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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #400 on: August 05, 2020, 02:06:11 AM »
I don't see a police killing. Floyd is saying that he is not able to breathe long before he is pinned to the ground.

<video above>

I can see the officers are clearly frustrated with the situation. George says he wants to comply, but resists all the way saying he's claustrophobic and can't breathe. Who wouldn't want to knock him over the head with a baton right then and there?

That is their job, however, is it not? To deal with this kind of behavior, however irrational, and to do it while PROTECTING the lives of the people they encounter - that is their obligation when they took their oath. To do any less is shameful and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If you can't take it, get the fuck out. We give police officers more power than we give ordinary citizens. This is why we do it - to PROTECT! Knowing that they will be put in situations that challenges their morality, character; their very essence. We expect that in these situations they will uphold the very thing we as a country bled and died for - sovereignty and independence. Police officers and any law enforcement - military included - are expected to be held to a higher standard. Actions like those officers who dealt with George Floyd is a disgrace to this country.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 02:08:37 AM by timterroo »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #401 on: August 05, 2020, 09:11:03 AM »
I don't see a police killing. Floyd is saying that he is not able to breathe long before he is pinned to the ground.

... but he's saying that to police officers, who you agree "pinned (him) to the ground".

So if the police had never arrived on the scene, would Floyd still be alive today, or not?

Was his lack of breath due to police involvement, or not?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #402 on: August 05, 2020, 08:36:56 PM »
It is clear that Floyd is on drugs. He acts very erratic and complains of breathing distress while standing up in the open air. Autopsy report shows that he had lethal levels of fentanyl in his system.

« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 08:43:34 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #403 on: August 05, 2020, 08:39:17 PM »
It is clear that Floyd is on drugs. He acts very erratic and complains of breasting distress while standing up in the open air. Autopsy report shows that he overdosed on fentanyl.

<video from above>

Again, so right. He's on drugs, let's put em out of his misery. Why should his life matter?

Let's go full commie and kill everyone who does the illegal drugs! Cuz drugs are bad 'mkay
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #404 on: August 05, 2020, 09:00:29 PM »
Floyd may have been dying of an overdose. See this comment from reporter and author Paul Sperry:



Source

Reddit is having a crisis over the new George Floyd media:

« Last Edit: August 05, 2020, 09:05:50 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #405 on: August 05, 2020, 10:41:18 PM »
Floyd may have been dying of an overdose.

If this is true, don't you find it totally fecking scandalous that the police sat on him for almost 10 minutes and did not help him?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #406 on: August 05, 2020, 10:47:55 PM »
Floyd may have been dying of an overdose.

If this is true, don't you find it totally fecking scandalous that the police sat on him for almost 10 minutes and did not help him?

Actually, they called an ambulance for him.

https://usnewslatest.com/nyt-described-detailed-transcripts-of-george-floyds-last-moments/

    "According to the transcripts, Mr. Lane called an ambulance after Mr. Floyd started bleeding. Then, Mr. Lane transferred the ambulance call from a less serious “Code 2” to a more serious “Code 3” after Mr. Floyd repeatedly said that he could not breathe and the police discussed whether he could be under action drugs."
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #407 on: August 05, 2020, 11:21:59 PM »
yeah george floyd probably just happened to die at the exact same time as a grown man was kneeling on his neck. total coincidence.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #408 on: August 06, 2020, 01:19:53 AM »
You seem to believe that police are not trained at all in their use of force on subjects. The Floyd incident happened in Minneapolis on May 25, 2020. The Neck Restraint is, or was, a standard and approved technique by the Minneapolis PD and requires training.

From their procedure manual from a June, 2020 snapshot:

http://archive.vn/gncPE#selection-4953.0-5001.139

Quote
5-311 USE OF NECK RESTRAINTS AND CHOKE HOLDS (10/16/02) (08/17/07) (10/01/10) (04/16/12)
DEFINITIONS I.

Choke Hold: Deadly force option. Defined as applying direct pressure on a person’s trachea or airway (front of the neck), blocking or obstructing the airway (04/16/12)

Neck Restraint: Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints. The MPD authorizes two types of neck restraints: Conscious Neck Restraint and Unconscious Neck Restraint. (04/16/12)

Conscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure. (04/16/12)

Unconscious Neck Restraint: The subject is placed in a neck restraint with the intention of rendering the person unconscious by applying adequate pressure. (04/16/12)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 01:50:10 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #409 on: August 06, 2020, 02:53:35 AM »
Police do all sorts of stupid shit they are trained not to do. Where is the evidence this technique was used appropriately? The circumstances didn’t call for it since Floyd was already restrained and docile so it seems they were already operating outside their training and policies.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #410 on: August 06, 2020, 05:11:50 AM »
Where is the evidence this technique was used appropriately?
Shouldn't this be going the other way around? Shouldn't we have to prove that this technique was the actual cause of death when other (non-murderous) alternatives exist?

Of course, this question is not a hard one to answer. Two autopsies were performed (though only one of them is actually useful here), the medical examiner concluded that the cause of death was the compression applied to his neck.

The super sudden narrative-breaking revelation that he was high as a kite actually comes from the autopsy report. It's something we knew since the beginning. By the way, he was also positive for coronavirus. Maybe it was actually COVID kneeling on his neck?!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 05:48:57 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #411 on: August 06, 2020, 09:11:31 AM »
Two days ago, from Amnesty International;

Quote
"Amnesty International USA Recorded 125 Separate Incidents of Police Violence Against Protesters, Medics, Journalists and Legal Observers in 40 States and D.C. During May and June Protests

The Report Chronicles the Stories of More Than 50 People Affected by Police Violence "

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/08/usa-law-enforcement-violated-black-lives-matter-protesters-human-rights/
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #412 on: August 06, 2020, 11:37:17 AM »
Where is the evidence this technique was used appropriately?
Shouldn't this be going the other way around? Shouldn't we have to prove that this technique was the actual cause of death when other (non-murderous) alternatives exist?

Of course, this question is not a hard one to answer. Two autopsies were performed (though only one of them is actually useful here), the medical examiner concluded that the cause of death was the compression applied to his neck.

The super sudden narrative-breaking revelation that he was high as a kite actually comes from the autopsy report. It's something we knew since the beginning. By the way, he was also positive for coronavirus. Maybe it was actually COVID kneeling on his neck?!

I was addressing Tom’s implication that because they have a technique in their manual and some sort of training that it’s implausible that the technique was use improperly.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #413 on: August 06, 2020, 11:45:00 AM »
I was addressing Tom’s implication that because they have a technique in their manual and some sort of training that it’s implausible that the technique was use improperly.
Oh, I know that; but I think you're walking yourself into a trap. All that this line of discussion could lead to is countless accounts of how the police use similar techniques all the time without killing anyone. All medical evidence points towards the fact that (while there have been other factors that made Floyd's death more likely), the actual cause of death was the pressure applied to his neck, so any discussion of the technique's merits is largely out of the question.

There's a reason "Irrelevant." used to be a bit of a catchphrase around here ;)
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #414 on: August 06, 2020, 02:07:11 PM »
Actually....

Thedenverchannel.com - Medical examiner releases autopsy report on George Floyd, differs from family’s independent autopsy

"An autopsy released by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner on Wednesday showed that George Floyd officially died from a heart attack."

"The government-released autopsy differs with an autopsy conducted by the Floyd family, which states Floyd died of 'asphyxiation from sustained pressure.'"
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #415 on: August 06, 2020, 02:36:55 PM »
Actually....
dis gon' be good

"Medical examiner releases autopsy report on George Floyd, differs from family’s independent autopsy"
As I said - only one autopsy report matters. The medical examiner has to disclose everything he finds, while the private "independent" report can disclose whatever they choose to. There is no need to bring the "independent" report into this.

"An autopsy released by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner on Wednesday showed that George Floyd officially died from a heart attack."
I only just linked you to the original. You could have read it. The cause of death was "CARDIOPULMONARY ARREST COMPLICATING LAW ENFORCEMENT SUBDUAL, RESTRAINT, AND NECK COMPRESSION". Yes, he died from a cardiopulmonary arrest, but its cause is clearly stated. This is why, even according to your local news source (you could have read it), "The County Medical Examiner said on Monday that the manner of death was a homicide."
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #416 on: August 06, 2020, 03:02:28 PM »
Homicide could just be a technical ruling. See the bolded below:

www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/05/experts-george-floyds-medical-issues-dont-affect-homicide-ruling/amp/

"George Floyd had drugs in his system and severe heart disease when a Minneapolis police officer put a knee to his neck, but independent experts said the medical problems revealed in the full autopsy report don’t change the conclusion that the handcuffed man’s death was a homicide.

'He has some underlying conditions' that made it more likely he would not fare well under stress, said Dr. Gregory Davis, medical examiner for Jefferson County, Ala., and a pathology professor at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. But the circumstances of Floyd’s May 25 death are not ignored in Wednesday’s report, which said “restraint and neck compression are part of why he died,” Davis said.

Dr. Stephen Nelson, chairman of Florida’s medical examiners commission, agreed. Even if someone with severe heart disease died of a heart attack during a purse-snatching, “we’d still call it a homicide,” he said.

“Is this stress associated with his interaction with law enforcement enough to put him over the edge? Yes, it is,” Nelson said."

-

So they are calling it associated stress, and do not deny that he had other conditions. The first bolded quote from Dr. Nelson implies that they would call it a homicide regardless.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 03:07:14 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #417 on: August 06, 2020, 03:06:07 PM »
Damn, Tom, you're cycling through doctors like there's no tomorrow! It's a shame you once again forgot to read your source and provided us with more evidence against your position.

You see, your new favourite doctor would prefer if we threw your cardiac arrest story out the window entirely, because it just happens to be a technical term:

Cardiopulmonary arrest simply means his heart and breathing stopped, which happens when anyone dies.

“It’s really a meaningless term,” Nelson said. In Florida, directions printed on death certificates tell doctors not to use it and to be more precise and descriptive.

“I would use the word ‘traumatic asphyxia’ due to neck compression and restraint due to law enforcement subdual,” Nelson said. “I don’t think you can discount the video.”
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #418 on: August 06, 2020, 03:10:31 PM »
The doctor says the technical term used alone doesn't mean much of anything.

But, if we continue reading the article...

HEART DISEASE

Several of Floyd’s key heart arteries were severely narrowed — evidence of serious heart disease. Several were 75 percent blocked and one was 90 percent blocked, and that was made worse by where the clogs occurred in terms of crimping the supply of blood to his heart, Nelson said. Blockages of 70 percent or more usually cause chest pain, he added.

“That degree of narrowing is sufficient to cause death,” Davis said.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 03:13:23 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #419 on: August 06, 2020, 03:25:16 PM »
The doctor says the technical term used alone doesn't mean much of anything.
No, he doesn't, and he proposes a term he'd consider more suitable for this specific case. I already quoted it for you. You could have read it.

Tom, the problem with you quote-mining is that the rest of the article, once again, completely disagrees with you. This is why you need to read the whole thing, not just fish for sentences that you think support your position.

Nobody dismisses his underlying health conditions. Indeed, he had many health issues which could kill him any moment, but didn't. However, all of your sources thus far agree that while his overall health was a contributing factor, the cause was deemed to be homicide.

If you wanna keep doing that, meh, enjoy. But at least try to read the whole article next time. Find a source that doesn't immediately disprove your position. It's silly how much you've slipped recently.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 03:30:49 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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