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Offline Tumeni

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Are the American police out of control?
« on: June 05, 2020, 09:37:17 PM »
https://imgur.com/gallery/qnpKl0j

Defence lawyer's Twitter thread of instances of unprovoked, almost casual brutality from the police has reached over 300 entries now.

In the instance above, elderly man pushed over by police, cracks head on concrete, and they casually walk past him like he's a piece of trash

Wheelchair-bound homeless guy in LA shot and blinded in one eye

Journalist ordered to lie face down, while waving his press credentials and pleading to be let up, a group of cops walk past, and one of them casually pepper sprays him, apparently out of spite.

Numerous cases of people blinded or injured from close-quarters hits from rubber bullets and such

Utah police rush up to clearly fragile older man WITH A WALKING STICK and jostle him along the road until he falls.

Woman is sitting on ground, face covered, apparently from effects of pepper spray, and cop walks up and casually kicks her over.

etc

etc

@greg_doucette
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 09:39:36 PM by Tumeni »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2020, 03:24:55 AM »
tbh i think a better question is: what public good do american police forces as they are currently organized actually advance? and what are the real opportunity-costs to the funding we provide them?

frankly i'm struggling to find a good answer to the former or a bad answer to the latter. i'm increasingly of the opinion that we should massively defund local police departments and reinvest those resources in community development and local social welfare. we already know what drives crime rates: poverty and population-density. period. it's well-studied, and the data are unambiguous. if you want to stop violent crimes and property crimes, then you invest in social welfare and infrastructure. i'm unaware of any established correlation between police spending and crime rates.

but gary, what about murderers and stuff?
the police — especially local police — are fucking terrible at solving homicides. if you murder someone, you are probably gonna get away with it. this is especially true if you murder someone you don't live with. the idea that homicide detectives are out there cracking stone-cold whodunits over the course of months-long investigations is a total fiction invented by pulp crime dramas. most homicides are solved by 1) dumb luck, 2) obvious evidence left at the scene, or 3) community involvement. this last bit is especially important since cops are currently so shitty at it.

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?
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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2020, 05:27:54 AM »
tbh i think a better question is: what public good do american police forces as they are currently organized actually advance? and what are the real opportunity-costs to the funding we provide them?

frankly i'm struggling to find a good answer to the former or a bad answer to the latter. i'm increasingly of the opinion that we should massively defund local police departments and reinvest those resources in community development and local social welfare. we already know what drives crime rates: poverty and population-density. period. it's well-studied, and the data are unambiguous. if you want to stop violent crimes and property crimes, then you invest in social welfare and infrastructure. i'm unaware of any established correlation between police spending and crime rates.

but gary, what about murderers and stuff?
the police — especially local police — are fucking terrible at solving homicides. if you murder someone, you are probably gonna get away with it. this is especially true if you murder someone you don't live with. the idea that homicide detectives are out there cracking stone-cold whodunits over the course of months-long investigations is a total fiction invented by pulp crime dramas. most homicides are solved by 1) dumb luck, 2) obvious evidence left at the scene, or 3) community involvement. this last bit is especially important since cops are currently so shitty at it.

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?

It's not just the physical presence that police exert on people, there is a psychological component there as well. A huge amount of people probably don't commit crimes simply because they are afraid of going to jail. If you reduce the amount of police on the streets, criminals will become bolder. I don't think your idea is very well thought out my dude.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 05:33:56 AM by Fortuna »
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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2020, 08:18:29 AM »

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?

Traffic police? Reckless driving and DUI are already all too common, I wouldn't like to imagine how it would be without cops to enforce these rules.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2020, 11:05:38 AM »

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?

Traffic police? Reckless driving and DUI are already all too common, I wouldn't like to imagine how it would be without cops to enforce these rules.

There'd be less dead drivers, less drivers getting tased and beaten by cops who are hyped-up and adrenalin-fuelled from the chase. "Refusal to stop" seems to be an excuse for summary execution, if not over-escalation.

I cite the case of the black motorist who ran a red light or stop sign, and was seen cowering on the ground, two or three armed officers pointing their guns at him, and his grandmother, walking cane in hand, trying to protect her grandson

I cite the case of the officer who, at 100mph+, attempted a PIT manoevure on a fleeing truck, again for some trivial violation, who ended up rolling the truck, killing the driver, and launching his own vehicle into the air over the verge, and giving himself severe injury.

I cite the two officers who pursued a suspect through a residential neighbourhood, one firing a rifle from the passenger seat at the moving vehicle in front, and with the driver driving one-handed, discharging his pistol THROUGH HIS OWN WINDSCREEN

etc

etc
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2020, 12:01:32 PM »

It's not just the physical presence that police exert on people, there is a psychological component there as well. A huge amount of people probably don't commit crimes simply because they are afraid of going to jail. If you reduce the amount of police on the streets, criminals will become bolder. I don't think your idea is very well thought out my dude.

