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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #440 on: August 27, 2020, 08:20:31 AM »
Sep 3, 2019.

Yes, it HAS taken that long for the story to reach social and mainstream media. I see that reports of the accusation against them were published last year.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #441 on: August 27, 2020, 08:30:38 AM »
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #442 on: August 27, 2020, 12:25:31 PM »
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?


Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #443 on: August 27, 2020, 12:31:14 PM »
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?
The theme of this whole thread is that police seem to like stopping people who arent even breaking the law. And I would imagine the people who got shot were probably trying to stop him from shooting them..
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #444 on: August 27, 2020, 12:43:14 PM »
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?
The theme of this whole thread is that police seem to like stopping people who arent even breaking the law. And I would imagine the people who got shot were probably trying to stop him from shooting them..
Actually, the several instances brought up in this thread of police stopping people seem to be people who deserved to be stopped. George Floyd, seems he couldn't breath well before he was placed in the car. This latest guy in Kenosha had an active felony warrant for violence and was resisting police commands and trying to fight the police. How were these people trying to stop the guy from shooting them?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #445 on: August 27, 2020, 02:39:11 PM »
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?

Multiple bystanders shouted to police "he just shot someone"

That seems reasonable grounds to detain him, since he is open-carrying some kind of rifle. That would suggest to any reasonable officer that he had broke the law...

Some of the people who got shot were apparently trying to disarm him after the first person got shot.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #446 on: August 27, 2020, 03:21:04 PM »
Why should the police do something to stop a person who is not breaking any law and what were the people who got shot trying to stop him from doing?

Multiple bystanders shouted to police "he just shot someone"

That seems reasonable grounds to detain him, since he is open-carrying some kind of rifle. That would suggest to any reasonable officer that he had broke the law...

Some of the people who got shot were apparently trying to disarm him after the first person got shot.

You assume the police didn't want protestors to be shot.  My guess is they waited until they had to stop him or lose their job.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #447 on: August 27, 2020, 11:41:02 PM »
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....

Videos from multiple angles show that he was being attacked by "protesters" and only shot the ones attempting to chase him down. Every video shows him attempting to flee long before actually shooting anyone, so it's a pretty clear cut case of self-defense. He attempted to flee and people chased him anyway, then he shot them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, don't chase a man carrying a rifle when he's trying to run off.

It's amazing how many people didn't watch the videos from three different angles of this entire ordeal. Trying to stream everything to social media ended up backfiring and just filming a man trying to run away and then people getting shot in the face as they deserved.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #448 on: August 27, 2020, 11:53:40 PM »
Self defense laws permit homicide in that case?
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #449 on: August 27, 2020, 11:59:05 PM »
Self defense laws permit homicide in that case?

Self defense laws typically require you exhaust other options (attempting to flee) and respond with reasonable force. Someone chasing after you after you've attempted to flee is a sure sign of aggression and you can't let them get near you, as that could result in harm. I think shooting a man actively trying to chase me down is a completely valid response. Whether or not a court agrees will be decided a year or more from now when everyone has forgotten this even happened.

Had the man not decided to shoot, we could be reading a headline about someone strangled to death rather than about people being shot. Or, possibly, we wouldn't hear about the incident at all. It's easy for another person to end your life in close range. I think it's hard to expect this man to see another man chasing after him and think "ah well I hope he doesn't kill me" and refuse to shoot him.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 12:03:02 AM by Rushy »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #450 on: August 28, 2020, 08:18:15 AM »
Kenosha, WI

White police officer grabs unarmed black man by the shirt, and shoots him SEVEN times IN THE BACK while holding onto him, and with the victim's children in the adjacent car.

A few days later, a white 17-year old is permitted to mingle with protesters, open-carrying some sort of rifle, and police do nothing to stop him. He manages to shoot two or three people, some of whom are trying to stop him, others who identify him to the police as having shot people, yet the police let him go and he crosses the state line to go home to Illinois, before later being arrested....

Videos from multiple angles show that he was being attacked by "protesters" and only shot the ones attempting to chase him down. Every video shows him attempting to flee long before actually shooting anyone, so it's a pretty clear cut case of self-defense. He attempted to flee and people chased him anyway, then he shot them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, don't chase a man carrying a rifle when he's trying to run off.

It's amazing how many people didn't watch the videos from three different angles of this entire ordeal. Trying to stream everything to social media ended up backfiring and just filming a man trying to run away and then people getting shot in the face as they deserved.

Yes.  He was being chased after killing someone.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #451 on: August 28, 2020, 08:55:28 AM »
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, don't chase a man carrying a rifle when he's trying to run off.

... before events even got that far;

Don't travel to a neighbouring state in an attempt to police activities over which you have no jurisdiction.

Don't take a weapon into a crowded scene in an attempt to give you authority over people who significantly outnumber you.

Any reasonable adult would conclude that his actions in this regard were reckless and provocative. He wasn't casually open-carrying, he took his weapon to the scene with intent. He could have gone there without it, but did not. (EDIT He could have taken a shield, goggles, other protective gear with which to defend himself, but he did not. He took an offensive weapon, and not much else. Further EDIT - it's a stretch to claim self-defence when you are the one with the offensive weapon, taking up a combative stance toward those who are unarmed...)

The reason he was running from protesters is either the protesters' response to his first shooting, or protesters not wanting to die from his recklessness, and seeking to disarm him.

Of course, events would not have got to this if the country had significant gun control laws ...

Also, the discussion would be moot if the officer involved with Jacob Blake had not shot him in the back seven times. All his fault. If only we could dock his wages and pension to pay for all the damage ....

EDIT - in a cruel twist of fate, it's reported that one of those killed by the armed 17-year old was a friend of Jacob Blake's ...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 10:05:07 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #452 on: August 28, 2020, 11:00:36 AM »
Had the man not decided to shoot, we could be reading a headline about someone strangled to death rather than about people being shot.
No, we'd still be hearing about people being shot. The people who chased him had handguns, and fired "warning shots" before he returned fire.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-53934109

Of course, Tumeni was too busy tumbling about and fabricating outrage to check the basic facts of this case - as evidenced by his claim that his pursuers were unarmed. :)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 11:07:54 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #453 on: August 28, 2020, 01:39:35 PM »
No, we'd still be hearing about people being shot. The people who chased him had handguns, and fired "warning shots" before he returned fire.

None of which would have happened had he remained home. We know he was not resident in the state in which the protests took place.
None of which would have happened had he not taken his (illegally-carried) firearm to the protest.
None of which would have happened had he not acted as a self-appointed policeman. Nobody in any position of authority conferred any authority upon him to act as such. 
None of which would have happened if he had acted WITHIN THE LAW with regard to possession and carry of the firearm he used. From the article you quoted; "Under federal - as well as Illinois and Wisconsin state laws - no person under the age of 18 is allowed to own or open carry a gun.". He is 17 years old, and if the reports are correct, HIS MOTHER drove him to and from the protest, thereby making herself an accessory to both the offence of carrying the weapon, and to the murder of his victims. 
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #454 on: August 28, 2020, 02:03:22 PM »
All sides are in the wrong. He never should have gone. He never should have been chased by a handgun wielding mob.
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #455 on: August 28, 2020, 06:47:34 PM »
All sides are in the wrong. He never should have gone. He never should have been chased by a handgun wielding mob.

Bringing a gun to any of these protests is just plain idiotic, and unequivocally foolish - the lack of cognition demonstrated by this country is really astonishing. You can't go into a setting like that yielding a weapon, and not expect something bad to happen.
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #456 on: August 28, 2020, 06:58:13 PM »
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #457 on: August 28, 2020, 07:54:54 PM »
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #458 on: August 28, 2020, 08:21:49 PM »
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.

He was 17 and probably in way over his head. What the fuck was his mother doing driving him there? Why did he have access to a firearm? I can easily imagine a scenario where basically a child had delusions of grandeur and has no fucked their life for good. I feel for him. I feel for all the people who were shot by him too.
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #459 on: August 28, 2020, 08:33:27 PM »
Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.
He was the victim of an attack, it just so happens that he managed to fend his attackers off. He was also blatantly a victim of ridiculously poor upbringing.

Yes, it's a shame that he ended up killing some people, and it absolutely shouldn't have come to it - but it changes nothing about the fact that he was attacked.
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