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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2020, 01:13:48 AM »
We already have a RE model for May 10. The image you edited is a model the author retrieved from the NASA Scientific Visualization Studio for May 10.

You appear to be telling us that the axis and other elements of the model is wrong and requires some Microsont Paint corrections. What you drew also apparently shows the nights in the NH getting longer after the March Equinox, rather than shorter as commonly believed, in order to get the Moon above the horizon so that you can explain this.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 01:50:16 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline model 29

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2020, 04:19:57 AM »
The author goes to lengths to explain that it doesn't really matter.
The author also apparently thinks highly of Nathan Oakley according to the opening of that video.  This tells me he probably doesn't understand what he's talking about.

Quote
I would suggest finding some way to make these observations possible in RE. I have not yet seen an explanation for this.
I did a quick modeling of it on GE.  Looks ok to me.  Did they even consider the moon's 5 degree tilt of its orbital plane?  Why is the visible horizon not based on North 52?  Was Earth's axial tilt at that time of year factored into all this?

Is there even a point in explaining all this to you Tom?

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Online Tumeni

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2020, 07:50:57 AM »
We already have a RE model for May 10. The image you edited is a model the author retrieved from the NASA Scientific Visualization Studio for May 10.

The author edited it first, with his yellow and red lines.... Agree?
The author placed the red line in the wrong place ... Agree?


You appear to be telling us that the axis and other elements of the model is wrong and requires some Microsont Paint corrections. What you drew also apparently shows the nights in the NH getting longer after the March Equinox, rather than shorter as commonly believed, in order to get the Moon above the horizon so that you can explain this.

The illustration is not to scale.

 I agree his pointer to the sun. I added the axial tilt, since the author had not shown it, and whether or not the grey line points exactly to the Moon is moot, as the Moon is so far off scale as to be laughable. Give or take a few degrees, the Moon was out there in that general direction.

The point is ... whether or not Blunham had a sightline to the Moon. The author simply drew a line on the opposite side of the Sun, as far away from the sun as possible. The red line. That's not where Blunham is, or was, at that time. It's not even a correct representation of midnight on that night. Midnight on the clock did not occur at a midpoint between sunset and sunrise.

The black dot shows the North Pole, the orange dots the general path of Blunham. Given the sunset and sunrise times quoted, it would be nearer sunset, more toward the left-hand orange dot, than sunrise, at the right.

Why do you think the night is represented as being longer? The axial tilt pointing in the direction of the sun makes it shorter. I've written out the sunset and sunrise times which correspond to that date, and these show night as 8h36m; so a short night, compared to a day of around 15.5 hours....
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 08:15:11 AM by Tumeni »
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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2020, 08:12:59 AM »
We already have a RE model for May 10. The image you edited is a model the author retrieved from the NASA Scientific Visualization Studio for May 10.

The "model" is not defined by a single "visualisation" on a single date.
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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2020, 09:06:00 AM »
In the wordpress blog, he goes off the rails when he takes the horizon definitions from below "Note from the below, how the visible horizon as depicted in modern education (Albeit in the context of so-called celestial parallax)" and then arbitrarily draws them onto unspecified locations on the globe.

The parallax diagram is drawn as a side-on view of an observer at an idealised polar position, and the blogger has applied this to a number of views which represent the Earth top down. So he's 90 degrees out of whack every time. And he placed the horizons in locations which do not correspond to the mooncalc location. So that's out of whack too.

I have no issue with the observer at the true position of Blunham (orange dot) having a sightline to the Moon (green lines). I can show with the 3D globe that Blunham was approximately there at that date and time.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 09:08:34 AM by Tumeni »
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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2020, 10:08:28 AM »
I suspect part of the confusion here is an inability to think in 3 dimensions.
Just because the moon is on the other side of the earth to the sun, that doesn't mean they are in a complete line in 3D space.
Sometimes they are, that's when we get an eclipse, but often they're not and that's how light can hit the moon on the night side of the earth at certain points in its phase.
I look forward to Tomeni's model.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2020, 10:46:46 AM »
I look forward to Tomeni's model.

Here you are;



The sun is at zero degrees, the axial tilt approx 30 degrees off that, and the Moon, at this stage in its cycle, would be approx 70 degrees off the line to the sun.

Blunham is under the green cocktail stick, and the green continuation line to the left of this shows how this location would have a sightline to the Moon.

I may have the alignment of the camera slightly off, but it's showing the principle, and it's more realistic than the blogger's graphics....
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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2020, 10:57:36 AM »


The path followed by Blunham during Earth's rotation, shown in blue.

The larger portion of this path is on the sun side of the globe, showing Tom that this model has shorter night, not longer ....

Also, the five degree inclination of the Moon's orbit could place it above the centre line of the Earth, and thus make it easier to see from Blunham.

EDIT - another go; colour coded to match the blogger's graphic that I edited above

« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 11:37:15 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2020, 01:33:30 PM »
Tunemi, you just drew a line on the Earth and claimed that the observer could see the Moon behind the Earth's curvature over there. What is the difference between doing that and drawing a line over the North Pole and claiming that the observer can see the Moon on the opposite side of the Earth?

You need to figure out if the observer can actually see behind the Earth's curvature, not draw a line.

The argument you are putting fourth appears to be insufficient. We can also see that your observer's night horizon at Midnight is taking up more than a straight line 180 degree range from a top down view of that city, meaning that you are once again claiming that nights are longer after the March Equinox.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 01:43:29 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2020, 01:57:24 PM »
Tunemi, you just drew a line on the Earth and claimed that the observer could see the Moon behind the Earth's curvature over there. What is the difference between doing that and drawing a line over the North Pole and claiming that the observer can see the Moon on the opposite side of the Earth?

You need to figure out if the observer can actually see behind the Earth's curvature, not draw a line.

The argument you are putting fourth appears to be insufficient. We can also see that your observer's night horizon at Midnight is taking up more than a straight line 180 degree range from a top down view of that city, meaning that you are once again claiming that nights are longer after the March Equinox.

There is no curvature to be looked over.

The vertical and horizontal yellows indicate the centre point of the globe, and the position of the UK is to the left of the vertical. All the "curvature" will therefore be out of the way of a direct sightline. Simple geometry, Tom.

EDIT to include image
EDIT 2 for avoidance of doubt, the viewpoint here is looking at the night side of the Earth, along the Sun/Earth orbital plane, so the Sun would be directly behind the Earth illustrated here, along the centre of the horizontal and vertical yellow lines.



The grey dotted line showing the path of Blunham through the night is shorter than the blue one, which shows its progress through the day, so - shorter night, longer day. I have no idea how you are reaching your conclusion, perhaps you should rephrase this

"observer's night horizon at Midnight is taking up more than a straight line 180 degree range from a top down view of that city".

??? Clarify, please

Blunham's sunset before midnight was at 20.42, sunrise at 05.16 the following day. So at midnight, Blunham was closer to sunset than sunrise, so further to the left than the centre point indicated in yellow. Sunset was 3h20 short of midnight, with sunrise 5h16m after it. Midnight was not at the exact opposite of the sun
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 03:27:56 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2020, 03:10:45 PM »
Also

http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/moon/moonnodes2001.html

May 09  18:50 ascending node
May 22  19:12 descending

On May 10, the Moon would have been ABOVE the Sun/Earth orbital plane, thus making it even easier to see from the
Northern Hemisphere.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2020, 03:45:18 PM »
In the wordpress blog, he goes off the rails when he takes the horizon definitions from below "Note from the below, how the visible horizon as depicted in modern education (Albeit in the context of so-called celestial parallax)" and then arbitrarily draws them onto unspecified locations on the globe.

The parallax diagram is drawn as a side-on view of an observer at an idealised polar position, and the blogger has applied this to a number of views which represent the Earth top down. So he's 90 degrees out of whack every time. And he placed the horizons in locations which do not correspond to the mooncalc location. So that's out of whack too.

I have no issue with the observer at the true position of Blunham (orange dot) having a sightline to the Moon (green lines). I can show with the 3D globe that Blunham was approximately there at that date and time.



If this were a physical globe and if we took a plane, and held it up to the globe, would is be possible to get the horizon in the correct positions for what is supposed to be midnight for the observer?

The observer sees in a plane which rests on the surface of a sphere, and what you posted makes no sense at all. Tilting the plane to the West would mess up the opposite side.

If it is midnight, the midway point should intersect the middle of the plane. The only allowance for tilting should be a North-South tilt due to the tilt of the Earth.

Once again you are merely drawing lines through the Earth's curvature, without regard to what the observer should be able to see. Put a plane on the surface of the earth to represent the observer's field of vision, rather than drawing arbitrary lines through the earth.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 03:52:38 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2020, 03:58:19 PM »
Please confirm when you have read up to and including #70, Tom.
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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2020, 04:43:23 PM »
If this were a physical globe

I've shown multiple examples above using a physical globe, Tom. Please advise when you have digested all of them

and if we took a plane, and held it up to the globe, would is be possible to get the horizon in the correct positions for what is supposed to be midnight for the observer?

We don't need a plane, all we need is a pointer, for all we are considering is "Can the observer in Blunham see the Moon?" - a single sightline - so the simple cocktail stick pointer on my physical globe will suffice.

Tilting the plane to the West would mess up the opposite side.

Why would we need to tilt it, and what would be messed up? Why does it matter what happens on "the opposite side". Which IS the opposite side, anyway? Opposite what?

If it is midnight, the midway point should intersect the middle of the plane.


The "midway point" of what? I've already shown that midnight on the clock did NOT correspond to the halfway point between dusk and dawn, and that Blunham would only have been 3/8ths, less than half, of the way through its night.

The only allowance for tilting should be a North-South tilt due to the tilt of the Earth.

The axial tilt. I allowed for that

Once again you are merely drawing lines through the Earth's curvature, without regard to what the observer should be able to see.

I'm not drawing them "through" anything. I've shown the Moon was above the Sun/Earth plane, and that Blunham was in the hemisphere that faces the Moon, allowing a clear sightline.

Put a plane on the surface of the earth to represent the observer's field of vision, rather than drawing arbitrary lines through the earth.

We're not concerned with the observer's L/R up/down field of vision, only the specific sightline to the Moon. So a pointer will suffice.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2020, 06:41:06 PM »
This is what you posted:



This is how we see on an RE:



Our range of vision is a plane resting on a sphere. Your lines assume that the Earth is flat, and cut through a Round Earth.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 06:43:51 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #75 on: February 18, 2020, 06:49:58 PM »
This is what you posted:

img snipped

This is how we see on an RE:



Our range of vision is a plane resting on a sphere. Your lines assume that the Earth is flat, and cut through a Round Earth.

No, they do not. How do you conclude that they do?

Look at all the posts which followed. The position of the orange dot is where Blunham was, and there's nothing between there and the moon.

We're only concerned with the u-axis. Can the observer at Blunham see the moon along this axis? Don't care what he sees vertically above, or at 90 degrees from the sight line to the moon.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 06:52:25 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2020, 06:57:57 PM »
A side view of the observer's viewing plane:



If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 07:02:28 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2020, 07:17:21 PM »
This is what I was talking about above, Tom. You have drawn a 2D diagram but the real world is 3D and the angles are more complicated than that.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2020, 07:22:19 PM »
This is what I was talking about above, Tom. You have drawn a 2D diagram but the real world is 3D and the angles are more complicated than that.

Then figure it out rather than appealing to "angles are more complicated than that." I see that you have put zero effort into an explanation for this.
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Re: Moon and Stars
« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2020, 07:30:03 PM »
If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.
If it's solar midnight - surely he can't see the Moon lying in equator's plane. But 11:59 UTC+1 is far from midnight, and the Moon isn't in equator's plane.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 08:03:33 PM by wpeszko »