I am not sure your rebuttal is very well thought out.  There isn't much evidence that criminality goes down with increased police presence, and some evidence the inverse is true.  There is plenty of evidence that reducing poverty and increasing social integration reduce criminality.  So let's expend resources on lifting people out of poverty and giving our people proper social support instead of providing an armed force that is generally not trained for the job they are thrust in to and end up being a de facto security force for the wealthy.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2020, 06:51:30 PM »
I doubt that any of the critics here have actually performed police work. The police act inappropriately at times, but if you are a police officer and must assume that everyone has a gun or knife and is ready to use it on you at moment's notice, because the people you interact with fear arrest or are otherwise unstable, you can see why they behave as they do. And here is Tumeni wondering why they aren't going out of their way to help a guy laying down on the street, whether he was pushed or not.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 09:02:26 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline crutonius

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2020, 06:51:59 PM »

but gary, what about other stuff that the police do?
lol like what?

Traffic police? Reckless driving and DUI are already all too common, I wouldn't like to imagine how it would be without cops to enforce these rules.

This.

Quite a bit of what police actually do is this.  Drunken/high morons who won't leave a 7-11.  Domestic disturbances.  Keeping the roads safe.  I would not want to see the police done away with. They do actually serve a purpose.

I would maybe like to see their responsibilities expanded in a way that somehow also serves the community.  I think it would help build a good rapport.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2020, 07:25:21 PM »
I doubt that any of the critics here have actually performed police work. The police act inappropriately at times, but if you are a police officer and must assume that everyone has a gun or knife and is ready to use it on you at moment's notice, because the people they interact with fear arrest or are otherwise unstable, you can see why they behave as they do. And here is Tumeni wondering why they aren't going out of their way to help a guy laying down on the street, whether he was pushed or not.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6crM9Xp

https://imgur.com/gallery/qnpKl0j

Shame on you if you think this is the way that the police should be acting toward their citizens, especially seniors.

Shame, shame, shame.

Makes not one bit of difference whether I've been on a police force or not.

"Inappropriate" seems to be run-of-the-mill, standard practice at the moment, which is why I started the thread

There's a curfew in New York. NYPD have been preventing the public from going home, blocking streets and entrance to subway stations, in the lead-up to curfew, then beating the public up for being out after curfew. Commuters stuck in traffic videoed three or four cops with batons beating a cyclist for no apparent reason.

Much of this is casual brutality. The cop who walks past the journalist on the ground, and without breaking step, pepper-sprays him, apparently just for the fun of it. The cop who assaults the Australian journalist, first striking him in the stomach with a shield, then punching his camera and face. No threat there, it's clear on video that all the journalist was doing was standing around, not participating.

Most recent one I've seen is the Minneapolis cops jumping on random members of the public, apparently because the cops bumped into each other on their bikes



« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 07:39:11 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 07:31:42 PM »

It's not just the physical presence that police exert on people, there is a psychological component there as well. A huge amount of people probably don't commit crimes simply because they are afraid of going to jail. If you reduce the amount of police on the streets, criminals will become bolder. I don't think your idea is very well thought out my dude.

I am not sure your rebuttal is very well thought out.  There isn't much evidence that criminality goes down with increased police presence, and some evidence the inverse is true.  There is plenty of evidence that reducing poverty and increasing social integration reduce criminality.  So let's expend resources on lifting people out of poverty and giving our people proper social support instead of providing an armed force that is generally not trained for the job they are thrust in to and end up being a de facto security force for the wealthy.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/2/13/18193661/hire-police-officers-crime-criminal-justice-reform-booker-harris
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2020, 07:54:29 PM »
I doubt that any of the critics here have actually performed police work. The police act inappropriately at times, but if you are a police officer and must assume that everyone has a gun or knife and is ready to use it on you at moment's notice, because the people they interact with fear arrest or are otherwise unstable, you can see why they behave as they do. And here is Tumeni wondering why they aren't going out of their way to help a guy laying down on the street, whether he was pushed or not.

https://imgur.com/gallery/6crM9Xp

https://imgur.com/gallery/qnpKl0j

Shame on you if you think this is the way that the police should be acting toward their citizens, especially seniors.

Shame, shame, shame.

Makes not one bit of difference whether I've been on a police force or not.

"Inappropriate" seems to be run-of-the-mill, standard practice at the moment, which is why I started the thread

There's a curfew in New York. NYPD have been preventing the public from going home, blocking streets and entrance to subway stations, in the lead-up to curfew, then beating the public up for being out after curfew. Commuters stuck in traffic videoed three or four cops with batons beating a cyclist for no apparent reason.



- They helped him up
- They apologized
- The man was inserting himself in the middle of a riot at the time - "it happened during yesterday's riots"

Looks more like you are trying to blow things out of proportion.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2020, 08:15:42 PM »
- They helped him up (They should never have knocked him down in the first place)
- They apologized (So what?)
- The man was inserting himself in the middle of a riot (You cannot be asserting he did this deliberately, can you? Do you really think he LOOKS like he wanted to be there? Looks more like he was out for a walk and it all came to him.)

Looks more like you are trying to blow things out of proportion.

Hogwash. 

The list of brutality and abuse instances is well over 300 strong now, and that's only those that have verifiable video footage. Shudder to think what else has been going on, away from the sight of the cameras.

Second one on this page https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528 - No. 111 of 320 or so....
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 08:20:46 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2020, 08:22:43 PM »
We see that you had to resort to absurd justification there; that he was out for an innocent walk when a riot suddenly formed around him, despite that we all know that they start off as shouting protests.  ::)

The things you are complaining about are random clips from people in riots, who are either committing violence, or are around people committing violence, and shouting for the death of police, assaulting and looting. You are expecting us to believe that police officers perform random acts of brutality for no reason at all!

This is an unsatisfactory argument, to claim that police are randomly violent, and is rather untenable. Your source for this is clips you find online and checked-out "as far as I can tell" logic. An unsubstative mode of argument.

Watching the videos in the last link you posted, they are of the police using non-lethal methods to subdue people, and of people complaining that they are being shot at with pepper spray balls, apparently ignorant of the fact that they are standing feet away from protestors committing violent acts. That's like going to a Hells Angels gang meeting and claiming that you weren't there to do anything illegal, so why did the police have to arrest you and toss you in jail too?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 10:21:08 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2020, 09:33:09 PM »
You are expecting us to believe that police officers perform random acts of brutality for no reason at all!

I'm telling you there's an ongoing database of them, 300+ logged so far, all with video evidence, from numerous and varied sources.

You don't need to believe me, just go take a looksee.

What else can you call it but "random acts of brutality" when a citizen has his hands up, is standing still and the cop pepper-sprays him, just because he can?

Or when the cop walks up to someone, pulls down their mask, and then pepper-sprays them at point-blank range?

It's just malicious cruelty, nothing to do with keeping the peace. They're doing it because they can

Now, to add to their battered reputation, Denver police have been firing repeatedly upon a car in which they have been advised there is a pregnant woman...

https://imgur.com/gallery/6mdFmno
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2020, 09:48:01 PM »


New York Times - the police are "out of control". So it's not just me.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/opinion/new-york-protests.html
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 09:49:38 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2020, 09:49:40 PM »
Police are what stand between us and a lawless society. Anyone who thinks we should get rid of them deserves the catastrophic results that would follow. Luckily for them, there are smarter people in control of policy. For now.

Are there bad police with bad values who abuse their power? Absolutely, and when they do they should be dealt with. (Which takes other, good police to enforce btw.)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 09:53:34 PM by Boots »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2020, 09:49:45 PM »


Police officers are randomly shot in these protests, people are shooting each other, and Tumeni is complaining that people standing near violent protestors are getting pepper sprayed too and arrested and beaten with battons.

Tumeni is suggesting that when things turn violent the police need to be very selective about who they arrest, batton, and peppers spray. The biggest eye roll. These are NON-LETHAL solutions to a VIOLENT protest.

A situation where anyone might have a gun in their pocket. And you complain about people getting some non-lethal treatment in a protest and riot that they chose to participate in. Please.

Let me know when there is a tinnamen square type massacre by police and I'll consider sympathizing with the fake tears you are attempting.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 10:29:56 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Boots

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2020, 09:52:41 PM »


New York Times - the police are "out of control". So it's not just me.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/opinion/new-york-protests.html
It's you and NY Times and MSNBC and their dwindling subscriber base.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2020, 09:56:32 PM »
Deeply Broken

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2020, 10:01:25 PM »
Quote from: Tumeni
New York Times - the police are "out of control". So it's not just me.

It does seem mostly just you here with crocodile tears. You are resorting to opinion articles by the liberal media hack column editors that police are "out of control", despite you yourself having no evidence except some clips of police performing non-lethal solutions on violent protestors and their accomplices.

Again, once you have something substantial like police randomly opening fire on a peaceful crowd, do let us know.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 10:08:02 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy