with markjo's fast Moon or not, and have difficulty following what the discussion is about.
It's already been shown that I was mistaken about the moon moving faster than the sun.  Time to move on, Tom.
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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #193 on: May 24, 2019, 11:24:20 PM »
Post #12 is discussing whether the moon outruns the surface of the earth and what it sees from its vantage point, and gives an example of a static moon.

This is post #12

Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph
Circumference of Moon's orbit: 1,423,000 miles
Circumference of Moon's orbit / 360 degrees = 3952.77 miles per degree
2,288 (Speed of Moon in mph) * 12 = 47433.24 miles around the earth over 12 hours
47433.24 miles / 3952.77 miles per degree = 12 degrees around the earth in 12 hours

So the Moon is slower than the Earth's rotation. After 12 hours the moon would make an arc 12 degrees around the Earth, while after 12 hours a point on the Earth would turn 180 degrees.

Surely, I must be doing something wrong?


In which case, if the Moon is slower than a point on the Earth's surface, then the path of the eclipse should travel from East to West, as if the Moon were static over the earth while the earth turned beneath it.

You are/were conflating what the Moon does with what the eclipse shadow does.

Post #12 ... says nothing about whether the shadow will always point at the earth in all situations.

Did anyone say that it did? I didn't.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #194 on: May 24, 2019, 11:28:17 PM »
Post #12 is discussing whether the moon outruns the surface of the earth and what it sees from its vantage point, and gives an example of a static moon.

This is post #12

Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph
Circumference of Moon's orbit: 1,423,000 miles
Circumference of Moon's orbit / 360 degrees = 3952.77 miles per degree
2,288 (Speed of Moon in mph) * 12 = 47433.24 miles around the earth over 12 hours
47433.24 miles / 3952.77 miles per degree = 12 degrees around the earth in 12 hours

So the Moon is slower than the Earth's rotation. After 12 hours the moon would make an arc 12 degrees around the Earth, while after 12 hours a point on the Earth would turn 180 degrees.

Surely, I must be doing something wrong?


In which case, if the Moon is slower than a point on the Earth's surface, then the path of the eclipse should travel from East to West, as if the Moon were static over the earth while the earth turned beneath it.

You are/were conflating what the Moon does with what the eclipse shadow does.

It says nothing about the eclipse shadow.

We have not been talking about the shadow of the eclipse always turning to face the earth. You have made that argument up in your head. The next posts explicitly talk about the moon's shadow traveling over the earth, and there is no argument that the eclipse shadow needs to be rotating. You seem to be spamming with irrelevancies.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 11:38:49 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #195 on: May 24, 2019, 11:33:05 PM »
Post #12 is discussing whether the moon outruns the surface of the earth and what it sees from its vantage point, and gives an example of a static moon.

This is post #12

Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph
Circumference of Moon's orbit: 1,423,000 miles
Circumference of Moon's orbit / 360 degrees = 3952.77 miles per degree
2,288 (Speed of Moon in mph) * 12 = 47433.24 miles around the earth over 12 hours
47433.24 miles / 3952.77 miles per degree = 12 degrees around the earth in 12 hours

So the Moon is slower than the Earth's rotation. After 12 hours the moon would make an arc 12 degrees around the Earth, while after 12 hours a point on the Earth would turn 180 degrees.

Surely, I must be doing something wrong?


In which case, if the Moon is slower than a point on the Earth's surface, then the path of the eclipse should travel from East to West, as if the Moon were static over the earth while the earth turned beneath it.

You are/were conflating what the Moon does with what the eclipse shadow does.

It says nothing about the eclipse shadow.

- - But it should. That's the whole point, you're looking at what the Moon does, when you should be looking at what the shadow does

We have not been talking about the shadow of the eclipse always turning to face the earth. You have made that argument up in your head.

Neither have I. Whenever anyone has cited an angular movement of the Moon in relation to the Earth, I've been at pains to point out that they're considering what the Moon does, and that the shadow DOES NOT DO THIS. 

The next posts explicitly talk about the moon's shadow traveling over the earth, and there is no argument that the eclipse shadow needs to be rotating. Stop spamming with irrelevancies.

