The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Jay Seneca on February 03, 2020, 02:21:48 AM

Title: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 03, 2020, 02:21:48 AM
How is it possible that the moon doesn’t pass in front of any stars. I kind of understand how it works on a flat Earth. But I’m curious what’s the explanation for it on a round earth. And if it does, I’ve never seen it happen.  And I have watched the moon move across the night sky many of times.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Hants on February 03, 2020, 09:14:37 AM
Because you only live once.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: RoundLurker on February 03, 2020, 09:52:46 AM
How is it possible that the moon doesn’t pass in front of any stars. I kind of understand how it works on a flat Earth. But I’m curious what’s the explanation for it on a round earth. And if it does, I’ve never seen it happen.  And I have watched the moon move across the night sky many of times.

The moon passes in front of the sun (our closest star) during a solar eclipse. This is visible from somewhere on Earth roughly every 18 months, but from any one location, total eclipses take place once in several hundred years ish.

For other stars, this is referred to as occultation.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occultation
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 03, 2020, 09:58:18 AM
RL, while your answer is obviously correct within the RET paradigm, I think it's fair to assume OP is referring to more distant stars as seen at night time.

That said, I'm not sure why he thinks the moon never passes in front of those either. It quite clearly does. Perhaps the issue is that the stars' light wouldn't be particularly easy (or impossible) to see when the moon is nearby in the field of view? I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: RoundLurker on February 03, 2020, 10:24:56 AM
Yah agree, should have started my response with "Us roundies reckon that..."

This section of the wiki I linked to covers the distant stars point, and is vaguely interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occultation#Occultations_by_the_Moon

I guess anecdotally OP hasn't seen this for him/herself because, as you say, the moon is much brighter. Probably like trying to see flashlight 50 meters away with car headlights in your eyes. 

Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 03, 2020, 05:36:58 PM
I’m saying as much as I watched the moon move across the night sky. I haven’t once seen a star disappear behind the moon. And if you answer honestly, I’m pretty sure you haven’t either.   
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 03, 2020, 06:17:27 PM
Just as you’ll never see a star cross over another star. They all run in perfect circles around the North Star. And that should not be if stars are at different distances from Earth.
Sit in a chair and find 2 objects one close and one far away that lines up with each other.   Spin in a circle and watch the 2 objects move apart.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 03, 2020, 10:29:39 PM
Just as you’ll never see a star cross over another star. They all run in perfect circles around the North Star. And that should not be if stars are at different distances from Earth.
Sit in a chair and find 2 objects one close and one far away that lines up with each other.   Spin in a circle and watch the 2 objects move apart.
You are describing parallax. The further things are away, the less motion you will see because of that and the stars are unimaginably far away relative to distances humans experience day to day.

And if the stars are moving in circles around the North Star why are different stars observed from the Southern Hemisphere and they are observed rotating in the opposite direction?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tim Alphabeaver on February 03, 2020, 10:55:48 PM
I’m saying as much as I watched the moon move across the night sky. I haven’t once seen a star disappear behind the moon. And if you answer honestly, I’m pretty sure you haven’t either.
Well I suppose I haven't seen a star disappear behind the moon... but neither have I seen a star move in front of the moon.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 04, 2020, 06:39:25 AM
Poke small holes in a tarp.  The number of holes will be however many stars you can see. Put it above your head and watch how many times the moon will pass over a hole.
Weird how everything seems to be synced with each other being that they are suppose to be random and unconnected with each other.(Moon and Stars outside our solar system)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 04, 2020, 10:30:15 AM
.Weird how everything seems to be synced with each other being that they are suppose to be random and unconnected with each other.(Moon and Stars outside our solar system)
It's not weird, it's exactly what you'd expect if the stars are distant and we live on a rotating globe.
If you're in the northern hemisphere then you'd see the stars rotating above a central northern point - there happens to be a star there which we can see (although it's not exactly over the north pole, but it's close) but that's just happenstance.
In the Southern hemisphere you'd expect to see different stars rotating around a southern point and that is what's observed - in the south there is no equivalent pole star.
My question to you is how those observations could make sense on a flat earth.
The observation in the northern hemisphere could be explained on a flat earth by stars rotating above us but the southern hemisphere observation would need a different explanation.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 04, 2020, 01:06:06 PM
And if the stars were at very different differences then the star trails wouldn’t be uniformed and never crossing each other. Just like you want see the moon move in front of a star. Everything was put in place perfectly.  And there is no South Pole. A Northern hemisphere compass will not work properly in the Southern Hemisphere and vice versa.  But both compasses will point correctly to the North. Because there is nothing south it could point.
The reason you can’t see some of the northern hemisphere stars in the Southern Hemisphere is the same reason the Sun doesn’t light up the entire Flat Earth. The same reason one light bulb will not light up Yankee Stadium.  The more lumens the light has the further you will be able to see it.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: RoundLurker on February 04, 2020, 03:10:26 PM
I’m saying as much as I watched the moon move across the night sky. I haven’t once seen a star disappear behind the moon. And if you answer honestly, I’m pretty sure you haven’t either.

This is the event you're describing (lunar occultation):
https://time.com/4185018/watch-star-disappear-moon/
https://www.space.com/31609-moon-block-star-aldebaran-tuesday.html

Here's another example from the University of Hawai'i:
https://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~barnes/ASTR110L_F03/lunaroccultation.html

As a slight aside, Aristotle recorded the Moon covering Mars on April 4, 357 B.C:
https://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/celestial-objects-to-watch/occultations/

I've never investigated this personally as I don't believe it warrants it - but if you'd like to disprove it, read up on the equipment required and record the outcome for us?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 04, 2020, 03:29:31 PM
A Northern hemisphere compass will not work properly in the Southern Hemisphere and vice versa.
Do you really think that's a thing?
I already explained the parallax thing.
I note you ignored the question about the observation of starts rotating around a southern point from the southern hemisphere in the opposite direction than the way they rotate in the northern hemisphere. Do you have an explanation or are you just denying that happens?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 04, 2020, 04:22:23 PM
I don’t understand. All stars rotate east to west. Like a giant disco ball(Exactly like a disco ball) turning with mirrored walls(the dome).
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tim Alphabeaver on February 07, 2020, 03:20:34 AM
But both compasses will point correctly to the North. Because there is nothing south it could point.
What about the south pole? Last I checked, magnets attract to both north and south poles.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 08, 2020, 05:25:59 PM
But both compasses will point correctly to the North. Because there is nothing south it could point.
What about the south pole? Last I checked, magnets attract to both north and south poles.

The North Pole holds over 20 different mammals and 100 different types of birds. Has an average temp of 32F where the South Pole is somewhere around -60F no plants or animal life. I live around 30 Longitude and it’s  closer to the weather at the North Pole than the North Pole is to Antarctica much less the South Pole.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 08, 2020, 05:27:58 PM
I don’t understand. All stars rotate east to west. Like a giant disco ball(Exactly like a disco ball) turning with mirrored walls(the dome).

The direction of the rotation of the stars depends on the hemisphere you're in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNiNJC3UHIo

How would you explain that in your model?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 08, 2020, 06:10:58 PM
It looked like the stars were all found the same way. They had that one shot where the camera was tilted so the longer runs were towards center of stars. But all found the same direction.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 08, 2020, 06:16:57 PM
I don’t understand. All stars rotate east to west. Like a giant disco ball(Exactly like a disco ball) turning with mirrored walls(the dome).

The direction of the rotation of the stars depends on the hemisphere y
I don’t understand. All stars rotate east to west. Like a giant disco ball(Exactly like a disco ball) turning with mirrored walls(the dome).

The direction of the rotation of the stars depends on the hemisphere you're in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNiNJC3UHIo

How would you explain that in your model?

How would you explain that in your model?


Also you can tell because in the bottom left the stars are going the slowest because smaller circles around North Star and the top right are the stars are moving the fastest. All going around one since point.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 08, 2020, 07:59:48 PM
Jay, picture it this way;

In any square or rectangular room in your home, place a ball in the centre, such as a basketball or football.

Draw imaginary lines to the four corners of the room at the ceiling, and another four to the corners at the floor

Imagine yourself standing on top of the ball, as if you are in the Northern Hemisphere. If you spin the ball anti-clockwise, the equivalent of West to East on Earth, the corners will appear to move from your left to your right. Agree? Your viewpoint will be moving right to left, and the points will move in your field of view from left to right.

Agree?

Imagine yourself standing on the base of the ball. You spin it anti-clockwise. The corners will now appear to move right to left, won't they?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 09, 2020, 01:00:59 AM
Jay, picture it this way;

In any square or rectangular room in your home, place a ball in the centre, such as a basketball or football.

Draw imaginary lines to the four corners of the room at the ceiling, and another four to the corners at the floor

Imagine yourself standing on top of the ball, as if you are in the Northern Hemisphere. If you spin the ball anti-clockwise, the equivalent of West to East on Earth, the corners will appear to move from your left to your right. Agree? Your viewpoint will be moving right to left, and the points will move in your field of view from left to right.

Agree?

Imagine yourself standing on the base of the ball. You spin it anti-clockwise. The corners will now appear to move right to left, won't they?

I agree. But that’s not what’s happening in the video. It might look like that at first but the stars in the bottom left corner are going the slowest.  Meaning small circles around the pole.  The upper right corner is going the fastest on the page.  Which means it’s not circulating around a different  pole but all the stars are circulating around the same star. 
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 09, 2020, 06:24:51 AM
In fact,  something was wrong with every video I watched tonight that had stars that were supposedly going different directions towards each pole.  On a RE The stars at the equator should look like there moving the fastest and at each pole should be the slowest moving stars. The only vids I could find were slow moving stars at one Pole. Fast moving stars at the equator. And faster moving stars closer to the opposite pole.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 09, 2020, 11:48:18 AM
I agree. But that’s not what’s happening in the video.

Yes, the photographer was not AT the North Pole, was he?

So the next stage is to picture yourself standing not ON the pole, but at some point below it, looking Northward toward the pole, and the point above it. Such as a light fitting in the centre of the room.

You would be on the ball, at some angle between vertical and horizontal, and if you looked up to the light fitting directly above the pole, and had the corners of the room in view as well, with the ball spinning anti-clockwise, the corners would move from your left to right, clockwise around the light fitting

Agree?

What happens if you imagine yourself between the middle and bottom of the ball, looking toward an equivalent polar point on the floor? Which way would the corners be seen to move? From your right to left? Anti-clockwise around the point on the floor?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 09, 2020, 06:57:50 PM
I agree. But that’s not what’s happening in the video.

Yes, the photographer was not AT the North Pole, was he?

So the next stage is to picture yourself standing not ON the pole, but at some point below it, looking Northward toward the pole, and the point above it. Such as a light fitting in the centre of the room.

You would be on the ball, at some angle between vertical and horizontal, and if you looked up to the light fitting directly above the pole, and had the corners of the room in view as well, with the ball spinning anti-clockwise, the corners would move from your left to right, clockwise around the light fitting

Agree?

What happens if you imagine yourself between the middle and bottom of the ball, looking toward an equivalent polar point on the floor? Which way would the corners be seen to move? From your right to left? Anti-clockwise around the point on the floor?

Maybe we’re talking about different parts of the vid. There point was if your standing at the equator stars on one side will turn toward one pole and stars on the other side will turn toward the opposite pole.  But that’s not true. All stars revolve around the North Star. And you can tell in the videos because the stars are moving faster the further they are from the North Star.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 09, 2020, 07:14:01 PM
Their point was if your standing at the equator stars on one side will turn toward one pole and stars on the other side will turn toward the opposite pole. 

I don't think that was their point at all. From the text intro; "Time-lapse and star trail video's compiled into a movie - each clip contains around 500 stills rendered using LightRoom and StarStax. The images were taken in summer on the Island of Guernsey UK for the Northern Hemisphere, and the Warrumbungle Ranges near Siding Springs Australia for the Southern Hemisphere."

Neither location is "on" the equator.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 10, 2020, 01:58:12 AM
A Northern hemisphere compass will not work properly in the Southern Hemisphere and vice versa.
Do you really think that's a thing?
I already explained the parallax thing.
I note you ignored the question about the observation of starts rotating around a southern point from the southern hemisphere in the opposite direction than the way they rotate in the northern hemisphere. Do you have an explanation or are you just denying that happens?
I don’t understand. All stars rotate east to west. Like a giant disco ball(Exactly like a disco ball) turning with mirrored walls(the dome).

The direction of the rotation of the stars depends on the hemisphere you're in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNiNJC3UHIo

How would you explain that in your model?

All around the world first sent me the video asking me my explanation about the stars rotating around the hemispheres in opposite direction.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 10, 2020, 09:29:36 AM
In fact,  something was wrong with every video I watched tonight that had stars that were supposedly going different directions towards each pole.  On a RE The stars at the equator should look like there moving the fastest and at each pole should be the slowest moving stars. The only vids I could find were slow moving stars at one Pole. Fast moving stars at the equator. And faster moving stars closer to the opposite pole.

I don't know how one sensibly compares speeds between videos, you'd need to know the rate at which the timelapse was taken.
Here are videos showing a sun timelapse in the south:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgZa9oZDN5g

And the north:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOCCSegL8ic

Note how the sun moves in opposite directions (well, obviously it's actually the earth spinning in different directions).
This demonstrates the same effect as shown above.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: thors_evil_twin on February 10, 2020, 03:28:04 PM
In time lapse photos why are the star trails curved one direction in the north and another direction in the south? Oh and please explain why the star trails are longer the further your get away from Polaris in the north and Crux in the south? 
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 11, 2020, 01:06:53 PM
In time lapse photos why are the star trails curved one direction in the north and another direction in the south? Oh and please explain why the star trails are longer the further your get away from Polaris in the north and Crux in the south? 

I’m not sure if they do curve opposite directions.  If that’s the case the stars would travel the fastest at the equator and slow down in both directions.  All the videos I’ve seen, only one side slows down and the side that looks like it curves in the opposite directions actually speeds up. But if it was the Southern Hemisphere and curving towards the South Pole the stars would start slowing down again. So what you are seeing in these videos are not 2 hemispheres but still only 1. 
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 11, 2020, 01:19:31 PM
And if your just asking why one looks like it’s spinning clockwards and anti clockwards it’s cause they used mirrors. You can tell at the end it’s the same tree line but looks like the stars are going different directions.  And also the constellations are all northern hemisphere Constellations.  My question to you is why would you have to fake a video to get your results your looking for?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: totallackey on February 11, 2020, 01:20:33 PM
I don’t understand. All stars rotate east to west. Like a giant disco ball(Exactly like a disco ball) turning with mirrored walls(the dome).

The direction of the rotation of the stars depends on the hemisphere you're in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNiNJC3UHIo

How would you explain that in your model?
Quit posting patently false information.

The direction the stars rotate over your head depend on the direction you are facing while standing still on the flat earth plane.

If you are facing north, the stars are moving from your right side to your left.

If you are facing south, the stars are moving from your left side to your right.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 11, 2020, 02:37:48 PM
Quit posting patently false information.
The direction the stars rotate over your head depend on the direction you are facing while standing still on the flat earth plane.
If you are facing north, the stars are moving from your right side to your left.
If you are facing south, the stars are moving from your left side to your right.

Can you describe or illustrate how that happens?

I can refer back to my posts above which do this for a globe, but if (for example) you have a flat plane with "North" in the centre, surely looking over that point to the other side is the same as looking South from the other side. If you disagree, give us an illustration of what you mean ...
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: totallackey on February 11, 2020, 04:21:02 PM
Quit posting patently false information.
The direction the stars rotate over your head depend on the direction you are facing while standing still on the flat earth plane.
If you are facing north, the stars are moving from your right side to your left.
If you are facing south, the stars are moving from your left side to your right.

Can you describe or illustrate how that happens?

I can refer back to my posts above which do this for a globe, but if (for example) you have a flat plane with "North" in the centre, surely looking over that point to the other side is the same as looking South from the other side. If you disagree, give us an illustration of what you mean ...
Yes.

On a clear night, go to a very dark place and stand facing north for about one hour pointing a camera to the heavens and allow the camera shutter to remain open.

Then, stand facing south repeating the process described above.

Or, watch the videos here.

It is evident the guy is facing north, then turning to face south.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: ImAnEngineerToo on February 11, 2020, 11:50:45 PM
And if your just asking why one looks like it’s spinning clockwards and anti clockwards it’s cause they used mirrors. You can tell at the end it’s the same tree line but looks like the stars are going different directions.  And also the constellations are all northern hemisphere Constellations.  My question to you is why would you have to fake a video to get your results your looking for?

Oh there it is. It’s fake. I’ve been lurking here waiting for that.

Get the nightcap app on your iPhone and do a time lapse video and get whatever evidence you want to get and then share your results here.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 13, 2020, 06:21:29 AM
And if your just asking why one looks like it’s spinning clockwards and anti clockwards it’s cause they used mirrors. You can tell at the end it’s the same tree line but looks like the stars are going different directions.  And also the constellations are all northern hemisphere Constellations.  My question to you is why would you have to fake a video to get your results your looking for?

Well you explain how you have northern hemisphere constellations but one turns clock-wards and the other counter clockwise 

Oh there it is. It’s fake. I’ve been lurking here waiting for that.

Get the nightcap app on your iPhone and do a time lapse video and get whatever evidence you want to get and then share your results here.

You explain how you have northern hemisphere constellations in both clips but in one clip the stars turn clock-wards and the other counter clock-wards
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 13, 2020, 11:21:23 AM
You explain how you have northern hemisphere constellations in both clips but in one clip the stars turn clock-wards and the other counter clock-wards

Can you show which constellations are in both videos? Stars which are "above" the equator would possibly be in both, depending on where the videos were taken from. But I've never seen the Southern Cross. People in Australia have never seen Polaris. Why would that be on a flat earth?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 13, 2020, 12:03:57 PM
You explain how you have northern hemisphere constellations in both clips

Please show us which ones you mean.

In case the next question is "how do I ..."

Screen capture from video, image edit software to label them, upload to Imgur or similar, link here
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 16, 2020, 06:30:25 PM
You explain how you have northern hemisphere constellations in both clips but in one clip the stars turn clock-wards and the other counter clock-wards

Can you show which constellations are in both videos? Stars which are "above" the equator would possibly be in both, depending on where the videos were taken from. But I've never seen the Southern Cross. People in Australia have never seen Polaris. Why would that be on a flat earth?

There all northern hemisphere constellations. That’s why they make constellations maps on FE maps.
And back to my original question. Why doesn’t the moon pass in front of any stars.  You will never see a star disappear behind the moon because the moon passes in between a star and earth. No matter where you stand at ok Earth.
It takes the moon 28 days to make a round trip around a RE. 14 days on the side of the sun and 14 days on the night side. That means you shouldn’t be able to see the moon for 14 nights. Especially during the winter months. But yet you do. 
So much that doesn’t add up for a RE but I’m trying to stay in topic.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 16, 2020, 07:03:18 PM
I’m saying as much as I watched the moon move across the night sky. I haven’t once seen a star disappear behind the moon. And if you answer honestly, I’m pretty sure you haven’t either.

This is the event you're describing (lunar occultation):
https://time.com/4185018/watch-star-disappear-moon/
https://www.space.com/31609-moon-block-star-aldebaran-tuesday.html

Here's another example from the University of Hawai'i:
https://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~barnes/ASTR110L_F03/lunaroccultation.html

As a slight aside, Aristotle recorded the Moon covering Mars on April 4, 357 B.C:
https://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/celestial-objects-to-watch/occultations/

I've never investigated this personally as I don't believe it warrants it - but if you'd like to disprove it, read up on the equipment required and record the outcome for us?

Sorry I missed your comment. I got side tracked.  So most of the articles they are talking about planets(but they use to be called wondering stars).  The other articles I read a lot of might see or possible and only show pictures of the moon with the object next to it.   The second article has a lot of stars surrounding the moon but says the moon will only pass in front of one but doesn’t show any evidence b of that. Just a picture with the star next to it.
But doesn’t matter because all can be faked. The only proof you need is to go outside at night and look for yourself. All the stars in the night sky the moon should definitely pass in front of plenty. And I have watched many of nights and haven’t seen it happen. And not one person on here says they seen it happen either.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 16, 2020, 08:01:46 PM
It takes the moon 28 days to make a round trip around a RE. 14 days on the side of the sun and 14 days on the night side. That means you shouldn’t be able to see the moon for 14 nights.

...except that (in the globe model, according to the textbooks and other sources) the Earth rotates once every 24 hours or so within those 28 days. So there's no fixed "night side" to the Earth. There's roughly 28 days and nights to each lunar cycle
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 16, 2020, 08:06:41 PM
The second article has a lot of stars surrounding the moon but says the moon will only pass in front of one but doesn’t show any evidence b of that. Just a picture with the star next to it.

Took me 30 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm9bovjIZKY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQvmNADgbDA

https://www.astronomylabs.com/blog/-the-october-18-2016-lunar-occultation-of-the-star-aldebaran

More?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 17, 2020, 07:52:40 AM
It takes the moon 28 days to make a round trip around a RE. 14 days on the side of the sun and 14 days on the night side. That means you shouldn’t be able to see the moon for 14 nights.

...except that (in the globe model, according to the textbooks and other sources) the Earth rotates once every 24 hours or so within those 28 days. So there's no fixed "night side" to the Earth. There's roughly 28 days and nights to each lunar cycle


What are you talking about. For 14 days the moon will be on the same side as the Sun.  Day will alway be on the same side as the sun and nights will always be on the opposite side of the sun.  FE rotates every 24 hours so everyone on a RE has a night and day and every night is on the same side.  Which is the opposite that the sun is on.

Take a quarter and run it from one side of the sky to the other and see how many stars you pass over. Thats how many stars the moon should pass over on the 14 nights the moon is on the opposite side of the sun. The other 14 days it’s on the same side as the Sun, shouldn’t even be seen at night.  But yet it is.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 17, 2020, 09:17:10 AM
What are you talking about.

