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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2020, 03:15:42 PM »
You flatly refuse to answer.

Fully one-quarter of the replies here have been from me. Your statement does not compute.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2020, 03:18:51 PM »
So how can you get it to turn 45 degrees to perspective, without seeing different sides of the Moon's day and night?

By your movement on the Earth's surface, dependent on the axial tilt at the time of year, the Moon's current position with respect to the ecliptic plane, and on the latitude of your observation point.

Again - model it for yourself in 3D with model Earth and Moon. Orient a camera with the orientation of an observer on the surface of your model Earth.   

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2020, 06:22:44 PM »
We already have the math with the actual RE distances.

I agree that things should not turn much to persoective. The Moon would actually turn negligibly to perspective in RE, less than 2 degrees.

So how can you get it to turn 45 degrees to perspective, without seeing different sides of the Moon's day and night?

How can a pencil or a Rubix Cube tilt to perspective without seeing different sides of it?

You flatly refuse to answer.

You fail to understand that there is not really a "tilt". The Moon appears exactly the way it's supposed to appear. You intuitively expect to be able to draw a straight line from the Moon to the position of the Sun in the sky, perpendicular to the terminator. But this expectation, albeit intuitive, is false. Because of perspective.

How could we explain a tilt when it's not there?
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Offline model 29

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2020, 05:29:15 PM »
Tom, are you confused about the moon's phase appearing to not line up with the sun?  Because this has been explained before and you admitted to understanding it.

Or, are you confused about the face of the moon appearing to rotate throughout the evening?  Because this has also been explained in this thread.

Or, are you confused about both and don't know how to differentiate between the answers being given?

It is apparent that some people will be under the Moon, while others are at another angle and see it low in the sky to their left or right, and must have different perspective views. So those people must see different sides of it.
As would happen with a small local moon a couple thousand miles up, and we do not see this, which disproves flat Earth.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 05:35:56 PM by model 29 »

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2020, 05:50:04 PM »
You fail to understand that there is not really a "tilt". The Moon appears exactly the way it's supposed to appear. You intuitively expect to be able to draw a straight line from the Moon to the position of the Sun in the sky, perpendicular to the terminator. But this expectation, albeit intuitive, is false. Because of perspective.
Actually, far be it from me to argue with one of my RE brethren, but actually the moon tilt illusion is, as the name suggests, an illusion.#
When you observe the effect you can stretch a piece of string from the moon, perpendicular to the terminator, and you'll see that contrary to the way it appears there is a straight line between the moon and sun
It's well explained in this video.



It's a failure of perception caused by the lack of context when observing objects that far away and far apart.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2020, 06:21:45 PM »
You fail to understand that there is not really a "tilt". The Moon appears exactly the way it's supposed to appear. You intuitively expect to be able to draw a straight line from the Moon to the position of the Sun in the sky, perpendicular to the terminator. But this expectation, albeit intuitive, is false. Because of perspective.
Actually, far be it from me to argue with one of my RE brethren, but actually the moon tilt illusion is, as the name suggests, an illusion.#
When you observe the effect you can stretch a piece of string from the moon, perpendicular to the terminator, and you'll see that contrary to the way it appears there is a straight line between the moon and sun

Indeed, by "straight line" I meant a line that appears straight on a 2d projection such as a photograph.

The important point being that there is no need to explain how a tilt happens, because there is no tilt - as you rightly said, it's just the illusion of a tilt.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2020, 02:55:20 PM »
Why does Tom have an obsession with perspective? He has still not explained how he would measure the size and shape of the earth.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2020, 08:19:28 PM »
None of the explanations above, or the video above, tell us how something can tilt to perspective without us seeing different sides of it. Distance has nothing to do with it. It will occur at all scales.



Applying the same to the Moon's day and night, we see that the observation of the Moon at 45 degrees is the same at all distances:



So again, why don't different observers see different sides of the Full Moon?



E8, E7, and E6 should all see different parts of the Moon's day and night, as they are looking at Moon at different angles. They should see different parts of the Full Moon.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 10:03:28 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2020, 09:56:39 PM »
None of the explanations above, or the video above, tell us how something can tilt to perspective without us seeing different sides of it. Distance has nothing to do with it. It will occur at all scales.



I honestly can't tell what you are trying to prove with your Rubik's cubes lines, and how it relates to the Moon tilt illusion. Which is just that: an illusion. There is no problem with the way the Moon appears to us in the night sky.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2020, 03:38:57 PM »
None of the explanations above, or the video above, tell us how something can tilt to perspective
I don’t think the tilt is because of perspective.
Not in the same way that crepuscular rays appearing to emanate from a source is because of perspective.

The moon tilt illusion is...well, an illusion. It’s a failure of perception, just like in the video I posted the photo of the 3 cars is. We are used to things getting smaller as they get further away, if they don’t then our brain tries to understand what’s going on and we perceive the cars as getting bigger.

With the moon tilt illusion we perceive that the terminator points in a different direction to where the sun is. It looks like the line perpendicular to the terminator points upwards, but if you stretch string out in that direction you find it does indeed point at the sun.

Our brains often need context to make sense of things and with that missing we can perceive things incorrectly. That is what causes this illusion.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2020, 05:12:31 PM »
Distance has nothing to do with it. It will occur at all scales.


So, if distance has nothing to do with it, then pick a distance and illustrate that only, rather than placing a selection of dummy Moons at varying distances.

Note that the observer CANNOT see a 90 and a 45 Moon at the same time. In reality, the two will be separated by 3.5 days approx., and the phase will be consistent with that time difference, every time, month after month.

Your illustration shows both, but they cannot occur simultaneously


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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2020, 05:15:05 PM »
Applying the same to the Moon's day and night, we see that the observation of the Moon at 45 degrees is the same at all distances:



So again, why don't different observers see different sides of the Full Moon?

What has the full Moon got to do with this illustration? But ...

Why? The different observers are not far enough apart.





E8, E7, and E6 should all see different parts of the Moon's day and night, as they are looking at Moon at different angles. They should see different parts of the Full Moon.

There is no "day and night" of the Moon when it is in Full Moon phase. But...

The diagram is not to scale. If it were, you would see that the movement of observer(s) between E6 and E8 would not be enough to give them a view of "different parts" of it ....
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 05:18:27 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2020, 06:18:56 PM »
Tom; conventional wisdom holds that the movement of observers on Earth is appreciably faster, in rotational terms, than the movement of the Moon, so your diagrams which show a Moon moving around the Earth are misplaced;

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2020, 06:38:22 PM »
Interestingly, Tom posted then removed this diagram:


Maybe because it could be used to show that the actual angle difference between the blue and red lines is quite small?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2020, 01:52:09 AM »
According to the extreme perspective changes, there is a different view of the Moon when it is overhead, versus at a 45 degree angle.

For the Full Moon:



The view at 45 degrees shows a Moon which is shifted in orientation, and tilted upwards or downwards from the overhead view, as the perspective changes demand.

Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees:



The overhead Full Moon for the Red Observer will be shifted in perspective when viewed at 45 degrees, turning into a Gibbous Moon.

The overhead Gibbous Moon for the Blue Observer will be shifted in perspective when viewed at 45 degrees, turning into a Full Moon.

Q1. If there is a difference in Moon phase when viewed at 90 degrees and 45 degrees for each observer due perspective changes, how can both observers, each with their own personal perspective, view the same Moon with the same phase at the same time?

Q2. Further, if the observer moves from one position to the next, it would suggest that the phase would change, as the observer is observing the Moon at 90 or 45 degrees. A rotating earth would have observers moving from one position to the next.

Please show us a working system which incorporates these extreme perspective effects.

Even if we abandon the idea that there are two observers with their own personal perspective and say that the Earth as a whole is One Observer, and the Moon is shifting in perspective at it moves around the Earth, the Earth is still rotating faster than the Moon is moving, causing the Moon to be 90 degrees overhead or 45 degrees overhead over a span of hours.

Once again, please show us a working system which can get these extreme perspective effects working in a coherent system.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 02:33:19 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline stack

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2020, 02:13:34 AM »
According to the extreme perspective changes, there is a different view of the Moon when it is overhead, versus at a 45 degree angle.

For the Full Moon:



The view at 45 degrees shows a Moon which is shifted in orientation, as the perspective changes demand.

Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees:



The overhead Full Moon for the Red Observer will be shifted in perspective when viewed at 45 degrees, turning into a Gibbous Moon.

The overhead Gibbous Moon for the Blue Observer will be shifted in perspective when viewed at 45 degrees, turning into a Full Moon.

Q1. If there is a difference in Moon phase when viewed at 90 degrees and 45 degrees for each observer due perspective changes, how can both observers view the same Moon with the same phase at the same time?

Q2. Further, if the observer moves from one position to the next, it would suggest that the phase would change, as the observer is observing the Moon at 90 or 45 degrees. A rotating earth would have observers moving from one position to the next.

Please show us a working system which incorporates these extreme perspective effects.

Even if we abandon the idea that there are two observers with their own perspective lines and say that the Earth as a whole is One Observer, and the Moon is shifting in perspective at it moves around the Earth, the Earth is still rotating faster than the Moon is moving, causing the Moon to be 90 degrees overhead or 45 degrees overhead over a span of hours.

Once again, please show us a working system which can get these extreme perspective effects working in a coherent system.

It's the same as the flat earth's coherent system. Wherein lies the problem?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline model 29

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2020, 06:07:03 AM »
Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees:


Not quite to scale, but close.  Also, there is a 4 day difference between what the red and blue observers see.  The moon isn't in two different locations at the same time.

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2020, 07:22:29 AM »
Right. I’ve spent ages trying to understand what your confusion is here but I think I finally have.

According to the extreme perspective changes, there is a different view of the Moon when it is overhead, versus at a 45 degree angle.

I don’t know what you mean by “extreme”. As the moon orbits us then yes, we see different phases because of the way it is lit. Although note that because of the tidal locking the moon rotated as is orbits such that we always see the same face.

This image:



Shows two different moons at two different points in its orbit around the earth. You have shown one observer looking at two different moons.

Quote
Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees

But...you’ve shown two moons in that image too, as if red and blue are looking at two different moons! They are not.
The diagram Great A’Tuin did is a better representation of the reality. And the important angle is the one at which the red and blue lines meet at the moon.
THAT is what determines whether red and blue see different things. The fact they don’t is good evidence for a distant moon.
Were the moon as close as in your model red and blue would indeed see different things.

So the answer to Q1 is simply that there isn’t a difference in moon phase when two observers look at a single distant moon.
They would see different phases if they were looking at two different moons as in your diagrams although they would both see both moons.
I think that’s the answer to both questions.

Dude, this is you once again demonstrating that you do not understand things well. You don’t understand the model you claim can’t work.

A question for you is if the moon is close then why do we all see the same phase and face of it? By your own logic, we should not. It would only be an issue in RE if the two observers were looking at two different moons as you have inexplicably drawn. In reality we all look at the same moon and because it is distant we see the same thing, albeit the other way round in thr Southern Hemisphere.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2020, 08:23:05 AM »

But...you’ve shown two moons in that image too, as if red and blue are looking at two different moons! They are not.
The diagram Great A’Tuin did is a better representation of the reality. And the important angle is the one at which the red and blue lines meet at the moon.


I don't want to take undue credit, the diagram is Tom's. He included it in an earlier version of his post then edited it out.

Still, we can only try to explain how it works based on how it actually works, not based on Tom's misconceptions of how it works.

So, let's help Tom understand how Moon phases actually work. Maybe with this simulation: https://pbslm-contrib.s3.amazonaws.com/WGBH/buac19/buac19-int-earthsunmoon35model/index.html
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 08:46:35 AM by GreatATuin »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2020, 10:39:25 AM »
According to the extreme perspective changes, there is a different view of the Moon when it is overhead, versus at a 45 degree angle.

No, this is simply according to the textbook definition of how the Moon orbits the Earth. It shows a different phase when at 90 degrees to the Earth-Sun axis than when it is at 45. But there's approx 3.5 days between each.

For the Full Moon:
IMG
The view at 45 degrees shows a Moon which is shifted in orientation, and tilted upwards or downwards from the overhead view, as the perspective changes demand.

That's NOT a "full Moon".  There's also approximately 3.5 days between any single observer seeing the first phase, and then the other. The Moon cannot be in two places at once.


Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees:
IMG

NO. Each observer will see the first phase of the Moon at one time, THEN, 3.5 days or so later, they will see it in its second phase



Q1. If there is a difference in Moon phase when viewed at 90 degrees and 45 degrees for each observer due perspective changes, how can both observers, each with their own personal perspective, view the same Moon with the same phase at the same time?

There is no significant difference in the Moon phase as it moves across an observer's sky on any given day or night.

Q2. Further, if the observer moves from one position to the next, it would suggest that the phase would change, as the observer is observing the Moon at 90 or 45 degrees. A rotating earth would have observers moving from one position to the next.

NO. The phase changes only to the extent of the few degrees I showed above, which for the observer moving on the face of the Earth, viewing with the naked eye, on any one day or night, will be no visible change at all. Please refer to my earlier post

Even if we abandon the idea that there are two observers with their own personal perspective and say that the Earth as a whole is One Observer, and the Moon is shifting in perspective at it moves around the Earth, the Earth is still rotating faster than the Moon is moving, causing the Moon to be 90 degrees overhead or 45 degrees overhead over a span of hours.

If the Earth as a whole is "one observer", then it's rotational rate does not matter.

However, in actuality, the Moon has not moved to any significant extent in that time, so it still has essentially the same face illuminated by the sun. The same phase.

Once again, please show us a working system which can get these extreme perspective effects working in a coherent system.

Shown you that already. You were shown it in the previous thread wherein you raised the "moon tilt illusion". This isn't our first rodeo on this topic.



Once again - in the time that a single observer takes to move from E1 to E2, the Moon moves from the right-hand dotted line of sight to the left-hand one.

No significant change in phase. No 45 degree movement of the Moon. Just a few degrees in its orbit. Meanwhile, the observer on Earth has seen the Moon go from directly overhead to being on their horizon.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 10:50:19 AM by Tumeni »
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