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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2020, 12:18:59 PM »
So, let's help Tom understand how Moon phases actually work. Maybe with this simulation: https://pbslm-contrib.s3.amazonaws.com/WGBH/buac19/buac19-int-earthsunmoon35model/index.html

An interesting experiment with this simulation: move forward 7 days and 6 hours to see a first quarter right overhead. The terminator appears to be perfectly vertical, which is what we expect. The Sun appears on the horizon, setting, which is also what we expect. Of course this is a very simplified model with no Earth tilt or latitudes, but it's enough for my point.

Does the "lit" side of the Moon point at the Sun? Absolutely.

Does it point at the horizon, where we see the sunset? No. It's not pointing downwards and has no reason to.

Is there a discrepancy? No, just the illusion of a discrepancy.
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Offline BRrollin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #41 on: April 17, 2020, 08:29:53 PM »
Is there an easier way to discuss this issue in a way everyone can understand? If there is anybody here who lives in the Southern hemisphere, we could just compare our own pictures of the moon. Wouldn't this help determine whether there is a perspective effect or not? Because if I get this flat earth idea, then we would see different pictures, from seeing different "sides" of the moon. In a round earth, we would see the same picture upside down.
“This just shows that you don't even understand the basic principle of UA...A projectile that goes up and then down again to an observer on Earth is not accelerating, it is the observer on Earth who accelerates.”

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #42 on: April 17, 2020, 09:14:45 PM »
Is there an easier way to discuss this issue in a way everyone can understand? If there is anybody here who lives in the Southern hemisphere, we could just compare our own pictures of the moon. Wouldn't this help determine whether there is a perspective effect or not? Because if I get this flat earth idea, then we would see different pictures, from seeing different "sides" of the moon. In a round earth, we would see the same picture upside down.
The word perspective has a meaning and nothing to do with how Tom uses it.

Offline BRrollin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #43 on: April 17, 2020, 09:22:44 PM »
Is there an easier way to discuss this issue in a way everyone can understand? If there is anybody here who lives in the Southern hemisphere, we could just compare our own pictures of the moon. Wouldn't this help determine whether there is a perspective effect or not? Because if I get this flat earth idea, then we would see different pictures, from seeing different "sides" of the moon. In a round earth, we would see the same picture upside down.
The word perspective has a meaning and nothing to do with how Tom uses it.

I’m just trying to help move things in useful direction. After a while, it all starts to look like arguing over things most of us don’t know.
“This just shows that you don't even understand the basic principle of UA...A projectile that goes up and then down again to an observer on Earth is not accelerating, it is the observer on Earth who accelerates.”

- Parsifal


“I hang out with sane people.”

- totallackey

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2020, 09:53:08 AM »
Is there an easier way to discuss this issue in a way everyone can understand? If there is anybody here who lives in the Southern hemisphere, we could just compare our own pictures of the moon. Wouldn't this help determine whether there is a perspective effect or not? Because if I get this flat earth idea, then we would see different pictures, from seeing different "sides" of the moon. In a round earth, we would see the same picture upside down.
The word perspective has a meaning and nothing to do with how Tom uses it.

I’m just trying to help move things in useful direction. After a while, it all starts to look like arguing over things most of us don’t know.
Need to find some people who do know.

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2020, 01:01:38 AM »
Please let me try to clarify, from the point of view of a RE person, a few questions raised in this thread. And sorry for the length of my post. Please enjoy anyway.

1. It is claimed that observers at different locations on earth should see different sides of the spherical moon depending on their respective location. That statement is correct. But if any imaginable distance on earth (like its diameter) is small in comparison to the distance moon-earth the effect is hardly noticeable to the naked eye. Diameter of earth 12,740 km, distance earth-moon 384,400 km (average) , ratio of 30. You can verify this effect by looking at a building head-on but from far away. Moving side-wise by a few feet will not reveal in any noticeable way one of the sides of the building particularly when the building is round.

2. We always see only one side of the moon, called the near-side. That is correct in very good approximation. The reason is that the moon is tidally locked which is a short way of saying that the moon rotates around its own axis exactly once during a complete orbit around earth. Pluto and its moon Charon are a more advanced example thereof. They both show each other only their respective near side.

3. During the course of the night the image of the moon including moon phase seems to rotate. "seems" is the keyword. It is actually you whose horizontal plane is changing its orientation with respect to the moon. Reason : earth is spherical in shape and rotates around an axis. You could clarify that to yourself in the following way :
On a piece of paper draw a nice circle and then add a vertical line through the center of the circle. This is a crude presentation of the spherical earth with the straight line representing earth's axis. Mark the north pole at the top. Now add the equator - a horizontal line again through the circle's center. Lastly mark three points at identical distance from the equator, one on the axis and the other two on the circle on opposite sides. One could say that these three points are at the same latitude. In this scenario your face is now going to represent the moon and to define its angular orientation we consider the line connecting your eyes. In the following I will call your, personal, left eye the moon's left eye. Now imagine an observer on your sketch of earth looking at the moon, the observer being situated at the point on the circle to the left of the axis. With the known direction of earth's rotation an observer at this point would see the moon rising with the "moon's" left eye well above the horizon in comparison to its right eye. Some 6 hours later this observer would be located at your mark on earth's axis. The "moon's" eyes appear now at equal height. The moon seems to have rotated !!! I leave it up to you to explore what our fictitious observer will see additional 6 hours later when the moon is setting.     

4. Moon-tilt Illusion. How I hate the word illusion in this discussion. If you happen to look at the moon other than at full or new moon you see the day/night terminator on the moon's surface giving rise to what we call the moon's phases. There is no illusion nor distortion nor rotation involved in the image you are seeing. None whatsoever. You also see correctly that the line connecting the two "horns" where the terminator meets moon's perimeter is inclined most of the time with respect to your vertical. Actually, if you know enough math you can derive an equation for the tilt of this line given the position of moon and sun in the sky in terms of azimuth and elevation angle.
Trouble arises when you want to draw the line the light follows when it travels from the sun to the moon. Except for a very special circumstance drawing a straight line means you commit a serious error !!! Let me continue with a statement : If we were able to see light travel from the sun to the moon the light would follow a curved path as seen from an observer on earth. This phenomena is not restricted to the sun-moon problem but very general in nature.

So let's bring it down to earth.

Imagine you are standing on a big level field - it is pitch dark and all you can see is five very small lights which are NOT moving. Because of the total darkness you don't have any depth perception. You also have no knowledge about the actual brightness of each light; one might be actually very bright but far away, the next one very dim but close by. So, you do what astronomers do when measuring the positions of objects in space, you measure azimuth and elevation angle. Here are the numbers you measured, assigning 0 deg azimuth to the far left light and 90 deg azimuth for the far right light (you will be able to verify these numbers yourself shortly) :

Light  azimuth [deg]  elevation [deg]
 1       0.00             15.00
 2      18.43             18.72
 3      45.00             20.75
 4      71.57             18.72
 5      90.00             15.00

According to these numbers, if you let your outstretched arm go smoothly from the far left to the far right light you would trace out a nice arc in the night sky reaching the highest point at the center light. 


The big surprise comes the next morning when you revisit the field to complement what you have seen the night before. You discover the following : from where you were standing you had looked at five poles with little tiny lights on top. The center post ( light # 3) is exactly 100 meters away from you. The posts are located along a line perpendicular to the line from you to the center post. The posts are equally spaced, 25 m apart and exactly of the same height as verified with a laser beam going from the right most to the left most post just grazing all five light bulbs. Of course, if you could have seen the laser light at night it would have followed the nice arc your outstretched arm followed.

With this new information, your calculator and knowledge of trigonometry you can now not only calculate the height of the posts (quite high I might add) but also verify the numbers in the above table.

Bottom line : The path of light traveling in a straight line from the far right to the far left post (the above mentioned laser) should be drawn as an arc in the night sky. Drawing now an analogy to the sun-light-moon problem : If you climb up on one of the intermediate posts you are putting yourself in the same position of earth being located between sun and moon simulating a lunar eclipse. If you move a little bit to the side or up/down so that the light can pass you by we have the situation of a full moon. Yikes, where is the sun when you look at a full moon high in the sky  ?


Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2020, 05:00:21 AM »
The problem with your model is it is using 2D to try to explain a 3D phenomenon.  You suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect where you think you know a significant amount about astronomy when you have never actually taken any formal course or discussed this with someone who has. 

There is a path in the sky that the moon and the planets traverse though called the ecliptic. They all vary somewhat above or below this by a few degrees, but they all are pretty close to following this line all year long.   If you took a picture of the moon in the sky from rise to set, it will follow that path. Depending on the time of year and your lattitude, this path will change.  If you take a picture of the moon in the sky and draw a straight line through the moon of where this pathway is (the ecliptic line) the line will point directly where the sunlight is coming from.  But since you are on a globe, it appears to have tilt. 

I have a question for you: while you are looking at the moon in the sky, try watching the ISS in the sky.  You can find predicted paths on Heavens Above.com.  Flat Earthers love to say "open your eyes" to globers, but I have not had a flat farther to date take me up on this simple task which makes me wonder if you are actually putting into practice the "open your eyes" mantra.  Pick a viewing date/time where the ISS passes through or by a familiar object in the sky, like the moon or a planet or constellation.  After you see the ISS pass by/through this object at the exact second it is predicted to do so, reply with your explanation how anything in the atmosphere would have that ability to travel through the sky with such precision such that YOU could see it do so any particular night you happened to look up in the sky?

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2020, 05:46:48 PM »
The explanation for the Moon Tilt Illusion in RE is an effect of perspective.

When viewing the Moon Tilt Illusion, the Moon will often be tilted upwards:




It isn't really an illusion. If you know where the sun is in relation to the moon, you could take a string and hold it perpendicular to the angle the moon appears, and it will line up with the sun, as it should. This is easier to replicate when you can see the moon during the day because then you can see the sun as well, and line it up. If you do it at night, you will need to use an app to gauge roughly where the sun is and it should line right up with it.

The only reason the moon appears to have a tilt away from the sun is because the sun is further than you perceive it to be.

Bobby Shafto demonstrated this in a video a year or two ago (I tried to find it, but many of Bobby's linked images and videos are gone) - Tom, you were part of this debate. He literally held a string perpendicular to the moon (albeit during the day), and ran it out to the horizon and it lined up directly with the sun even though the moon appeared to have a tilt. How would you explain this?
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2020, 10:26:01 PM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#String_Experiment

Quote
String Experiment

Along the same lines as the above, we are given reference to "string experiments" in which the direction of the Moon's illuminated portion is able to be connected to the sun with a string.


Credit: Bobby Shafto

It has been argued that the string experiment shows that the bodies do actually point at each other. An illusion of some type is occurring and the string experiment "breaks the illusion," demonstrating that the illuminated portion of the Moon is actually pointing at the Sun. If it was not pointing at the Sun then it would not be possible to hold a straight piece of string along that path.

As a reply to this, consider the following scenario:

    You are laying down on the ground on your back, facing upwards, and at the edges of your vision see the top of a pine tree on one side of your vision, and the top of a cabin on the other. You take out a string and connect them together across your vision. Have you proved that the tree is pointing at the cabin?

If you are laying down on the ground on your back and see the Moon pointing upwards on one side of your vision and see the Sun setting at the horizon on the other, a string connecting the two will no more prove that the Moon is pointing at the Sun than it would prove that a tree is pointing at a cabin. When you lay on your back you can see 190 degrees of space1. Just because an object at one side might be pointing "up" at another object at the other side, it doesn't mean that they are pointing at each other.

When wrapped around the observer, this panoramic view of the moon tilt illusion:



Turns into this:



Art Credit: Todd Lockwood

In the above example both the Moon and airplane are on opposite sides of the Sun near point B. The Sun is on the horizon at point A. The Moon and airplane are not actually pointing at the Sun. The string merely connects them two dimensionally across a 'sphere of vision' exactly like the tree-cabin example.

If the airplane was actually pointing at the Sun in the above example, then when looking at the airplane face on, with the Sun on the horizon to your back, you should see the airplane pointed at you and tilted downwards towards the opposite horizon behind you. The same would also apply for the Moon. If the Moon were pointing at the Sun then when you face the Moon its illumined portion should point downwards at the Sun at the horizon behind you, just as an airplane would. Thus, we see that this assertion that the string experiment demonstrates that an illusion is occurring and that bodies are pointing at each other is erroneous. The string experiment may suggest that object positions and straight line paths behave as if they are curving on a dome of some manner, which may provide us with a clue in deciphering the nature of our world, but it does not demonstrate absolute directions of bodies.

A fish-bowl type simulation of the Moon Tilt Illusion can be seen in University of Nebraska-Lincoln's Moon Phases and the Horizon Diagram (.swf Archive) - "Provides a method of learning the correlation between the phase of the moon, the time of day, and the position of the moon in the sky."



Footnotes

1 "our eyes sit in the front of our head, allowing us to see about 60 percent of world in front of us with both eyes, at the compromise that we can only see at maximum about 190 degrees around us (Block 1969; Wolfe 2006)" – Human Spatial Navigation, 2018, p.73
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2020, 01:12:01 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#String_Experiment

Quote
String Experiment

Along the same lines as the above, we are given reference to "string experiments" in which the direction of the Moon's illuminated portion is able to be connected to the sun with a string.


Credit: Bobby Shafto

It has been argued that the string experiment shows that the bodies do actually point at each other. An illusion of some type is occurring and the string experiment "breaks the illusion," demonstrating that the illuminated portion of the Moon is actually pointing at the Sun. If it was not pointing at the Sun then it would not be possible to hold a straight piece of string along that path.

As a reply to this, consider the following scenario:

    You are laying down on the ground on your back, facing upwards, and at the edges of your vision see the top of a pine tree on one side of your vision, and the top of a cabin on the other. You take out a string and connect them together across your vision. Have you proved that the tree is pointing at the cabin?

If you are laying down on the ground on your back and see the Moon pointing upwards on one side of your vision and see the Sun setting at the horizon on the other, a string connecting the two will no more prove that the Moon is pointing at the Sun than it would prove that a tree is pointing at a cabin. When you lay on your back you can see 190 degrees of space1. Just because an object at one side might be pointing "up" at another object at the other side, it doesn't mean that they are pointing at each other.

When wrapped around the observer, this panoramic view of the moon tilt illusion:



Turns into this:



Art Credit: Todd Lockwood

In the above example both the Moon and airplane are on opposite sides of the Sun near point B. The Sun is on the horizon at point A. The Moon and airplane are not actually pointing at the Sun. The string merely connects them two dimensionally across a 'sphere of vision' exactly like the tree-cabin example.

If the airplane was actually pointing at the Sun in the above example, then when looking at the airplane face on, with the Sun on the horizon to your back, you should see the airplane pointed at you and tilted downwards towards the opposite horizon behind you. The same would also apply for the Moon. If the Moon were pointing at the Sun then when you face the Moon its illumined portion should point downwards at the Sun at the horizon behind you, just as an airplane would. Thus, we see that this assertion that the string experiment demonstrates that an illusion is occurring and that bodies are pointing at each other is erroneous. The string experiment may suggest that object positions and straight line paths behave as if they are curving on a dome of some manner, which may provide us with a clue in deciphering the nature of our world, but it does not demonstrate absolute directions of bodies.

A fish-bowl type simulation of the Moon Tilt Illusion can be seen in University of Nebraska-Lincoln's Moon Phases and the Horizon Diagram (.swf Archive) - "Provides a method of learning the correlation between the phase of the moon, the time of day, and the position of the moon in the sky."



Footnotes

1 "our eyes sit in the front of our head, allowing us to see about 60 percent of world in front of us with both eyes, at the compromise that we can only see at maximum about 190 degrees around us (Block 1969; Wolfe 2006)" – Human Spatial Navigation, 2018, p.73
Thank you, Tom, for providing the links that I was referring to!

You can either believe this to be true or you can believe it to be false. It’s “pure imagination”. - Willy Wonka

Edit:

It is obvious to anyone who understands trigonometry that you can connect a straight line from any single point to any other single point.

What makes this the 'Bobby Shafto' observation (string experiment) differnt, is that the line connecting the dots has a perpendicular relationship with one of the points. That limits where the other point can reside. That is simple trigonometry.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 01:58:52 AM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2020, 05:28:47 PM »
I don't see how it would be possible to know how perpendicular your string is to the Moon without some sort of perspective clues.

Consider a green cone perpendicular to the camera:



When putting up a string against it, it cuts through it horizontally.

Now we stand at a non-perpendicular position:



The string still cuts straight through. The only way we know that we are not perpendicular is by the perspective changes apparent in the 3D cone and scene. Otherwise it looks like the string cuts straight through the overall shape of the cone. With the Moon, however, we can't see such changes and visual clues (due to FE-EA theory/RE long distance theory).

Here is a better experiment. The next time you see the Moon Tilt Illusion, turn to look at the Moon so that it is in the center of your vision. Take a string and hold it out arms length, as far from your head as you can, against the Moon, keeping the Moon in the center of your vision. You will see the string shoot off into space:



While it might be possible to carefully position your string and camera in such a way that the Moon seems to connect to the Sun, simply holding the string as far as you can away from yourself, while keeping the Moon in the center, will show that the string shoots off into space.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 07:52:07 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2020, 06:22:42 PM »
I don't see how it would be possible to know how perpendicular your string is to the Moon without some sort of perspective clues.

Consider a green cone perpendicular to the camera:



When putting up a string against it, it cuts through it horizontally.

Now we stand at another non-perpendicular position:



The string still cuts straight through. The only way we know that we are not perpendicular is by the perspective changes apparent in the 3D cone and scene. Otherwise it looks like the string cuts straight through the overall shape of the cone. With the Moon, however, we can't see such changes and visual clues (due to FE-EA theory/RE long distance theory).

Here is a better experiment. The next time you see the Moon Tilt Illusion, turn to look at the Moon so that it is in the center of your vision. Take a string and hold it out arms length, as far from your head as you can, against the Moon, keeping the Moon in the center of your vision. You will see the string shoot off into space:



While it might be possible to carefully position your string and camera in such a way that the Moon seems to connect to the Sun, simply holding the string as far as you can away from yourself, while keeping the Moon in the center, will show that the string shoots off into space.

The trouble with your explanation is that you are trying to make a string perpendicular to the cone on two planes. This would require perspective from both planes. We only get to perceive the sun and moon on one plane because the objects are so far away.

Because I can only perceive the sun and moon in a single plane, making the string perpendicular on that plane is all that matters.

We are currently in a waning moon phase, so I should be able to test this out in the next couple days.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2020, 10:51:57 AM »
I don't see how it would be possible to know how perpendicular your string is to the Moon without some sort of perspective clues.

The point about this illusion is that in RET the distant moon is illuminated by an even more distant sun and that is the only source of illumination the moon has. That means if you see the moon and can see its terminator line then the light must be coming from a direction perpendicular to that line.

When the illusion occurs it looks as if the terminator line is pointing up into the sky while the sun is low near the horizon. So it appears that either the moon is being lit in some other way or the light is bending in some strange way.

But, as the name suggests, this is just an illusion. The point of the string is it demonstrates that there is indeed a straight line which goes from the moon, perpendicular to the terminator line, to the sun. That shows it is just an illusion.

You must be familiar with optical illusions. Our brains are easily tricked. This is why the Zetetic method of just relying on your senses is not sufficient alone to determine the truth about the world.

Quote
Here is a better experiment. The next time you see the Moon Tilt Illusion, turn to look at the Moon so that it is in the center of your vision. Take a string and hold it out arms length, as far from your head as you can, against the Moon, keeping the Moon in the center of your vision. You will see the string shoot off into space:

Have you tried this? Because I don't think so.
If the string is angled so it is perpendicular to the terminator then it will point at the sun.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2020, 04:58:40 PM »
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2020, 08:19:05 PM »
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2020, 08:39:13 PM »
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.

I also think it depends on how far you stretch out the string.

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up. If you extend that string further, you will see that it goes up over your head and back across the sky to point directly at the sun. This is of course because as you stretch it out across the sky, you being to create an arc with the string - which is what, I think, Tom is arguing about. However, since we do not care about that two-dimensional perspective (being able to only see it in one dimension), it is perfectly acceptable to let the string do that as long as you keep the 1-dimension perpendicular to the moons shadow.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2020, 08:51:25 PM »
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.

I also think it depends on how far you stretch out the string.

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up. If you extend that string further, you will see that it goes up over your head and back across the sky to point directly at the sun. This is of course because as you stretch it out across the sky, you being to create an arc with the string - which is what, I think, Tom is arguing about. However, since we do not care about that two-dimensional perspective (being able to only see it in one dimension), it is perfectly acceptable to let the string do that as long as you keep the 1-dimension perpendicular to the moons shadow.
The point is you hold the string taut so you don't create an arc with the string, it should be held so it's a straight line.
And yeah, if you only stretch the string out a little way then it probably would look like it isn't going to point at the sun.
The entire point of the experiment is you continue that line and have enough string that it stretches across the sky. Do that and you'll see it does in fact hit the sun. That's the demonstration that the apparent disparity is simply an optical illusion.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2020, 09:12:02 PM »
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.

I also think it depends on how far you stretch out the string.

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up. If you extend that string further, you will see that it goes up over your head and back across the sky to point directly at the sun. This is of course because as you stretch it out across the sky, you being to create an arc with the string - which is what, I think, Tom is arguing about. However, since we do not care about that two-dimensional perspective (being able to only see it in one dimension), it is perfectly acceptable to let the string do that as long as you keep the 1-dimension perpendicular to the moons shadow.
The point is you hold the string taut so you don't create an arc with the string, it should be held so it's a straight line.
And yeah, if you only stretch the string out a little way then it probably would look like it isn't going to point at the sun.
The entire point of the experiment is you continue that line and have enough string that it stretches across the sky. Do that and you'll see it does in fact hit the sun. That's the demonstration that the apparent disparity is simply an optical illusion.

I am not explaining myself very well, and likely won't be able to without a visual.

The arc that I'm referring to occurs only from the cross plane, which is outside the observers perspective, and only because we are limited to the length of string we can use for an observation. Sorry to muddle up this conversation - I'm in agreement that it does point to the sun. Just trying to figure out how to explain it definitively to someone with an argument such as Tom's cone example.

No matter how many times I try to re-write my explanation it isn't coming out right, so I'm going to leave it for now....



"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2020, 09:21:45 PM »
If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2020, 09:25:50 PM »
If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.

If you have only 1 foot of string, and hold it perpendicular to the moons shadow on your visual plane, it will point up relative to your perspective regardless whether or not it is also pointing at or away from you relative to the 2nd dimension - I'm confused now... why are you now arguing against something you were arguing for just a page ago?
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein