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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #420 on: August 06, 2020, 03:54:10 PM »
The fact is that Floyd had pre-existing ailments sufficient to cause death at the time of his arrest. Not only drugs, but severe heart disease as well. The quotes provided above show that they are calling it a stress associated homicide and that the neck restraint was "part of" it.

None of this is clean cut. What percentage did the stress endure on George Floyd that pushed him over the edge?

How were the police to know that a drug induced man had heart disease sufficient to cause death and was too critical to be restrained with an approved police prosecure?

Are the police liable if their methods cause increased stress that pushes a very sickly man "over the edge"?

All of this "they murdered him!!" nonsense is becoming weaker and weaker, and you know it.

It is suggested with the purse-snatcher heart attack analogy that they would have listed it as a homicide regardless. That homicide ruling is not the court ruling. The court case has yet to conclude.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #421 on: August 06, 2020, 04:13:37 PM »
Why would the police have a duty not to put pressure on the neck of a docile, handcuffed man who said he couldn’t breathe!?!
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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #422 on: August 06, 2020, 04:29:23 PM »
Why would the police have a duty not to put pressure on the neck of a docile, handcuffed man who said he couldn’t breathe!?!

I mean, the only reason to be a cop is to be allowed to kill people.  Everyone knows that.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #423 on: August 06, 2020, 09:16:31 PM »
Why would the police have a duty not to put pressure on the neck of a docile, handcuffed man who said he couldn’t breathe!?!

The knee was towards the back side of the neck, not blocking the wind pipe or both carotid arteries. The autopsy does not reflect asphyxial injury of the brain.

Recordnet.com - Guest view: Autopsy of George Floyd did not reveal the truth
by Dr. Bennet Omalu

Quote
An autopsy is a tool and agent of truth. It provides answers where there are questions.

But the autopsy report on the death of George Floyd didn’t ring true and did not provide answers.


The nearly nine-minute video is disturbing. It shows George Floyd prone on the roadway with his hands cuffed behind his back and Minneapolis Police Officer Derek Chauvin kneeling on Floyd’s neck.

Floyd was dying.

The human brain survives on oxygen and glucose supplied by blood that comes from the heart, primarily through the internal carotid arteries and the vertebral arteries in the neck. The jugular veins move blood back to the heart from the brain. The brain is only about 2-3% of a person’s body weight but receives more than 15% of the blood that is pumped by the heart.

Brain cells can tolerate low oxygen and blood levels for only a few seconds before suffering cellular injury. Irreversible injury and death can occur in just 3 to 5 minutes. This means that the human brain can suffer hypoxic-ischemic injury (asphyxial injury) with low levels of oxygen. Absolute lack of oxygen is not needed. And the lethal mechanism of injury in compression of the neck is not occlusion (blockage) of the airways but occlusion of the vessels of the neck. This is why a human being can still speak while he is dying from compression of the neck.

It takes only 4.4 pounds of pressure to compress and occlude the jugular veins and only 11 pounds of pressure to compress and occlude the carotid arteries. Compression of the jugular veins and/or carotid arteries alone is sufficient to cause asphyxial injury of the brain and death. In order to compress the trachea or larynx, greater than 33 pounds of pressure is needed, which is about eight times the amount of pressure needed to compress the internal jugular veins.

Compression of the neck also causes compression injury to vital nerves in the neck. When the motor, sympathetic and parasympathetic nerves in the neck undergo compression, there is a combined effect of slowing the heart and lungs, lowering the blood pressure and stopping the heart, which accentuates asphyxial injury. The higher the scale, and the longer the compression, the greater the risk of attaining irreversible asphyxial injury and dying suddenly like we have in the case of George Floyd.

It is therefore very disappointing that in the George Floyd autopsy report, there was no mention whatsoever of asphyxial injury of the brain. Instead the report states: “No life-threatening injuries identified.” I remain puzzled. The autopsy stated that the brain was “unremarkable” and “showed the expected microscopic architecture, without hypoxic-ischemic, reactive, neoplastic, or inflammatory changes.”

Meanwhile the brain was not saved in whole to be examined by a neuropathologist (brain expert) especially in a high-profile case like George Floyd’s.

Substantial parts of the autopsy report focused on diseases and intoxications that may have contributed to Floyd’s death. Let us think about a hypothetical forensic scenario of a 50-year-old man who suffered from end-stage cancer and was expected to die within six months. One day as he was stepping out of his house, intoxicated with opioid drugs, an intruder shot him in the head and killed him. The security camera in front of his house recorded the shooting. His obvious cause of death would be a gunshot wound of the head. The fact that he suffered from terminal cancer and was intoxicated with drugs would not make any difference and would not contribute to his death.

Why did Floyd’s autopsy have a substantial focus on the diseases and intoxications from which he may have suffered? An autopsy should have provided answers. Ironically, this one instead has provided more questions than answers.

Bennet Omalu is a pathologist and former chief medical examiner for San Joaquin County.

See the bolded in the above.

This pathologist who saw the officer on George Floyd's neck on TV is so confused that the autopsy did not reveal asphyxial injury of the brain.

It is "very disappointing" that the autopsy does not reflect the narrative.

Indeed, the autopsy does not list any life threatening injuries to the neck or brain. Read it for yourself:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200604004807/https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hennepinus/residents/public-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf

Quote
III. No life-threatening injuries identified
A. No facial, oral mucosal, or conjunctival petechiae
B. No injuries of anterior muscles of neck or laryngeal
structures
C. No scalp soft tissue, skull, or brain injuries
D. No chest wall soft tissue injuries, rib fractures (other
than a single rib fracture from CPR), vertebral column
injuries, or visceral injuries
E. Incision and subcutaneous dissection of posterior and
lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, and buttocks
negative for occult trauma

...

INTERNAL EXAMINATION:

HEAD: The soft tissues of the scalp are free of injury. The
calvarium is intact, as is the dura mater beneath it. Clear
cerebrospinal fluid surrounds the 1380 g brain, which has
unremarkable gyri and sulci. Coronal sections demonstrate sharp
demarcation between white and gray matter, without hemorrhage or
contusive injury. The ventricles are of normal size. The basal
ganglia, brainstem, cerebellum, and arterial systems are free of
injury or other abnormalities. There are no skull fractures.
The atlanto-occipital joint is stable.

NECK: Layer by layer dissection of the anterior strap muscles of
the neck discloses no areas of contusion or hemorrhage within
the musculature. The thyroid cartilage and hyoid bone are
intact. The larynx is lined by intact mucosa. The thyroid is
symmetric and red-brown, without cystic or nodular change. The
tongue is free of bite marks, hemorrhage, or other injuries.
The cervical spinal column is palpably stable and free of
hemorrhage.

...

MICROSCOPIC EXAMINATION

BRAIN (10-12): Sections of hippocampus, cerebellum, cerebral cortex, and midbrain show the expected microscopic architecture, without hypoxicischemic, reactive, neoplastic, or inflammatory changes.

...

SPECIAL PROCEDURES:

An incision from the back of the head to the lower back,
extending onto both buttocks, is dissected subcutaneously to the
lateral aspects of the neck, the shoulders, and flanks. No
areas of subcutaneous hemorrhage, soft tissue contusion, or
other occult injury are found in the posterior neck, right and
left lateral neck, shoulders, back, flanks, or buttocks.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2020, 08:22:55 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #424 on: August 07, 2020, 02:20:00 AM »
An interesting find, Floyd had tested positive for the novel coronavirus.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus

Are we going to blame cause of death on COVID too?


The following article seems to be a bit bias, but it also counters the point Tom is trying to make, which (biases aside) is still evidence that there are multiple sides to this story. It doesn't seem all that impossible that an organization (or even a mortuary) would lean toward a specific narrative in order to avoid backlash from public pressures. It happens all the time in politics - and this is a VERY political topic.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/

"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #425 on: August 07, 2020, 02:27:44 AM »
"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."

When you watch wrestling do you scream "Stop, you're hurting him!!!" too?

It certainly is possible that the police are appropriately trained to apprehend and detain subjects, like those wrestlers are trained to wrestle each other.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #426 on: August 07, 2020, 08:44:42 AM »
"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."

When you watch wrestling do you scream "Stop, you're hurting him!!!" too?

It certainly is possible that the police are appropriately trained to apprehend and detain subjects, like those wrestlers are trained to wrestle each other.

No, for the same reason I don't jump when the bogeyman emerges in the horror film. I know what is staged and what is not. There's nothing to suggest Floyd's death was staged. 

The police may well be trained, but the core of this thread is "are they out of control?".

There are over 800 examples collected by one attorney which show this. There are numerous other examples outwith this. There are specific instances where mayor/governor of a city or state has said "DO NOT USE (selected police training tactic/equipment)", but the police have then ignored the directive, in some cases explicitly stating on social media that they are not going to obey.

Defying their chain of command.
Disobeying their commanders.
Out of control. 
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #427 on: August 07, 2020, 02:09:07 PM »
"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."

When you watch wrestling do you scream "Stop, you're hurting him!!!" too?

It certainly is possible that the police are appropriately trained to apprehend and detain subjects, like those wrestlers are trained to wrestle each other.

And yet Floyd was unnecessarily restrained and despite protests that he could not breathe there was no effort made to check on his health until the paramedic arrived. Imagine restraining a corpse and thinking “another text book arrest”.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #428 on: August 07, 2020, 02:55:53 PM »
"...millions of people who had seen nine agonizing minutes of murder were told by an autopsy report that they hadn’t."

When you watch wrestling do you scream "Stop, you're hurting him!!!" too?

It certainly is possible that the police are appropriately trained to apprehend and detain subjects, like those wrestlers are trained to wrestle each other.

If one wrestler begins choking and obviously can't breathe, do you think the match would continue as the wrestler goes limp and passes out?

There is also a stark difference between two trained wrestlers who have an agreed upon contract for what is going to happen, and a police officer pinning someone with dire health conditions against their will.
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #429 on: August 09, 2020, 07:13:12 PM »
...yet more out-of-control-ness;

Dallas officer shoots female protester three times at point-blank range with pepper-ball gun....

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investigations/2020/08/09/i-felt-like-my-chest-was-on-fire-photo-shows-cop-blasting-a-peaceful-protester-with-a-pepper-ball-gun-at-close-range/
 
The officer has faced a departmental investigation almost annually, over his 20+ years of service (19 investigations), and almost one-quarter of these investigations have resulted in disciplinary action for him.

In what other profession would this level of investigation and disciplinary action be tolerated, with the person under investigation still retaining their job?

I worked for my main employer for 27 years, and wasn't investigated for misconduct even once. If I had been subject to investigation almost once per year, I seriously doubt I would have remained in employment for that length of time.... why do American police get away with this?
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #430 on: August 22, 2020, 08:03:58 AM »
Detroit officer and his K-9 both out of control.

Officer and K-9 walk along sidewalk outside private dog-owner's home, separated from sidewalk by chain-link fence.

Home-owner's dog barks at K-9 and officer, officer loses control of K-9, the two dogs snarl at each other at or close to the fence, officer shoots the home-owner's dog. All captured on surveillance video. Will hit the mainstream news soon, circulating on twitter at the moment. Will try to link to video and include here.

As someone says in the thread comments on twitter, it seems to be getting to the point where the police consider they have carte blanche to shoot at anything or anyone that impedes their progress, even to the slightest, insignificant degree.   
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #431 on: August 22, 2020, 12:03:10 PM »
Detroit officer and his K-9 both out of control.

Officer and K-9 walk along sidewalk outside private dog-owner's home, separated from sidewalk by chain-link fence.

Home-owner's dog barks at K-9 and officer, officer loses control of K-9, the two dogs snarl at each other at or close to the fence, officer shoots the home-owner's dog. All captured on surveillance video. Will hit the mainstream news soon, circulating on twitter at the moment. Will try to link to video and include here.

As someone says in the thread comments on twitter, it seems to be getting to the point where the police consider they have carte blanche to shoot at anything or anyone that impedes their progress, even to the slightest, insignificant degree.   
I saw that, whats disturbing is how fast the officer decided to shoot the dog... Not pull his dog away harder, not shoot a warning shot to maybe scare it away, not shoot his own k9 for the equally bad behaviour but no, shoot the dog in a secure back garden for his own negligence. There is no defending this officers behaviour. You would have to be a straight up psychopath to consider that a first option before even breaking a sweat. The officer should be arrested.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #432 on: August 22, 2020, 02:46:36 PM »
It’s kinda strange that the K-9 unit isn’t docile while on leash too.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #433 on: August 23, 2020, 10:59:27 AM »
"Last year, Detroit paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to settle lawsuits brought by dog owners who say cops shot their pets dead "

Detroit Police Commander Darin Szilagyi said it was the owner's responsibility to keep the dog away from the K9.

"Keep your dogs in the backyards and this won’t be an issue." he said.

... but it WAS in the owner's back yard. And the owners had a fence separating the yard from the footpath.

And why did the K-9 handler allow her dog to get so close to the fence? Couldn't she control it?

Or ... are the police out of control? 
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #434 on: August 24, 2020, 03:11:32 PM »
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

Totally out of control.

Thankfully, victim is still alive, but obviously in a serious state in hospital. According to one report, he was leaving the scene having broken up a fight between two women.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 03:14:22 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #435 on: August 24, 2020, 04:29:08 PM »
Or ... are the police out of control?
Totally out of control.
Detroit officer and his K-9 both out of control.
You know, you've already made your opinion clear in the thread title. You really don't have to include it in every single post you make.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #436 on: August 24, 2020, 07:57:05 PM »
Or ... are the police out of control?
Totally out of control.
Detroit officer and his K-9 both out of control.
You know, you've already made your opinion clear in the thread title. You really don't have to include it in every single post you make.
I dunno man he seems on the fence to me.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #437 on: August 26, 2020, 09:13:12 AM »
Lafayette, Louisiana - half a dozen, at least, officers shoot a coloured man apparently holding a knife, in the back - a man who was walking away from them. Apparently they followed him for half a mile ...

Half a dozen of them, and they cannot A- catch up with him, and B- disarm him without killing him outright with a reported ELEVEN rounds in the back?

There seems to be plenty of extra police when it comes to taking down unarmed protesters. There's plenty of video of single protesters being dogpiled by half a dozen officers at a time. But not here? I really don't see the difficulty. He's walking away, they have more numbers, just run at him from behind and overpower him with a few officers. Can't American police run?
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #438 on: August 26, 2020, 04:41:09 PM »
Cops admit vandalizing cars of man who filed complaint against them, prosecutor says

Quote
“Spiteful retaliation from law enforcement officers towards a citizen for any reason is an unacceptable option. This is in no way condoned at any level, for any reason,” Gramiccioni said in the statement. “All members of the law enforcement community must maintain the public’s trust by conducting themselves at the highest level of integrity and decency.”

Authorities say the men wore disguises when they rode their bikes to the vehicles in Ocean Grove and Asbury Park, smashed out the windows and slashed all the tires on Sept. 3 between 3 and 4 a.m.

The vehicles belonged to Ernest G. Mignoli, an outspoken Asbury Park resident critical of the city’s police department. Mignoli, 70, had filed an administrative complaint against both officers several days before the incidents. His “jaw dropped” when he learned that the people responsible for damaging his white Jeep Liberty and Toyota Prius were police officers, he said in an interview with NJ Advance Media last year.

https://www.nj.com/monmouth/2020/08/cops-admit-vandalizing-cars-of-man-who-filed-complaint-against-them-prosecutor-says.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #439 on: August 27, 2020, 12:38:55 AM »
Cops admit vandalizing cars of man who filed complaint against them, prosecutor says

Quote
“Spiteful retaliation from law enforcement officers towards a citizen for any reason is an unacceptable option. This is in no way condoned at any level, for any reason,” Gramiccioni said in the statement. “All members of the law enforcement community must maintain the public’s trust by conducting themselves at the highest level of integrity and decency.”

Authorities say the men wore disguises when they rode their bikes to the vehicles in Ocean Grove and Asbury Park, smashed out the windows and slashed all the tires on Sept. 3 between 3 and 4 a.m.

The vehicles belonged to Ernest G. Mignoli, an outspoken Asbury Park resident critical of the city’s police department. Mignoli, 70, had filed an administrative complaint against both officers several days before the incidents. His “jaw dropped” when he learned that the people responsible for damaging his white Jeep Liberty and Toyota Prius were police officers, he said in an interview with NJ Advance Media last year.

https://www.nj.com/monmouth/2020/08/cops-admit-vandalizing-cars-of-man-who-filed-complaint-against-them-prosecutor-says.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

September 3rd? Did they mean August 3rd?
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein