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Offline Tom Bishop

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RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« on: March 20, 2020, 06:06:37 PM »
The explanation for the Moon Tilt Illusion in RE is an effect of perspective.

When viewing the Moon Tilt Illusion, the Moon will often be tilted upwards:





RE Theorists explain this as result of a perspective effect, as so:



Zoomed out:



The Moon will tilt upwards, like if standing in the middle of a long hallway, and seeing the edges of that hallway dip down when looking to the left and right:



We are standing in the middle of the hallway, and the Moon travels across the ceiling, pointing upwards or downwards in relation to our position. When it approaches us the Moon pointing upwards, and when it passes by and recedes from us, we see the Moon pointing downwards. In order to tilt upwards and downwards to perspective, or for any perspective changes, we must see different sides of the body.



As an object travels across the Hallway past us we must see different parts of it as it tilts, turns, and changes orientation to perspective. RE responds by saying that the Moon is physically tidally locked to the Earth, that the face is always pointing at us, and we are seeing perspective changes of the shadow upon the lunar surface as the Moon approaches and recedes from us.

Moon Phase Diagram

If we are seeing different sides of the light and dark part of the Moon point upwards and downwards due to perspective, the phases can be illustrated as in the below diagram.

An observer located at E1 observes the Moon traveling between points M8, M1, and M2 due to its movement over time. The Moon tilts upwards to the left of the observer at M8, at a right angle overhead at M1, and downwards to the right of the observer at M2. 



If this is true, and we are viewing different sides of the phases due to perspective changes, then it would suggest that observers at points E8 and E6 at the same moment in time should see different sides of the Full Moon (M7).

Yet, we know that all observers see a Full Moon at once. How can this be reconciled in the Round Earth theory of extreme perspective changes that is invoked to explain the Moon Tilt Illusion?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 07:00:43 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Online Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2020, 06:38:58 PM »
As an object travels across the Hallway past us we must see different parts of it as it tilts, turns, and changes orientation to perspective. RE responds by saying that the Moon is physically tidally locked to the Earth, that the face is always pointing at us, and we are seeing perspective changes of the shadow upon the lunar surface as the Moon approaches and recedes from us.

No, RE does not "respond" to your hallway analogy with anything. RE does not state that the shadow changes due to the Moon approaching or receding. The change in the extent of the shadow is entirely due to the Moon's changing position IN ITS ORBIT with respect to the observer on Earth. Any change in orientation of the shadow is entirely due to the observer's changing position, where they are "moved" by being on Earth's surface, which is moving with respect to the Moon

If we are seeing different sides of the light and dark part of the Moon point upwards and downwards due to perspective, the phases can be illustrated as in the below diagram.

The phases can be illustrated without regard to the Moon tilt illusion (EDIT - but you have to realise that the inner ring of Moons show how it looks from that viewpoint, from above, and that the outer ring shows how the Moon would appear to an idealised observer, on top of the Earth, midway between E1 and E5. Anyone anywhere else will see it differently.)

An observer located at E1 observes the Moon traveling between points M8, M1, and M2 due to its movement.

No, absolutely not. The Moon moves across the sky for the observer due to Earth's rotation.

....it would suggest that observers at points E8 and E6 at the same moment in time should see different sides of the Full Moon (M7).

Why?

Yet, we know that all observers see a Full Moon at once. How can this be reconciled in the Round Earth Theory of extreme perspective changes that is invoked to explain the Moon Tilt Illusion?

It could be reconciled by you taking a course in Astronomy (EDIT or modelling it with a desktop, educational globe). Once again, you appear unable to reconcile a 2D drawing, from a top-down viewpoint, with what happens in 3D.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 07:06:42 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2020, 08:45:24 PM »
By invoking extreme perspective effects to explain the Moon Tilt Illusion different observers would see different sides of the Moon, or different sides of the Moon's day and night.

The general RE answer to the Moon Tilt Illusion is that it's a perspective effect, like something traveling along the ceiling of a hallway.



Observer A would have a different view of the Rubix Cube positions than Observer B.

If an Oberver at E1 is viewing the Moon M8, there is a different view than the overhead view. So Observer E8 must have a different view of the Full Moon than Observers E7 and E6.




Please explain this with the RE theory of extreme perspective effects.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 08:54:31 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline stack

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2020, 08:47:21 PM »
By invoking extreme perspective effects to explain the Moon Tilt Illusion different observers would see different sides of the Moon, or different sides of the Moon's day and night.

The general RE answer to the Moon Tilt Illusion is that it's a perspective effect, like something traveling up and down the ceiling of a hallway.



Observer A would have a different view of the Rubix Cube positions than Observer B.

If an Oberver at E1 is viewing the Moon at M8, there is a different view than the overhead view. So Observer E8 must have a different view of the Moon than E7.




