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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #460 on: August 28, 2020, 09:06:58 PM »
Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.
He was the victim of an attack, it just so happens that he managed to fend his attackers off. He was also blatantly a victim of ridiculously poor upbringing.

Yes, it's a shame that he ended up killing some people, and it absolutely shouldn't have come to it - but it changes nothing about the fact that he was attacked.

Wasn't he attacked AFTER he shot and killed someone?  What I read he shot someone (for some reason, I didn't see motive).  He paniced and ran.  Some armed citizens chased after him, he shot at them, hitting two before fleeing across state lines.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #461 on: August 28, 2020, 09:29:02 PM »
Not sure you can call the guy who actually killed someone a victim.
He was the victim of an attack, it just so happens that he managed to fend his attackers off. He was also blatantly a victim of ridiculously poor upbringing.

Yes, it's a shame that he ended up killing some people, and it absolutely shouldn't have come to it - but it changes nothing about the fact that he was attacked.

Wasn't he attacked AFTER he shot and killed someone?  What I read he shot someone (for some reason, I didn't see motive).  He paniced and ran.  Some armed citizens chased after him, he shot at them, hitting two before fleeing across state lines.

He shot someone chasing him down. After that, two more people began chasing after him, one assaulted him with a skateboard and the other pulled a handgun on him, both were shot as well. All in all, the 17 year old was attacked by three people and all three were shot by the 17 year old after attacking him. The 17 year old also tried to flee multiple times before firing, making it a pretty clear case of self defense. Had he stood his ground and not attempted to flee repeatedly, he'd probably be looking at a life sentence, but being on video trying to run away from all three attackers makes his case for self defense much more solid.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 09:31:16 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #462 on: August 28, 2020, 09:44:30 PM »
You kept repeating “The 17 year old”. Do you think that’s relevant to the acts of the people who chased him?
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #463 on: August 28, 2020, 10:56:14 PM »
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an illegally-held, offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim".
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #464 on: August 28, 2020, 11:12:28 PM »
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an illegally-held, offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim".

So you think the crowd knew he was underage? If they didn’t then, in their view there was no illegally held weapon and they harassed him because they weren’t comfortable with the situation despite, on their view, no law being broken.

Regardless, it seems he may not have initiated the conflict and that self defense is a plausible conclusion.
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #465 on: August 29, 2020, 03:38:22 AM »
This is a really good analysis of the Kyle Rittenhouse story posted today by a lawyer.

Based on this, I'd say the 17 yr old kid acted in self-defense, and was far more responsible than those who attacked him. It's a shame they were shot and died. They shouldn't have been the aggressors that they were: 




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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #466 on: August 29, 2020, 08:18:34 AM »
None of which would have happened had he remained home.
In civilised society, we call this "victim blaming".

In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an illegally-held, offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim".

So you think the crowd knew he was underage? If they didn’t then, in their view there was no illegally held weapon and they harassed him because they weren’t comfortable with the situation despite, on their view, no law being broken.

Regardless, it seems he may not have initiated the conflict and that self defense is a plausible conclusion.

I think the point stands without that

"In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim"."

Especially when that person is unappointed to any position of authority, and is not of the local community.

You don't get to breeze in and brandish your firearm at the citizenry, then claim victimhood if the (largely unarmed) citizenry take you as the threat. He was not casually open-carrying his firearm, in a non-confrontational situation, he took it there with intent, to a situation he was untrained for and not appointed to.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #467 on: August 29, 2020, 08:41:55 AM »
This is a really good analysis of the Kyle Rittenhouse story posted today by a lawyer.

Based on this, I'd say the 17 yr old kid acted in self-defense, and was far more responsible than those who attacked him. It's a shame they were shot and died. They shouldn't have been the aggressors that they were: 



I dunno.  I mean, if I saw some kid with a rifle, I'd assume he was gonna go Columbine on us and try to stop him.  Tho not chase him down.  I'd have shot him.  To protect lives. 

And on the OTHER side, if heard three shots, turned, saw a man with a gun over a dead man, I'd assume he was a bad guy and try to stop him.  Its the duty if a 2nd Amendment loving, gun carrying person to protect lives from agressive murderers.  Kyle looked like a god damn murderer. (Because technically he is)
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #468 on: August 29, 2020, 11:40:25 AM »
I think the point stands without that

"In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim"."

