*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7524
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #100 on: July 20, 2020, 07:37:27 PM »
According to the wiki, the person making the claim (the father), never actually observed the phenomenon himself. He only saw the photograph.

Keep reading:

"I'm very surprised that some of you have never noticed it before hence the suggestion asking me to post a video. This is a very common occurrence and I have seen it many many times as I go for my morning walk at about 8.00am every morning. I have never thought of actually tabulating my observations"

"The anomaly is acknowledged to exist with or without photos."
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

*

Offline timterroo

  • *
  • Posts: 1052
  • domo arigato gozaimashita
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #101 on: July 20, 2020, 07:39:59 PM »
According to the wiki, the person making the claim (the father), never actually observed the phenomenon himself. He only saw the photograph.

Keep reading:

"I'm very surprised that some of you have never noticed it before hence the suggestion asking me to post a video. This is a very common occurrence and I have seen it many many times as I go for my morning walk at about 8.00am every morning. I have never thought of actually tabulating my observations"

"The anomaly is acknowledged to exist with or without photos."

He's referring to a different observation altogether, not at all the same one as in the photograph. We have established that the moon tilt illusion does exist. So the man can possibly also see this illusion, but not to the extent as in the photograph.

The photo does not allow the observer to account for a 3 dimensional perspective. It is a false premise.

The 3 dimensional perspective is what allows the string experiment to work.

The angle in that photo is quite different than it is in reality. The sun and moon do not appear that close together in reality. In reality, during that particular moon-phase, you wouldn't be able to look at the moon and sun at the same time, but because of photographic technology that skews the photo, you can see them at the same time. Therefore, presenting this photo as evidence is disingenuous.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 07:50:45 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7524
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #102 on: July 20, 2020, 10:50:53 PM »
Quote from: timterroo
the person making the claim (the father), never actually observed the phenomenon himself.

Quote from: timterroo
He's referring to a different observation altogether, not at all the same one as in the photograph. We have established that the moon tilt illusion does exist. So the man can possibly also see this illusion, but not to the extent as in the photograph.

So he did observe the phenomenon for himself then.

Quote
The 3 dimensional perspective is what allows the string experiment to work.

The string experiment does not give enough information to tell how an object is angled.

Quote from: timterroo
The angle in that photo is quite different than it is in reality. The sun and moon do not appear that close together in reality. In reality, during that particular moon-phase, you wouldn't be able to look at the moon and sun at the same time

This is incorrect. We can see 190 degrees of space using both of our eyes. Unless there are horizon or object obstructions the Sun and Moon will not ever be in a position when they are above the horizon and where it is impossible to see both at the same time.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #103 on: July 21, 2020, 06:03:52 AM »
We can see 190 degrees of space using both of our eyes. Unless there are horizon or object obstructions the Sun and Moon will not ever be in a position when they are above the horizon and where it is impossible to see both at the same time.

I would not like unkind remarks about swivel-eyed loons, so you might like to check that claim. Human vision is about 150 degrees, but the majority of that field only registers movement and large objects. Our central field of vision where details are more important only covers about 30 degrees and we only resolve text, phase angle of moon, etc within a much narrower angle of 2-3 degrees. Unlike a 200 degree wide panoramic photograph.

To see wider involves changing your viewpoint, just like panning the camera for ultra-wide photography. This is how the illusion of the moon tilting wrongly arises.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 06:37:13 AM by Longtitube »

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 2375
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #104 on: July 21, 2020, 08:30:03 AM »
The string experiment does not give enough information to tell how an object is angled.

It does, in the plane that matters. For the reasons I outlined above. It does not matter if the string is angled across the plane of the three objects, since the observer can not see it from above or below the plane.

Unless there are horizon or object obstructions the Sun and Moon will not ever be in a position when they are above the horizon and where it is impossible to see both at the same time.

Incorrect. See any YouTube video of a selenelion eclipse. With Sun and Moon 180 degrees opposite each other in the observer's (EDIT roughly-) horizontal plane, the observer cannot see the Sun, behind them, if looking at the Moon, and vice versa.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 12:03:15 PM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #105 on: July 21, 2020, 09:24:27 AM »
I never called the string experiment a lie. I called it erroneous.
You did. But the experiment you seem to have done - which you called "better" - was to stretch a short bit of string perpendicular to the moon's terminator, observe that the string appears to shoot up into the sky and drawn conclusions from that.
You haven't confirmed that's what you did, that's what it sounded like from your description, but you haven't corrected me either.
If that is what you did, I have explained why that is actually a worse experiment.
It's worse because you have inferred where the line goes if continued - I have demonstrated that we are not very good at judging that. How is doing that better than continuing the line and observing where it goes? Those of us who have done that have seen it goes to the sun. I know, it doesn't look like it will. It's an optical illusion. That is literally what optical illusion means - something which isn't as it appears.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 11945
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #106 on: July 21, 2020, 03:40:29 PM »
Furthermore, you admit that it is a panoramic photo, but still somehow you want to use it as evidence? You might as well use "that everest photo" as evidence to support the claim made by the climber who asserts they see a curve on the horizon.
I've gotta say, I'm convinced by your argument here. While the moon tilt illusion clearly occurs and can be witnessed, the photographed used in the Wiki is not a great illustration* of it.

* - n.b. I don't believe replacing it with a better photo would turn it into evidence, but a better illustration would still be an improvement.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

Offline edby

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #107 on: July 21, 2020, 04:40:40 PM »
Panoramics don't generally turn straight lines into curves, by the way, otherwise the horizon, powerlines, and all elements in panoramics would show this warping. Take a panoramic of the horizon around you and it's generally straight.

Yes they do generally turn straight lines into curves, except for radial lines through the view centre, i.e. the horizon.

http://hugin.sourceforge.net/docs/manual/The_General_Panini_Projection.html

Another example below. Any straight line at eye level will come out as straight. Any parallel line below, such as the tracks, will curve upwards (because parallel lines appear to converge with distance). By the same logic, any parallel line above (the wires) will curve downwards. The horizon is therefore a special case.


« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 04:50:06 PM by edby »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7524
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #108 on: July 21, 2020, 05:48:23 PM »
That is very incorrect. Your link is talking about the 'General Panini Projection'. Panoramas do not all turn all lines into curves as a rule. Most people prefer their straight lines to stay straight.

I would suggest searching for 'rectilinear panoramas'.

https://www.ptgui.com/man/projections.html

Quote
Rectilinear projection has the unique property of preserving all straight lines: any line that is straight in real world, is displayed as a straight line in the panorama. This makes it a suitable projection for architectural panoramas.

However due to the same property it is physically impossible to display panoramas wider or taller than 180 degrees in rectilinear projection. At higher field of view, stretching becomes apparent in the sides and corners of the image. This stretching becomes severe already at 120 degrees and more.

The corner stretching effect can be reduced by using horizontal and/or vertical compression: click on Projection Settings in the Panorama Editor and move the compression sliders to the right. By compressing the rectilinear view it is possible to create panoramas up to 180 x 180 degrees without extreme distortion. Horizontal and vertical lines are still preserved as straight but diagonal lines become curved when compression is used.

Once again:

"any line that is straight in real world, is displayed as a straight line in the panorama"

The horizon can appear flat at various points on a panorama:



« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 06:28:12 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline edby

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #109 on: July 21, 2020, 06:28:20 PM »
That is very incorrect. Your link is talking about the 'General Panini Projection'. Panoramas do not all turn all lines into curves as a rule. Most people prefer their straight lines to stay straight.
So we take a panorama of both directions of a railway track. The tracks will not appear to converge in the far distance in each direction? How?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 06:29:53 PM by edby »

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #110 on: July 21, 2020, 07:10:07 PM »
This whole discussion about panoramas is a diversion. The moon tilt illusion observably happens. Surely what is relevant is why it happens and whether its explanation is a point for (or against) FET or RET.

My take: it’s an optical illusion - the string experiment proves that. Yes, it looks like the string perpendicular to the terminator will shoot off into space but if you keep following the line you’ll see it doesn't. Like all optical illusions it’s an interesting insight into the way our brains process visual information, nothing more.

This isn’t a point for or against either model, in both models the moon is illuminated by the sun (ignoring some models where the moon is self illuminated which are, in my view, just silly).

The only potential point against FE with this illusion, once you understand that it’s an optical illusion, is that in FET would you actually expect the line perpendicular to the moon’s terminator to reach the sun? Wouldn’t EA mean the light should bend? Not sure about this. The Wiki claims that the illusion is a prediction of EA but I don’t understand this as when the illusion happens the light appears to bend the opposite way to the way EA predicts. Although, as discussed, it’s an optical illusion. The light isn’t really bending at all.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 7524
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #111 on: July 21, 2020, 07:23:16 PM »
My take: it’s an optical illusion - the string experiment proves that. Yes, it looks like the string perpendicular to the terminator will shoot off into space but if you keep following the line you’ll see it doesn't.

Again, that "take" is erroneous. There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky.

« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 07:27:39 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline edby

  • *
  • Posts: 1214
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #112 on: July 21, 2020, 07:27:49 PM »
This whole discussion about panoramas is a diversion. The moon tilt illusion observably happens. Surely what is relevant is why it happens and whether its explanation is a point for (or against) FET or RET.
The illusion happens for the same reason that parallel lines in a panorama (an uncorrected panorama, not using the form of correction that Tom refers to) appear to converge. The underlying phenomenon is the same.

*

Offline timterroo

  • *
  • Posts: 1052
  • domo arigato gozaimashita
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #113 on: July 21, 2020, 08:19:22 PM »
This whole discussion about panoramas is a diversion. The moon tilt illusion observably happens. Surely what is relevant is why it happens and whether its explanation is a point for (or against) FET or RET.

My take: it’s an optical illusion - the string experiment proves that. Yes, it looks like the string perpendicular to the terminator will shoot off into space but if you keep following the line you’ll see it doesn't. Like all optical illusions it’s an interesting insight into the way our brains process visual information, nothing more.

This isn’t a point for or against either model, in both models the moon is illuminated by the sun (ignoring some models where the moon is self illuminated which are, in my view, just silly).

The only potential point against FE with this illusion, once you understand that it’s an optical illusion, is that in FET would you actually expect the line perpendicular to the moon’s terminator to reach the sun? Wouldn’t EA mean the light should bend? Not sure about this. The Wiki claims that the illusion is a prediction of EA but I don’t understand this as when the illusion happens the light appears to bend the opposite way to the way EA predicts. Although, as discussed, it’s an optical illusion. The light isn’t really bending at all.

My only point about the picture being panoramic was simply to discredit it as evidence, and that (as Pete agreed), it is not a good example of what is happening in reality.

So, getting past the distorted picture, and back to the point:

If the best argument against the string experiment is that "There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky", then at least Tom is admitting that it is possible to connect the string from the moon to the sun. We need no further evidence to assert that it is POSSIBLE that the moon is being illuminated by the sun AND that no bending of light is necessary.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 08:21:27 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #114 on: July 21, 2020, 08:38:04 PM »
Again, that "take" is erroneous. There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky.
I think I understand your argument but let me try and explain it with a diagram of my own. Let's simplify by representing this in 2D.
So the sun is at the bottom, moon is at the top. All not to scale of course.
The left moon and sun I've drawn the light going in a straight line, on the right the light travels in an arc. This of course would mean a different moon phase than if the light was travelling straight.
On the left I've drawn two orange "strings" at different angles. If you were looking from the left then all 4 of those lines would line up:



So is that your argument? The fact that you can hold a string up doesn't prove the light is travelling in a straight line because it could be bending away from you? I mean, technically that is true, but I don't see how that applies to this situation. The image from your Wiki:



How would you line up a straight piece of string along that apparent curve? The experiment you have apparently done (again, you haven't clarified either way, so I'm surmising from your description) is to hold a short piece of string and observe that it looks as thought it "shoots off into space". But that is a poor experiment because it is just you trying to judge where the line goes. I have shown another optical illusion which demonstrates quite clearly that we are poor at making such judgements. The only way to find out where the line goes is to stretch out more string and find out. I have done so and, contrary to appearances found that it points at the sun.

Can I ask how you think that this effect is a prediction of EA? The light looks to be bending downwards when this effect occurs, not upwards as EA claims.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 2375
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #115 on: July 21, 2020, 09:49:53 PM »
There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky.



They only look different because the viewpoint is one from outwith the observer's.

If you looked at them from your little man's viewpoint, they would all look the same. I refer you to my point above about it not matter whether the string is held with one end or the other nearer or further to you than the line connecting Moon and Sun.

The alignment is along the plane of the triangle mentioned.

EDIT - additionally, if the yellow orb is the sun, with the Moon to the right of the observer, and the orange are other POSSIBLE sun positions, then there are possible string positions for each, indicated by multiple red dotted lines - but there can only be one at any one time ... neither the sun nor the moon can be in two places at once.

Pick one, and a triangle is formed by sun, moon, and observer. It matters not if the plane of that triangle differs from the plane of another triangle, from a different observation at a different time. For each observation, at a particular time, there is only one triangle. Again, see my explanation(s) above. The observer aligns the string with the plane of the triangle, and from his viewpoint it is superimposed on the line connecting sun and moom.

Because he can ONLY have a viewpoint aligned with the plane of the triangle, looking along the sides to sun, moon, or at points along the side connecting them, he cannot perceive if the string is non-parallel to the side opposite him, but can perceive it to be aligned with the plane and the opposite side.

Further EDIT



The blue triangle is the one I described; the orange lines are the observer's string. It connects two sides, and will always be on the plane of the triangle, although it could be non-parallel to the side opposite the observer. This non-parallelness does not matter. Alignment with the plane of the triangle does.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 09:57:30 AM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Offline ChrisTP

  • *
  • Posts: 926
    • View Profile
Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #116 on: July 22, 2020, 08:41:32 AM »
My take: it’s an optical illusion - the string experiment proves that. Yes, it looks like the string perpendicular to the terminator will shoot off into space but if you keep following the line you’ll see it doesn't.

Again, that "take" is erroneous. There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky.


You can do that with any round object lit by a light source as long as you hold the string perpendicular to the terminator line, what matters is when you bring the string from one object to the light source to see if the perpendicular line is heading directly toward the light source, if it goes off past the light source at an angle you might have a point to make, but not letting the line meet or go past the light source seems like a purposeful diversion.

It's a cool optical illusion.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?