Please explain this with the RE theory of extreme perspective effects.

Why are you using one object (Rubik's Cube) to represent two discreet objects? The Cube on the left is the Moon. The Cube on the right is the Sun.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Online Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2020, 08:51:59 PM »
If an Observer at E1 is viewing the Moon at M8, there is a different view than the overhead view.

Yes, the observer will see the Moon as in the outside ring, IF he is aligned with the "top" of the Earth, perpendicular to the Earth-Sun plane. If he is elsewhere on Earth, this view will vary according to latitude.


So Observer E8 must have a different view of the Moon than Observers E7 and E6.

Not a valid comparison. The time between the Moon moving from M8 to M7 is approx 3.5 days, whereas an observer on Earth would move from E1 to E8 in 3 hours

Please explain this with the RE theory of extreme perspective effects.

Not until you show that you understand what you're trying to debunk

EDIT - Forget the Rubiks Cube, get a desktop educational globe, and model it in 3D
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 08:53:36 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2020, 09:37:26 PM »
The Moon tilt illusion is just that - an illusion. It happens because the Sun is much further away from us than the Moon.

You can get the exact same "tilt" on a Ping-Pong ball when the Moon is visible during the day : https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-resources/what-are-the-phases-of-the-moon/

The phases of the Moon, and its apparent movement, are perfectly explained in a round earth model. As well as the apparent movement of the rest of the night sky, which is almost identical. As well as the fact that we see different stars at different latitudes. I still have to see a flat earth model that could be compatible with what we see in the skies, let alone explain it.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 09:39:40 PM by GreatATuin »
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2020, 10:28:22 PM »
Tom; visualise the positions of Earth, Moon and Sun at three points of a Scalene Triangle



Earth and Moon are at the ends of side C, with the sun at the point where sides A and B meet, with A and B proportionally far longer than this illustration.

Can you see that the face of the Moon, aligned with side A toward the Sun, might look as though it is pointing to a different place in the sky than your view along side B, especially if you are not aligned with the plane of the triangle?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 11:31:54 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline model 29

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2020, 03:23:50 AM »
The moon 'tilt' throughout the night is due to an observer's latitude.  For example, someone at 45n will 'tilt' from moonrise to moonset 90 degrees.  A different face will not be seen since the moon is 240k miles away and Earth's diameter is only about 7.9k miles.

Or then there's the 'perspective tilt', as demonstrated with the hallway demonstrations, which as been explained to death.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2020, 08:21:38 PM »
So far I see that this issue is unable to be answered.

model 29 says that the bodies are too far away to turn to perspective. That's right. The Moon should tilt less than two degrees. Perspective changes in the RE system should be nearly nil.

model29's answer also says that things are tilted to the extreme perspective effect but we don't see different sides because it's too far away. How can there be extreme perspective changes without a changing of orientation?



At what distance do the pencils have to be from us in order for them to be tilted upwards to 45 degrees without us seeing the undersides?

One can see that this sentiment is incorrect. It is not possible to see the pencils tilt upwards without also seeing the underside. In order for something to tilt by perspective, we must see different sides of an object. Claiming that "it's too far" for perspective changes to orientation to occur, while simultaneously claiming extreme perspective effects are occurring as to cause it to be tilted, is contradictory.

This whole excuse of perspective as an explanation to this anomaly is looking more and more like baloney. There must be signs that a perspective effects is occurring, and there are not. Is there a better answer?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 08:56:32 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline model 29

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2020, 08:56:12 PM »
It seems Tom, that you forgot the moon is tidally locked so the same face always faces us. 
Again, 240k miles. 
Also again, an observer's view of the moon 'tilts' (the amount and rate depends on latitude) throughout the night.  The same can be seen of the sun if using a solar filter and sunspots are visible.  Tilt a camera to the left, take a picture of a an object, tilt the camera to the right, take a picture of the same object, and compare the images.  Do you see a different face of the object, or the same face just tilted?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2020, 09:16:29 PM »
Quote
It seems Tom, that you forgot the moon is tidally locked so the same face always faces us.

If the Moon's face is tidally locked to us then it won't tilt at any position around the observer:



So how, then, does it tilt to the observer?

The general response to this is to claim that the physical Moon is not tilting, but that it is only the Moon's day and night that tilts to perspective. This is also incorrect, for the same reasons previously discussed, since one would have to see different parts of the Moon's day and night:



The same issue occurs. The Moon Phase diagram I provided previously shows that different observers would have to be viewing different parts of the Full Moon.

So, how does this work with "extreme perspective" as the answer to this?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 09:46:36 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline model 29

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2020, 10:14:17 PM »
Given the distances of the moon as they pertain to the globe, how perspective works (why do you keep saying "extreme" perspective?), and how an observer's view orientation changes based on latitude on a rotating globe from moonrise to set, your question has been answered Tom.  All you have to do now is understand it.

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Online Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2020, 12:29:28 AM »
If the Moon's face is tidally locked to us then it won't tilt at any position around the observer:

Your diagram is a 2D representation, and takes no account of the observer being on any part of the Earth other than an idealised equatorial point, as well as not even attempting to model in 3D.

Get a globe, place a model Moon and Sun in their correct positions, and photograph the elements from the viewpoint of a real-world observer.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2020, 01:05:56 AM »
Given the distances of the moon as they pertain to the globe, how perspective works (why do you keep saying "extreme" perspective?), and how an observer's view orientation changes based on latitude on a rotating globe from moonrise to set, your question has been answered Tom.  All you have to do now is understand it.

I see that you are saying that the Moon is too far in RET for such perspective effects to occur. That's right. The theory that perspective effects are causing the Moon Tilt Illusion is wrong.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline model 29

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2020, 02:39:43 AM »
I see that you are saying that the Moon is too far in RET for such perspective effects to occur.
No, I am not.
Quote
That's right. The theory that perspective effects are causing the Moon Tilt Illusion is wrong.
No, it is not.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2020, 08:16:39 AM »
Tom, you’ve demonstrated plenty of times now that you really do not understand optics and perspective, do you think maybe you take a step back and try to think critically before exclaiming how wrong "RE people" are about this? Learn a 3d application and model a flat earth system between the sun, moon and earth and see if you can replicate reality and take screenshots showing us how accurate the flat earth is. When you fail at that, try modelling the mainstream system with the globe earth, sun and moon. I recommend blender since it’s free.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2020, 08:31:37 AM »
The general response to this is to claim that the physical Moon is not tilting, but that it is only the Moon's day and night that tilts to perspective. This is also incorrect, for the same reasons previously discussed, since one would have to see different parts of the Moon's day and night:



The same issue occurs. The Moon Phase diagram I provided previously shows that different observers would have to be viewing different parts of the Full Moon.

The only thing your previous diagram shows is that you have not understood the round Earth model. As previously mentioned, the Moon appears to move in the sky mostly because of the Earth's rotation, not of its own movement : it orbits the Earth in about 4 weeks. The orbit of the Moon around the Earth is what causes phases.

For example, let's say the Moon is in M1. E8 E1 and E2 see a full quarter, E3 and E7 see a Moon that is rising or setting. As the Earth spins, everyone will see the Moon rise and set - but they will all see a first quarter, only slightly fuller as time goes by and the Moon moves on its orbit. The Moon is far enough for everyone to see the same side, but the orientation will depend on the latitude.

A few days later, the Moon is in M8, and the same happens : everyone sees a waxing gibbous rise and set. Etc.

The so-called "tilt" is not involved to explain the phases. It's not even really a tilt : just the illusion of a tilt.

Quote
So, how does this work with "extreme perspective" as the answer to this?

It's still just perspective. And it only has to account for the angle of the terminator, not the phases. I'm not sure what "extreme" perspective is, or if it even means anything, or if the word "extreme" is just there for dramatic effect. Maybe this video was already mentioned, but I think it explains quite well what is going on. Perspective can play some tricks on our brains.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2020, 02:16:37 PM »
No, that video does not explain it.

How can the tilting seen be caused by perspective without us also seeing my different sides of an object? How can a pencil or a Rubix Cube be tilted upwards without us seeing different sides of it? This is simple geometry. In order for tilting to be caused by perspective we must see a shifting in orientation.

It is apparent that some people will be under the Moon, while others are at another angle and see it low in the sky to their left or right, and must have different perspective views. So those people must see different sides of it.

This matter is merely an attempted excuse without much thought put into it. None of what you have posted provides an explanation at all. Perspective is not a working explanation to explain this, and assumes that the Moon changes orientation.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 02:39:36 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Online Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2020, 02:52:29 PM »
It is apparent that some people will be under the Moon, while others are at another angle and see it low in the sky to their left or right, and must have different perspective views. So those people must see different sides of it.

No, no, no. You don't appreciate how far away it is, and how little the variance in observers' locations is compared to that distance.



Moon at apex, height = 240k miles
Maximum distance between observers = base of approx 8k miles

Draw it out to scale. 8mm base, 24cm height.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2020, 03:06:36 PM »
We already have the math with the actual RE distances.

I agree that things should not turn much to persoective. The Moon would actually turn negligibly to perspective in RE, less than 2 degrees.

So how can you get it to turn 45 degrees to perspective, without seeing different sides of the Moon's day and night?

How can a pencil or a Rubix Cube tilt to perspective without seeing different sides of it?

You flatly refuse to answer.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 03:10:43 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy