Solar Eclipse Path Moving in Wrong Direction

Tom Bishop · « **on:** May 17, 2019, 07:23:38 PM »

Help me understand the direction of the Solar Eclipse.

According to what we observe:

- The Sun sets in the West.
- The Moon sets in the West.

Ask an Astronomer: "The Earth rotates counter-clockwise on its axis (picture a spinning top). Because of this motion, celestial bodies such as the Sun, Moon and stars appear to rise in the eastern sky and set in the western sky."

The Aug 2017 Path of Totality for the solar eclipse Started on the West Coast of the United States and ended on the East Coast.

If we observe the earth from the perspective of the sun, from a static point over the earth, the shadow of the moon would appear on the East Coast first and end on the West Coast.

When pressed for an answer, some have that it started in the West because the Moon is traveling around the Earth from West to East. However, if we have the Moon rotating around the Earth faster than Earth's rotation, then we should see the Moon set in the East every day.

How does this work?

ICanScienceThat · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2019, 07:46:17 PM »

You ask this as if you wanted an answer, but it's quite clear that you do not want an answer. If you wanted it, the answer is readily available. It took me less than 5 minutes to google this. I found you this video:

You aren't really asking a genuine question here are you? Would it be more accurate to say that you're actually trying to suggest that no answer to this question exists? I mean, if you REALLY wanted the answer, you'd have googled it and found the same thing I did. Yet that's not how this went down. Why is that?

The best explanation I can come up with is that you know the answer, but you are acting as if you do not. Is that what's really going on?

Tom Bishop · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2019, 07:49:46 PM »

That video gives an explanation that the Moon is rotating around the Earth faster than it is rotating. So why doesn't the Moon set in the East?

stack · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2019, 07:52:15 PM »

Here's another animation I found useful:

Curious Squirrel · « **Reply #4 on:** May 17, 2019, 07:58:32 PM »

I'm not interested in taking the time to find the exact pages at this time being on mobile, but the answer to your question was answered as nauseum in a thread about two years ago on the other site. https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71435.0 There were no less than three different attempts at explaining this phenomenon, including a way to replicate it in your own backyard as I recall.

Tom Bishop · « **Reply #5 on:** May 17, 2019, 08:08:42 PM »

Neither of those sources address how the moon can travel faster than the Earth's rotation and also set in the West.

Please point out the explanation.

markjo · « **Reply #6 on:** May 17, 2019, 08:19:36 PM »

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 08:08:42 PM

Neither of those sources address how the moon can travel faster than the Earth's rotation and also set in the West.

Please point out the explanation.

Simply put: both the sun and moon cross the sky from east to west, but the sun is moving faster than the moon. If you want, you can do the math yourself to compare the speed of the earth's rotation to the speed of the moon as it orbits the earth.

Curious Squirrel · « **Reply #7 on:** May 17, 2019, 08:20:38 PM »

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 08:08:42 PM

Neither of those sources address how the moon can travel faster than the Earth's rotation and also set in the West.

Please point out the explanation.

Bullshit you read through that thread in ten minutes. The answer is in there, and normally I'd be happy to suss out where, but do your own work this time Tom. Or wait for someone who's got the time and interest to do it for you to come along, the threads a rather interesting read overall imo.

Tom Bishop · « **Reply #8 on:** May 17, 2019, 08:24:26 PM »

I've already seen that thread. You don't think that I visit that forum? I went there and here is Markjo's explanation:

Quote

As FE'ers like to constantly remind us, the earth is rotating at 1100 mph at the equator.

Well, the moon is orbiting the earth at just under 2300 mph.

Which do you suppose is faster?

The answers do not address why the moon doesn't set in the East if it is rotating over the Earth's surface faster than the Earth's rotation. You linked me to 50 pages of trolling.

If you have an answer then I would suggest that you give it directly rather than random links with the explanation that "the answer is in there somewhere." That is a sign that you do not know the answer and cannot explain it.

Quote from: markjo on May 17, 2019, 08:19:36 PM

Simply put: both the sun and moon cross the sky from east to west, but the sun is moving faster than the moon. If you want, you can do the math yourself to compare the speed of the earth's rotation to the speed of the moon as it orbits the earth.

Here you are stating what we see, not showing how it works geometrically in the Round Earth model to answer the East/West shadow path and setting direction question.

Curious Squirrel · « **Reply #9 on:** May 17, 2019, 08:36:11 PM »

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 08:24:26 PM

I've already seen that thread. You don't think that I visit that forum? I went there and here is Markjo's explanation:

Quote
As FE'ers like to constantly remind us, the earth is rotating at 1100 mph at the equator.

Well, the moon is orbiting the earth at just under 2300 mph.

Which do you suppose is faster?

The answers do not address why the moon doesn't set in the East if it is rotating around the Earth faster than the Earth's rotation. You linked me to 50 pages of trolling.

If you have an answer then I would suggest that you give it directly rather than random links with the explanation that "the answer is in there somewhere." That is a sign that you do not know the answer and cannot explain it.

If you still genuinely don't know the answer to your question after having watched that thread, then you're hopeless and you should stop pretending you understand a damn thing about how the standard model works. Go take some classes. Learn something. Reevaluate what you know vs think you know. Then try this whole FE thing again.

For the rest of you, check out that thread. See if you can find the explanations I'm talking about. This is just the final nail that Tom is here just to troll. He's not interested in learning.

Uetzicle · « **Reply #10 on:** May 17, 2019, 08:37:13 PM »

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 08:08:42 PM

Neither of those sources address how the moon can travel faster than the Earth's rotation and also set in the West.

Please point out the explanation.

Really?

I think you need to watch the first video again. And then again. It explains it very clearly.

Yes, the moon travels in its orbit around the earth faster than the earth rotates on its axis. But the moon has a LOT further to travel. The side of the earth you are on turns away from the moon almost 28 times before the moon completes a revolution around the earth. And as the earth turns, the moon appears to rise in the east and set in the west. The moon would need to travel 28 times faster for it to appear to set in the east.

You're just trolling, right? Like previous posters said, there are many, many resources online, in books, etc. that illustrate this. It's also a fairly easy experiment to set up at home. This has to be a troll.

Tom Bishop · « **Reply #11 on:** May 17, 2019, 08:42:12 PM »

Quote from: Curious Squirrel on May 17, 2019, 08:36:11 PM

If you still genuinely don't know the answer to your question after having watched that thread, then you're hopeless and you should stop pretending you understand a damn thing about how the standard model works. Go take some classes. Learn something. Reevaluate what you know vs think you know. Then try this whole FE thing again.

For the rest of you, check out that thread. See if you can find the explanations I'm talking about. This is just the final nail that Tom is here just to troll. He's not interested in learning.

The fact that you posted a link to a long thread rather than giving the answer or quoting it shows that YOU don't know the answer.

That's not how debate works. If you can't give an answer then it means that you don't know it. Telling someone to read a book for their answer is not answering the question.

As I've said, I went there and it's markjo and others saying that the moon is faster than the earth. This does not address my question. If the answer is in there somewhere, or somewhere else, then please explain or quote it for us.

Quote

Really?

I think you need to watch the first video again. And then again. It explains it very clearly.

No it doesn't. The video author just says that the moon is faster than the earth's rotation. It does not answer my question.

The direction of the moon's setting is not discussed at all.

Quote from: Uetzicle

Yes, the moon travels in its orbit around the earth faster than the earth rotates on its axis. But the moon has a LOT further to travel. The side of the earth you are on turns away from the moon almost 28 times before the moon completes a revolution around the earth. And as the earth turns, the moon appears to rise in the east and set in the west. The moon would need to travel 28 times faster for it to appear to set in the east.

Is the Moon traveling faster than the surface of the Earth, or slower than it?

The Moon would need to be traveling faster than the Earth's surface for its shadow to start in the West and end in the East. In which case, if the Moon it traveling faster than the Earth's surface then it should set in the East.

Tom Bishop · « **Reply #12 on:** May 17, 2019, 09:31:55 PM »

I took markjo's advice and did the math.

According to caltech:

Quote

How fast does the Moon travel around Earth?

The Moon orbits Earth at a speed of 2,288 miles per hour (3,683 kilometers per hour). During this time it travels a distance of 1,423,000 miles (2,290,000 kilometers).

Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph

Circumference of Moon's orbit: 1,423,000 miles

Circumference of Moon's orbit / 360 degrees = 3952.77 miles per degree

2,288 (Speed of Moon in mph) * 12 = 47433.24 miles around the earth over 12 hours

47433.24 miles / 3952.77 miles per degree = 12 degrees around the earth in 12 hours

So the Moon is slower than the Earth's rotation. After 12 hours the moon would make an arc 12 degrees around the Earth, while after 12 hours a point on the Earth would turn 180 degrees.

Surely, I must be doing something wrong?

In which case, if the Moon is slower than a point on the Earth's surface, then the path of the eclipse should travel from East to West, as if the Moon were static over the earth while the earth turned beneath it.

ICanScienceThat · « **Reply #13 on:** May 17, 2019, 09:37:34 PM »

Tom, it's VERY hard to believe that you're being genuine.

The Moon's "speed" can have 2 very distinct meanings, and you typed it right in your own post.

"Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph"

Is that faster or slower than the surface of the Earth moves?

Radial speed and linear speed are different things, and they have different effects.

Tom Bishop · « **Reply #14 on:** May 17, 2019, 09:40:51 PM »

Quote from: ICanScienceThat on May 17, 2019, 09:37:34 PM

Tom, it's VERY hard to believe that you're being genuine.

The Moon's "speed" can have 2 very distinct meanings, and you typed it right in your own post.

"Moon orbits earth at speed of 2,288 mph"

Is that faster or slower than the surface of the Earth moves?

Radial speed and linear speed are different things, and they have different effects.

It doesn't say. I would say that it doesn't really matter either way.

If the Moon is travelling with the surface of the Earth + the Moon's speed, then the Moon would see an Earth turning backwards to the animation posted above, because the Moon is outrunning it as the Moon travels Eastwards in relation to the Earth's surface. In which case an observer on the Earth's surface would see it set in the East.

The paradox I described earlier occurs. We can only have a correct direction of the eclipse across the face of the Earth or a correct direction of the Moon's setting, not both.

Tumeni · « **Reply #15 on:** May 17, 2019, 10:31:47 PM »

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 09:31:55 PM

Surely, I must be doing something wrong?

Yes, you're taking the angular component of the Moon's orbit and applying this to the Moon's shadow.

The Moon moves by degrees around the Earth, its orbit centred on (roughly) the centre of the Earth.

The Moon's shadow has no angular component AROUND the Earth. It moves back and forth across the Earth/Moon system like a pencil being rolled back and forth across a CD or other disc.

Moon speed at time its shadow crosses the area of space occupied by Earth = 2200 mph or so
Speed of Moon's shadow at this point = same
Speed of equivalent point on Earth surface = 1000 mph or less

Both in an Easterly direction.

Net result = 2200 minus 1000 = 1200 mph or so, in an Easterly direction

No?

The grey lines are the Moon's shadow, always cast out in a straight line, continuation of the imaginary line connecting Moon with Sun

Tom Bishop · « **Reply #16 on:** May 17, 2019, 10:51:11 PM »

If the Earth is static in your image from the North Pole and the Moon is moving Eastwards in relation to the earth's surface then you have the moon setting in the East. An observer in California sees the moon setting over the East Coast.

You have the shadow direction correct, moving from West to East, but you have the direction of setting incorrect.

The Moon sets in the West.

You need to come up with a way to get the Moon to set in the West and for the shadow to travel from West to East.

markjo · « **Reply #17 on:** May 17, 2019, 10:54:29 PM »

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 10:51:11 PM

If the Earth is static in your image...

The earth isn't static. It's rotating at a linear speed of 1000 mph at the equator.

Tom Bishop · « **Reply #18 on:** May 17, 2019, 10:55:36 PM »

Quote from: markjo on May 17, 2019, 10:54:29 PM

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 10:51:11 PM
If the Earth is static in your image...
The earth isn't static. It's rotating at 1000 mph.

If the Moon is moving faster or slower in relation to the Earth's surface, there is an issue either way.

If the Earth is rotating faster than the Moon, leaving it behind, then the Moon will see the Earth rotating with the East Coast of the United States oncoming to it. And the shadow will begin in the East.

stack · « **Reply #19 on:** May 17, 2019, 10:58:58 PM »

Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 10:55:36 PM

Quote from: markjo on May 17, 2019, 10:54:29 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on May 17, 2019, 10:51:11 PM
If the Earth is static in your image...
The earth isn't static. It's rotating at 1000 mph.

If the Moon is rotating faster or slower than the Earth's surface, there is an issue either way.

Not following, but in any case: Here's an animation for the 2016 Solar eclipse very similar to the one I posted for the 2017 eclipse. Earth day (1 rotation) = 24ish hours. It takes the moon 27ish days to orbit the earth. The umbra moves west to east slightly outpacing the speed of earth's rotation. Which way does any shadow move as the sun is moving west? East. What about it has you so confused?

Here's an even deeper explanation if you require it:

https://www.space.com/36388-total-solar-eclipse-2017-duration.html