Then live in another country because as much as I agree with you, in a large part of the USA, you are dead wrong. Your hyperbole ignores of course all the other people who also had weapons and brandished them at him.

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Especially when that person is unappointed to any position of authority, and is not of the local community.

Irrelevant. Freedom of movement and association are constitutional and plenty of people, who you are not condemning, were also carrying weapons.

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You don't get to breeze in and brandish your firearm at the citizenry, then claim victimhood if the (largely unarmed) citizenry take you as the threat. He was not casually open-carrying his firearm, in a non-confrontational situation, he took it there with intent, to a situation he was untrained for and not appointed to.

It appears he was shot at first. You keep ignoring that. It’s crucial to the assessment of the situation. As a thought exercise, I encourage you to apply the same judgement and hyperbole to the people who attacked him.

I dunno.  I mean, if I saw some kid with a rifle, I'd assume he was gonna go Columbine on us and try to stop him.  Tho not chase him down.  I'd have shot him.  To protect lives. 

Killing someone you think may do something bad is murder and would be utterly indefensible as self-defense.

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And on the OTHER side, if heard three shots, turned, saw a man with a gun over a dead man, I'd assume he was a bad guy and try to stop him. 

That’s a snap judgement and I’m glad you weren’t there because it’s assessments like these that would only escalate a bad situation.

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Its the duty if a 2nd Amendment loving, gun carrying person to protect lives from agressive murderers.  Kyle looked like a god damn murderer. (Because technically he is)

Technically he isn’t a murderer because he hasn’t been convicted of murder and if he is acquitted on the grounds that it was self-defense, then he absolutely is not a murderer.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 12:24:19 PM by Rama Set »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #469 on: August 29, 2020, 12:01:24 PM »
mainly unarmed people
Hey, you're slowly getting there! Now you just need to get rid of the "mainly un", and throw in a little bit of "violent", and you might say something that resembles the actual situation you're describing. Still, a great improvement over your previous attempt!

In civilised society, we don't call someone who takes an illegally-held, offensive weapon into a large group of mainly unarmed people, and who succeeds in killing two and maiming another, the "victim".
So, in your mockery of civilisation, a victim of an attack is only a victim if they fail to defend themselves. Sheesh, I'd be scared to hear your views on how victims of other crimes should be blamed for their circumstances...

Pointing out that he carried a gun before he was attacked is really not far off from the "But what was she wearing?" line of defence. It's not a good look. You should reconsider.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 12:06:58 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline JSS

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #470 on: August 29, 2020, 12:40:18 PM »
1. He was peacefully standing there when he was violently assaulted in an unprovoked attack and defended himself.

2. He was waving a gun around in a crowd and threatening them and they tried to disarm him in fear for their life.

Right now we don't know what really happened. It's going to likely be a mix of those two, somewhere in the messy middle. He's not 100% victim or 100% hero. Until more evidence turns up, we simply don't know exactly what went on.

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #471 on: August 29, 2020, 04:00:48 PM »
This is a really good analysis of the Kyle Rittenhouse story posted today by a lawyer.

Based on this, I'd say the 17 yr old kid acted in self-defense, and was far more responsible than those who attacked him. It's a shame they were shot and died. They shouldn't have been the aggressors that they were: 


I dunno.  I mean, if I saw some kid with a rifle, I'd assume he was gonna go Columbine on us and try to stop him.  Tho not chase him down.  I'd have shot him.  To protect lives. 

And on the OTHER side, if heard three shots, turned, saw a man with a gun over a dead man, I'd assume he was a bad guy and try to stop him.  Its the duty if a 2nd Amendment loving, gun carrying person to protect lives from agressive murderers.  Kyle looked like a god damn murderer. (Because technically he is)

Well, except that after he shot Rosenbaum (and the lawyer in the video gave a pretty clear explanation that the fact that HE was running away makes him NOT the aggressor in that moment), the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?  So.....doesn't seem at all like it should have been interpreted by the mob as "going Columbine."  He doesn't run away from them until someone yells "get him."  Re-watch the video, perhaps?


 

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #472 on: August 29, 2020, 04:13:54 PM »
... the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?

He was seen with a phone to his ear. Have you heard a record of such a call, or a confirmation he actually got through to 911?

Also, having killed two, and maimed one other, if he REALLY wanted to tell the police, why did he get back in his mother's car, go home to the neighbouring state, and still not turn himself in? Why didn't he remain in the vicinity? Why didn't he/they look for a police station in the city?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #473 on: August 29, 2020, 04:49:55 PM »
... the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?

He was seen with a phone to his ear. Have you heard a record of such a call, or a confirmation he actually got through to 911?

Also, having killed two, and maimed one other, if he REALLY wanted to tell the police, why did he get back in his mother's car, go home to the neighbouring state, and still not turn himself in? Why didn't he remain in the vicinity? Why didn't he/they look for a police station in the city?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?

Ok you are making the level of rhetorical, propagandize arguments I expect from Tom now. When people are in crisis and potentially panicking they make choices that seem correct at the time but that from the safety of your keyboard aren’t wholly logical. If you aren’t willing to entertain his mindset at all then you will never buy any argument however plausible defending his actions. Plainly, your bias again him is too strong And you aren’t interested in getting away from it.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #474 on: August 29, 2020, 05:38:10 PM »
the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?
I can't say I've heard anything like that before. Do you have a source claiming he called 911?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?
The kind of monster who just went through what will most likely be the most traumatic experience of his entire life - the kind of monster who might not be thinking rationally given the circumstances.

Christ, Tumeni, you're getting more and more victim blamey with every post. This is a horrible, dehumanising take, and you're only pursuing it because you want to feel comfortable in your convictions.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2020, 05:42:28 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #475 on: August 29, 2020, 06:34:04 PM »
If he has been spending time on Reddit discussing this, I wouldn't be surprised.  Some commenters over there are saying that you can't claim self-defense if you insult someone and they attack you as a result.
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #476 on: August 29, 2020, 06:36:39 PM »
the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?
I can't say I've heard anything like that before. Do you have a source claiming he called 911?


Hmm, maybe I got that wrong. Just rewatched the middle of the video.  Starting at about 7:45 the guy says "after he shoots the guy, he stays by the guy and makes a phone call saying he just killed someone."  So, yeah, I misremembered or just assumed it was to 911.  Could have been to anyone.  I think the substance of my point still stands, though - he shot someone, but then remained there and made a phone call. Not exactly "Columbine" style. Immediately after this, someone yells to get him and he's on the run again, and once more, not the aggressor.

Frankly, I'm impressed by the kid's temperance during all of this. The lawyer in the video even specifically points out later that the kid didn't randomly shoot into the air (or a crowd) after he had fallen, but very directly at the few who were immediately attacking his person.  That's some hard core nerves of steel in my view.

Like I said in my initial post - it's a shame they were killed - but based on this lawyer's video it's very very difficult for me to think he "murdered" anyone.  He killed some men in self-defense. That's not homicide. 

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #477 on: August 29, 2020, 06:45:29 PM »
... the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?

He was seen with a phone to his ear. Have you heard a record of such a call, or a confirmation he actually got through to 911?

Also, having killed two, and maimed one other, if he REALLY wanted to tell the police, why did he get back in his mother's car, go home to the neighbouring state, and still not turn himself in? Why didn't he remain in the vicinity? Why didn't he/they look for a police station in the city?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?

Yeah, like I responded  to Pete, I assumed or misremembered.  But he did stop and make a phone call to someone.  Not the actions of a "shooter" in any relevant way.  Mass shooters and gunmen do not act as he did immediately after that altercation.  So, even a person who did NOT see Rosenbaum chase him, or even see anything at all of the situation until after Rosenbaum was already shot shouldn't immediately think "let's attack, maim, injure or kill this kid" which is what several people immediately proceeded to do. It got some of them killed. They were thinking too passionately in the moment, unfortunately for them.