... could well ask you the same question, since you're mixing your FE and RE theory below, and can't seem to make up your mind which one you want to cite.

For 14 days the moon will be on the same side as the Sun. 

Yes, that would be, in RE, the hemisphere that faces the Sun. Which changes (for those on the surface) with every Earth day and night as the Earth rotates, so you move through that hemisphere.

Day will alway be on the same side as the sun and nights will always be on the opposite side of the sun.  FE rotates every 24 hours so everyone on a RE has a night and day and every night is on the same side.  Which is the opposite that the sun is on.

Yes. And those days and nights, for those on the surface, move under the Moon on RE, which only moves (24/360 = ) 7 degrees of its orbit for each Earth night and day, with the observers moving 360 degrees in the same time.

Take a quarter and run it from one side of the sky to the other and see how many stars you pass over. Thats how many stars the moon should pass over on the 14 nights the moon is on the opposite side of the sun. The other 14 days it’s on the same side as the Sun, shouldn’t even be seen at night.  But yet it is.

What does that tell you, since you think it "shouldn't be seen"? All the observational evidence of every human, ever, contradicts what you think should happen, but tallies exactly with the textbooks (which were written by a group of the millions of astronomers who have studied it as their life's work), the experience of everyone who has studied the Moon, travelled to it, or sent craft to it. It only took me half a minute to find the two videos above which show exactly the event that you claim is not happening ...

Is Astronomy your life's work? How long do you spend looking at the Moon, in comparision to professional astronomers?

Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 17, 2020, 06:51:13 PM
What are you talking about.

... could well ask you the same question, since you're mixing your FE and RE theory below, and can't seem to make up your mind which one you want to cite.

For 14 days the moon will be on the same side as the Sun. 

Yes, that would be, in RE, the hemisphere that faces the Sun. Which changes (for those on the surface) with every Earth day and night as the Earth rotates, so you move through that hemisphere.

Day will alway be on the same side as the sun and nights will always be on the opposite side of the sun.  FE rotates every 24 hours so everyone on a RE has a night and day and every night is on the same side.  Which is the opposite that the sun is on.

Yes. And those days and nights, for those on the surface, move under the Moon on RE, which only moves (24/360 = ) 7 degrees of its orbit for each Earth night and day, with the observers moving 360 degrees in the same time.

Take a quarter and run it from one side of the sky to the other and see how many stars you pass over. Thats how many stars the moon should pass over on the 14 nights the moon is on the opposite side of the sun. The other 14 days it’s on the same side as the Sun, shouldn’t even be seen at night.  But yet it is.

What does that tell you, since you think it "shouldn't be seen"? All the observational evidence of every human, ever, contradicts what you think should happen, but tallies exactly with the textbooks (which were written by a group of the millions of astronomers who have studied it as their life's work), the experience of everyone who has studied the Moon, travelled to it, or sent craft to it. It only took me half a minute to find the two videos above which show exactly the event that you claim is not happening ...

Is Astronomy your life's work? How long do you spend looking at the Moon, in comparision to professional astronomers?


How can you see the moon at night when the moon is on the same side as the Sun
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: model 29 on February 17, 2020, 08:20:44 PM
How is it possible that the moon doesn’t pass in front of any stars. I kind of understand how it works on a flat Earth. But I’m curious what’s the explanation for it on a round earth. And if it does, I’ve never seen it happen.  And I have watched the moon move across the night sky many of times.
They do.  You didn't look close enough.
Just as you’ll never see a star cross over another star. They all run in perfect circles around the North Star. And that should not be if stars are at different distances from Earth.
Sit in a chair and find 2 objects one close and one far away that lines up with each other.   Spin in a circle and watch the 2 objects move apart.
Look at two mountains of varied distance miles away.  Take one step to the side.  How much difference do you see?  This is closer to the scale of Earth's movement in relation to the stars.
How can you see the moon at night when the moon is on the same side as the Sun
Are you saying we can only see half to full moon phases, and that it suddenly vanishes or appears at half moon?  Learn how the phases of the moon works, and when they are visible.

Stars rise in the east and set in then west, and in the northern hemisphere they appear to rotate CCW around a north celestial pole.  In the southern hemisphere they appear to rotate CW around a southern celestial pole.  On the equator one can see them rise straight up and set straight down if they are equatorial stars, and rotate around two opposite celestial poles on the horizon.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 17, 2020, 10:08:52 PM
How can you see the moon at night when the moon is on the same side as the Sun

Like this. View from above. Green lines between Earth (larger circle below) are sightlines from observers in day and night who can see the Moon (smaller circle above).

(https://i.imgur.com/n70cTWN.jpg)



Shall I draw something similar on your graphics above?  Green sightlines from night side of Earth to possible positions of Moon on day side....

(https://i.imgur.com/lcFZEiO.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 17, 2020, 10:26:31 PM
Now tell us how it is possible that some people have seen the crescent moon at midnight: https://savageplane.wordpress.com/2019/02/13/impossible-heliocentric-moon-phases-explained/
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 17, 2020, 10:36:23 PM
Now tell us how it is possible that some people have seen the crescent moon at midnight: https://savageplane.wordpress.com/2019/02/13/impossible-heliocentric-moon-phases-explained/

First;

Specify time, date, place of observation, and some evidence that it was actually seen at that time, date and place.

The author of that page above seems to have taken no account of observer location, nor axial tilt.

If he wants to disprove the globe model, he needs to account for all of it, not just cherry-pick the bits that suit him ....
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 17, 2020, 10:55:12 PM
The author provides observations and locations of it happening, it's in the link. It happens on mooncalc.org as well.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 17, 2020, 10:59:15 PM
The author provides observations and locations of it happening, it's in the link. It happens on mooncalc.org as well.

So, if the author has the photos to prove it happened, and at least one moon calculator confirms it, why does it need to be explained?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 17, 2020, 11:05:41 PM
The author provides observations and locations of it happening, it's in the link. It happens on mooncalc.org as well.

So, if the author has the photos to prove it happened, and at least one moon calculator confirms it, why does it need to be explained?

It needs to be explained because it does not appear to be possible in the RE model

(https://savageplane.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/s-1.png?w=1270)

(https://savageplane.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/t-1.png)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 17, 2020, 11:16:28 PM
Tom, have you tried taking a standard desktop or table top globe, setting it up with model moon and sun, aligning it according to the correct axial tilt for that day of the year, and sighting manually from Milton Keynes (MK44 postcode) toward the Moon?

I know I can do this for myself, but before I do, I'd like to know if you, the author, or anyone else has done it yet. 



... or are we relying totally on the author's second diagram, which apparently attempts to show a visible horizon in an equatorial region, a region which is nowhere near Milton Keynes, thus rendering the diagram invalid?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 17, 2020, 11:22:19 PM
The author goes to lengths to explain that it doesn't really matter. The earth can be cut off at Blunham, or scaled to one's desire, and it's still not possible.

I would suggest finding some way to make these observations possible in RE. I have not yet seen an explanation for this.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 17, 2020, 11:38:06 PM
The author goes to lengths to explain that it doesn't really matter.

What "doesn't really matter"?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 12:29:51 AM
The author goes to lengths to explain that it doesn't really matter.

What "doesn't really matter"?

If the Earth shrunken to half it's size, with Blunham at the edge rather than the equator, the Moon will still be below the horizon.

I see a failure of the Round Earth model to explain this. I thought you said that RE could explain all observations?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 12:31:35 AM
I've modelled it in 3D with a tabletop globe, and here's an approximation, limited by 2D drawing.

(https://i.imgur.com/cVZGBxI.jpg)

A.T. = Axial Tilt

Blunham is in the vicinity of the three orange dots as it crosses midnight, not at the red line

I see no issue with Blunham having a sightline to the Moon at this point.



Talking of midnight, it's well after that in the UK. Back in 8 hours or so
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 12:41:32 AM
In the NH after the March 21st Equinox the nights get shorter, not longer, until summer comes.

You appear to have drawn some arbitrary lines, making the night longer for May 10, in a vain attempt to salvage an explanation for your model. Not convincing.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 12:51:51 AM
In the NH after the March 21st Equinox the nights get shorter, not longer, until summer comes.

You appear to have drawn some arbitrary lines, making the night longer for May 10, in a vain attempt to salvage an explanation for your model. Not convincing.

The video author drew arbitrary lines, with the horizon line for Blunham in totally the wrong place.

I modelled it in 3D with a replica globe, and based the overlay onto his graphic on this 3D picture (upload tomorrow)

10 May is at roughly 2/3 of the timespan between equinox and solstice, so the axial tilt is 30 degrees away from the reference line to the sun. On the equinox it would be 90, 1/3 of the way is 60, and at the solstice it would be zero.

The black dot is the North Pole. 

The sun set on the 10th at 20.42, rose at 5.16 on the 11th. A night of 8h36m. Sunset to midnight = 3h18m, midnight to sunrise 5h16m. So midnight on the clock occurred nearer to sunset than sunrise. 3/8 of the way through the night. Which places Blunham nearer the Moon, as opposed to further round. Nearer the leftmost orange square. Making it easier to see the Moon

If you disagree the lines, let's see your modelling of it.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 12:59:30 AM
Back in 8 hours or so, Tom. Please don't talk about me when I'm gone.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 01:13:48 AM
We already have a RE model for May 10. The image you edited is a model the author retrieved from the NASA Scientific Visualization Studio for May 10.

You appear to be telling us that the axis and other elements of the model is wrong and requires some Microsont Paint corrections. What you drew also apparently shows the nights in the NH getting longer after the March Equinox, rather than shorter as commonly believed, in order to get the Moon above the horizon so that you can explain this.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: model 29 on February 18, 2020, 04:19:57 AM
The author goes to lengths to explain that it doesn't really matter.
The author also apparently thinks highly of Nathan Oakley according to the opening of that video.  This tells me he probably doesn't understand what he's talking about.

Quote
I would suggest finding some way to make these observations possible in RE. I have not yet seen an explanation for this.
I did a quick modeling of it on GE.  Looks ok to me.  Did they even consider the moon's 5 degree tilt of its orbital plane?  Why is the visible horizon not based on North 52?  Was Earth's axial tilt at that time of year factored into all this?

Is there even a point in explaining all this to you Tom?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 07:50:57 AM
We already have a RE model for May 10. The image you edited is a model the author retrieved from the NASA Scientific Visualization Studio for May 10.

The author edited it first, with his yellow and red lines.... Agree?
The author placed the red line in the wrong place ... Agree?


You appear to be telling us that the axis and other elements of the model is wrong and requires some Microsont Paint corrections. What you drew also apparently shows the nights in the NH getting longer after the March Equinox, rather than shorter as commonly believed, in order to get the Moon above the horizon so that you can explain this.

The illustration is not to scale.

 I agree his pointer to the sun. I added the axial tilt, since the author had not shown it, and whether or not the grey line points exactly to the Moon is moot, as the Moon is so far off scale as to be laughable. Give or take a few degrees, the Moon was out there in that general direction.

The point is ... whether or not Blunham had a sightline to the Moon. The author simply drew a line on the opposite side of the Sun, as far away from the sun as possible. The red line. That's not where Blunham is, or was, at that time. It's not even a correct representation of midnight on that night. Midnight on the clock did not occur at a midpoint between sunset and sunrise.

The black dot shows the North Pole, the orange dots the general path of Blunham. Given the sunset and sunrise times quoted, it would be nearer sunset, more toward the left-hand orange dot, than sunrise, at the right.

Why do you think the night is represented as being longer? The axial tilt pointing in the direction of the sun makes it shorter. I've written out the sunset and sunrise times which correspond to that date, and these show night as 8h36m; so a short night, compared to a day of around 15.5 hours....
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 08:12:59 AM
We already have a RE model for May 10. The image you edited is a model the author retrieved from the NASA Scientific Visualization Studio for May 10.

The "model" is not defined by a single "visualisation" on a single date.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 09:06:00 AM
In the wordpress blog, he goes off the rails when he takes the horizon definitions from below "Note from the below, how the visible horizon as depicted in modern education (Albeit in the context of so-called celestial parallax)" and then arbitrarily draws them onto unspecified locations on the globe.

The parallax diagram is drawn as a side-on view of an observer at an idealised polar position, and the blogger has applied this to a number of views which represent the Earth top down. So he's 90 degrees out of whack every time. And he placed the horizons in locations which do not correspond to the mooncalc location. So that's out of whack too.

I have no issue with the observer at the true position of Blunham (orange dot) having a sightline to the Moon (green lines). I can show with the 3D globe that Blunham was approximately there at that date and time.

(https://i.imgur.com/brxOeBF.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 18, 2020, 10:08:28 AM
I suspect part of the confusion here is an inability to think in 3 dimensions.
Just because the moon is on the other side of the earth to the sun, that doesn't mean they are in a complete line in 3D space.
Sometimes they are, that's when we get an eclipse, but often they're not and that's how light can hit the moon on the night side of the earth at certain points in its phase.
I look forward to Tomeni's model.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 10:46:46 AM
I look forward to Tomeni's model.

Here you are;

(https://i.imgur.com/pd5z6ni.jpg)

The sun is at zero degrees, the axial tilt approx 30 degrees off that, and the Moon, at this stage in its cycle, would be approx 70 degrees off the line to the sun.

Blunham is under the green cocktail stick, and the green continuation line to the left of this shows how this location would have a sightline to the Moon.

I may have the alignment of the camera slightly off, but it's showing the principle, and it's more realistic than the blogger's graphics....
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 10:57:36 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/uY5izfK.jpg)

The path followed by Blunham during Earth's rotation, shown in blue.

The larger portion of this path is on the sun side of the globe, showing Tom that this model has shorter night, not longer ....

Also, the five degree inclination of the Moon's orbit could place it above the centre line of the Earth, and thus make it easier to see from Blunham.

EDIT - another go; colour coded to match the blogger's graphic that I edited above

(https://i.imgur.com/hstSoFl.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 01:33:30 PM
Tunemi, you just drew a line on the Earth and claimed that the observer could see the Moon behind the Earth's curvature over there. What is the difference between doing that and drawing a line over the North Pole and claiming that the observer can see the Moon on the opposite side of the Earth?

You need to figure out if the observer can actually see behind the Earth's curvature, not draw a line.

The argument you are putting fourth appears to be insufficient. We can also see that your observer's night horizon at Midnight is taking up more than a straight line 180 degree range from a top down view of that city, meaning that you are once again claiming that nights are longer after the March Equinox.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 01:57:24 PM
Tunemi, you just drew a line on the Earth and claimed that the observer could see the Moon behind the Earth's curvature over there. What is the difference between doing that and drawing a line over the North Pole and claiming that the observer can see the Moon on the opposite side of the Earth?

You need to figure out if the observer can actually see behind the Earth's curvature, not draw a line.

The argument you are putting fourth appears to be insufficient. We can also see that your observer's night horizon at Midnight is taking up more than a straight line 180 degree range from a top down view of that city, meaning that you are once again claiming that nights are longer after the March Equinox.

There is no curvature to be looked over.

The vertical and horizontal yellows indicate the centre point of the globe, and the position of the UK is to the left of the vertical. All the "curvature" will therefore be out of the way of a direct sightline. Simple geometry, Tom.

EDIT to include image
EDIT 2 for avoidance of doubt, the viewpoint here is looking at the night side of the Earth, along the Sun/Earth orbital plane, so the Sun would be directly behind the Earth illustrated here, along the centre of the horizontal and vertical yellow lines.

(https://i.imgur.com/sc2UA50.jpg)

The grey dotted line showing the path of Blunham through the night is shorter than the blue one, which shows its progress through the day, so - shorter night, longer day. I have no idea how you are reaching your conclusion, perhaps you should rephrase this

"observer's night horizon at Midnight is taking up more than a straight line 180 degree range from a top down view of that city".

??? Clarify, please

Blunham's sunset before midnight was at 20.42, sunrise at 05.16 the following day. So at midnight, Blunham was closer to sunset than sunrise, so further to the left than the centre point indicated in yellow. Sunset was 3h20 short of midnight, with sunrise 5h16m after it. Midnight was not at the exact opposite of the sun
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 03:10:45 PM
Also

http://astropixels.com/ephemeris/moon/moonnodes2001.html

May 09  18:50 ascending node
May 22  19:12 descending

On May 10, the Moon would have been ABOVE the Sun/Earth orbital plane, thus making it even easier to see from the
Northern Hemisphere.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 03:45:18 PM
In the wordpress blog, he goes off the rails when he takes the horizon definitions from below "Note from the below, how the visible horizon as depicted in modern education (Albeit in the context of so-called celestial parallax)" and then arbitrarily draws them onto unspecified locations on the globe.

The parallax diagram is drawn as a side-on view of an observer at an idealised polar position, and the blogger has applied this to a number of views which represent the Earth top down. So he's 90 degrees out of whack every time. And he placed the horizons in locations which do not correspond to the mooncalc location. So that's out of whack too.

I have no issue with the observer at the true position of Blunham (orange dot) having a sightline to the Moon (green lines). I can show with the 3D globe that Blunham was approximately there at that date and time.

(https://i.imgur.com/brxOeBF.jpg)

If this were a physical globe and if we took a plane, and held it up to the globe, would is be possible to get the horizon in the correct positions for what is supposed to be midnight for the observer?

The observer sees in a plane which rests on the surface of a sphere, and what you posted makes no sense at all. Tilting the plane to the West would mess up the opposite side.

If it is midnight, the midway point should intersect the middle of the plane. The only allowance for tilting should be a North-South tilt due to the tilt of the Earth.

Once again you are merely drawing lines through the Earth's curvature, without regard to what the observer should be able to see. Put a plane on the surface of the earth to represent the observer's field of vision, rather than drawing arbitrary lines through the earth.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 03:58:19 PM
Please confirm when you have read up to and including #70, Tom.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 04:43:23 PM
If this were a physical globe

I've shown multiple examples above using a physical globe, Tom. Please advise when you have digested all of them

and if we took a plane, and held it up to the globe, would is be possible to get the horizon in the correct positions for what is supposed to be midnight for the observer?

We don't need a plane, all we need is a pointer, for all we are considering is "Can the observer in Blunham see the Moon?" - a single sightline - so the simple cocktail stick pointer on my physical globe will suffice.

Tilting the plane to the West would mess up the opposite side.

Why would we need to tilt it, and what would be messed up? Why does it matter what happens on "the opposite side". Which IS the opposite side, anyway? Opposite what?

If it is midnight, the midway point should intersect the middle of the plane.


The "midway point" of what? I've already shown that midnight on the clock did NOT correspond to the halfway point between dusk and dawn, and that Blunham would only have been 3/8ths, less than half, of the way through its night.

The only allowance for tilting should be a North-South tilt due to the tilt of the Earth.

The axial tilt. I allowed for that

Once again you are merely drawing lines through the Earth's curvature, without regard to what the observer should be able to see.

I'm not drawing them "through" anything. I've shown the Moon was above the Sun/Earth plane, and that Blunham was in the hemisphere that faces the Moon, allowing a clear sightline.

Put a plane on the surface of the earth to represent the observer's field of vision, rather than drawing arbitrary lines through the earth.

We're not concerned with the observer's L/R up/down field of vision, only the specific sightline to the Moon. So a pointer will suffice.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 06:41:06 PM
This is what you posted:

(https://i.imgur.com/a36hDV9.jpg)

This is how we see on an RE:

(https://i.imgur.com/ahuyNu9.png)

Our range of vision is a plane resting on a sphere. Your lines assume that the Earth is flat, and cut through a Round Earth.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 06:49:58 PM
This is what you posted:

img snipped

This is how we see on an RE:

(https://i.imgur.com/ahuyNu9.png)

Our range of vision is a plane resting on a sphere. Your lines assume that the Earth is flat, and cut through a Round Earth.

No, they do not. How do you conclude that they do?

Look at all the posts which followed. The position of the orange dot is where Blunham was, and there's nothing between there and the moon.

We're only concerned with the u-axis. Can the observer at Blunham see the moon along this axis? Don't care what he sees vertically above, or at 90 degrees from the sight line to the moon.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 06:57:57 PM
A side view of the observer's viewing plane:

(https://i.imgur.com/3DAwL8f.png)

If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 18, 2020, 07:17:21 PM
This is what I was talking about above, Tom. You have drawn a 2D diagram but the real world is 3D and the angles are more complicated than that.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 07:22:19 PM
This is what I was talking about above, Tom. You have drawn a 2D diagram but the real world is 3D and the angles are more complicated than that.

Then figure it out rather than appealing to "angles are more complicated than that." I see that you have put zero effort into an explanation for this.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: wpeszko on February 18, 2020, 07:30:03 PM
If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.
If it's solar midnight - surely he can't see the Moon lying in equator's plane. But 11:59 UTC+1 is far from midnight, and the Moon isn't in equator's plane.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 08:48:25 PM
Take your image, flip it left to right, move the origin point slightly left, and you have exactly the same as my graphic, just viewed obliquely from the opposite hemisphere as opposed to my top-down view. 

Don't you see it?

Like this;

(https://i.imgur.com/bSIFrUZ.jpg)

and here's my original with the zero to 90 angle indicated.

(https://i.imgur.com/ihvCFdS.jpg)

Don't you see it?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 09:51:57 PM
If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.

Showed you how, with a series of 3D models. Have you looked at them at all?

Once again, midnight does not occur at the farthest point on Earth from the Sun, for an observer at 52 degrees North.

The combination of their latitude, along with the Earth's axial tilt, toward the left side of the sun, allows them a position with a clear view toward the Moon in the latter part of its first quarter of orbit.

How is it that so much of this fits perfectly consistently with the standard globe model, but you still deny it?

When viewed from above, with some more labels for you;

(https://i.imgur.com/7LW38u8.jpg)

When viewed from the side of the Earth opposite the Sun; 

(https://i.imgur.com/7xQe2UC.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 10:19:52 PM
If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.

1 By virtue of the fact that the Moon is approx 70 degrees through the first quarter of its cycle, so only 20 degrees away from being AT the border between day and night side;
2 By virtue of the Moon having passed an ascending node, placing it above the plane of the Earth and Sun;
3 By virtue of the axial tilt of the Earth pointing toward the Sun (but not directly at it);
4 By virtue of the observation position, already at 52 degrees North, being moved further toward the Sun by the axial tilt
5 By virtue of the fact that midnight is not exactly at the midpoint between sunset and sunrise, placing it closer to the Moon's side of the Earth

All illustrated in the 3D models labelled above. Let me know when you've examined all of them.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 10:52:26 PM
I've examined your argument. You are now drifting to a "not exactly solar midnight" argument, apparently conceding that my argument was correct. Solar Midnight often occurs within an hour of UTC midnight. Find out when Solar Midnight occurs and you will find that the Moon is above the horizon on that night, at that time, for that location.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 10:59:56 PM
I've examined your argument. You are now drifting to a "not exactly solar midnight" argument, apparently conceding that my argument was correct. Solar Midnight often occurs within an hour of UTC midnight. Find out when Solar Midnight occurs and you will find that the Moon is above the horizon on that night, at that time, for that location.

Have not drifted at all. Right from the start, I outlined that sunset and sunrise times indicate where and when Blunham crossed the terminator, and the differences in those times tell you where it was at midnight on the clock. Midnight on the clock places it closer to the Moon, on the side of the Earth facing the Moon. 

You need to show everyone watching here what difference would be made to the observation by observing at either solar midnight, or at midnight on the clock. You need to define what difference it makes. You introduced the topic first. You go first. You also need to show exactly when the observer observed.   
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 11:05:04 PM
Reply #47

Now tell us how it is possible that some people have seen the crescent moon at midnight: https://savageplane.wordpress.com/2019/02/13/impossible-heliocentric-moon-phases-explained/

Were you talking about solar midnight here, Tom? If so, why didn't you say so?



If the Earth shrunken to half it's size, with Blunham at the edge rather than the equator, the Moon will still be below the horizon.

but ...

I've examined your argument. You are now drifting to a "not exactly solar midnight" argument, apparently conceding that my argument was correct. Solar Midnight often occurs within an hour of UTC midnight. Find out when Solar Midnight occurs and you will find that the Moon is above the horizon on that night, at that time, for that location.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 18, 2020, 11:27:46 PM
I've already shown you why it doesn't work at Solar Midnight. So did the person in the Savage Plane link. That's why you are trying to move your little orange dot is not at midnight, so it might be possible to see some slight angle behind the earth.

As you are conceding that it's not possible at Solar Midnight, the correct thing to do is to find whether is up at Solar Midnight or not. You will find that the Moon is up at Solar Midnight.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 11:33:47 PM
I've already shown you why it doesn't work at Solar Midnight.

Yet this is the first mention you've made of Solar Midnight. Why didn't you specify that's what you thought you were proving earlier? And in which post do you think you proved it?


As you are conceding that it's not possible at Solar Midnight ...

I don't think I actually said that. I think you said that.

The Mooncalc screen grab that you showed earlier, in relation to the blog. What time is shown on that?

What time was the observation? You tell us. You've read the blog
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 18, 2020, 11:53:06 PM
If it is midnight for the observer then I don't see how the observer can see something on the day side of the Earth.

1 By virtue of the fact that the Moon is approx 70 degrees through the first quarter of its cycle, so only 20 degrees away from being AT the border between day and night side;
2 By virtue of the Moon having passed an ascending node, placing it above the plane of the Earth and Sun;
3 By virtue of the axial tilt of the Earth pointing toward the Sun (but not directly at it);
4 By virtue of the observation position, already at 52 degrees North, being moved further toward the Sun by the axial tilt
5 By virtue of the fact that midnight is not exactly at the midpoint between sunset and sunrise, placing it closer to the Moon's side of the Earth

All illustrated in the 3D models labelled above. Let me know when you've examined all of them.

All that your solar midnight argument can change is No. 5, Tom - which still leaves four of them
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 19, 2020, 05:56:57 AM
Say you could see the Crescent moon from Blunham at midnight on a RE.  That would make sunrise at about 1-2am or sunset 10-11pm depending if it’s waxing or waning. 
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 19, 2020, 06:35:55 AM
The author goes to lengths to explain that it doesn't really matter.

What "doesn't really matter"?

If the Earth shrunken to half it's size, with Blunham at the edge rather than the equator, the Moon will still be below the horizon.

I see a failure of the Round Earth model to explain this. I thought you said that RE could explain all observations?

I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins  ???
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: wpeszko on February 19, 2020, 07:12:15 AM
You will find that the Moon is up at Solar Midnight.
Quite a common thing. Now what's the horizon plane for Bulham on that midnight?  Where's the Moon? Find out and draw a proper diagram.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 19, 2020, 09:16:30 AM
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins  ???

You need to consider the speed and behaviour of the Moon's shadow, not the Moon. The core point is that the Moon moves in a circle around the Earth's centre  completing that circle slower than a single Earth rotation, but the shadow does not move like this.

Think about how the shadow is cast by the Sun, and what its behaviour will be as the Moon moves in a circle.

Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 19, 2020, 11:09:41 AM
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins  ???

This was explained at great length in this thread

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14812.120

Even Tom "got" it in the end. It is a bit complicated and counter-intuitive but hopefully the diagrams and explanation will help you understand it.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 19, 2020, 11:46:36 AM
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins  ???

You need to consider the speed and behaviour of the Moon's shadow, not the Moon. The core point is that the Moon moves in a circle around the Earth's centre  completing that circle slower than a single Earth rotation, but the shadow does not move like this.

Think about how the shadow is cast by the Sun, and what its behaviour will be as the Moon moves in a circle.

Like this

(https://i.imgur.com/uLjL4J3.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 20, 2020, 05:27:16 AM
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins  ???

This was explained at great length in this thread

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14812.120

Even Tom "got" it in the end. It is a bit complicated and counter-intuitive but hopefully the diagrams and explanation will help you understand it.


I’m talking about the UMBRA.  Which means the Sun, Earth, and are in a straight line. Which should be mid-day for the observer on Earth. As the earth spins the moon and sun are going from eastbound west. There’s no way the shadow can make it all the way to the other side the world going in the opposite direction. And with only one light source a shadow cannot be smaller than what creates it.  It can be larger or even the same size. But it can never be smaller .
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: wpeszko on February 20, 2020, 09:14:47 AM
As the earth spins the moon and sun are going from eastbound west.
Are they moving at the same angular speed?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 20, 2020, 09:53:34 AM
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins  ???

This was explained at great length in this thread

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14812.120

Even Tom "got" it in the end. It is a bit complicated and counter-intuitive but hopefully the diagrams and explanation will help you understand it.


I’m talking about the UMBRA.  Which means the Sun, Earth, and are in a straight line. Which should be mid-day for the observer on Earth. As the earth spins the moon and sun are going from eastbound west. There’s no way the shadow can make it all the way to the other side the world going in the opposite direction.

That is explained in that thread.

Quote
And with only one light source a shadow cannot be smaller than what creates it.  It can be larger or even the same size. But it can never be smaller.

Incorrect, and explained quite well in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huVCQXYy4jc
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 20, 2020, 01:10:27 PM
I’m still waiting for NASA to explain why the 2017 solar eclipse started on the west coast  and 4 hours later ended on the east coast. Even though Sun and Moon rises in the East and sets in the West. The only answer I could find from NASA was that the moon travels around the earth twice as fast as the earth spins  ???

This was explained at great length in this thread

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=14812.120

Even Tom "got" it in the end. It is a bit complicated and counter-intuitive but hopefully the diagrams and explanation will help you understand it.


I’m talking about the UMBRA.  Which means the Sun, Earth, and are in a straight line. Which should be mid-day for the observer on Earth. As the earth spins the moon and sun are going from eastbound west. There’s no way the shadow can make it all the way to the other side the world going in the opposite direction.

That is explained in that thread.

Quote
And with only one light source a shadow cannot be smaller than what creates it.  It can be larger or even the same size. But it can never be smaller.

Incorrect, and explained quite well in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huVCQXYy4jc

That’s a cute demonstration. He forgot to turn the orange.  And the UMBRA happens when all 3 are lined up in a straight line and it can only happen at mid day.
Did you notice how big the shadow was!!!
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 20, 2020, 01:13:44 PM
The video you just showed would have the moon rising in the west and setting in the east. Do you have a video that the moon would rise in the east and set in the west while the shadow goes from west to east.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 20, 2020, 01:26:44 PM
The video you just showed would have the moon rising in the west and setting in the east. Do you have a video that the moon would rise in the east and set in the west while the shadow goes from west to east.
That is explained in the thread I linked to above.
And yes, I did notice that the shadow - the umbra - was smaller than the orange. And the "to scale" model at the end shows how small the umbra is compared to the penumbra.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 20, 2020, 03:29:23 PM
The video you just showed would have the moon rising in the west and setting in the east. Do you have a video that the moon would rise in the east and set in the west while the shadow goes from west to east.

See my diagram above.

All the speeds and other figures are discussed at length in the other thread referred to above.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 20, 2020, 04:11:23 PM
The video you just showed would have the moon rising in the west and setting in the east. Do you have a video that the moon would rise in the east and set in the west while the shadow goes from west to east.
That is explained in the thread I linked to above.
And yes, I did notice that the shadow - the umbra - was smaller than the orange. And the "to scale" model at the end shows how small the umbra is compared to the penumbra.

To have a UMBRA the moon, sun, and earth have to be in a straight line. That means it would have to be mid-day.  On a RE that’s the only way possible. The movement of the shadow is because of the Earths spin.  Not because the moon is traveling.  If I’m on earth looking east it takes Earth 6 hours to turn 90 degrees to the north. If the moon is east of earth it takes 7 days to get to the same north of earth. So the earth spins 28x’s faster than that is what the moon is going around earth.  Not speed wise but going from north to west to south to east.
And go outside at mid-day on a sunny day and put your hand a foot above the ground and see how many shadows you have and if the shadow is 30x’s smaller than your hand. Like on a eclipse. Give you a hint. It’s not.  You will have 1 shadow the same tint and it will be bigger than your hand.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 20, 2020, 04:19:48 PM
Also try to make a shadow with 2 light sources. That’s what the eclipse they show us looks like. 2 layers of shadow just like the videos.  Now turn one light off and then you have what a eclipse is suppose to look like on a RE.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 20, 2020, 08:27:42 PM
The video you just showed would have the moon rising in the west and setting in the east. Do you have a video that the moon would rise in the east and set in the west while the shadow goes from west to east.
That is explained in the thread I linked to above.
And yes, I did notice that the shadow - the umbra - was smaller than the orange. And the "to scale" model at the end shows how small the umbra is compared to the penumbra.

 The movement of the shadow is because of the Earths spin.  Not because the moon is traveling.  If I’m on earth looking east it takes Earth 6 hours to turn 90 degrees to the north. If the moon is east of earth it takes 7 days to get to the same north of earth. So the earth spins 28x’s faster than that is what the moon is going around earth.  Not speed wise ....

Post #94 again, please. You're focusing the Moon's behaviour, not the shadow's. The shadow is what causes the eclipse to be seen on Earth, so you need to focus on that ...
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 21, 2020, 03:36:40 PM
If I’m on earth looking east it takes Earth 6 hours to turn 90 degrees to the north. If the moon is east of earth it takes 7 days to get to the same north of earth. So the earth spins 28x’s faster than that is what the moon is going around earth.

Yes, you move from E1 to E2 in approx 6 hours, the Moon moves from M1 to M2 in 7 days, so the Moon lags behind Earth rotation, leading it to move across the observer's sky from East to West.

(https://i.imgur.com/VAXc6j4.jpg)

But that's not what the Moon's shadow does, and it's the shadow that we're concerned with

(https://i.imgur.com/yy1G5KE.jpg)

It doesn't matter how long the Moon takes to get to M2, for it is not casting a shadow on Earth at that time. The shadow is cast in a straight line to the left of this graphic, a continuation of the line between Sun and Moon. The shadow crosses a distance in space roughly equal to Earth diameter - call this distance D, moving from point D1 to D2, upward in this graphic.

Since the Moon crosses this area of space faster than any point on Earth's surface is moving, the shadow moves from West to East. The shadow is crossing this area of space at 2000mph+, with the fastest point on Earth moving at linear speed less than 1000 mph. That gives the shadow a 1000mph+ speed from West to East.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 21, 2020, 04:36:24 PM
If I’m on earth looking east it takes Earth 6 hours to turn 90 degrees to the north. If the moon is east of earth it takes 7 days to get to the same north of earth. So the earth spins 28x’s faster than that is what the moon is going around earth.

Yes, you move from E1 to E2 in approx 6 hours, the Moon moves from M1 to M2 in 7 days, so the Moon lags behind Earth rotation, leading it to move across the observer's sky from East to West.

(https://i.imgur.com/VAXc6j4.jpg)

But that's not what the Moon's shadow does, and it's the shadow that we're concerned with

(https://i.imgur.com/yy1G5KE.jpg)

It doesn't matter how long the Moon takes to get to M2, for it is not casting a shadow on Earth at that time. The shadow is cast in a straight line to the left of this graphic, a continuation of the line between Sun and Moon. The shadow crosses a distance in space roughly equal to Earth diameter - call this distance D, moving from point D1 to D2, upward in this graphic.

Since the Moon crosses this area of space faster than any point on Earth's surface is moving, the shadow moves from West to East. The shadow is crossing this area of space at 2000mph+, with the fastest point on Earth moving at linear speed less than 1000 mph. That gives the shadow a 1000mph+ speed from West to East.

So your saying the moon rises in the west and sets in the east.  Because that’s what they drawing show. I want to see a Scenario where the moon rises in the east, sets in the west, all three are in a straight line and the shadow still goes west to east.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 21, 2020, 04:47:21 PM
So your saying the moon rises in the west and sets in the east.  Because that’s what they drawing show.

No, I'm not saying that;

Yes, you move from E1 to E2 in approx 6 hours, the Moon moves from M1 to M2 in 7 days, so the Moon lags behind Earth rotation, leading it to move across the observer's sky from East to West.

...and the drawings do not show that, either.

The drawings are a top-down view of the Earth/Moon system. They are not drawn from the viewpoint of the observer on Earth.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 21, 2020, 05:00:16 PM
Do you agree that with the Sun way off to the right in the graphics, that the Moon's shadow (the blue highlights) will be cast in a straight line from the Moon, outward to the left?

The combination of the sunlight line and the shadow line will essentially be a straight line through the Moon.

Agreed? 
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 21, 2020, 05:28:19 PM
The observer on Earth starts out with the Moon to his East, and that observer moves around 180 degrees in 12 hours approx.

The Moon completes around 12 degrees of its rotation each day, so in that 12 hours it will move around 6 degrees around the Earth.

In approximate terms, this is how it moves across the observer's sky from E to W; do you see how it starts in the observer's E, and ends up in his W?

(https://i.imgur.com/W3lqtEt.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 21, 2020, 08:07:30 PM
The observer on Earth starts out with the Moon to his East, and that observer moves around 180 degrees in 12 hours approx.

The Moon completes around 12 degrees of its rotation each day, so in that 12 hours it will move around 6 degrees around the Earth.

In approximate terms, this is how it moves across the observer's sky from E to W; do you see how it starts in the observer's E, and ends up in his W?

(https://i.imgur.com/W3lqtEt.jpg)

So when you draw that same diagram when there’s a full moon but on the opposite side of Earth,  the same principle should apply. And that would make the full moon go from west to east.  That is not what happens when there is a full moon. The moon still travels east to west because of the Earths spin.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: thors_evil_twin on February 21, 2020, 08:12:35 PM
No the moon always rises in the west and sets in the east, whether new, full or first or last quarter. The earth is rotating once every 24 hours, the moon is rotating the earth ~28 days.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 21, 2020, 09:00:16 PM
If I’m on earth looking east it takes Earth 6 hours to turn 90 degrees to the north. If the moon is east of earth it takes 7 days to get to the same north of earth. So the earth spins 28x’s faster than that is what the moon is going around earth.

Yes, you move from E1 to E2 in approx 6 hours, the Moon moves from M1 to M2 in 7 days, so the Moon lags behind Earth rotation, leading it to move across the observer's sky from East to West.

(https://i.imgur.com/VAXc6j4.jpg)

But that's not what the Moon's shadow does, and it's the shadow that we're concerned with

(https://i.imgur.com/yy1G5KE.jpg)

It doesn't matter how long the Moon takes to get to M2, for it is not casting a shadow on Earth at that time. The shadow is cast in a straight line to the left of this graphic, a continuation of the line between Sun and Moon. The shadow crosses a distance in space roughly equal to Earth diameter - call this distance D, moving from point D1 to D2, upward in this graphic.

Since the Moon crosses this area of space faster than any point on Earth's surface is moving, the shadow moves from West to East. The shadow is crossing this area of space at 2000mph+, with the fastest point on Earth moving at linear speed less than 1000 mph. That gives the shadow a 1000mph+ speed from West to East.

?????????????????????????????????????
In 2017 why did the UMBRA last almost 13 hours. If the moon is traveling twice as fast as the Earth spins. The moon should have made it from one side of the Earth to the other side in less than 6 hours.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: thors_evil_twin on February 21, 2020, 09:48:55 PM
What I find even more interesting is that astronomers where able to predict the length of time the moon would be in the umbra before hand so that the public could watch it and marvel at the predictive nature of sound science.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 21, 2020, 10:22:42 PM
In 2017 why did the UMBRA last almost 13 hours. If the moon is traveling twice as fast as the Earth spins. The moon should have made it from one side of the Earth to the other side in less than 6 hours.

It didn't last 13 hours.

The eclipse path of totality started in the Pacific at around 16.30 UTC, made its way across North America, and left the Atlantic shortly after 20.00. A little less than four hours.

The speed over the surface will vary since the shadow is moving at linear speed over an area of space, but the Earth's surface is moving in a semi-circle below it.

EDIT to include graphic;

(https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEmono/TSE2017/TSE2017fig/TSE2017-1.gif)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 21, 2020, 10:25:24 PM
So when you draw that same diagram when there’s a full moon but on the opposite side of Earth,  the same principle should apply. And that would make the full moon go from west to east.

No, it would not.

EDIT to include graphic;

(https://i.imgur.com/hPCx9KW.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 22, 2020, 03:03:53 AM
Maybe I was off on my times but no difference, still doesn’t have enough time. Sometimes it’s hard to catch everything especially when they go back on original stuff like 2 years ago and changes all the eclipse paths. If you go through enough of the original live network videos(over 2 years ago) of eclipses l like CBS-ABC-NBC you’ll notice it doesn’t match with NASA data shows.  Paths are usually opposite than what they show now.

The moons travels about 2250mph. It has a radius of 1000 miles.  Earth has a diameter of 8000 miles.  At least half the moon most be over Earth to have be a total eclipse. That leaves 6000 miles of Earth that the moon has to cross over unless the shadow has a half of a shadow.  Then you can add the 1000 miles but I’ve not seen that happen yet. That about 2 1/2 hours the moon has to create a shadow.
It’s rough numbers but does my math sound about right.

Before Astronomers, I think the Egyptians were also able to predict solar eclipses.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 22, 2020, 09:15:37 AM
Maybe I was off on my times but no difference, still doesn’t have enough time.

Why? Because you say so? Facts 'n' figures, please ...

Sometimes it’s hard to catch everything especially when they go back on original stuff like 2 years ago and changes all the eclipse paths. If you go through enough of the original live network videos(over 2 years ago) of eclipses l like CBS-ABC-NBC you’ll notice it doesn’t match with NASA data shows.  Paths are usually opposite than what they show now.

So you're basically abdicating on account of you don't remember it all properly, without providing evidence of these mismatches?

The moons travels about 2250mph. It has a radius of 1000 miles.  Earth has a diameter of 8000 miles.  At least half the moon most be over Earth to have be a total eclipse.

Why? Because you say so?

Also, the Moon crosses 8000 miles of space at 2250mph, but the shadow is passing over a hemisphere of Earth. The shadow speed, on the surface, will vary according to the arc of the surface being passed over.

Also, it makes no difference whether the shadow is passing over Earth or not. There will always be a full eclipse shadow passing over the region of space that we pass through, always at the same speed, it's just that Earth misses that shadow most of the time.

That leaves 6000 miles of Earth that the moon has to cross over unless the shadow has a half of a shadow.  Then you can add the 1000 miles but I’ve not seen that happen yet.

.. that you have not "seen" this is no disproof of anything

That about 2 1/2 hours the moon has to create a shadow. It’s rough numbers but does my math sound about right.


No, it does not sound right, and you don't seem to have done any real "math" ... but what's the time difference between first and last times on that graphic above .... 5pm to 8pm = how many hours?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 22, 2020, 09:26:58 AM
Do you agree, from two posts ago, that if we put the Moon on the "opposite" side of Earth, it still moves across the sky from E to W?

EDIT - Oh, and also - the Moon's shadow did not pass over a full diameter of Earth. It started in a region off the coast of Oregon and Washington, some 47 degrees North, and left off the coast of the Carolinas, at some point in the Atlantic some 10 - 15 degrees North.  So the linear distance covered was less than Earth's diameter. 

EDIT 2 -

If the moon passed an equatorial region;

(https://i.imgur.com/p4FaBZi.jpg)

The Moon's actual path;

(https://i.imgur.com/6PF8xYY.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: proponent on February 22, 2020, 03:52:33 PM
How is it possible that the moon doesn’t pass in front of any stars. I kind of understand how it works on a flat Earth. But I’m curious what’s the explanation for it on a round earth. And if it does, I’ve never seen it happen.  And I have watched the moon move across the night sky many of times.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
The reason I've heard it is simply that they fly at the same altitude, at exactly the same speed, around the center of all those world,Under the action of the wind, just like the reason for the flight of the plane. The difference between the south and the north is the periphery and the center of the world. This is what I see in the Buddhist texts. The distances A person without special abilities can carefully identify are limited, and the sense of direction is determined mainly by the solar and lunar trajectories that one would actually experience if one explored the wild.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: totallackey on February 22, 2020, 08:01:13 PM
No the moon always rises in the west and sets in the east...
This is shocking news.

When did this start happening?

Last full moon, the doggone thing rose directly in the east.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Smarts on February 22, 2020, 08:15:47 PM
The moon in fact does pass over stars. It's just that we never notice because they aren't popularlly known constalations.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 22, 2020, 10:38:51 PM
The movement of the shadow is because of the Earths spin.  Not because the moon is traveling.

It's because of both.

Quote
If I’m on earth looking east it takes Earth 6 hours to turn 90 degrees to the north. If the moon is east of earth it takes 7 days to get to the same north of earth. So the earth spins 28x’s faster than that is what the moon is going around earth.  Not speed wise but going from north to west to south to east.

You're confusing angular and linear speed, the reason for the shadow moving in the direction it does is explained in that other thread.
It's a bit counter-intuitive and takes some thought but the explanation is there.

Quote
And go outside at mid-day on a sunny day and put your hand a foot above the ground and see how many shadows you have and if the shadow is 30x’s smaller than your hand. Like on a eclipse. Give you a hint. It’s not.

No, it's not. But the moon isn't a foot away. The other video explains this. The nature of the shadow depends on the distance of the light source and the object casting the shadow.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 24, 2020, 12:49:17 AM
The moon in fact does pass over stars. It's just that we never notice because they aren't popularlly known constalations.
The moon should pass in between Earth and stars 10-100’s times a night.  But the fact is, it doesn’t. I’ve never seen it happen not one time nor have I ever talked to anyone that has seen it happen.
I think the answer is more simple than what everyone tries to make it be.  It’s something like with what proponent had said.


And this is how a shadow works when there only 1 light source and no walls to reflect light.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 24, 2020, 01:04:12 AM
I’ve never seen it happen not one time nor have I ever talked to anyone that has seen it happen.

... yet within a few minutes of stating this earlier, you were shown a couple of videos where not only did others actually see this, but they videoed it too.

Without some indication of how, when, where, and how long you observed, your statement of "I've never seen" lacks basis.

Without some indication of how many you have spoken to, your statement of "ever talked to" lacks substance.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 24, 2020, 02:02:31 AM
Without having to go get my old Android phone’s micro SD and transfer pictures to my new iPhone.  I’ll try this picture that’s available on the web from NASA.
The tots eclipse that goes through Greenland and Canada. It seems to go in one direction then turns around and starts going in the opposite direction. How is this possible.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 24, 2020, 09:58:12 AM
The tots eclipse that goes through Greenland and Canada. It seems to go in one direction then turns around and starts going in the opposite direction. How is this possible.

Take a desktop or tabletop globe, find a ball to act as a model Moon, determine the date, time etc. of the eclipse, and model it in 3D.

Then you'll find out how. Or not.



You might want to look at the first google result from a simple search of "greenland canada total eclipse changes direction", for that seems to be the one referred to (EDIT; no, it's a few years later than this one - same principle seems to apply,though);

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2021-june-10

It has visualisations for the path both on projected maps and 3D globes.

EDIT - this one is the one in Jay's graphic -   https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/solar/2044-august-23
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 24, 2020, 10:07:29 AM
And this is how a shadow works when there only 1 light source and no walls to reflect light.
I've no idea how to assess that image. It's impossible to assess the scale of the balloon and the shadow of it, and a cloud is not a flat surface which also makes it impossible to assess how the shadow will be cast onto it.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 24, 2020, 12:33:04 PM
Take a desktop or tabletop globe, find a ball to act as a model Moon, determine the date, time etc. of the eclipse, and model it in 3D.

As an added bonus, take that same globe, look at the eclipses described around the equatorial regions, and take a string, length of wool, or similar, and stretch it over the globe in the shortest path between the start and end points on your graphic. Does that line correspond to the locations under the curved path in your (projection) graphic?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 24, 2020, 07:05:10 PM
So a total eclipses shadow does go from East to West
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 24, 2020, 07:14:06 PM
So a total eclipses shadow does go from East to West

For part of this one's path, yes. But not for the 2017 one.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 24, 2020, 08:02:58 PM
Everyone does realise that the balloon shadow in the photo quoted above is the shadow of the photographer's balloon, not the one in the photo ... ?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hotair2112/albums/72057594137386413
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 24, 2020, 10:39:53 PM
Everyone does realise that the balloon shadow in the photo quoted above is the shadow of the photographer's balloon, not the one in the photo ... ?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hotair2112/albums/72057594137386413
Ha. I did not realise that! But yes, the caption of the picture makes that clear.

Good demonstration here, God along knows why he's wearing that hat though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWMRHrkA-EY
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 25, 2020, 03:17:59 AM
Everyone does realise that the balloon shadow in the photo quoted above is the shadow of the photographer's balloon, not the one in the photo ... ?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hotair2112/albums/72057594137386413
Ha. I did not realise that! But yes, the caption of the picture makes that clear.

Good demonstration here, God along knows why he's wearing that hat though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWMRHrkA-EY

In that video there is about 4 different shades of light on the white screen. He starts off with the globe close to the screen(and looks like only one shade), but not in the center. But then moves the globe up to the center of the screen where theres a different shade of light on the screen. See how bright the center is.  That’s a different light source than the rest of the screen. And it looks like it becomes distorted.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 25, 2020, 03:19:53 AM
You can easily just go outside on a sunny day around midday and stick your hand out. It will make a excellent shadow.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 25, 2020, 07:49:39 AM
You can easily just go outside on a sunny day around midday and stick your hand out. It will make a excellent shadow.

Yes, but it won't be moving across the face of the Earth like the Moon's shadow would, so it's not very instructive in this context.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 25, 2020, 09:10:13 AM
In that video there is about 4 different shades of light on the white screen. He starts off with the globe close to the screen(and looks like only one shade), but not in the center. But then moves the globe up to the center of the screen where theres a different shade of light on the screen. See how bright the center is.  That’s a different light source than the rest of the screen. And it looks like it becomes distorted.
You are literally describing what he is demonstrating.
With a point light source the shadow will always be as big if not bigger than the object casting the shadow.
With an extended light source - like the sun - if the object which the shadow is cast of is far from the surface it's casting the shadow on to then you get a small umbra (in a solar eclipse that's the total eclipse) and a larger more diffuse penumbra (partial eclipse).
The video demonstrates this.

Obviously the size of the umbra and penumbra depends on the relative distances of the light source, object and surface the shadow is cast onto..
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 25, 2020, 08:15:09 PM
In that video there is about 4 different shades of light on the white screen. He starts off with the globe close to the screen(and looks like only one shade), but not in the center. But then moves the globe up to the center of the screen where theres a different shade of light on the screen. See how bright the center is.  That’s a different light source than the rest of the screen. And it looks like it becomes distorted.
You are literally describing what he is demonstrating.
With a point light source the shadow will always be as big if not bigger than the object casting the shadow.
With an extended light source - like the sun - if the object which the shadow is cast of is far from the surface it's casting the shadow on to then you get a small umbra (in a solar eclipse that's the total eclipse) and a larger more diffuse penumbra (partial eclipse).
The video demonstrates this.

Obviously the size of the umbra and penumbra depends on the relative distances of the light source, object and surface the shadow is cast onto..

The moon is about 400 times smaller than the Sun. But is also 400 times closer than the Sun.  Which makes them about the same size if looking from Earth which creates a total eclipse. If the Sun was any bigger it could not create a total eclipse.  That being said, since the Sun is the only light source and the moon will cover the entire Sun looking from Earth, there should only be 1 shadow. Not different shadows. And it should be bigger than the size of the moon. So that means it’s he Moon has to be smaller than 70 miles.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 25, 2020, 10:17:30 PM
there should only be 1 shadow. Not different shadows.

Who says there are/were "different shadows"? Who or what are you disputing?
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 26, 2020, 03:19:16 AM
there should only be 1 shadow. Not different shadows.

Who says there are/were "different shadows"? Who or what are you disputing?
Two different shades of shadow.  Dark in the middle and lighter on the outside of the shadow. like the video. But going off that logic, I can pull a ball away from the screen until I have the 2 different shades in its shadow like the video. Then put another ball equal size closer to the screen in the same path and you would be able to see that shadow inside the other shadow because it would make the original balls shadow(which shadow has a small dark center and lighter outside)  all one dark shadow the same size as the objects size.  I don’t think it works like that. I don’t think you can have 2 objects the same size all lined up in a row with one light source and you would be able to see the furthest objects shadow.  Because the first object would absorb all its light. Light can’t pass through a opaque object like the moon. So how can light go through the moon to hit the earths surface. If it’s a opaque object like the moon, light can only be absorbed or reflected. Can’t go through the object and hit the next object that’s behind it. And that’s what your implying with the video and pictures. 
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 26, 2020, 10:17:01 AM
there should only be 1 shadow. Not different shadows.

Who says there are/were "different shadows"? Who or what are you disputing?
Two different shades of shadow.  Dark in the middle and lighter on the outside of the shadow. like the video. But going off that logic, I can pull a ball away from the screen until I have the 2 different shades in its shadow like the video. Then put another ball equal size closer to the screen in the same path and you would be able to see that shadow inside the other shadow because it would make the original balls shadow(which shadow has a small dark center and lighter outside)  all one dark shadow the same size as the objects size.  I don’t think it works like that.



It certainly doesn't, for the Earth and Moon are not the same size.



I don’t think you can have 2 objects the same size all lined up in a row with one light source and you would be able to see the furthest objects shadow. 


... but we're not examining the "furthest object's" (Earth's) shadow. We're looking at how the Moon's shadow behaves on the Earth

Because the first object would absorb all its light. Light can’t pass through a opaque object like the moon.


Yes, so observers in the right place on Earth (the path of totality) have almost all their light blocked, and see the Total Eclipse. Those North or South of this (again, considering the Great American Eclipse of 2017) saw only Partial Eclipse and less light blocked. 

So how can light go through the moon to hit the earths surface. If it’s a opaque object like the moon, light can only be absorbed or reflected. Can’t go through the object and hit the next object that’s behind it. And that’s what your implying with the video and pictures.

It's the light going around the Moon that reaches the surface. Light hitting the Moon directly is blocked, leading to an area on the surface of Earth being eclipsed.  Not interested in whether or not that light gets beyond the Earth.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on February 26, 2020, 11:11:49 PM
The moon is about 400 times smaller than the Sun. But is also 400 times closer than the Sun.  Which makes them about the same size if looking from Earth which creates a total eclipse. If the Sun was any bigger it could not create a total eclipse.

Yes 

Quote
That being said, since the Sun is the only light source and the moon will cover the entire Sun looking from Earth, there should only be 1 shadow. Not different shadows. And it should be bigger than the size of the moon. So that means it’s he Moon has to be smaller than 70 miles.

No. Because the sun is not a point light source, it emits light from all points and in all directions - obviously,that's why we can see the whole disc of it.
This is quite hard to explain and impossible to show to proper scale but I've had a go at demonstrating the concept.
In this diagram the "sun" is 10 times bigger than the "moon" and 10 times further away from the "earth". So they would appear the same size.
But you can see from the way the light rays travel that the eclipse that would form is smaller than the moon. I've shaded the area of totality.
And you can see the area of partial eclipse

(https://i.ibb.co/qB7y0Wn/Eclipse-Diagram.jpg)

Edit: I thought of another way of explaining it just as I woke up! It is because the sun is 400 times bigger and 400 times further away that the path of totality (the umbra) is so small compared with the size of the earth. And it’s why total eclipses are rare. Think about it. If you line up a large distant ball with a smaller big one in such a way that the small one exactly fits into the outline of the big one then you won’t be able to see the big one, yes? That’s like being in the path of totality. Now what happens if you move your head? Now you can see see the edge of the big ball. That’s like being in a partial eclipse.
The point is, you don’t need to move your head much. And it would be the same if you moved the smaller ball slightly. What happens if you move the smaller ball a bit further away? Now you can see the outline of the bigger ball around the smaller one - and that happens with the moon too because the moon is not a constant distance from the earth, that’s called an annular eclipse.

The point is if a distant large ball is “x” times bigger than a small one and “x” times further away then the small one can “eclipse” the big one because they are the same angular size. But only from one vantage point if anything moves then they don’t line up properly. That’s why the path of totality is small and moves across the earth as the earth spins and the moon moves.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Jay Seneca on February 27, 2020, 06:01:24 PM
The moon is about 400 times smaller than the Sun. But is also 400 times closer than the Sun.  Which makes them about the same size if looking from Earth which creates a total eclipse. If the Sun was any bigger it could not create a total eclipse.

Yes 

Quote
That being said, since the Sun is the only light source and the moon will cover the entire Sun looking from Earth, there should only be 1 shadow. Not different shadows. And it should be bigger than the size of the moon. So that means it’s he Moon has to be smaller than 70 miles.

No. Because the sun is not a point light source, it emits light from all points and in all directions - obviously,that's why we can see the whole disc of it.
This is quite hard to explain and impossible to show to proper scale but I've had a go at demonstrating the concept.
In this diagram the "sun" is 10 times bigger than the "moon" and 10 times further away from the "earth". So they would appear the same size.
But you can see from the way the light rays travel that the eclipse that would form is smaller than the moon. I've shaded the area of totality.
And you can see the area of partial eclipse

(https://i.ibb.co/qB7y0Wn/Eclipse-Diagram.jpg)

Edit: I thought of another way of explaining it just as I woke up! It is because the sun is 400 times bigger and 400 times further away that the path of totality (the umbra) is so small compared with the size of the earth. And it’s why total eclipses are rare. Think about it. If you line up a large distant ball with a smaller big one in such a way that the small one exactly fits into the outline of the big one then you won’t be able to see the big one, yes? That’s like being in the path of totality. Now what happens if you move your head? Now you can see see the edge of the big ball. That’s like being in a partial eclipse.
The point is, you don’t need to move your head much. And it would be the same if you moved the smaller ball slightly. What happens if you move the smaller ball a bit further away? Now you can see the outline of the bigger ball around the smaller one - and that happens with the moon too because the moon is not a constant distance from the earth, that’s called an annular eclipse.

The point is if a distant large ball is “x” times bigger than a small one and “x” times further away then the small one can “eclipse” the big one because they are the same angular size. But only from one vantage point if anything moves then they don’t line up properly. That’s why the path of totality is small and moves across the earth as the earth spins and the moon moves.

Think your right on the shadow size. Didn’t give it much thought and I was looking at it the wrong way.

Now can someone show me how the shadow starts off going from east to west then turns south/north and then finishes going  west to east.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: Tumeni on February 27, 2020, 06:07:19 PM
Now can someone show me how the shadow starts off going from east to west then turns south/north and then finishes going  west to east.

I could, but I suggested a method by which you could examine it yourself in Reply #126 on: February 24.

I would suggest that the combination of Earth's axial tilt, along with the passage of the Moon (EDIT - the Moon's SHADOW) over a near-polar region accounts for it.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: wpeszko on February 28, 2020, 08:34:14 AM
Now can someone show me how the shadow starts off going from east to west then turns south/north and then finishes going  west to east.

I could, but I suggested a method by which you could examine it yourself in Reply #126 on: February 24.

I would suggest that the combination of Earth's axial tilt, along with the passage of the Moon over a near-polar region accounts for it.
Like this one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse_of_June_10,_2021
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: somerled on March 01, 2020, 12:03:27 PM
The moon is about 400 times smaller than the Sun. But is also 400 times closer than the Sun.  Which makes them about the same size if looking from Earth which creates a total eclipse. If the Sun was any bigger it could not create a total eclipse.

Yes 

Quote
That being said, since the Sun is the only light source and the moon will cover the entire Sun looking from Earth, there should only be 1 shadow. Not different shadows. And it should be bigger than the size of the moon. So that means it’s he Moon has to be smaller than 70 miles.

No. Because the sun is not a point light source, it emits light from all points and in all directions - obviously,that's why we can see the whole disc of it.
This is quite hard to explain and impossible to show to proper scale but I've had a go at demonstrating the concept.
In this diagram the "sun" is 10 times bigger than the "moon" and 10 times further away from the "earth". So they would appear the same size.
But you can see from the way the light rays travel that the eclipse that would form is smaller than the moon. I've shaded the area of totality.
And you can see the area of partial eclipse

(https://i.ibb.co/qB7y0Wn/Eclipse-Diagram.jpg)

Edit: I thought of another way of explaining it just as I woke up! It is because the sun is 400 times bigger and 400 times further away that the path of totality (the umbra) is so small compared with the size of the earth. And it’s why total eclipses are rare. Think about it. If you line up a large distant ball with a smaller big one in such a way that the small one exactly fits into the outline of the big one then you won’t be able to see the big one, yes? That’s like being in the path of totality. Now what happens if you move your head? Now you can see see the edge of the big ball. That’s like being in a partial eclipse.
The point is, you don’t need to move your head much. And it would be the same if you moved the smaller ball slightly. What happens if you move the smaller ball a bit further away? Now you can see the outline of the bigger ball around the smaller one - and that happens with the moon too because the moon is not a constant distance from the earth, that’s called an annular eclipse.

The point is if a distant large ball is “x” times bigger than a small one and “x” times further away then the small one can “eclipse” the big one because they are the same angular size. But only from one vantage point if anything moves then they don’t line up properly. That’s why the path of totality is small and moves across the earth as the earth spins and the moon moves.

If only the sun propagated it's light in that silly manner the drawing of umbra and penumbra of eclipse would make sense . I mean Eratosthenes carried out his mythical experiment in the knowledge that at that huge distance between earth and sun all the rays were parallel , which logic also dictates that the moon is the same size as it's shadow .
If the sun propagated its light in that silly manner we wouldn't have polar regions .
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: stack on March 01, 2020, 07:54:39 PM
The moon is about 400 times smaller than the Sun. But is also 400 times closer than the Sun.  Which makes them about the same size if looking from Earth which creates a total eclipse. If the Sun was any bigger it could not create a total eclipse.

Yes 

Quote
That being said, since the Sun is the only light source and the moon will cover the entire Sun looking from Earth, there should only be 1 shadow. Not different shadows. And it should be bigger than the size of the moon. So that means it’s he Moon has to be smaller than 70 miles.

No. Because the sun is not a point light source, it emits light from all points and in all directions - obviously,that's why we can see the whole disc of it.
This is quite hard to explain and impossible to show to proper scale but I've had a go at demonstrating the concept.
In this diagram the "sun" is 10 times bigger than the "moon" and 10 times further away from the "earth". So they would appear the same size.
But you can see from the way the light rays travel that the eclipse that would form is smaller than the moon. I've shaded the area of totality.
And you can see the area of partial eclipse

(https://i.ibb.co/qB7y0Wn/Eclipse-Diagram.jpg)

Edit: I thought of another way of explaining it just as I woke up! It is because the sun is 400 times bigger and 400 times further away that the path of totality (the umbra) is so small compared with the size of the earth. And it’s why total eclipses are rare. Think about it. If you line up a large distant ball with a smaller big one in such a way that the small one exactly fits into the outline of the big one then you won’t be able to see the big one, yes? That’s like being in the path of totality. Now what happens if you move your head? Now you can see see the edge of the big ball. That’s like being in a partial eclipse.
The point is, you don’t need to move your head much. And it would be the same if you moved the smaller ball slightly. What happens if you move the smaller ball a bit further away? Now you can see the outline of the bigger ball around the smaller one - and that happens with the moon too because the moon is not a constant distance from the earth, that’s called an annular eclipse.

The point is if a distant large ball is “x” times bigger than a small one and “x” times further away then the small one can “eclipse” the big one because they are the same angular size. But only from one vantage point if anything moves then they don’t line up properly. That’s why the path of totality is small and moves across the earth as the earth spins and the moon moves.

If only the sun propagated it's light in that silly manner the drawing of umbra and penumbra of eclipse would make sense . I mean Eratosthenes carried out his mythical experiment in the knowledge that at that huge distance between earth and sun all the rays were parallel , which logic also dictates that the moon is the same size as it's shadow .
If the sun propagated its light in that silly manner we wouldn't have polar regions .

If I understand what you're asking, the reason why the unmbra is smaller than the moon has to do with the distances between earth, moon, and sun and their sizes. Here's a fun little experiment you can try at home that demonstrates the phenomenon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTrPvLLyr3o
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 01, 2020, 10:08:30 PM
If only the sun propagated it's light in that silly manner the drawing of umbra and penumbra of eclipse would make sense.
However silly you may find it, that is exactly how the light from the sun propagates. If you think about it, it must do. How can you see the whole disc of the sun if from every point in its surface it is emitting light in your direction.

Quote
I mean Eratosthenes carried out his mythical experiment in the knowledge that at that huge distance between earth and sun all the rays were parallel , which logic also dictates that the moon is the same size as it's shadow.

I see how that could confuse someone, but it's simply that the sun is a long, long way away. The above diagram is not even close to scale.
Here's some information about how to visualise the true distances

https://sunearthday.nasa.gov/2007/materials/solar_pizza.pdf

Quote
If the sun propagated its light in that silly manner we wouldn't have polar regions.

We would and we do because if the earth is a globe then light will hit the middle of the earth straight on but because the earth's surface curves the light hits the top and bottom at an angle - that means the same amount of energy is dispersed over a greater area, that's what makes the equatorial areas hot and the polar regions cold. And a combination of the earth's tilt with respect to the sun and orbit around it means the seasons alternate between the hemispheres.

I urge you to learn more about the heliocentric model you have rejected.
Title: Re: Moon and Stars
Post by: model 29 on March 02, 2020, 05:49:53 AM
If only the sun propagated it's light in that silly manner the drawing of umbra and penumbra of eclipse would make sense .
  It can be demonstrated with two coins, a paperclip, and sunlight.  Or, go look at shadows on a sunny day and notice that the shadows become increasingly blurred the farther one gets from the object casting it.