Answer the questions, then, if you want to bring the discussion to a close. You seem to be trying to do everything but this.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 11:34:59 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #196 on: May 25, 2019, 12:01:36 AM »
Quote
It says nothing about the eclipse shadow.

- - But it should. That's the whole point, you're looking at what the Moon does, when you should be looking at what the shadow does

But it doesn't. We were talking about whether the Moon outruns the surface of the Earth or not. The Moon needs to see the Earth move in the right direction and the moon needs set in the right direction, seeing the West Coast last. We begun with an assessment of whether the Moon is setting in the right direction with the explanations given. Remember? We aren't even yet talking about the possible shadow dynamics there. An argument was not made that the shadow needs to rotate to face the earth at all times. You are reading what you wish and are making faulty assumptions and arguments. Clearly, if it was thought that the shadow needed to rotate to face the earth at all times and situations that argument would have been made when discussing the shadow moving across the earth. It was not.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #197 on: May 25, 2019, 08:32:49 AM »
We aren't even yet talking about the possible shadow dynamics there.

- - You were talking about the shadow in your first post, and referring to the eclipse path in page 1. What is the eclipse path, if not the shadow of the Moon?


An argument was not made that the shadow needs to rotate to face the earth at all times. You are reading what you wish and are making faulty assumptions and arguments.

- - I disagree.


Clearly, if it was thought that the shadow needed to rotate to face the earth at all times and situations that argument would have been made when discussing the shadow moving across the earth. It was not.

... and it took you 10 pages to realise. Perhaps you shouldn't have "skimmed" my posts after all...

Nobody else seems to think I was off-topic. If I was way off, dontcha think others would have said so too? 

For 8 or 9 pages, I've been actively been trying to help you, since you expressed a lack of understanding from page 1 onwards. When you asked "Where am I going wrong", I provided 3 or 4 posts with explanation. When you didn't like my explanation in words, and demanded "Draw a diagram", I explicitly asked you "What kind of diagram would help you most", and even provided some more, when this question went unanswered. But for the last two pages or so you've been picking at the minutiae of what was said to insist that what I responded to from the outset was not what you really meant. Why are you doing this? 


Do you now understand why the solar eclipse path went from West to East?


We can close the thread now if we can establish whether or not the contributions from myself and others have answered your original questions. Have they?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 03:15:59 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #198 on: May 25, 2019, 03:57:29 PM »
Quote
For 8 or 9 pages, I've been actively been trying to help you, since you expressed a lack of understanding from page 1 onwards.

We can close the thread now if we can establish whether or not the contributions from myself and others have answered your original questions. Have they?

You seem to have difficulty understanding the thread, the discussion, and the subject-matter. I don't see anyone saying "look at Tunemi's drawings/explanations, he explained it!". You have had zero support. No one seems to care about your drawings or explanations. You continuously make "explanations" for subjects which are not argued or discussed, here and elsewhere.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 04:48:53 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction
« Reply #199 on: May 25, 2019, 05:11:58 PM »
You seem to have difficulty understanding the thread, the discussion, and the subject-matter.

- - - Yet you are the one who started it off with "Please help my understand" and "Where am I going wrong", and I'm the one who responded with offer of help, such that you might understand it. Now you insist the situation is reversed. Why are you doing this?


I don't see anyone saying "look at Tunemi's drawings/explanations, he explained it!". You have had zero support. No one seems to care about your drawings or explanations, unfortunately. You continuously make "explanations" for subjects which are not argued or discussed, here and elsewhere.

You admitted you basically didn't see my posts, as you had 'skimmed' them, so does it make any difference whether or not you see people supporting me or not? How do we know you didn't 'skim' the thread when you looked for them, too?

However, it seems you no longer want to talk about the topic at hand. You just want to take issue, 10 pages in, with what I've been saying since page 1, even though you didn't protest about it then..... 

I ask you if you now understand, you try to claim the last word with multiple critiques of how you think I've contributed to the thread, without answering the question. Why are you doing this?
« Last Edit: May 25, 2019, 05:16:41 PM by Tumeni »
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