There's another video of him walking, with hands raised, towards approaching police vehicles which apparently happened just after all of this. The police just go past him.  After that point, I don't know the full story, but if he simply went home, I'm not really sure what that "shows."  When he was arrested he didn't resist, did he?  He didn't go on the run, did he?  I think you're thinking waaaay too much into his actions right after an incredibly traumatic experience.  Shame on you, frankly.  I suppose you have to criticize his actions after the fact because you really really want him to be wrong in all of this?  I think the lawyer's video is pretty hard to rebut.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #478 on: August 29, 2020, 06:53:49 PM »
I dunno.  I mean, if I saw some kid with a rifle, I'd assume he was gonna go Columbine on us and try to stop him.  Tho not chase him down.  I'd have shot him.  To protect lives. 

Killing someone you think may do something bad is murder and would be utterly indefensible as self-defense.
And yet, police do it all the time and get away with it.  Even so, its one of the arguments the gun supporters use: They can protect people and stop a shooter.    And if we all found out that Kyle had posted a bunch of stuff about murdering protesters, we'd all be calling those victims heroes for trying to stop him.  This is why normal people shouldn't have guns while all out and about, acting like police with no actual training.

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And on the OTHER side, if heard three shots, turned, saw a man with a gun over a dead man, I'd assume he was a bad guy and try to stop him. 

That’s a snap judgement and I’m glad you weren’t there because it’s assessments like these that would only escalate a bad situation.
Of course it would.  Yet again, the whole 2nd Amendment guys say that this is good.  That if someone is firing off their gun at someone unarmed, they're probably a bad guy.

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Its the duty if a 2nd Amendment loving, gun carrying person to protect lives from agressive murderers.  Kyle looked like a god damn murderer. (Because technically he is)

Technically he isn’t a murderer because he hasn’t been convicted of murder and if he is acquitted on the grounds that it was self-defense, then he absolutely is not a murderer.
You are correct.  I was wrong on the defintion of Murder.  I assumed it was just any death attributed to a non-accident or negligence.


But like, Kyle probably had good intentions but thought "These people are crazy and violent so I better look like I can kill them so they don't mess with me."
And from the video, the first victim was an agressor and did ask for it.  "What are you gonna do, shoot me?"  To which Kyle probably said something like "If I have to, yeah."  But thats speculation.  Point is, Kyle probalby wouldn't have been harassed if he didn't have a big gun strapped to his shoulder.

And the other two were just responding to a shooter.  Something that, if the kid was black, the cops would have shot him dead in an instant.  And this is literally why the whole thing is happening: Because a 17 year old white kid with a gun gets cheers from cops while any unarmed black man (or even lightly armed) is gunned down or arrested.  Sometimes both. 

If we want to see racism in the police force: we can look no further than this example.





... the kid called 911 on his phone saying he shot someone, right?

He was seen with a phone to his ear. Have you heard a record of such a call, or a confirmation he actually got through to 911?

Also, having killed two, and maimed one other, if he REALLY wanted to tell the police, why did he get back in his mother's car, go home to the neighbouring state, and still not turn himself in? Why didn't he remain in the vicinity? Why didn't he/they look for a police station in the city?

What kind of monster are we dealing with here?

I'm gonna join in with Pete and Existoid here.  This kid probably called his mom because he just killed someone and paniced like crazy.  He looked brave, acted brave, but when his life was actually threatened, he ran scared.  Which is fine and normal.  And his mom was likely the first person he talked to because, lets face it, when you are in panic you don't think rationally.  So I'm not faulting him for running scared or calling whoever.  He's 17 with no real experience and just jumped into what was basically a powder keg of agression.  Arrogant and not smart.  And now his life is ruined.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #479 on: August 29, 2020, 07:19:15 PM »
All of the video evidence makes it pretty difficult to paint this kid as the instigator or as doing anything other than defending himself. He was also seen giving first aid to people earlier in the evening.

None of this is a show of support for demonstrably wrong behavior on the part of police and you trying to rationalize it in that way is a sure sign that you aren’t thinking clearly about this. It’s tragic there is injustice but that doesn’t mean you should demonize a 17 year old, especially when it seems likely his biggest offense was the misdemeanor of possessing a firearm illegally.
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