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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #80 on: July 12, 2020, 08:11:18 PM »
Quote

The phase of the ball will change with small movements around the scene. If the camera is somewhere behind his hand looking up at the moon the ping pong ball is going to be a darker phase. If the camera is angled from lower, looking up, the phase of the ping pong ball is going to be pointing more upwards.

Take a small half-colored ball and see how easy it is to change phase in relation to a point in the distance with small movements.

This is another case of Metabunk's patented: "I used a highly variable close range perspective effect and got something to match. Proofz!!!"
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 09:03:28 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #81 on: July 12, 2020, 08:22:29 PM »
Quote

The phase of the ball will change with small movements around the scene. If the camera is somewhere behind his hand looking up at the moon the ping pong ball is going to be a darker phase. If the camera is angled from lower, looking up, the phase of the ping pong ball is going to be pointing more upwards.

Take a small half-colored ball and see how easy it is to change phase in relation to a point in the distance with small movements.

This is another case of: "I used a highly variable close range perspective effect and got something to match. Proofz!!!"

It may not be definitive proof, but it IS proof that it is POSSIBLE that the sun is pointing at the moon just as RET says it should.
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #82 on: July 12, 2020, 08:26:22 PM »
Here is another example from MetaBunk:

In a MetaBunk thread Mick West views a Moon Tilt Illusion and performs the following:



The red arrows in the image above are drawn by Mick West and depicts the directions of light for the bodies in question, as seen from a far vantage point. The Moon (top red arrow) is unexpectedly pointing above the Sun while the ball on a post (bottom red arrow) is pointing towards the Sun, as would be expected. It is expected that bodies illuminated by the Sun would point towards it.

Mr. West then approaches the ball and angles the camera close and right up to the ball on a post to get it to point away from the Sun like the Moon does:



Mr. West concluded that this is what must be happening with the Moon.

The author uses a close-range perspective effect to match the Moon. There is little doubt that holding something very near to one's face or camera can create lots of angles. Yet, in the first far distance scene the illuminated portion of the ball points at the Sun. It is not until the observer gets up close to the ball, to a special carefully selected position beneath it, that the ball is able to point away from the sun, in a similar direction as the Moon.

So we see, the phase of the ball does not behave in the same at all positions. One must carefully select the position of the camera to match the Moon.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 08:31:55 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #83 on: July 12, 2020, 09:09:41 PM »
Have you tried the experiment yourself? The purpose of the photo in my post is to illustrate what to do in the interests of finding out for myself without using wideangle photographs (with distortion) or panoramic compositions stitched together in Photoshop which show much wider fields of view than the human eye can possibly see (also with distortion). Perspective has nothing to do with it.

If the illusion is caused by EA, the light striking the ping pong ball just 7 feet above Earth's surface would show a much different terminator line angle than that on the moon some thousands of miles above the Earth, but until some more homework is done on that equation in the Wiki, no calculation can be done on the difference to be expected.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 09:21:43 PM by Longtitube »
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #84 on: July 12, 2020, 09:37:57 PM »
You seem to be arguing that it is possible to hold the laser pointer in such a way that it is parallel to the ground and seems to match the upward angle of the ascending lamps.
I'm not arguing it. I have quite clearly demonstrated it.
I don't know what you mean by holding the pointer in a "special way". I simply lined the string up with the top of the fence. 

It really is as simple as this. If the moon is being lit by the sun then a straight line perpendicular to the terminator of the moon should point at the sun because that is where the light which illuminates the moon comes from. When this optical illusion happens it appears that the terminator points up into the sky and thus that straight line will shoot off into space. That is what it looks like.

What you appear to have done is to hold up a short bit of string perpendicular to the terminator, observed that it does indeed look like the line made by the string will, if continued, shoot off into space and not investigated further. I have explained why that is not sufficient - we are not very good at determining where straight lines will continue as demonstrated by the other optical illusion I've mentioned. The only way of telling where the line goes is to spool out enough string to find out. If you do - as I have - then you will find that the line does, contrary to appearances, actually point at the sun. And that's what you'd expect if the moon is being lit by the sun.
I know it doesn't look like it will, but that's literally what is meant by an optical illusion.

You seem to be simultaneously arguing that the line perpendicular to the terminator "shoots off into space" and then when people who have done the experiment tell you that if you stretch the string out properly then you'll find it does intersect the sun you are declaring that irrelevant.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 09:40:37 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2020, 10:06:17 PM »
IMG snipped

The phase of the ball will change with small movements around the scene. If the camera is somewhere behind his hand looking up at the moon the ping pong ball is going to be a darker phase. If the camera is angled from lower, looking up, the phase of the ping pong ball is going to be pointing more upwards.

Of course it will. So what? Do you really STILL not get the point of the exercise? 

The whole idea is to look at the ball AT THE SAME ANGLE at which you are looking at the Moon. Call the datum line between your eye and the ball, or your eye and the Moon, the zero degree 'datum' line.

For the ball, in order to move your eye or camera to the side, such that you have moved the datum line 5 degrees, you move your eye or camera a small distance.

In order to do the same for the Moon, you must move it a large distance.

So if you move the eye or camera a small distance to yield a different phase on the ball, you will not have changed your view of the phase of the Moon. Because the Moon is much further away than the ball.

In order to match the angle, you hold the ball as close as you can to the Moon in your field of vision, hold the ball in line with the Moon, such that the angles match as closely as they can. If you don't, there's no point. 
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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #86 on: July 13, 2020, 05:48:25 AM »
Have you tried the experiment yourself? The purpose of the photo in my post is to illustrate what to do in the interests of finding out ...

No answer yet, so I presume the OP is outside with a golf or ping pong ball trying it for him/herself. It’s a particularly good time to try it, the moon is at last quarter right now so the terminator line is especially easy to see.

Let us know how you get on.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline GreatATuin

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #87 on: July 13, 2020, 07:46:43 AM »
In my last diagram it was possible to angle the laser pointer even straight upwards and get it to match the scene.

The Sun and Moon aren't on random locations in the sky. The Sun and Moon follow the ecliptic. They follow near the same path. It's possible to get a string to point a Sun at a number of points on the ecliptic, just like the laser pointer can point in a large range of motion from my last diagram.



So really, this string stuff is really rather erroneous and does not demonstrate where the Moon is actually pointing.

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to get at with this diagram (with the Moon and Sun at the same distance from Earth, which is absolutely not the RE model - but that's another question).

Let's take a triangle, A being the center of the Moon, B the center of the Sun, C your eye.

If you hold a string between any point on AC and any point on BC, this line will appear to your eye as a straight line between A and B. There are infinite possibilities but the end result is the same. You will see a projection of AB.

Why don't you try for yourself? Find the Moon, find the Sun, hold a string. Tell us if it works. Just don't stare at the Sun because of the possible eye damage.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

you guys just read what you want to read

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2020, 09:14:43 AM »
Let's take a triangle, A being the center of the Moon, B the center of the Sun, C your eye.

If you hold a string between any point on AC and any point on BC, this line will appear to your eye as a straight line between A and B. There are infinite possibilities but the end result is the same. You will see a projection of AB.

To put it another way;



When viewed from the side, the three points form the plane of the triangle, and it appears as a straight line from this viewpoint, because you cannot perceive its shape from looking at its edge. However, the observer can only view the plane of it from point C itself, not from the point of view of the side view shown.

A string held up at point C, the earth observer, aligned with side AB would in side view, simply merge into the plane of the triangle. It looks to be parallel to side AB from the observer viewpoint. It could be parallel, and it might vary, but from this viewpoint, it could not be seen whether it was or not.

If viewed from above the triangle, Tom appears to be arguing in the last page or two that whilst the string appears to be parallel to AB, it could be non-parallel, and still appear to the Earth observer to be so (still in the plane of the triangle, but non-parallel to AB - aligned across the triangle, as it were). This appears to be the argument starting with the green cone. Yes, it is possible to align the string with AB along the plane, but have it non-parallel to the side itself; but this does. not. matter.

It only matters if the observer has the ability to view the situation from above. Nobody can do this.   

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2020, 09:41:49 AM »
Mr. West ...

The author uses a close-range perspective effect to match the Moon. There is little doubt that holding something very near to one's face or camera can create lots of angles. Yet, in the first far distance scene the illuminated portion of the ball points at the Sun. It is not until the observer gets up close to the ball, to a special carefully selected position beneath it, that the ball is able to point away from the sun, in a similar direction as the Moon.

So we see, the phase of the ball does not behave in the same at all positions. One must carefully select the position of the camera to match the Moon.

The observer, without the ball, can look at the Moon, or the Sun, or points elsewhere. If he looks at the Moon, he is looking along side CA, toward A; if at the Sun, along side CB, toward B.

The only place to hold the ball in order to see if its phase matches that of the Moon is ON side CA. If you hold it elsewhere, at any of the "other angles" or "other positions" that you refer to, you've instantly defeated the whole point of the exercise.

Since it is impossible to see through most ping-pong or golf balls, the observer must hold the ball slightly off from the line of side CA in order to see both the ball and the Moon. If it is held perfectly ON the line, it will obscure the Moon.

OF COURSE the phase of the ball will vary if you look at it from different places. If you look at it from between it and the sun, from a point along side CB, toward C, it will have no phase, and all you will see is the lit surface. If you look at it from outwith the triangle, from a point extended along BC but "behind" the ball with respect to the Sun, all you will see is shade. The phase will vary according to the angle at which you view it, and will only match the Moon's if you hold it such that you are viewing it AND the Moon from the same angle.

The whole idea of the exercise is to observe the ball from the same angle at which you are viewing the Moon. 

Your lamp posts from a page or so back (currently #74) only line up if you stand in line with them. Clearly, if you stand elsewhere, they will not line up. Clearly, if you do not align your line of sight with the ball AND the Moon, they will not appear to have the same phase.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 10:36:14 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline junker

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #90 on: July 14, 2020, 09:33:22 AM »
Have you tried the experiment yourself? The purpose of the photo in my post is to illustrate what to do in the interests of finding out ...

No answer yet, so I presume the OP is outside with a golf or ping pong ball trying it for him/herself. It’s a particularly good time to try it, the moon is at last quarter right now so the terminator line is especially easy to see.

Let us know how you get on.

Please don't bump threads in the upper fora if you aren't going to contribute anything to the topic. Especially if it is just quoting a post you made 8 hours before and whining that someone hasn't replied to you.

Warned.

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2020, 09:42:46 AM »
Noted. No whine intended, I’ll wait patiently instead.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2020, 06:02:05 PM »
OK, here's an image I found in the wiki (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion):



This is an attempt to prove that the sun can't possibly be pointing at the moon.

My first thought when looking at this picture, was very similar to the wiki's quoted text saying

Quote
I immediately noticed this anomaly that the light illuminating the moon could not possibly come from the sun.

There is something that doesn't appear right in this photo...........

sigh......

It's a panoramic photo!

You can't make any determination one way or the other with it. It isn't representative of reality, whatsoever.

Edit:

TBH, I would suggest removing it from the wiki because it undermines the point you are trying to make because the photo is skewed since it is panoramic - and it is probably obvious to most who view it that it is in fact a panoramic photo.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 06:31:43 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2020, 06:42:38 PM »
OK, here's an image I found in the wiki (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion):



There is something that doesn't appear right in this photo...........

sigh......

It's a panoramic photo!

You can't make any determination one way or the other with it. It isn't representative of reality, whatsoever.

Exactly. You can use Stellarium or any other good star chart program to check the Moon phase for the date in the photo and you'll find it's correct. What you'll also find is the Sun and Moon are about 140 degrees apart horizontally near sunset as in the photograph – if you were standing facing the Moon, the Sun would be behind your right shoulder. My mother may have had eyes in the back of her head, but I can't see that wide. The photograph is useless without that extra information.
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #94 on: July 20, 2020, 06:52:54 PM »
OK, here's an image I found in the wiki (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion):



This is an attempt to prove that the sun can't possibly be pointing at the moon.

My first thought when looking at this picture, was very similar to the wiki's quoted text saying

Quote
I immediately noticed this anomaly that the light illuminating the moon could not possibly come from the sun.

There is something that doesn't appear right in this photo...........

sigh......

It's a panoramic photo!

You can't make any determination one way or the other with it. It isn't representative of reality, whatsoever.

Edit:

TBH, I would suggest removing it from the wiki because it undermines the point you are trying to make because the photo is skewed since it is panoramic - and it is probably obvious to most who view it that it is in fact a panoramic photo.

The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. That was just a panoramic they took. I would suggest actually reading the content.

Panoramics don't generally turn straight lines into curves, by the way, otherwise the horizon, powerlines, and all elements in panoramics would show this warping. Take a panoramic of the horizon around you and it's generally straight.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 07:14:31 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #95 on: July 20, 2020, 07:09:05 PM »
The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. I would suggest actually reading the content.

First off, please don't make assumptions about what I have and have not read - I read the content.

Secondly, since when do you take someone's word as evidence of anything other than words? Many have told you they demonstrated the string experiment and found that the sun does in fact point to the moon - yet you have routinely dismissed this as evidence, why do you now believe (or expect someone else to believe) someone's word in this case?

Panoramics don't generally turn straight lines into curves, by the way, otherwise the horizon, powerlines, and all elements would show this warping.

Have you ever taken a panoramic photo? They absolutely DO change straight lines into curves, that's how it can grab 180 degrees and shrink it into 50.

Look closely at that picture, you will see that the fence and (more prevalently), the power lines do curve. Just hold a ruler or any straight edge up to the photograph. Seriously, give it a try on the power line. There is no easier way to argue this - and you won't convince anybody that it is straight.

Edit:

Furthermore, you admit that it is a panoramic photo, but still somehow you want to use it as evidence? You might as well use "that everest photo" as evidence to support the claim made by the climber who asserts they see a curve on the horizon.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 07:17:31 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #96 on: July 20, 2020, 07:16:45 PM »
The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. That was just a panoramic they took. I would suggest actually reading the content.

Excellent advice, do read the content, especially the link to the original Stack Exchange post:–

Quote
Below is a photo that my son took in Scotland showing the sun and moon at the same time. I immediately noticed this anomaly...

The poster was not present when the panoramic photo was taken by his son. Actually, it's more accurate to say photos because a panorama is made of several photos joined together later by software. Make a wide enough panorama and it's easy to give the wrong impression of where something is pointing.

How did you get on with the ping pong ball experiment?
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2020, 07:29:56 PM »
Quote
First off, please don't make assumptions about what I have and have not read - I read the content.

Secondly, since when do you take someone's word as evidence of anything other than words? Many have told you they demonstrated the string experiment and found that the sun does in fact point to the moon - yet you have routinely dismissed this as evidence, why do you now believe (or expect someone else to believe) someone's word in this case?

I never called the string experiment a lie. I called it erroneous.

Quote
Have you ever taken a panoramic photo? They absolutely DO change straight lines into curves, that's how it can grab 180 degrees and shrink it into 50.

Horizons are flat in panoramas, not curved. It's possible to get some curving if the camera is not perfectly horizontal when turning - http://www.theperfectpanorama.com/articles/problem-6-horizons.html or possibly if it's not a rectilinear lens or other causes.

Quote
Furthermore, you admit that it is a panoramic photo, but still somehow you want to use it as evidence? You might as well use "that everest photo" as evidence to support the claim made by the climber who asserts they see a curve on the horizon.

There might be some curving in that photo. The evidence is the text, however, that people regularly see this themselves. The panorama provided does show how the moon points upward with the Moon Tilt Illusion.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 07:50:11 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #98 on: July 20, 2020, 07:33:02 PM »
Quote
Excellent advice, do read the content, especially the link to the original Stack Exchange post:–

Quote
Below is a photo that my son took in Scotland showing the sun and moon at the same time. I immediately noticed this anomaly...

The poster was not present when the panoramic photo was taken by his son.

Incorrect. The source says that they saw the effect for themselves.

From the author:

"I'm very surprised that some of you have never noticed it before hence the suggestion asking me to post a video. This is a very common occurrence and I have seen it many many times as I go for my morning walk at about 8.00am every morning. I have never thought of actually tabulating my observations"

"The anomaly is acknowledged to exist with or without photos."
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 07:36:41 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline timterroo

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2020, 07:36:17 PM »
There might be some curving in that photos. The evidence is the text, however, that people regularly see this themselves.

The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. I would suggest actually reading the content.

You keep mentioning the evidence is the text. The evidence is that they "saw it for themselves".

According to the wiki, the person making the claim (the father), never actually observed the phenomenon himself. He only saw the photograph.

Quote
Below is a photo that my son took in Scotland showing the sun and moon at the same time. I immediately noticed this anomaly that the light illuminating the moon could not possibly come from the sun.

Therefore, the fact that the photograph is skewed from reality is a MAJOR conflict and discrediting factor. It probably explains why nobody but a single librarian responded to his inquiries.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein