The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Investigations => Topic started by: Tom Bishop on March 20, 2020, 06:06:37 PM

Title: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 20, 2020, 06:06:37 PM
The explanation for the Moon Tilt Illusion (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion) in RE is an effect of perspective.

When viewing the Moon Tilt Illusion, the Moon will often be tilted upwards:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/6/61/Moon_Tilt_Illusion.png/900px-Moon_Tilt_Illusion.png)

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/3a/Moon_Tilt_Northern_Waxing.png)

RE Theorists explain this as result of a perspective effect, as so:

(https://i.ibb.co/pzdxY3b/Moon-Tilt-Perspective2.gif)

Zoomed out:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZK6yfjm.png)

The Moon will tilt upwards, like if standing in the middle of a long hallway, and seeing the edges of that hallway dip down when looking to the left and right:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/a/a5/Hallway-Perspective.png/900px-Hallway-Perspective.png)

We are standing in the middle of the hallway, and the Moon travels across the ceiling, pointing upwards or downwards in relation to our position. When it approaches us the Moon pointing upwards, and when it passes by and recedes from us, we see the Moon pointing downwards. In order to tilt upwards and downwards to perspective, or for any perspective changes, we must see different sides of the body.

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/5/56/Pencil-Tilt-Vertical-Headon.gif)

As an object travels across the Hallway past us we must see different parts of it as it tilts, turns, and changes orientation to perspective. RE responds by saying that the Moon is physically tidally locked to the Earth, that the face is always pointing at us, and we are seeing perspective changes of the shadow upon the lunar surface as the Moon approaches and recedes from us.

Moon Phase Diagram

If we are seeing different sides of the light and dark part of the Moon point upwards and downwards due to perspective, the phases can be illustrated as in the below diagram.

An observer located at E1 observes the Moon traveling between points M8, M1, and M2 due to its movement over time. The Moon tilts upwards to the left of the observer at M8, at a right angle overhead at M1, and downwards to the right of the observer at M2. 

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/9/93/Phases-perspective.png)

If this is true, and we are viewing different sides of the phases due to perspective changes, then it would suggest that observers at points E8 and E6 at the same moment in time should see different sides of the Full Moon (M7).

Yet, we know that all observers see a Full Moon at once. How can this be reconciled in the Round Earth theory of extreme perspective changes that is invoked to explain the Moon Tilt Illusion?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 20, 2020, 06:38:58 PM
As an object travels across the Hallway past us we must see different parts of it as it tilts, turns, and changes orientation to perspective. RE responds by saying that the Moon is physically tidally locked to the Earth, that the face is always pointing at us, and we are seeing perspective changes of the shadow upon the lunar surface as the Moon approaches and recedes from us.

No, RE does not "respond" to your hallway analogy with anything. RE does not state that the shadow changes due to the Moon approaching or receding. The change in the extent of the shadow is entirely due to the Moon's changing position IN ITS ORBIT with respect to the observer on Earth. Any change in orientation of the shadow is entirely due to the observer's changing position, where they are "moved" by being on Earth's surface, which is moving with respect to the Moon

If we are seeing different sides of the light and dark part of the Moon point upwards and downwards due to perspective, the phases can be illustrated as in the below diagram.

The phases can be illustrated without regard to the Moon tilt illusion (EDIT - but you have to realise that the inner ring of Moons show how it looks from that viewpoint, from above, and that the outer ring shows how the Moon would appear to an idealised observer, on top of the Earth, midway between E1 and E5. Anyone anywhere else will see it differently.)

An observer located at E1 observes the Moon traveling between points M8, M1, and M2 due to its movement.

No, absolutely not. The Moon moves across the sky for the observer due to Earth's rotation.

....it would suggest that observers at points E8 and E6 at the same moment in time should see different sides of the Full Moon (M7).

Why?

Yet, we know that all observers see a Full Moon at once. How can this be reconciled in the Round Earth Theory of extreme perspective changes that is invoked to explain the Moon Tilt Illusion?

It could be reconciled by you taking a course in Astronomy (EDIT or modelling it with a desktop, educational globe). Once again, you appear unable to reconcile a 2D drawing, from a top-down viewpoint, with what happens in 3D.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 20, 2020, 08:45:24 PM
By invoking extreme perspective effects to explain the Moon Tilt Illusion different observers would see different sides of the Moon, or different sides of the Moon's day and night.

The general RE answer to the Moon Tilt Illusion is that it's a perspective effect, like something traveling along the ceiling of a hallway.

(https://i.imgur.com/HpqOH0n.png)

Observer A would have a different view of the Rubix Cube positions than Observer B.

If an Oberver at E1 is viewing the Moon M8, there is a different view than the overhead view. So Observer E8 must have a different view of the Full Moon than Observers E7 and E6.


(https://i.imgur.com/Jg6BIux.png)

Please explain this with the RE theory of extreme perspective effects.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: stack on March 20, 2020, 08:47:21 PM
By invoking extreme perspective effects to explain the Moon Tilt Illusion different observers would see different sides of the Moon, or different sides of the Moon's day and night.

The general RE answer to the Moon Tilt Illusion is that it's a perspective effect, like something traveling up and down the ceiling of a hallway.

(https://i.imgur.com/HpqOH0n.png)

Observer A would have a different view of the Rubix Cube positions than Observer B.

If an Oberver at E1 is viewing the Moon at M8, there is a different view than the overhead view. So Observer E8 must have a different view of the Moon than E7.


(https://i.imgur.com/Jg6BIux.png)

Please explain this with the RE theory of extreme perspective effects.

Why are you using one object (Rubik's Cube) to represent two discreet objects? The Cube on the left is the Moon. The Cube on the right is the Sun.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 20, 2020, 08:51:59 PM
If an Observer at E1 is viewing the Moon at M8, there is a different view than the overhead view.

Yes, the observer will see the Moon as in the outside ring, IF he is aligned with the "top" of the Earth, perpendicular to the Earth-Sun plane. If he is elsewhere on Earth, this view will vary according to latitude.


So Observer E8 must have a different view of the Moon than Observers E7 and E6.

Not a valid comparison. The time between the Moon moving from M8 to M7 is approx 3.5 days, whereas an observer on Earth would move from E1 to E8 in 3 hours

Please explain this with the RE theory of extreme perspective effects.

Not until you show that you understand what you're trying to debunk

EDIT - Forget the Rubiks Cube, get a desktop educational globe, and model it in 3D
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on March 20, 2020, 09:37:26 PM
The Moon tilt illusion is just that - an illusion. It happens because the Sun is much further away from us than the Moon.

You can get the exact same "tilt" on a Ping-Pong ball when the Moon is visible during the day : https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-resources/what-are-the-phases-of-the-moon/

The phases of the Moon, and its apparent movement, are perfectly explained in a round earth model. As well as the apparent movement of the rest of the night sky, which is almost identical. As well as the fact that we see different stars at different latitudes. I still have to see a flat earth model that could be compatible with what we see in the skies, let alone explain it.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 20, 2020, 10:28:22 PM
Tom; visualise the positions of Earth, Moon and Sun at three points of a Scalene Triangle

(https://euston96.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Scalene-triangle-300x147.png)

Earth and Moon are at the ends of side C, with the sun at the point where sides A and B meet, with A and B proportionally far longer than this illustration.

Can you see that the face of the Moon, aligned with side A toward the Sun, might look as though it is pointing to a different place in the sky than your view along side B, especially if you are not aligned with the plane of the triangle?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: model 29 on March 21, 2020, 03:23:50 AM
The moon 'tilt' throughout the night is due to an observer's latitude.  For example, someone at 45n will 'tilt' from moonrise to moonset 90 degrees.  A different face will not be seen since the moon is 240k miles away and Earth's diameter is only about 7.9k miles.

Or then there's the 'perspective tilt', as demonstrated with the hallway demonstrations, which as been explained to death.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 21, 2020, 08:21:38 PM
So far I see that this issue is unable to be answered.

model 29 says that the bodies are too far away to turn to perspective. That's right. The Moon should tilt less than two degrees. (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Difference_in_Position_Diagram) Perspective changes in the RE system should be nearly nil.

model29's answer also says that things are tilted to the extreme perspective effect but we don't see different sides because it's too far away. How can there be extreme perspective changes without a changing of orientation?

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/8/86/Pencil-Tilt-Vertical.gif)

At what distance do the pencils have to be from us in order for them to be tilted upwards to 45 degrees without us seeing the undersides?

One can see that this sentiment is incorrect. It is not possible to see the pencils tilt upwards without also seeing the underside. In order for something to tilt by perspective, we must see different sides of an object. Claiming that "it's too far" for perspective changes to orientation to occur, while simultaneously claiming extreme perspective effects are occurring as to cause it to be tilted, is contradictory.

This whole excuse of perspective as an explanation to this anomaly is looking more and more like baloney. There must be signs that a perspective effects is occurring, and there are not. Is there a better answer?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: model 29 on March 21, 2020, 08:56:12 PM
It seems Tom, that you forgot the moon is tidally locked so the same face always faces us. 
Again, 240k miles. 
Also again, an observer's view of the moon 'tilts' (the amount and rate depends on latitude) throughout the night.  The same can be seen of the sun if using a solar filter and sunspots are visible.  Tilt a camera to the left, take a picture of a an object, tilt the camera to the right, take a picture of the same object, and compare the images.  Do you see a different face of the object, or the same face just tilted?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 21, 2020, 09:16:29 PM
Quote
It seems Tom, that you forgot the moon is tidally locked so the same face always faces us.

If the Moon's face is tidally locked to us then it won't tilt at any position around the observer:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/9/9b/Pencil-perspective.png)

So how, then, does it tilt to the observer?

The general response to this is to claim that the physical Moon is not tilting, but that it is only the Moon's day and night that tilts to perspective. This is also incorrect, for the same reasons previously discussed, since one would have to see different parts of the Moon's day and night:

(https://i.imgur.com/lXarpO6.png)

The same issue occurs. The Moon Phase diagram I provided previously shows that different observers would have to be viewing different parts of the Full Moon.

So, how does this work with "extreme perspective" as the answer to this?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: model 29 on March 21, 2020, 10:14:17 PM
Given the distances of the moon as they pertain to the globe, how perspective works (why do you keep saying "extreme" perspective?), and how an observer's view orientation changes based on latitude on a rotating globe from moonrise to set, your question has been answered Tom.  All you have to do now is understand it.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 22, 2020, 12:29:28 AM
If the Moon's face is tidally locked to us then it won't tilt at any position around the observer:

Your diagram is a 2D representation, and takes no account of the observer being on any part of the Earth other than an idealised equatorial point, as well as not even attempting to model in 3D.

Get a globe, place a model Moon and Sun in their correct positions, and photograph the elements from the viewpoint of a real-world observer.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 22, 2020, 01:05:56 AM
Given the distances of the moon as they pertain to the globe, how perspective works (why do you keep saying "extreme" perspective?), and how an observer's view orientation changes based on latitude on a rotating globe from moonrise to set, your question has been answered Tom.  All you have to do now is understand it.

I see that you are saying that the Moon is too far in RET for such perspective effects to occur. That's right. The theory that perspective effects are causing the Moon Tilt Illusion is wrong.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: model 29 on March 22, 2020, 02:39:43 AM
I see that you are saying that the Moon is too far in RET for such perspective effects to occur.
No, I am not.
Quote
That's right. The theory that perspective effects are causing the Moon Tilt Illusion is wrong.
No, it is not.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: ChrisTP on March 22, 2020, 08:16:39 AM
Tom, you’ve demonstrated plenty of times now that you really do not understand optics and perspective, do you think maybe you take a step back and try to think critically before exclaiming how wrong "RE people" are about this? Learn a 3d application and model a flat earth system between the sun, moon and earth and see if you can replicate reality and take screenshots showing us how accurate the flat earth is. When you fail at that, try modelling the mainstream system with the globe earth, sun and moon. I recommend blender since it’s free.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on March 22, 2020, 08:31:37 AM
The general response to this is to claim that the physical Moon is not tilting, but that it is only the Moon's day and night that tilts to perspective. This is also incorrect, for the same reasons previously discussed, since one would have to see different parts of the Moon's day and night:

(https://i.imgur.com/lXarpO6.png)

The same issue occurs. The Moon Phase diagram I provided previously shows that different observers would have to be viewing different parts of the Full Moon.

The only thing your previous diagram shows is that you have not understood the round Earth model. As previously mentioned, the Moon appears to move in the sky mostly because of the Earth's rotation, not of its own movement : it orbits the Earth in about 4 weeks. The orbit of the Moon around the Earth is what causes phases.

For example, let's say the Moon is in M1. E8 E1 and E2 see a full quarter, E3 and E7 see a Moon that is rising or setting. As the Earth spins, everyone will see the Moon rise and set - but they will all see a first quarter, only slightly fuller as time goes by and the Moon moves on its orbit. The Moon is far enough for everyone to see the same side, but the orientation will depend on the latitude.

A few days later, the Moon is in M8, and the same happens : everyone sees a waxing gibbous rise and set. Etc.

The so-called "tilt" is not involved to explain the phases. It's not even really a tilt : just the illusion of a tilt.

Quote
So, how does this work with "extreme perspective" as the answer to this?

It's still just perspective. And it only has to account for the angle of the terminator, not the phases. I'm not sure what "extreme" perspective is, or if it even means anything, or if the word "extreme" is just there for dramatic effect. Maybe this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2gTSjoEExc) was already mentioned, but I think it explains quite well what is going on. Perspective can play some tricks on our brains.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 22, 2020, 02:16:37 PM
No, that video does not explain it.

How can the tilting seen be caused by perspective without us also seeing my different sides of an object? How can a pencil or a Rubix Cube be tilted upwards without us seeing different sides of it? This is simple geometry. In order for tilting to be caused by perspective we must see a shifting in orientation.

It is apparent that some people will be under the Moon, while others are at another angle and see it low in the sky to their left or right, and must have different perspective views. So those people must see different sides of it.

This matter is merely an attempted excuse without much thought put into it. None of what you have posted provides an explanation at all. Perspective is not a working explanation to explain this, and assumes that the Moon changes orientation.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 22, 2020, 02:52:29 PM
It is apparent that some people will be under the Moon, while others are at another angle and see it low in the sky to their left or right, and must have different perspective views. So those people must see different sides of it.

No, no, no. You don't appreciate how far away it is, and how little the variance in observers' locations is compared to that distance.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Triangle.Isosceles.svg/200px-Triangle.Isosceles.svg.png)

Moon at apex, height = 240k miles
Maximum distance between observers = base of approx 8k miles

Draw it out to scale. 8mm base, 24cm height.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 22, 2020, 03:06:36 PM
We already have the math with the actual RE distances. (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Difference_in_Position_Diagram)

I agree that things should not turn much to persoective. The Moon would actually turn negligibly to perspective in RE, less than 2 degrees.

So how can you get it to turn 45 degrees to perspective, without seeing different sides of the Moon's day and night?

How can a pencil or a Rubix Cube tilt to perspective without seeing different sides of it?

You flatly refuse to answer.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 22, 2020, 03:15:42 PM
You flatly refuse to answer.

Fully one-quarter of the replies here have been from me. Your statement does not compute.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 22, 2020, 03:18:51 PM
So how can you get it to turn 45 degrees to perspective, without seeing different sides of the Moon's day and night?

By your movement on the Earth's surface, dependent on the axial tilt at the time of year, the Moon's current position with respect to the ecliptic plane, and on the latitude of your observation point.

Again - model it for yourself in 3D with model Earth and Moon. Orient a camera with the orientation of an observer on the surface of your model Earth.   

Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on March 22, 2020, 06:22:44 PM
We already have the math with the actual RE distances. (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Difference_in_Position_Diagram)

I agree that things should not turn much to persoective. The Moon would actually turn negligibly to perspective in RE, less than 2 degrees.

So how can you get it to turn 45 degrees to perspective, without seeing different sides of the Moon's day and night?

How can a pencil or a Rubix Cube tilt to perspective without seeing different sides of it?

You flatly refuse to answer.

You fail to understand that there is not really a "tilt". The Moon appears exactly the way it's supposed to appear. You intuitively expect to be able to draw a straight line from the Moon to the position of the Sun in the sky, perpendicular to the terminator. But this expectation, albeit intuitive, is false. Because of perspective.

How could we explain a tilt when it's not there?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: model 29 on March 23, 2020, 05:29:15 PM
Tom, are you confused about the moon's phase appearing to not line up with the sun?  Because this has been explained before and you admitted to understanding it.

Or, are you confused about the face of the moon appearing to rotate throughout the evening?  Because this has also been explained in this thread.

Or, are you confused about both and don't know how to differentiate between the answers being given?

It is apparent that some people will be under the Moon, while others are at another angle and see it low in the sky to their left or right, and must have different perspective views. So those people must see different sides of it.
As would happen with a small local moon a couple thousand miles up, and we do not see this, which disproves flat Earth.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 23, 2020, 05:50:04 PM
You fail to understand that there is not really a "tilt". The Moon appears exactly the way it's supposed to appear. You intuitively expect to be able to draw a straight line from the Moon to the position of the Sun in the sky, perpendicular to the terminator. But this expectation, albeit intuitive, is false. Because of perspective.
Actually, far be it from me to argue with one of my RE brethren, but actually the moon tilt illusion is, as the name suggests, an illusion.#
When you observe the effect you can stretch a piece of string from the moon, perpendicular to the terminator, and you'll see that contrary to the way it appears there is a straight line between the moon and sun
It's well explained in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2gTSjoEExc

It's a failure of perception caused by the lack of context when observing objects that far away and far apart.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on March 23, 2020, 06:21:45 PM
You fail to understand that there is not really a "tilt". The Moon appears exactly the way it's supposed to appear. You intuitively expect to be able to draw a straight line from the Moon to the position of the Sun in the sky, perpendicular to the terminator. But this expectation, albeit intuitive, is false. Because of perspective.
Actually, far be it from me to argue with one of my RE brethren, but actually the moon tilt illusion is, as the name suggests, an illusion.#
When you observe the effect you can stretch a piece of string from the moon, perpendicular to the terminator, and you'll see that contrary to the way it appears there is a straight line between the moon and sun

Indeed, by "straight line" I meant a line that appears straight on a 2d projection such as a photograph.

The important point being that there is no need to explain how a tilt happens, because there is no tilt - as you rightly said, it's just the illusion of a tilt.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: inquisitive on March 25, 2020, 02:55:20 PM
Why does Tom have an obsession with perspective? He has still not explained how he would measure the size and shape of the earth.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 27, 2020, 08:19:28 PM
None of the explanations above, or the video above, tell us how something can tilt to perspective without us seeing different sides of it. Distance has nothing to do with it. It will occur at all scales.

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/32/Infinite-Rubix.png)

Applying the same to the Moon's day and night, we see that the observation of the Moon at 45 degrees is the same at all distances:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/d/d7/Infinite-Moon.png)

So again, why don't different observers see different sides of the Full Moon?

(https://i.imgur.com/Jg6BIux.png)

E8, E7, and E6 should all see different parts of the Moon's day and night, as they are looking at Moon at different angles. They should see different parts of the Full Moon.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on March 27, 2020, 09:56:39 PM
None of the explanations above, or the video above, tell us how something can tilt to perspective without us seeing different sides of it. Distance has nothing to do with it. It will occur at all scales.

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/32/Infinite-Rubix.png)

I honestly can't tell what you are trying to prove with your Rubik's cubes lines, and how it relates to the Moon tilt illusion. Which is just that: an illusion. There is no problem with the way the Moon appears to us in the night sky.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 28, 2020, 03:38:57 PM
None of the explanations above, or the video above, tell us how something can tilt to perspective
I don’t think the tilt is because of perspective.
Not in the same way that crepuscular rays appearing to emanate from a source is because of perspective.

The moon tilt illusion is...well, an illusion. It’s a failure of perception, just like in the video I posted the photo of the 3 cars is. We are used to things getting smaller as they get further away, if they don’t then our brain tries to understand what’s going on and we perceive the cars as getting bigger.

With the moon tilt illusion we perceive that the terminator points in a different direction to where the sun is. It looks like the line perpendicular to the terminator points upwards, but if you stretch string out in that direction you find it does indeed point at the sun.

Our brains often need context to make sense of things and with that missing we can perceive things incorrectly. That is what causes this illusion.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 28, 2020, 05:12:31 PM
Distance has nothing to do with it. It will occur at all scales.

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/32/Infinite-Rubix.png)

So, if distance has nothing to do with it, then pick a distance and illustrate that only, rather than placing a selection of dummy Moons at varying distances.

Note that the observer CANNOT see a 90 and a 45 Moon at the same time. In reality, the two will be separated by 3.5 days approx., and the phase will be consistent with that time difference, every time, month after month.

Your illustration shows both, but they cannot occur simultaneously


Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 28, 2020, 05:15:05 PM
Applying the same to the Moon's day and night, we see that the observation of the Moon at 45 degrees is the same at all distances:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/d/d7/Infinite-Moon.png)

So again, why don't different observers see different sides of the Full Moon?

What has the full Moon got to do with this illustration? But ...

Why? The different observers are not far enough apart.



(https://i.imgur.com/Jg6BIux.png)

E8, E7, and E6 should all see different parts of the Moon's day and night, as they are looking at Moon at different angles. They should see different parts of the Full Moon.

There is no "day and night" of the Moon when it is in Full Moon phase. But...

The diagram is not to scale. If it were, you would see that the movement of observer(s) between E6 and E8 would not be enough to give them a view of "different parts" of it ....
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 28, 2020, 06:18:56 PM
Tom; conventional wisdom holds that the movement of observers on Earth is appreciably faster, in rotational terms, than the movement of the Moon, so your diagrams which show a Moon moving around the Earth are misplaced;

(https://i.imgur.com/RKSv3Em.jpg)
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on March 28, 2020, 06:38:22 PM
Interestingly, Tom posted then removed this diagram:
(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/8/87/Moon_perspective_scale.png)

Maybe because it could be used to show that the actual angle difference between the blue and red lines is quite small?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 29, 2020, 01:52:09 AM
According to the extreme perspective changes, there is a different view of the Moon when it is overhead, versus at a 45 degree angle.

For the Full Moon:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/32/Infinite-Moon-Full.png)

The view at 45 degrees shows a Moon which is shifted in orientation, and tilted upwards or downwards from the overhead view, as the perspective changes demand.

Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/b/b1/Full_Moon_perspective_lines_diagram.png)

The overhead Full Moon for the Red Observer will be shifted in perspective when viewed at 45 degrees, turning into a Gibbous Moon.

The overhead Gibbous Moon for the Blue Observer will be shifted in perspective when viewed at 45 degrees, turning into a Full Moon.

Q1. If there is a difference in Moon phase when viewed at 90 degrees and 45 degrees for each observer due perspective changes, how can both observers, each with their own personal perspective, view the same Moon with the same phase at the same time?

Q2. Further, if the observer moves from one position to the next, it would suggest that the phase would change, as the observer is observing the Moon at 90 or 45 degrees. A rotating earth would have observers moving from one position to the next.

Please show us a working system which incorporates these extreme perspective effects.

Even if we abandon the idea that there are two observers with their own personal perspective and say that the Earth as a whole is One Observer, and the Moon is shifting in perspective at it moves around the Earth, the Earth is still rotating faster than the Moon is moving, causing the Moon to be 90 degrees overhead or 45 degrees overhead over a span of hours.

Once again, please show us a working system which can get these extreme perspective effects working in a coherent system.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: stack on March 29, 2020, 02:13:34 AM
According to the extreme perspective changes, there is a different view of the Moon when it is overhead, versus at a 45 degree angle.

For the Full Moon:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/32/Infinite-Moon-Full.png)

The view at 45 degrees shows a Moon which is shifted in orientation, as the perspective changes demand.

Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/b/b1/Full_Moon_perspective_lines_diagram.png)

The overhead Full Moon for the Red Observer will be shifted in perspective when viewed at 45 degrees, turning into a Gibbous Moon.

The overhead Gibbous Moon for the Blue Observer will be shifted in perspective when viewed at 45 degrees, turning into a Full Moon.

Q1. If there is a difference in Moon phase when viewed at 90 degrees and 45 degrees for each observer due perspective changes, how can both observers view the same Moon with the same phase at the same time?

Q2. Further, if the observer moves from one position to the next, it would suggest that the phase would change, as the observer is observing the Moon at 90 or 45 degrees. A rotating earth would have observers moving from one position to the next.

Please show us a working system which incorporates these extreme perspective effects.

Even if we abandon the idea that there are two observers with their own perspective lines and say that the Earth as a whole is One Observer, and the Moon is shifting in perspective at it moves around the Earth, the Earth is still rotating faster than the Moon is moving, causing the Moon to be 90 degrees overhead or 45 degrees overhead over a span of hours.

Once again, please show us a working system which can get these extreme perspective effects working in a coherent system.

It's the same as the flat earth's coherent system. Wherein lies the problem?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: model 29 on March 29, 2020, 06:07:03 AM
Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/b/b1/Full_Moon_perspective_lines_diagram.png)
Not quite to scale, but close.  Also, there is a 4 day difference between what the red and blue observers see.  The moon isn't in two different locations at the same time.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 29, 2020, 07:22:29 AM
Right. I’ve spent ages trying to understand what your confusion is here but I think I finally have.

According to the extreme perspective changes, there is a different view of the Moon when it is overhead, versus at a 45 degree angle.

I don’t know what you mean by “extreme”. As the moon orbits us then yes, we see different phases because of the way it is lit. Although note that because of the tidal locking the moon rotated as is orbits such that we always see the same face.

This image:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/32/Infinite-Moon-Full.png)

Shows two different moons at two different points in its orbit around the earth. You have shown one observer looking at two different moons.

Quote
Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees

But...you’ve shown two moons in that image too, as if red and blue are looking at two different moons! They are not.
The diagram Great A’Tuin did is a better representation of the reality. And the important angle is the one at which the red and blue lines meet at the moon.
THAT is what determines whether red and blue see different things. The fact they don’t is good evidence for a distant moon.
Were the moon as close as in your model red and blue would indeed see different things.

So the answer to Q1 is simply that there isn’t a difference in moon phase when two observers look at a single distant moon.
They would see different phases if they were looking at two different moons as in your diagrams although they would both see both moons.
I think that’s the answer to both questions.

Dude, this is you once again demonstrating that you do not understand things well. You don’t understand the model you claim can’t work.

A question for you is if the moon is close then why do we all see the same phase and face of it? By your own logic, we should not. It would only be an issue in RE if the two observers were looking at two different moons as you have inexplicably drawn. In reality we all look at the same moon and because it is distant we see the same thing, albeit the other way round in thr Southern Hemisphere.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on March 29, 2020, 08:23:05 AM

But...you’ve shown two moons in that image too, as if red and blue are looking at two different moons! They are not.
The diagram Great A’Tuin did is a better representation of the reality. And the important angle is the one at which the red and blue lines meet at the moon.


I don't want to take undue credit, the diagram is Tom's (https://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=File:Moon_perspective_scale.png&action=history). He included it in an earlier version of his post then edited it out.

Still, we can only try to explain how it works based on how it actually works, not based on Tom's misconceptions of how it works.

So, let's help Tom understand how Moon phases actually work. Maybe with this simulation: https://pbslm-contrib.s3.amazonaws.com/WGBH/buac19/buac19-int-earthsunmoon35model/index.html
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on March 29, 2020, 10:39:25 AM
According to the extreme perspective changes, there is a different view of the Moon when it is overhead, versus at a 45 degree angle.

No, this is simply according to the textbook definition of how the Moon orbits the Earth. It shows a different phase when at 90 degrees to the Earth-Sun axis than when it is at 45. But there's approx 3.5 days between each.

For the Full Moon:
IMG
The view at 45 degrees shows a Moon which is shifted in orientation, and tilted upwards or downwards from the overhead view, as the perspective changes demand.

That's NOT a "full Moon".  There's also approximately 3.5 days between any single observer seeing the first phase, and then the other. The Moon cannot be in two places at once.


Here is a to-scale diagram of the Earth-Moon system. There are two observers, Red and Blue. When one viewer views the Moon overhead, the other is viewing it at 45 degrees:
IMG

NO. Each observer will see the first phase of the Moon at one time, THEN, 3.5 days or so later, they will see it in its second phase



Q1. If there is a difference in Moon phase when viewed at 90 degrees and 45 degrees for each observer due perspective changes, how can both observers, each with their own personal perspective, view the same Moon with the same phase at the same time?

There is no significant difference in the Moon phase as it moves across an observer's sky on any given day or night.

Q2. Further, if the observer moves from one position to the next, it would suggest that the phase would change, as the observer is observing the Moon at 90 or 45 degrees. A rotating earth would have observers moving from one position to the next.

NO. The phase changes only to the extent of the few degrees I showed above, which for the observer moving on the face of the Earth, viewing with the naked eye, on any one day or night, will be no visible change at all. Please refer to my earlier post

Even if we abandon the idea that there are two observers with their own personal perspective and say that the Earth as a whole is One Observer, and the Moon is shifting in perspective at it moves around the Earth, the Earth is still rotating faster than the Moon is moving, causing the Moon to be 90 degrees overhead or 45 degrees overhead over a span of hours.

If the Earth as a whole is "one observer", then it's rotational rate does not matter.

However, in actuality, the Moon has not moved to any significant extent in that time, so it still has essentially the same face illuminated by the sun. The same phase.

Once again, please show us a working system which can get these extreme perspective effects working in a coherent system.

Shown you that already. You were shown it in the previous thread wherein you raised the "moon tilt illusion". This isn't our first rodeo on this topic.

(https://i.imgur.com/RKSv3Em.jpg)

Once again - in the time that a single observer takes to move from E1 to E2, the Moon moves from the right-hand dotted line of sight to the left-hand one.

No significant change in phase. No 45 degree movement of the Moon. Just a few degrees in its orbit. Meanwhile, the observer on Earth has seen the Moon go from directly overhead to being on their horizon.

Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on March 29, 2020, 12:18:59 PM
So, let's help Tom understand how Moon phases actually work. Maybe with this simulation: https://pbslm-contrib.s3.amazonaws.com/WGBH/buac19/buac19-int-earthsunmoon35model/index.html

An interesting experiment with this simulation: move forward 7 days and 6 hours to see a first quarter right overhead. The terminator appears to be perfectly vertical, which is what we expect. The Sun appears on the horizon, setting, which is also what we expect. Of course this is a very simplified model with no Earth tilt or latitudes, but it's enough for my point.

Does the "lit" side of the Moon point at the Sun? Absolutely.

Does it point at the horizon, where we see the sunset? No. It's not pointing downwards and has no reason to.

Is there a discrepancy? No, just the illusion of a discrepancy.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: BRrollin on April 17, 2020, 08:29:53 PM
Is there an easier way to discuss this issue in a way everyone can understand? If there is anybody here who lives in the Southern hemisphere, we could just compare our own pictures of the moon. Wouldn't this help determine whether there is a perspective effect or not? Because if I get this flat earth idea, then we would see different pictures, from seeing different "sides" of the moon. In a round earth, we would see the same picture upside down.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: inquisitive on April 17, 2020, 09:14:45 PM
Is there an easier way to discuss this issue in a way everyone can understand? If there is anybody here who lives in the Southern hemisphere, we could just compare our own pictures of the moon. Wouldn't this help determine whether there is a perspective effect or not? Because if I get this flat earth idea, then we would see different pictures, from seeing different "sides" of the moon. In a round earth, we would see the same picture upside down.
The word perspective has a meaning and nothing to do with how Tom uses it.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: BRrollin on April 17, 2020, 09:22:44 PM
Is there an easier way to discuss this issue in a way everyone can understand? If there is anybody here who lives in the Southern hemisphere, we could just compare our own pictures of the moon. Wouldn't this help determine whether there is a perspective effect or not? Because if I get this flat earth idea, then we would see different pictures, from seeing different "sides" of the moon. In a round earth, we would see the same picture upside down.
The word perspective has a meaning and nothing to do with how Tom uses it.

I’m just trying to help move things in useful direction. After a while, it all starts to look like arguing over things most of us don’t know.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: inquisitive on June 01, 2020, 09:53:08 AM
Is there an easier way to discuss this issue in a way everyone can understand? If there is anybody here who lives in the Southern hemisphere, we could just compare our own pictures of the moon. Wouldn't this help determine whether there is a perspective effect or not? Because if I get this flat earth idea, then we would see different pictures, from seeing different "sides" of the moon. In a round earth, we would see the same picture upside down.
The word perspective has a meaning and nothing to do with how Tom uses it.

I’m just trying to help move things in useful direction. After a while, it all starts to look like arguing over things most of us don’t know.
Need to find some people who do know.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Zack Bimmel on June 07, 2020, 01:01:38 AM
Please let me try to clarify, from the point of view of a RE person, a few questions raised in this thread. And sorry for the length of my post. Please enjoy anyway.

1. It is claimed that observers at different locations on earth should see different sides of the spherical moon depending on their respective location. That statement is correct. But if any imaginable distance on earth (like its diameter) is small in comparison to the distance moon-earth the effect is hardly noticeable to the naked eye. Diameter of earth 12,740 km, distance earth-moon 384,400 km (average) , ratio of 30. You can verify this effect by looking at a building head-on but from far away. Moving side-wise by a few feet will not reveal in any noticeable way one of the sides of the building particularly when the building is round.

2. We always see only one side of the moon, called the near-side. That is correct in very good approximation. The reason is that the moon is tidally locked which is a short way of saying that the moon rotates around its own axis exactly once during a complete orbit around earth. Pluto and its moon Charon are a more advanced example thereof. They both show each other only their respective near side.

3. During the course of the night the image of the moon including moon phase seems to rotate. "seems" is the keyword. It is actually you whose horizontal plane is changing its orientation with respect to the moon. Reason : earth is spherical in shape and rotates around an axis. You could clarify that to yourself in the following way :
On a piece of paper draw a nice circle and then add a vertical line through the center of the circle. This is a crude presentation of the spherical earth with the straight line representing earth's axis. Mark the north pole at the top. Now add the equator - a horizontal line again through the circle's center. Lastly mark three points at identical distance from the equator, one on the axis and the other two on the circle on opposite sides. One could say that these three points are at the same latitude. In this scenario your face is now going to represent the moon and to define its angular orientation we consider the line connecting your eyes. In the following I will call your, personal, left eye the moon's left eye. Now imagine an observer on your sketch of earth looking at the moon, the observer being situated at the point on the circle to the left of the axis. With the known direction of earth's rotation an observer at this point would see the moon rising with the "moon's" left eye well above the horizon in comparison to its right eye. Some 6 hours later this observer would be located at your mark on earth's axis. The "moon's" eyes appear now at equal height. The moon seems to have rotated !!! I leave it up to you to explore what our fictitious observer will see additional 6 hours later when the moon is setting.     

4. Moon-tilt Illusion. How I hate the word illusion in this discussion. If you happen to look at the moon other than at full or new moon you see the day/night terminator on the moon's surface giving rise to what we call the moon's phases. There is no illusion nor distortion nor rotation involved in the image you are seeing. None whatsoever. You also see correctly that the line connecting the two "horns" where the terminator meets moon's perimeter is inclined most of the time with respect to your vertical. Actually, if you know enough math you can derive an equation for the tilt of this line given the position of moon and sun in the sky in terms of azimuth and elevation angle.
Trouble arises when you want to draw the line the light follows when it travels from the sun to the moon. Except for a very special circumstance drawing a straight line means you commit a serious error !!! Let me continue with a statement : If we were able to see light travel from the sun to the moon the light would follow a curved path as seen from an observer on earth. This phenomena is not restricted to the sun-moon problem but very general in nature.

So let's bring it down to earth.

Imagine you are standing on a big level field - it is pitch dark and all you can see is five very small lights which are NOT moving. Because of the total darkness you don't have any depth perception. You also have no knowledge about the actual brightness of each light; one might be actually very bright but far away, the next one very dim but close by. So, you do what astronomers do when measuring the positions of objects in space, you measure azimuth and elevation angle. Here are the numbers you measured, assigning 0 deg azimuth to the far left light and 90 deg azimuth for the far right light (you will be able to verify these numbers yourself shortly) :

Light  azimuth [deg]  elevation [deg]
 1       0.00             15.00
 2      18.43             18.72
 3      45.00             20.75
 4      71.57             18.72
 5      90.00             15.00

According to these numbers, if you let your outstretched arm go smoothly from the far left to the far right light you would trace out a nice arc in the night sky reaching the highest point at the center light. 


The big surprise comes the next morning when you revisit the field to complement what you have seen the night before. You discover the following : from where you were standing you had looked at five poles with little tiny lights on top. The center post ( light # 3) is exactly 100 meters away from you. The posts are located along a line perpendicular to the line from you to the center post. The posts are equally spaced, 25 m apart and exactly of the same height as verified with a laser beam going from the right most to the left most post just grazing all five light bulbs. Of course, if you could have seen the laser light at night it would have followed the nice arc your outstretched arm followed.

With this new information, your calculator and knowledge of trigonometry you can now not only calculate the height of the posts (quite high I might add) but also verify the numbers in the above table.

Bottom line : The path of light traveling in a straight line from the far right to the far left post (the above mentioned laser) should be drawn as an arc in the night sky. Drawing now an analogy to the sun-light-moon problem : If you climb up on one of the intermediate posts you are putting yourself in the same position of earth being located between sun and moon simulating a lunar eclipse. If you move a little bit to the side or up/down so that the light can pass you by we have the situation of a full moon. Yikes, where is the sun when you look at a full moon high in the sky  ?

Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Cocopuff on July 07, 2020, 05:00:21 AM
The problem with your model is it is using 2D to try to explain a 3D phenomenon.  You suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect where you think you know a significant amount about astronomy when you have never actually taken any formal course or discussed this with someone who has. 

There is a path in the sky that the moon and the planets traverse though called the ecliptic. They all vary somewhat above or below this by a few degrees, but they all are pretty close to following this line all year long.   If you took a picture of the moon in the sky from rise to set, it will follow that path. Depending on the time of year and your lattitude, this path will change.  If you take a picture of the moon in the sky and draw a straight line through the moon of where this pathway is (the ecliptic line) the line will point directly where the sunlight is coming from.  But since you are on a globe, it appears to have tilt. 

I have a question for you: while you are looking at the moon in the sky, try watching the ISS in the sky.  You can find predicted paths on Heavens Above.com.  Flat Earthers love to say "open your eyes" to globers, but I have not had a flat farther to date take me up on this simple task which makes me wonder if you are actually putting into practice the "open your eyes" mantra.  Pick a viewing date/time where the ISS passes through or by a familiar object in the sky, like the moon or a planet or constellation.  After you see the ISS pass by/through this object at the exact second it is predicted to do so, reply with your explanation how anything in the atmosphere would have that ability to travel through the sky with such precision such that YOU could see it do so any particular night you happened to look up in the sky?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 07, 2020, 05:46:48 PM
The explanation for the Moon Tilt Illusion (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion) in RE is an effect of perspective.

When viewing the Moon Tilt Illusion, the Moon will often be tilted upwards:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/6/61/Moon_Tilt_Illusion.png/900px-Moon_Tilt_Illusion.png)


It isn't really an illusion. If you know where the sun is in relation to the moon, you could take a string and hold it perpendicular to the angle the moon appears, and it will line up with the sun, as it should. This is easier to replicate when you can see the moon during the day because then you can see the sun as well, and line it up. If you do it at night, you will need to use an app to gauge roughly where the sun is and it should line right up with it.

The only reason the moon appears to have a tilt away from the sun is because the sun is further than you perceive it to be.

Bobby Shafto demonstrated this in a video a year or two ago (I tried to find it, but many of Bobby's linked images and videos are gone) - Tom, you were part of this debate. He literally held a string perpendicular to the moon (albeit during the day), and ran it out to the horizon and it lined up directly with the sun even though the moon appeared to have a tilt. How would you explain this?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 07, 2020, 10:26:01 PM
https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#String_Experiment

Quote
String Experiment

Along the same lines as the above, we are given reference to "string experiments" in which the direction of the Moon's illuminated portion is able to be connected to the sun with a string.

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/4/4a/String-Experiment.jpg/900px-String-Experiment.jpg) (https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/5/54/String_Experiment_Close.jpg/498px-String_Experiment_Close.jpg)
Credit: Bobby Shafto

It has been argued that the string experiment shows that the bodies do actually point at each other. An illusion of some type is occurring and the string experiment "breaks the illusion," demonstrating that the illuminated portion of the Moon is actually pointing at the Sun. If it was not pointing at the Sun then it would not be possible to hold a straight piece of string along that path.

As a reply to this, consider the following scenario:

    You are laying down on the ground on your back, facing upwards, and at the edges of your vision see the top of a pine tree on one side of your vision, and the top of a cabin on the other. You take out a string and connect them together across your vision. Have you proved that the tree is pointing at the cabin?

If you are laying down on the ground on your back and see the Moon pointing upwards on one side of your vision and see the Sun setting at the horizon on the other, a string connecting the two will no more prove that the Moon is pointing at the Sun than it would prove that a tree is pointing at a cabin. When you lay on your back you can see 190 degrees of space1. Just because an object at one side might be pointing "up" at another object at the other side, it doesn't mean that they are pointing at each other.

When wrapped around the observer, this panoramic view of the moon tilt illusion:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/1/10/Moon-Tilt-Fishbowl-1.png)

Turns into this:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/0/0a/Moon-Tilt-Fishbowl-2.png/900px-Moon-Tilt-Fishbowl-2.png)

Art Credit: Todd Lockwood

In the above example both the Moon and airplane are on opposite sides of the Sun near point B. The Sun is on the horizon at point A. The Moon and airplane are not actually pointing at the Sun. The string merely connects them two dimensionally across a 'sphere of vision' exactly like the tree-cabin example.

If the airplane was actually pointing at the Sun in the above example, then when looking at the airplane face on, with the Sun on the horizon to your back, you should see the airplane pointed at you and tilted downwards towards the opposite horizon behind you. The same would also apply for the Moon. If the Moon were pointing at the Sun then when you face the Moon its illumined portion should point downwards at the Sun at the horizon behind you, just as an airplane would. Thus, we see that this assertion that the string experiment demonstrates that an illusion is occurring and that bodies are pointing at each other is erroneous. The string experiment may suggest that object positions and straight line paths behave as if they are curving on a dome of some manner, which may provide us with a clue in deciphering the nature of our world, but it does not demonstrate absolute directions of bodies.

A fish-bowl type simulation of the Moon Tilt Illusion can be seen in University of Nebraska-Lincoln's Moon Phases and the Horizon Diagram (http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/lunarcycles/positionsdemonstrator.html) (.swf Archive) - "Provides a method of learning the correlation between the phase of the moon, the time of day, and the position of the moon in the sky."

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/2/21/String-Experiment-3.png/1050px-String-Experiment-3.png)

Footnotes

1 "our eyes sit in the front of our head, allowing us to see about 60 percent of world in front of us with both eyes, at the compromise that we can only see at maximum about 190 degrees around us (Block 1969; Wolfe 2006)" – Human Spatial Navigation, 2018, p.73
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 08, 2020, 01:12:01 AM
https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#String_Experiment

Quote
String Experiment

Along the same lines as the above, we are given reference to "string experiments" in which the direction of the Moon's illuminated portion is able to be connected to the sun with a string.

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/4/4a/String-Experiment.jpg/900px-String-Experiment.jpg) (https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/5/54/String_Experiment_Close.jpg/498px-String_Experiment_Close.jpg)
Credit: Bobby Shafto

It has been argued that the string experiment shows that the bodies do actually point at each other. An illusion of some type is occurring and the string experiment "breaks the illusion," demonstrating that the illuminated portion of the Moon is actually pointing at the Sun. If it was not pointing at the Sun then it would not be possible to hold a straight piece of string along that path.

As a reply to this, consider the following scenario:

    You are laying down on the ground on your back, facing upwards, and at the edges of your vision see the top of a pine tree on one side of your vision, and the top of a cabin on the other. You take out a string and connect them together across your vision. Have you proved that the tree is pointing at the cabin?

If you are laying down on the ground on your back and see the Moon pointing upwards on one side of your vision and see the Sun setting at the horizon on the other, a string connecting the two will no more prove that the Moon is pointing at the Sun than it would prove that a tree is pointing at a cabin. When you lay on your back you can see 190 degrees of space1. Just because an object at one side might be pointing "up" at another object at the other side, it doesn't mean that they are pointing at each other.

When wrapped around the observer, this panoramic view of the moon tilt illusion:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/1/10/Moon-Tilt-Fishbowl-1.png)

Turns into this:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/0/0a/Moon-Tilt-Fishbowl-2.png/900px-Moon-Tilt-Fishbowl-2.png)

Art Credit: Todd Lockwood

In the above example both the Moon and airplane are on opposite sides of the Sun near point B. The Sun is on the horizon at point A. The Moon and airplane are not actually pointing at the Sun. The string merely connects them two dimensionally across a 'sphere of vision' exactly like the tree-cabin example.

If the airplane was actually pointing at the Sun in the above example, then when looking at the airplane face on, with the Sun on the horizon to your back, you should see the airplane pointed at you and tilted downwards towards the opposite horizon behind you. The same would also apply for the Moon. If the Moon were pointing at the Sun then when you face the Moon its illumined portion should point downwards at the Sun at the horizon behind you, just as an airplane would. Thus, we see that this assertion that the string experiment demonstrates that an illusion is occurring and that bodies are pointing at each other is erroneous. The string experiment may suggest that object positions and straight line paths behave as if they are curving on a dome of some manner, which may provide us with a clue in deciphering the nature of our world, but it does not demonstrate absolute directions of bodies.

A fish-bowl type simulation of the Moon Tilt Illusion can be seen in University of Nebraska-Lincoln's Moon Phases and the Horizon Diagram (http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/lunarcycles/positionsdemonstrator.html) (.swf Archive) - "Provides a method of learning the correlation between the phase of the moon, the time of day, and the position of the moon in the sky."

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/2/21/String-Experiment-3.png/1050px-String-Experiment-3.png)

Footnotes

1 "our eyes sit in the front of our head, allowing us to see about 60 percent of world in front of us with both eyes, at the compromise that we can only see at maximum about 190 degrees around us (Block 1969; Wolfe 2006)" – Human Spatial Navigation, 2018, p.73
Thank you, Tom, for providing the links that I was referring to!

You can either believe this to be true or you can believe it to be false. It’s “pure imagination”. - Willy Wonka

Edit:

It is obvious to anyone who understands trigonometry that you can connect a straight line from any single point to any other single point.

What makes this the 'Bobby Shafto' observation (string experiment) differnt, is that the line connecting the dots has a perpendicular relationship with one of the points. That limits where the other point can reside. That is simple trigonometry.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 08, 2020, 05:28:47 PM
I don't see how it would be possible to know how perpendicular your string is to the Moon without some sort of perspective clues.

Consider a green cone perpendicular to the camera:

(https://i.imgur.com/M5a5iHP.png)

When putting up a string against it, it cuts through it horizontally.

Now we stand at a non-perpendicular position:

(https://i.imgur.com/aI5dY3Y.png)

The string still cuts straight through. The only way we know that we are not perpendicular is by the perspective changes apparent in the 3D cone and scene. Otherwise it looks like the string cuts straight through the overall shape of the cone. With the Moon, however, we can't see such changes and visual clues (due to FE-EA theory/RE long distance theory).

Here is a better experiment. The next time you see the Moon Tilt Illusion, turn to look at the Moon so that it is in the center of your vision. Take a string and hold it out arms length, as far from your head as you can, against the Moon, keeping the Moon in the center of your vision. You will see the string shoot off into space:

(https://i.imgur.com/X7RSVxf.png)

While it might be possible to carefully position your string and camera in such a way that the Moon seems to connect to the Sun, simply holding the string as far as you can away from yourself, while keeping the Moon in the center, will show that the string shoots off into space.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 08, 2020, 06:22:42 PM
I don't see how it would be possible to know how perpendicular your string is to the Moon without some sort of perspective clues.

Consider a green cone perpendicular to the camera:

(https://i.imgur.com/M5a5iHP.png)

When putting up a string against it, it cuts through it horizontally.

Now we stand at another non-perpendicular position:

(https://i.imgur.com/ri5hwRM.png)

The string still cuts straight through. The only way we know that we are not perpendicular is by the perspective changes apparent in the 3D cone and scene. Otherwise it looks like the string cuts straight through the overall shape of the cone. With the Moon, however, we can't see such changes and visual clues (due to FE-EA theory/RE long distance theory).

Here is a better experiment. The next time you see the Moon Tilt Illusion, turn to look at the Moon so that it is in the center of your vision. Take a string and hold it out arms length, as far from your head as you can, against the Moon, keeping the Moon in the center of your vision. You will see the string shoot off into space:

(https://i.imgur.com/X7RSVxf.png)

While it might be possible to carefully position your string and camera in such a way that the Moon seems to connect to the Sun, simply holding the string as far as you can away from yourself, while keeping the Moon in the center, will show that the string shoots off into space.

The trouble with your explanation is that you are trying to make a string perpendicular to the cone on two planes. This would require perspective from both planes. We only get to perceive the sun and moon on one plane because the objects are so far away.

Because I can only perceive the sun and moon in a single plane, making the string perpendicular on that plane is all that matters.

We are currently in a waning moon phase, so I should be able to test this out in the next couple days.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 09, 2020, 10:51:57 AM
I don't see how it would be possible to know how perpendicular your string is to the Moon without some sort of perspective clues.

The point about this illusion is that in RET the distant moon is illuminated by an even more distant sun and that is the only source of illumination the moon has. That means if you see the moon and can see its terminator line then the light must be coming from a direction perpendicular to that line.

When the illusion occurs it looks as if the terminator line is pointing up into the sky while the sun is low near the horizon. So it appears that either the moon is being lit in some other way or the light is bending in some strange way.

But, as the name suggests, this is just an illusion. The point of the string is it demonstrates that there is indeed a straight line which goes from the moon, perpendicular to the terminator line, to the sun. That shows it is just an illusion.

You must be familiar with optical illusions. Our brains are easily tricked. This is why the Zetetic method of just relying on your senses is not sufficient alone to determine the truth about the world.

Quote
Here is a better experiment. The next time you see the Moon Tilt Illusion, turn to look at the Moon so that it is in the center of your vision. Take a string and hold it out arms length, as far from your head as you can, against the Moon, keeping the Moon in the center of your vision. You will see the string shoot off into space:

Have you tried this? Because I don't think so.
If the string is angled so it is perpendicular to the terminator then it will point at the sun.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 10, 2020, 04:58:40 PM
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 10, 2020, 08:19:05 PM
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 10, 2020, 08:39:13 PM
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.

I also think it depends on how far you stretch out the string.

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up. If you extend that string further, you will see that it goes up over your head and back across the sky to point directly at the sun. This is of course because as you stretch it out across the sky, you being to create an arc with the string - which is what, I think, Tom is arguing about. However, since we do not care about that two-dimensional perspective (being able to only see it in one dimension), it is perfectly acceptable to let the string do that as long as you keep the 1-dimension perpendicular to the moons shadow.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 10, 2020, 08:51:25 PM
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.

I also think it depends on how far you stretch out the string.

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up. If you extend that string further, you will see that it goes up over your head and back across the sky to point directly at the sun. This is of course because as you stretch it out across the sky, you being to create an arc with the string - which is what, I think, Tom is arguing about. However, since we do not care about that two-dimensional perspective (being able to only see it in one dimension), it is perfectly acceptable to let the string do that as long as you keep the 1-dimension perpendicular to the moons shadow.
The point is you hold the string taut so you don't create an arc with the string, it should be held so it's a straight line.
And yeah, if you only stretch the string out a little way then it probably would look like it isn't going to point at the sun.
The entire point of the experiment is you continue that line and have enough string that it stretches across the sky. Do that and you'll see it does in fact hit the sun. That's the demonstration that the apparent disparity is simply an optical illusion.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 10, 2020, 09:12:02 PM
Yes, I've done that experiment. The string points in a wildly different position. The positioning of the scene looks like the UNL Dept of Astronomy simulation.

Fair enough. And the string was definitely perpendicular to the terminator from the angle you're looking at the string?
'Cos I've done it and it lined up perfectly. Maybe next time you do it you could document the way you're doing it so we can see if you're doing something different.

I also think it depends on how far you stretch out the string.

If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up. If you extend that string further, you will see that it goes up over your head and back across the sky to point directly at the sun. This is of course because as you stretch it out across the sky, you being to create an arc with the string - which is what, I think, Tom is arguing about. However, since we do not care about that two-dimensional perspective (being able to only see it in one dimension), it is perfectly acceptable to let the string do that as long as you keep the 1-dimension perpendicular to the moons shadow.
The point is you hold the string taut so you don't create an arc with the string, it should be held so it's a straight line.
And yeah, if you only stretch the string out a little way then it probably would look like it isn't going to point at the sun.
The entire point of the experiment is you continue that line and have enough string that it stretches across the sky. Do that and you'll see it does in fact hit the sun. That's the demonstration that the apparent disparity is simply an optical illusion.

I am not explaining myself very well, and likely won't be able to without a visual.

The arc that I'm referring to occurs only from the cross plane, which is outside the observers perspective, and only because we are limited to the length of string we can use for an observation. Sorry to muddle up this conversation - I'm in agreement that it does point to the sun. Just trying to figure out how to explain it definitively to someone with an argument such as Tom's cone example.

No matter how many times I try to re-write my explanation it isn't coming out right, so I'm going to leave it for now....



Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 10, 2020, 09:21:45 PM
If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 10, 2020, 09:25:50 PM
If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.

If you have only 1 foot of string, and hold it perpendicular to the moons shadow on your visual plane, it will point up relative to your perspective regardless whether or not it is also pointing at or away from you relative to the 2nd dimension - I'm confused now... why are you now arguing against something you were arguing for just a page ago?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 10, 2020, 09:37:23 PM
If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.

If you have only 1 foot of string, and hold it perpendicular to the moons shadow on your visual plane, it will point up relative to your perspective regardless whether or not it is also pointing at or away from you relative to the 2nd dimension - I'm confused now... why are you now arguing against something you were arguing for just a page ago?

Well, you seem to be admitting that it is possible to get the string to point upwards like in my last diagram.

Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 10, 2020, 10:14:17 PM
If you take 1 foot of string and hold it out, it will of course point up.

Why should it point up? If there was a 1 foot long green arrow floating in your outstretched hand pointing at the Sun behind you at the horizon it would point at the Sun behind you at the horizon.

If you have only 1 foot of string, and hold it perpendicular to the moons shadow on your visual plane, it will point up relative to your perspective regardless whether or not it is also pointing at or away from you relative to the 2nd dimension - I'm confused now... why are you now arguing against something you were arguing for just a page ago?

Well, you seem to be admitting that it is possible to get the string to point upwards like in my last diagram.

Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?

The short answer is it would shoot up into the sky. The reason for this is tied to your cone example. I would like some time to figure out a way to explain what is I’m trying to say so I will leave it at this for now.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on July 10, 2020, 10:39:59 PM
Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?

That would depend.

You, the Moon and the Sun form three points of a triangle. A triangle is a planar figure.

If you look at the Moon, or the Sun, you are looking along this plane of the triangle. You're not looking above or below it.

If, while looking at the Moon, you hold string, rod, or laser point up such that it is perpendicular to the Moon terminator, then any of those will be in alignment with the side (EDIT sides and plane) of the triangle, as viewed from your position behind the string, rod or laser line.

In order for your laser to point at the Sun, you need to hold it broadly parallel to the line (EDIT /side) of the triangle connecting Moon and Sun in order for it to point at the Sun. You could align it to miss the Sun, and it would still look as though it were perpendicular to the terminator from your viewpoint.

Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 10, 2020, 10:48:37 PM
Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?

That would depend.

You, the Moon and the Sun form three points of a triangle. A triangle is a planar figure.

If you look at the Moon, or the Sun, you are looking along this plane of the triangle. You're not looking above or below it.

If, while looking at the Moon, you hold string, rod, or laser point up such that it is perpendicular to the Moon terminator, then any of those will be in alignment with the side of the triangle, as viewed from your position behind the string, rod or laser line.

In order for your laser to point at the Sun, you need to hold it broadly parallel to the line of the triangle connecting Moon and Sun in order for it to point at the Sun. You could align it to miss the Sun, and it would still look as though it were perpendicular to the terminator from your viewpoint.

This is a good explanation of what I am trying (and miserably failing) to say.

Tom, the laser pointer has inspired me as well, so let me attempt to explain it this way:

If you hold the laser pointer out in front of you from a standing position, basically vertical to the ground and parallel to your body, you can line it up perpendicularly to the moons shadow and the laser beam will shoot up into the void of space.

If you angle the laser pointer towards yourself (on the plane of the triangle Tumeni mentioned), and point it up over your head (you might have to lay on the ground and hold the pointer parallel to the ground), you can still line it up to be perpendicular to the moons shadow and it will now point toward the horizon and sun.

This was also demonstrated by your cone example in which you can change the angle on one plane, and still be perpendicular on another plane.

Furthermore, if you can imagine a scenario where this is possible, you can imagine it is POSSIBLE that the sun's light is pointing along that path towards the moon.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 11, 2020, 09:34:42 PM
Say you hold out a laser pointer up against the moon like your short piece of string and get the laser pointer to point upwards. Assuming no atmosphere absorbency, if you could turn it on would its photons broadcast out into to space away from the earth or would they curve around on the celestial sphere and hit the sun on the horizon behind you?
Right. So you're going to have to define what you mean by "upwards". That might sound like a ridiculous request, but the whole point of this illusion is that it only appears that the moon's terminator points upwards. You surely must be familiar with optical illusions, our brains can be easily fooled in certain situations. If you had a laser pointer on a day when this optical illusion occurs and you lined it up with the moon such that the laser shines perpendicular to the moon's terminator then if you could see it the laser line would intersect the sun. I know it doesn't look like it should but that is literally what is meant by an optical illusion.

Let's see if this helps. Here's a row of streetlights.

(https://i.ibb.co/prmvPVK/Street-Lights.jpg)

Because of perspective they get taller as they get nearer to you and so the line made by the light bulbs angles upwards from left to right, yes?
Assuming  the row of lights continues if you turn your head to the right you would see the lights recede into the distance apparently getting smaller and lower as they go. So in that direction the line made by the light bulbs angles upwards from right to left. Agreed?
But what in reality does the line between all those lightbulbs look like? Assuming the lamps are all the same height and the road is straight it's a straight line, it's only perspective that makes it appear to be more of arc.

I think I realised what you've done when investigating this illusion. You simply stretched a bit of string out perpendicular to the terminator but you've only stretched it a short distance, inferred that the short length of string shoots off into space and you haven't stretched the string any further to determine where the line actually continues. Had you done so you'd have realised that it does point to the sun. You say that what you did is a better experiment but it's actually worse. It's worse because you are trying to infer where the line will continue rather than extending the string and finding out where it continues. We are pretty terrible at that sort of thing as demonstrated by the Poggendorff illusion. If you continue the black line through the occluding grey bar, which line is the correct continuance of it.
 
(https://i.ibb.co/TWK9Ynw/Poggendorff1.jpg)

Most people perceive it as the blue line when in fact it is the red which you can easily demonstrate by drawing a contrasting line on top of the black one to see which line continues the straight line:

(https://i.ibb.co/SwHSTBB/Poggendorff2.jpg)

You are inferring the line shoots off into space because that's what it looks like. But that's the exact point of this optical illusion. The only way to find out where the line really goes is to stretch enough string to find out. Do that and you'll see that contrary to appearances the line does indeed hit the sun.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 11, 2020, 10:31:00 PM
Since the Sun is on the horizon behind you, the only way to get a laser pointer to shine at it is if the laser pointer was being held parallel to the horizon and Earth surface.

Are you suggesting that if you hold a pencil out up against the Moon during the Moon Tilt Illusion when the Sun is on the horizon behind you that it would always be aligned along the Earth surface and horizon?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 12, 2020, 01:15:39 AM
Since the Sun is on the horizon behind you, the only way to get a laser pointer to shine at it is if the laser pointer was being held parallel to the horizon and Earth surface.

Are you suggesting that if you hold a pencil out up against the Moon during the Moon Tilt Illusion when the Sun is on the horizon that it would always be aligned along the Earth surface and horizon?

I am suggesting that it is possible to position the laser pointer so that it will point toward the sun and be lined up perpendicular to the moons tilted shadow.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on July 12, 2020, 07:13:31 AM
Let's see if this helps. Here's a row of streetlights.

(https://i.ibb.co/prmvPVK/Street-Lights.jpg)

Because of perspective they get taller as they get nearer to you and so the line made by the light bulbs angles upwards from left to right, yes?


Aha! The line shoots right into space! Those streetlights makers have been lying to us all along!

Tom, why do you even expect the lunar terminator to point at the position of the Sun in the sky? Think of the streetlights and watch this 5 seconds video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzopp9mKtM
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 12, 2020, 08:26:15 AM
Since the Sun is on the horizon behind you, the only way to get a laser pointer to shine at it is if the laser pointer was being held parallel to the horizon and Earth surface.

Are you suggesting that if you hold a pencil out up against the Moon during the Moon Tilt Illusion when the Sun is on the horizon behind you that it would always be aligned along the Earth surface and horizon?
I’m suggesting that that if you hold a pencil perpendicular to the moon’s terminator and continue in a straight line from the point of the pencil then that line will intersect the sun.
I know it doesn’t look like it will. That’s what optical illusion means. But it does. I know it does because I’ve tried it with a piece of string held taut so it is in a straight line.

All you have done, if I’m understanding correctly, is held a short bit of string up and tried to guess where the line will continue.
That is the logical equivalent of deciding that in the  Poggendorff illusion the blue line is a continuation of the black one (which is how most people perceive it), drawing the yellow dotted line but only part way into the grey occluding bar, deciding that it still looks like the yellow line is going to meet the blue one and not investigating further. The only way of actually seeing where the line goes is to stretch more string out and find out. That’s what Bobby did, that’s what I have done. I suggest you have a go.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 12, 2020, 09:01:51 AM
Let me get this straight

1. You claim that if we hold a laser pointer up to the ascending line of street lights that the beams will shine out upwards into space, and not at the horizon behind you, because the upwards ascent is an illusion.

2. You also think that the Moon Tilt Illusion is the same sort of upwards pointing perspective trick.

3. Yet you also think that if you hold a string or straight line against the Moon that it will point at the Sun on the opposite horizon behind you.

What is the deal with that? Sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on July 12, 2020, 09:39:56 AM
Can you hold a string to be perfectly aligned with the streetlights?

Can you see the line of streetlights pointing upwards, when you know it's actually horizontal?

If you answer yes to both questions, why do you expect the Moon terminator to point at the direction of the Sun in the sky?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 12, 2020, 12:18:03 PM
1. You claim that if we hold a laser pointer up to the ascending line of street lights that the beams will shine out upwards into space, and not at the horizon behind you, because the upwards ascent is an illusion.

No. My claim is that the laser pointer isn't actually pointing up into space at all. The line of street lights merely looks like it is because of perspective. You know this because if you turn your head it looks like the line is pointing "up into space" in the other direction. The reality is the top of the lights is parallel to the ground, therefore the laser pointer is too. It only appears to shine upwards for the same reason the line of lights appear to - perspective. It's easy to prove this. Took me 5 minutes in the garden. I used my fence as the row of lights and lined up a string parallel to the top of the fence. Looking left:

(https://i.ibb.co/PYZ6BQW/P1100690.jpg)

The string "shoots off into space". Except it doesn't. That's just perspective. If you look straight in front of you then you'll see the reality, the string is actually parallel to the ground, as is the top of the fence.

(https://i.ibb.co/YLtN2Jj/P1100691.jpg)

Quote
2. You also think that the Moon Tilt Illusion is the same sort of upwards pointing perspective trick.

Exactly. And the way to prove that is to stretch out a string perpendicular to the terminator and note that it points at the sun.
I know it doesn't look like it will, that's literally what optical illusion means. But the reality is, it does.

Quote
3. Yet you also think that if you hold a string or straight line against the Moon that it will point at the Sun on the opposite horizon behind you.

It's not me just thinking it. I've tried it and found that it does. I suggest you do the same.

I think the apparent contradiction you see is because you have misunderstood my post. Hopefully this one clarifies things.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on July 12, 2020, 12:31:14 PM
1. You claim that if we hold a laser pointer up to the ascending line of street lights that the beams will shine out upwards into space, and not at the horizon behind you, because the upwards ascent is an illusion.

Draw a line across the (presumed to be all at the same level) lights, and that line continued to the right and behind the observer appears to ascend, and the continuation to the left, away from the photographer appears to descend.

It's an illusion. You know the light columns are not getting shorter. You know that the lights in the distance are not resting on the ground. You know that the ones behind the observer are not taller than those in view. It's an illusion.

EDIT to add image and comment below

(https://i.imgur.com/9hLZJFJ.jpg)

If there's more lights behind the observer, and he turns around, they will then appear to descend toward the ground, not ascend. The illusion depends on where the observer observes from, and in which direction he/she looks. Agree?

Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 12, 2020, 12:47:56 PM
Right. And the important thing to note, Tumeni, is that those two lines you have drawn are, in reality, parallel to each other and to the ground.
I know they don't look like it, but...perspective.
If you shone a laser or stretched a string along those lines then you'd find when you looked at the light/string straight on that it was in fact parallel to the ground. That's what my little experiment demonstrates.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 12, 2020, 05:45:14 PM
You seem to be arguing that it is possible to hold the laser pointer in such a way that it is parallel to the ground and seems to match the upward angle of the ascending lamps. You are making a perspective effect with the laser pointer by holding it in a special way and position from your eye so that the laser pointer's body seems to point upwards. But there are multiple ways to hold that laser pointer.

If you are standing in line with a row of lamp posts, for example, the line of lamps points straight upwards:

(https://i.imgur.com/sLl2S2k.png)

There are multiple way to angle the laser pointer to match that:

(https://i.imgur.com/MzuguSM.png)

In the bottom position we have your method of specifically trying to make a perspective effect with the laser pointer body.

This is the problem we saw before, there is no way to know which angle is correct. Both positions can seem to match the scene. Only by using outside and pre-determined knowledge of the lamp configuration (or by using perspective clues), do we know which position matches the scene.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 12, 2020, 06:06:08 PM
You seem to be arguing that it is possible to hold the laser pointer in such a way that it is parallel to the ground and seems to match the upward angle of the ascending lamps. You are making a perspective effect with the laser pointer by holding it in a special way and position from your eye so that the laser pointer's body seems to point upwards. But there are multiple ways to hold that laser pointer.

If you are standing in line with a row of lamp posts, for example, the line of lamps points straight upwards:

(https://i.imgur.com/sLl2S2k.png)

There are multiple way to angle the laser pointer to match that:

(https://i.imgur.com/MzuguSM.png)

In the bottom position we have your method of specifically trying to make a perspective effect with the laser pointer body.

This is the problem we saw before, there is no way to know which angle is correct. Both positions can seem to match the scene. Only by using outside and pre-determined knowledge of the lamp configuration (or by using perspective clues), do we know which position matches the scene.

Since you can admit and believe that the laser pointer can be positioned parallel AND match the upward angle of the lamps, why is it so hard to believe this same effect is happening with the moon?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 12, 2020, 06:16:52 PM
It is also possible that those lamps in a line with us from my last illustration are actually of different increasing heights as they approach, and that the line of lamps coming towards us actually does point upwards. The laser/string experiment cannot distinguish between that. AATW would still use a perspective effect with the laser pointer to make a earth-parallel laser pointer appear to point upwards, and he would still declare that the earth-parallel laser pointer proves that the lamps are parallel with the earth.

It's not so much of what is possible. People keep insisting that this string experiment demonstrates something.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on July 12, 2020, 06:57:50 PM
It is also possible that those lamps in a line with us from my last illustration are actually of different increasing heights as they approach, and that the line of lamps coming towards us actually does point upwards. The laser/string experiment cannot distinguish between that. AATW would still use a perspective effect to make a earth-parallel laser pointer appear to point upwards, and he would still declare that the earth-parallel laser pointer proves that the lamps are parallel.

It's not so much of what is possible. People keep insisting that this string experiment demonstrates something.

The string experiment shows that the "tilt" is exactly what you would expect because of perspective. Just like if you hold the string along the streetlights line.

If the string aligns, there are two possibilities: either it is actually caused by perspective, either by a coincidence, it exactly matches that. In the case of the streetlights, either they are actually aligned and the same height, and the perspective causes the perceived angle, either they are of different height and positioned in such a way they appear exactly as if they were the same height. This is what they do to create perspective illusions such as the ones found on this link: https://gizmodo.com/these-super-fun-illusions-really-messes-with-your-persp-1725059895 , but it only works from a certain angle.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 12, 2020, 07:29:06 PM
In my last diagram it was possible to angle the laser pointer even straight upwards and get it to match the scene.

The Sun and Moon aren't on random locations in the sky. The Sun and Moon follow the ecliptic. They follow near the same path. It's possible to get a string to point a Sun at a number of points on the ecliptic, just like the laser pointer can point in a large range of motion from my last diagram.

(https://i.imgur.com/KewT9vv.png)

So really, this string stuff is really rather erroneous and does not demonstrate where the Moon is actually pointing.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Longtitube on July 12, 2020, 07:36:14 PM
The explanation for the Moon Tilt Illusion (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion) in RE is an effect of perspective.

When viewing the Moon Tilt Illusion, the Moon will often be tilted upwards:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/6/61/Moon_Tilt_Illusion.png/900px-Moon_Tilt_Illusion.png)

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/3a/Moon_Tilt_Northern_Waxing.png)

RE Theorists explain this as result of a perspective effect (my emphasis)


I've searched for RE explanations of how extreme perspective changes explain the Moon Tilt Illusion, but found none so far. If the OP can supply some examples (other than copypasta from the wiki) I'd be obliged.

Regarding the apparent illusion, and if I read the FE explanation correctly, this is accounted for by Electromagnetic Acceleration affecting the light from Sun and Moon as we see them from Earth's surface. This implies to me that near dawn with a waning gibbous moon, or near sunset with a waxing gibbous moon, the light from the sun (just above the horizon) is most affected by EA while the light from the moon (fairly high in the sky) is much less affected by EA, thus accounting for the apparent anomaly where the moon's terminator doesn't appear to accurately indicate the sun's position. But is the anomaly real?

Every schoolboy should know the following experiment, and if you haven't tried it I urge you to do it. On such a morning described, go outside and hold a golf ball, ping-pong ball or similar in line with the moon and compare the shadow on the ball with that on the moon's face. The two will match.

Quote
The Ping Pong Perspective

Holding a white ball at arm’s length in the direction of the Moon shows how lunar phases depend on where the Moon is in the sky with respect to the Sun. S&T: J. Kelly Beatty

(https://skyandtelescope.org/wp-content/uploads/Ping-Pong-Moon.jpg)

The Moon's phases are actually related to orbital motion, and there's a simple and fun observation that shows how they're connected. All you'll need is a Ping-Pong ball to simulate the Moon—actually, any small, white sphere would work. Then head outside about an hour before sunset, or around the time of a first-quarter Moon. Find the Moon in the southern part of the sky, then hold the ball up at arm's length right beside it.

You'll see that the ball shows exactly the same phase as the Moon. The Sun illuminates both the ball and the Moon from the same direction, and you see them as partly sunlit and partly in shadow, their bright and dark portions mimicking each other perfectly. If the weather stays clear, you can repeat this observation on the next several afternoons. Each day the Moon's orbital motion has carried it farther east, and the sunlit portion of its disk has grown larger. If you hold your ball up near the Moon, you'll see that its “phase” has thickened too.

To sneak a preview of the Moon's appearance in the days to come, simply move the ball farther east. And if you move it all the way over so your arm points low in the eastern sky, the side of the ball that's facing you will be almost completely illuminated — nearly a “Full Ball,” so to speak. And, sure enough, a day or two before full Moon, the Moon hangs low in the eastern sky just before sunset and is almost completely illuminated.

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-resources/what-are-the-phases-of-the-moon/ (https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-resources/what-are-the-phases-of-the-moon/)
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 12, 2020, 08:11:18 PM
Quote
(https://skyandtelescope.org/wp-content/uploads/Ping-Pong-Moon.jpg)

The phase of the ball will change with small movements around the scene. If the camera is somewhere behind his hand looking up at the moon the ping pong ball is going to be a darker phase. If the camera is angled from lower, looking up, the phase of the ping pong ball is going to be pointing more upwards.

Take a small half-colored ball and see how easy it is to change phase in relation to a point in the distance with small movements.

This is another case of Metabunk's patented: "I used a highly variable close range perspective effect and got something to match. Proofz!!!"
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 12, 2020, 08:22:29 PM
Quote
(https://skyandtelescope.org/wp-content/uploads/Ping-Pong-Moon.jpg)

The phase of the ball will change with small movements around the scene. If the camera is somewhere behind his hand looking up at the moon the ping pong ball is going to be a darker phase. If the camera is angled from lower, looking up, the phase of the ping pong ball is going to be pointing more upwards.

Take a small half-colored ball and see how easy it is to change phase in relation to a point in the distance with small movements.

This is another case of: "I used a highly variable close range perspective effect and got something to match. Proofz!!!"

It may not be definitive proof, but it IS proof that it is POSSIBLE that the sun is pointing at the moon just as RET says it should.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 12, 2020, 08:26:22 PM
Here is another example from MetaBunk:

In a MetaBunk thread Mick West views a Moon Tilt Illusion and performs the following: (https://www.metabunk.org/the-moon-tilt-terminator-illusions.t8165/page-2)

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/2/28/Mick_West_Moon_TIlt_Illusion.jpg/900px-Mick_West_Moon_TIlt_Illusion.jpg)

The red arrows in the image above are drawn by Mick West and depicts the directions of light for the bodies in question, as seen from a far vantage point. The Moon (top red arrow) is unexpectedly pointing above the Sun while the ball on a post (bottom red arrow) is pointing towards the Sun, as would be expected. It is expected that bodies illuminated by the Sun would point towards it.

Mr. West then approaches the ball and angles the camera close and right up to the ball on a post to get it to point away from the Sun like the Moon does:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/e/e3/Mick_West_Moon_Tilt_Illusion_2.jpg/750px-Mick_West_Moon_Tilt_Illusion_2.jpg)

Mr. West concluded that this is what must be happening with the Moon.

The author uses a close-range perspective effect to match the Moon. There is little doubt that holding something very near to one's face or camera can create lots of angles. Yet, in the first far distance scene the illuminated portion of the ball points at the Sun. It is not until the observer gets up close to the ball, to a special carefully selected position beneath it, that the ball is able to point away from the sun, in a similar direction as the Moon.

So we see, the phase of the ball does not behave in the same at all positions. One must carefully select the position of the camera to match the Moon.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Longtitube on July 12, 2020, 09:09:41 PM
Have you tried the experiment yourself? The purpose of the photo in my post is to illustrate what to do in the interests of finding out for myself without using wideangle photographs (with distortion) or panoramic compositions stitched together in Photoshop which show much wider fields of view than the human eye can possibly see (also with distortion). Perspective has nothing to do with it.

If the illusion is caused by EA, the light striking the ping pong ball just 7 feet above Earth's surface would show a much different terminator line angle than that on the moon some thousands of miles above the Earth, but until some more homework is done on that equation in the Wiki, no calculation can be done on the difference to be expected.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 12, 2020, 09:37:57 PM
You seem to be arguing that it is possible to hold the laser pointer in such a way that it is parallel to the ground and seems to match the upward angle of the ascending lamps.
I'm not arguing it. I have quite clearly demonstrated it.
I don't know what you mean by holding the pointer in a "special way". I simply lined the string up with the top of the fence. 

It really is as simple as this. If the moon is being lit by the sun then a straight line perpendicular to the terminator of the moon should point at the sun because that is where the light which illuminates the moon comes from. When this optical illusion happens it appears that the terminator points up into the sky and thus that straight line will shoot off into space. That is what it looks like.

What you appear to have done is to hold up a short bit of string perpendicular to the terminator, observed that it does indeed look like the line made by the string will, if continued, shoot off into space and not investigated further. I have explained why that is not sufficient - we are not very good at determining where straight lines will continue as demonstrated by the other optical illusion I've mentioned. The only way of telling where the line goes is to spool out enough string to find out. If you do - as I have - then you will find that the line does, contrary to appearances, actually point at the sun. And that's what you'd expect if the moon is being lit by the sun.
I know it doesn't look like it will, but that's literally what is meant by an optical illusion.

You seem to be simultaneously arguing that the line perpendicular to the terminator "shoots off into space" and then when people who have done the experiment tell you that if you stretch the string out properly then you'll find it does intersect the sun you are declaring that irrelevant.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on July 12, 2020, 10:06:17 PM
IMG snipped

The phase of the ball will change with small movements around the scene. If the camera is somewhere behind his hand looking up at the moon the ping pong ball is going to be a darker phase. If the camera is angled from lower, looking up, the phase of the ping pong ball is going to be pointing more upwards.

Of course it will. So what? Do you really STILL not get the point of the exercise? 

The whole idea is to look at the ball AT THE SAME ANGLE at which you are looking at the Moon. Call the datum line between your eye and the ball, or your eye and the Moon, the zero degree 'datum' line.

For the ball, in order to move your eye or camera to the side, such that you have moved the datum line 5 degrees, you move your eye or camera a small distance.

In order to do the same for the Moon, you must move it a large distance.

So if you move the eye or camera a small distance to yield a different phase on the ball, you will not have changed your view of the phase of the Moon. Because the Moon is much further away than the ball.

In order to match the angle, you hold the ball as close as you can to the Moon in your field of vision, hold the ball in line with the Moon, such that the angles match as closely as they can. If you don't, there's no point. 
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Longtitube on July 13, 2020, 05:48:25 AM
Have you tried the experiment yourself? The purpose of the photo in my post is to illustrate what to do in the interests of finding out ...

No answer yet, so I presume the OP is outside with a golf or ping pong ball trying it for him/herself. It’s a particularly good time to try it, the moon is at last quarter right now so the terminator line is especially easy to see.

Let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: GreatATuin on July 13, 2020, 07:46:43 AM
In my last diagram it was possible to angle the laser pointer even straight upwards and get it to match the scene.

The Sun and Moon aren't on random locations in the sky. The Sun and Moon follow the ecliptic. They follow near the same path. It's possible to get a string to point a Sun at a number of points on the ecliptic, just like the laser pointer can point in a large range of motion from my last diagram.

(https://i.imgur.com/KewT9vv.png)

So really, this string stuff is really rather erroneous and does not demonstrate where the Moon is actually pointing.

I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to get at with this diagram (with the Moon and Sun at the same distance from Earth, which is absolutely not the RE model - but that's another question).

Let's take a triangle, A being the center of the Moon, B the center of the Sun, C your eye.

If you hold a string between any point on AC and any point on BC, this line will appear to your eye as a straight line between A and B. There are infinite possibilities but the end result is the same. You will see a projection of AB.

Why don't you try for yourself? Find the Moon, find the Sun, hold a string. Tell us if it works. Just don't stare at the Sun because of the possible eye damage.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on July 13, 2020, 09:14:43 AM
Let's take a triangle, A being the center of the Moon, B the center of the Sun, C your eye.

If you hold a string between any point on AC and any point on BC, this line will appear to your eye as a straight line between A and B. There are infinite possibilities but the end result is the same. You will see a projection of AB.

To put it another way;

(https://i.imgur.com/UahnQcM.jpg)

When viewed from the side, the three points form the plane of the triangle, and it appears as a straight line from this viewpoint, because you cannot perceive its shape from looking at its edge. However, the observer can only view the plane of it from point C itself, not from the point of view of the side view shown.

A string held up at point C, the earth observer, aligned with side AB would in side view, simply merge into the plane of the triangle. It looks to be parallel to side AB from the observer viewpoint. It could be parallel, and it might vary, but from this viewpoint, it could not be seen whether it was or not.

If viewed from above the triangle, Tom appears to be arguing in the last page or two that whilst the string appears to be parallel to AB, it could be non-parallel, and still appear to the Earth observer to be so (still in the plane of the triangle, but non-parallel to AB - aligned across the triangle, as it were). This appears to be the argument starting with the green cone. Yes, it is possible to align the string with AB along the plane, but have it non-parallel to the side itself; but this does. not. matter.

It only matters if the observer has the ability to view the situation from above. Nobody can do this.   

Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on July 13, 2020, 09:41:49 AM
Mr. West ...

The author uses a close-range perspective effect to match the Moon. There is little doubt that holding something very near to one's face or camera can create lots of angles. Yet, in the first far distance scene the illuminated portion of the ball points at the Sun. It is not until the observer gets up close to the ball, to a special carefully selected position beneath it, that the ball is able to point away from the sun, in a similar direction as the Moon.

So we see, the phase of the ball does not behave in the same at all positions. One must carefully select the position of the camera to match the Moon.

The observer, without the ball, can look at the Moon, or the Sun, or points elsewhere. If he looks at the Moon, he is looking along side CA, toward A; if at the Sun, along side CB, toward B.

The only place to hold the ball in order to see if its phase matches that of the Moon is ON side CA. If you hold it elsewhere, at any of the "other angles" or "other positions" that you refer to, you've instantly defeated the whole point of the exercise.

Since it is impossible to see through most ping-pong or golf balls, the observer must hold the ball slightly off from the line of side CA in order to see both the ball and the Moon. If it is held perfectly ON the line, it will obscure the Moon.

OF COURSE the phase of the ball will vary if you look at it from different places. If you look at it from between it and the sun, from a point along side CB, toward C, it will have no phase, and all you will see is the lit surface. If you look at it from outwith the triangle, from a point extended along BC but "behind" the ball with respect to the Sun, all you will see is shade. The phase will vary according to the angle at which you view it, and will only match the Moon's if you hold it such that you are viewing it AND the Moon from the same angle.

The whole idea of the exercise is to observe the ball from the same angle at which you are viewing the Moon. 

Your lamp posts from a page or so back (currently #74) only line up if you stand in line with them. Clearly, if you stand elsewhere, they will not line up. Clearly, if you do not align your line of sight with the ball AND the Moon, they will not appear to have the same phase.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: junker on July 14, 2020, 09:33:22 AM
Have you tried the experiment yourself? The purpose of the photo in my post is to illustrate what to do in the interests of finding out ...

No answer yet, so I presume the OP is outside with a golf or ping pong ball trying it for him/herself. It’s a particularly good time to try it, the moon is at last quarter right now so the terminator line is especially easy to see.

Let us know how you get on.

Please don't bump threads in the upper fora if you aren't going to contribute anything to the topic. Especially if it is just quoting a post you made 8 hours before and whining that someone hasn't replied to you.

Warned.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Longtitube on July 14, 2020, 09:42:46 AM
Noted. No whine intended, I’ll wait patiently instead.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 20, 2020, 06:02:05 PM
OK, here's an image I found in the wiki (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion):

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/3d/Moon_Tilt_Scotland.jpg)

This is an attempt to prove that the sun can't possibly be pointing at the moon.

My first thought when looking at this picture, was very similar to the wiki's quoted text saying

Quote
I immediately noticed this anomaly that the light illuminating the moon could not possibly come from the sun.

There is something that doesn't appear right in this photo...........

sigh......

It's a panoramic photo!

You can't make any determination one way or the other with it. It isn't representative of reality, whatsoever.

Edit:

TBH, I would suggest removing it from the wiki because it undermines the point you are trying to make because the photo is skewed since it is panoramic - and it is probably obvious to most who view it that it is in fact a panoramic photo.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Longtitube on July 20, 2020, 06:42:38 PM
OK, here's an image I found in the wiki (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion):

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/3d/Moon_Tilt_Scotland.jpg)

There is something that doesn't appear right in this photo...........

sigh......

It's a panoramic photo!

You can't make any determination one way or the other with it. It isn't representative of reality, whatsoever.

Exactly. You can use Stellarium or any other good star chart program to check the Moon phase for the date in the photo and you'll find it's correct. What you'll also find is the Sun and Moon are about 140 degrees apart horizontally near sunset as in the photograph – if you were standing facing the Moon, the Sun would be behind your right shoulder. My mother may have had eyes in the back of her head, but I can't see that wide. The photograph is useless without that extra information.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 20, 2020, 06:52:54 PM
OK, here's an image I found in the wiki (https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion):

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/3d/Moon_Tilt_Scotland.jpg)

This is an attempt to prove that the sun can't possibly be pointing at the moon.

My first thought when looking at this picture, was very similar to the wiki's quoted text saying

Quote
I immediately noticed this anomaly that the light illuminating the moon could not possibly come from the sun.

There is something that doesn't appear right in this photo...........

sigh......

It's a panoramic photo!

You can't make any determination one way or the other with it. It isn't representative of reality, whatsoever.

Edit:

TBH, I would suggest removing it from the wiki because it undermines the point you are trying to make because the photo is skewed since it is panoramic - and it is probably obvious to most who view it that it is in fact a panoramic photo.

The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. That was just a panoramic they took. I would suggest actually reading the content.

Panoramics don't generally turn straight lines into curves, by the way, otherwise the horizon, powerlines, and all elements in panoramics would show this warping. Take a panoramic of the horizon around you and it's generally straight.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 20, 2020, 07:09:05 PM
The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. I would suggest actually reading the content.

First off, please don't make assumptions about what I have and have not read - I read the content.

Secondly, since when do you take someone's word as evidence of anything other than words? Many have told you they demonstrated the string experiment and found that the sun does in fact point to the moon - yet you have routinely dismissed this as evidence, why do you now believe (or expect someone else to believe) someone's word in this case?

Panoramics don't generally turn straight lines into curves, by the way, otherwise the horizon, powerlines, and all elements would show this warping.

Have you ever taken a panoramic photo? They absolutely DO change straight lines into curves, that's how it can grab 180 degrees and shrink it into 50.

Look closely at that picture, you will see that the fence and (more prevalently), the power lines do curve. Just hold a ruler or any straight edge up to the photograph. Seriously, give it a try on the power line. There is no easier way to argue this - and you won't convince anybody that it is straight.

Edit:

Furthermore, you admit that it is a panoramic photo, but still somehow you want to use it as evidence? You might as well use "that everest photo" as evidence to support the claim made by the climber who asserts they see a curve on the horizon.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Longtitube on July 20, 2020, 07:16:45 PM
The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. That was just a panoramic they took. I would suggest actually reading the content.

Excellent advice, do read the content, especially the link to the original Stack Exchange post:–

Quote
Below is a photo that my son took in Scotland showing the sun and moon at the same time. I immediately noticed this anomaly...

The poster was not present when the panoramic photo was taken by his son. Actually, it's more accurate to say photos because a panorama is made of several photos joined together later by software. Make a wide enough panorama and it's easy to give the wrong impression of where something is pointing.

How did you get on with the ping pong ball experiment?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 20, 2020, 07:29:56 PM
Quote
First off, please don't make assumptions about what I have and have not read - I read the content.

Secondly, since when do you take someone's word as evidence of anything other than words? Many have told you they demonstrated the string experiment and found that the sun does in fact point to the moon - yet you have routinely dismissed this as evidence, why do you now believe (or expect someone else to believe) someone's word in this case?

I never called the string experiment a lie. I called it erroneous.

Quote
Have you ever taken a panoramic photo? They absolutely DO change straight lines into curves, that's how it can grab 180 degrees and shrink it into 50.

Horizons are flat in panoramas, not curved. It's possible to get some curving if the camera is not perfectly horizontal when turning - http://www.theperfectpanorama.com/articles/problem-6-horizons.html or possibly if it's not a rectilinear lens or other causes.

Quote
Furthermore, you admit that it is a panoramic photo, but still somehow you want to use it as evidence? You might as well use "that everest photo" as evidence to support the claim made by the climber who asserts they see a curve on the horizon.

There might be some curving in that photo. The evidence is the text, however, that people regularly see this themselves. The panorama provided does show how the moon points upward with the Moon Tilt Illusion.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 20, 2020, 07:33:02 PM
Quote
Excellent advice, do read the content, especially the link to the original Stack Exchange post:–

Quote
Below is a photo that my son took in Scotland showing the sun and moon at the same time. I immediately noticed this anomaly...

The poster was not present when the panoramic photo was taken by his son.

Incorrect. The source says that they saw the effect for themselves.

From the author:

"I'm very surprised that some of you have never noticed it before hence the suggestion asking me to post a video. This is a very common occurrence and I have seen it many many times as I go for my morning walk at about 8.00am every morning. I have never thought of actually tabulating my observations"

"The anomaly is acknowledged to exist with or without photos."
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 20, 2020, 07:36:17 PM
There might be some curving in that photos. The evidence is the text, however, that people regularly see this themselves.

The evidence is that they assert that they saw it themselves with or without photos. I would suggest actually reading the content.

You keep mentioning the evidence is the text. The evidence is that they "saw it for themselves".

According to the wiki, the person making the claim (the father), never actually observed the phenomenon himself. He only saw the photograph.

Quote
Below is a photo that my son took in Scotland showing the sun and moon at the same time. I immediately noticed this anomaly that the light illuminating the moon could not possibly come from the sun.

Therefore, the fact that the photograph is skewed from reality is a MAJOR conflict and discrediting factor. It probably explains why nobody but a single librarian responded to his inquiries.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 20, 2020, 07:37:27 PM
According to the wiki, the person making the claim (the father), never actually observed the phenomenon himself. He only saw the photograph.

Keep reading:

"I'm very surprised that some of you have never noticed it before hence the suggestion asking me to post a video. This is a very common occurrence and I have seen it many many times as I go for my morning walk at about 8.00am every morning. I have never thought of actually tabulating my observations"

"The anomaly is acknowledged to exist with or without photos."
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 20, 2020, 07:39:59 PM
According to the wiki, the person making the claim (the father), never actually observed the phenomenon himself. He only saw the photograph.

Keep reading:

"I'm very surprised that some of you have never noticed it before hence the suggestion asking me to post a video. This is a very common occurrence and I have seen it many many times as I go for my morning walk at about 8.00am every morning. I have never thought of actually tabulating my observations"

"The anomaly is acknowledged to exist with or without photos."

He's referring to a different observation altogether, not at all the same one as in the photograph. We have established that the moon tilt illusion does exist. So the man can possibly also see this illusion, but not to the extent as in the photograph.

The photo does not allow the observer to account for a 3 dimensional perspective. It is a false premise.

The 3 dimensional perspective is what allows the string experiment to work.

The angle in that photo is quite different than it is in reality. The sun and moon do not appear that close together in reality. In reality, during that particular moon-phase, you wouldn't be able to look at the moon and sun at the same time, but because of photographic technology that skews the photo, you can see them at the same time. Therefore, presenting this photo as evidence is disingenuous.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 20, 2020, 10:50:53 PM
Quote from: timterroo
the person making the claim (the father), never actually observed the phenomenon himself.

Quote from: timterroo
He's referring to a different observation altogether, not at all the same one as in the photograph. We have established that the moon tilt illusion does exist. So the man can possibly also see this illusion, but not to the extent as in the photograph.

So he did observe the phenomenon for himself then.

Quote
The 3 dimensional perspective is what allows the string experiment to work.

The string experiment does not give enough information to tell how an object is angled.

Quote from: timterroo
The angle in that photo is quite different than it is in reality. The sun and moon do not appear that close together in reality. In reality, during that particular moon-phase, you wouldn't be able to look at the moon and sun at the same time

This is incorrect. We can see 190 degrees of space using both of our eyes. Unless there are horizon or object obstructions the Sun and Moon will not ever be in a position when they are above the horizon and where it is impossible to see both at the same time.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Longtitube on July 21, 2020, 06:03:52 AM
We can see 190 degrees of space using both of our eyes. Unless there are horizon or object obstructions the Sun and Moon will not ever be in a position when they are above the horizon and where it is impossible to see both at the same time.

I would not like unkind remarks about swivel-eyed loons, so you might like to check that claim. Human vision is about 150 degrees, but the majority of that field only registers movement and large objects. Our central field of vision where details are more important only covers about 30 degrees and we only resolve text, phase angle of moon, etc within a much narrower angle of 2-3 degrees. Unlike a 200 degree wide panoramic photograph.

To see wider involves changing your viewpoint, just like panning the camera for ultra-wide photography. This is how the illusion of the moon tilting wrongly arises.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on July 21, 2020, 08:30:03 AM
The string experiment does not give enough information to tell how an object is angled.

It does, in the plane that matters. For the reasons I outlined above. It does not matter if the string is angled across the plane of the three objects, since the observer can not see it from above or below the plane.

Unless there are horizon or object obstructions the Sun and Moon will not ever be in a position when they are above the horizon and where it is impossible to see both at the same time.

Incorrect. See any YouTube video of a selenelion eclipse. With Sun and Moon 180 degrees opposite each other in the observer's (EDIT roughly-) horizontal plane, the observer cannot see the Sun, behind them, if looking at the Moon, and vice versa.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 21, 2020, 09:24:27 AM
I never called the string experiment a lie. I called it erroneous.
You did. But the experiment you seem to have done - which you called "better" - was to stretch a short bit of string perpendicular to the moon's terminator, observe that the string appears to shoot up into the sky and drawn conclusions from that.
You haven't confirmed that's what you did, that's what it sounded like from your description, but you haven't corrected me either.
If that is what you did, I have explained why that is actually a worse experiment.
It's worse because you have inferred where the line goes if continued - I have demonstrated that we are not very good at judging that. How is doing that better than continuing the line and observing where it goes? Those of us who have done that have seen it goes to the sun. I know, it doesn't look like it will. It's an optical illusion. That is literally what optical illusion means - something which isn't as it appears.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Pete Svarrior on July 21, 2020, 03:40:29 PM
Furthermore, you admit that it is a panoramic photo, but still somehow you want to use it as evidence? You might as well use "that everest photo" as evidence to support the claim made by the climber who asserts they see a curve on the horizon.
I've gotta say, I'm convinced by your argument here. While the moon tilt illusion clearly occurs and can be witnessed, the photographed used in the Wiki is not a great illustration* of it.

* - n.b. I don't believe replacing it with a better photo would turn it into evidence, but a better illustration would still be an improvement.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: edby on July 21, 2020, 04:40:40 PM
Panoramics don't generally turn straight lines into curves, by the way, otherwise the horizon, powerlines, and all elements in panoramics would show this warping. Take a panoramic of the horizon around you and it's generally straight.

Yes they do generally turn straight lines into curves, except for radial lines through the view centre, i.e. the horizon.

http://hugin.sourceforge.net/docs/manual/The_General_Panini_Projection.html

Another example below. Any straight line at eye level will come out as straight. Any parallel line below, such as the tracks, will curve upwards (because parallel lines appear to converge with distance). By the same logic, any parallel line above (the wires) will curve downwards. The horizon is therefore a special case.

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/view-window-moving-train-shot-wide-angle-lens-distortion-space-outside-landscape-nature-suburb-148760204.jpg)
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2020, 05:48:23 PM
That is very incorrect. Your link is talking about the 'General Panini Projection'. Panoramas do not all turn all lines into curves as a rule. Most people prefer their straight lines to stay straight.

I would suggest searching for 'rectilinear panoramas'.

https://www.ptgui.com/man/projections.html

Quote
Rectilinear projection has the unique property of preserving all straight lines: any line that is straight in real world, is displayed as a straight line in the panorama. This makes it a suitable projection for architectural panoramas.

However due to the same property it is physically impossible to display panoramas wider or taller than 180 degrees in rectilinear projection. At higher field of view, stretching becomes apparent in the sides and corners of the image. This stretching becomes severe already at 120 degrees and more.

The corner stretching effect can be reduced by using horizontal and/or vertical compression: click on Projection Settings in the Panorama Editor and move the compression sliders to the right. By compressing the rectilinear view it is possible to create panoramas up to 180 x 180 degrees without extreme distortion. Horizontal and vertical lines are still preserved as straight but diagonal lines become curved when compression is used.

Once again:

"any line that is straight in real world, is displayed as a straight line in the panorama"

The horizon can appear flat at various points on a panorama:

(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/panorama-rural-summer-landscape-road-260nw-712944052.jpg)

(https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/panorama-perfect-white-sand-beach-260nw-1084718492.jpg)
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: edby on July 21, 2020, 06:28:20 PM
That is very incorrect. Your link is talking about the 'General Panini Projection'. Panoramas do not all turn all lines into curves as a rule. Most people prefer their straight lines to stay straight.
So we take a panorama of both directions of a railway track. The tracks will not appear to converge in the far distance in each direction? How?
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 21, 2020, 07:10:07 PM
This whole discussion about panoramas is a diversion. The moon tilt illusion observably happens. Surely what is relevant is why it happens and whether its explanation is a point for (or against) FET or RET.

My take: it’s an optical illusion - the string experiment proves that. Yes, it looks like the string perpendicular to the terminator will shoot off into space but if you keep following the line you’ll see it doesn't. Like all optical illusions it’s an interesting insight into the way our brains process visual information, nothing more.

This isn’t a point for or against either model, in both models the moon is illuminated by the sun (ignoring some models where the moon is self illuminated which are, in my view, just silly).

The only potential point against FE with this illusion, once you understand that it’s an optical illusion, is that in FET would you actually expect the line perpendicular to the moon’s terminator to reach the sun? Wouldn’t EA mean the light should bend? Not sure about this. The Wiki claims that the illusion is a prediction of EA but I don’t understand this as when the illusion happens the light appears to bend the opposite way to the way EA predicts. Although, as discussed, it’s an optical illusion. The light isn’t really bending at all.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 21, 2020, 07:23:16 PM
My take: it’s an optical illusion - the string experiment proves that. Yes, it looks like the string perpendicular to the terminator will shoot off into space but if you keep following the line you’ll see it doesn't.

Again, that "take" is erroneous. There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky.

(https://i.imgur.com/KewT9vv.png)
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: edby on July 21, 2020, 07:27:49 PM
This whole discussion about panoramas is a diversion. The moon tilt illusion observably happens. Surely what is relevant is why it happens and whether its explanation is a point for (or against) FET or RET.
The illusion happens for the same reason that parallel lines in a panorama (an uncorrected panorama, not using the form of correction that Tom refers to) appear to converge. The underlying phenomenon is the same.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: timterroo on July 21, 2020, 08:19:22 PM
This whole discussion about panoramas is a diversion. The moon tilt illusion observably happens. Surely what is relevant is why it happens and whether its explanation is a point for (or against) FET or RET.

My take: it’s an optical illusion - the string experiment proves that. Yes, it looks like the string perpendicular to the terminator will shoot off into space but if you keep following the line you’ll see it doesn't. Like all optical illusions it’s an interesting insight into the way our brains process visual information, nothing more.

This isn’t a point for or against either model, in both models the moon is illuminated by the sun (ignoring some models where the moon is self illuminated which are, in my view, just silly).

The only potential point against FE with this illusion, once you understand that it’s an optical illusion, is that in FET would you actually expect the line perpendicular to the moon’s terminator to reach the sun? Wouldn’t EA mean the light should bend? Not sure about this. The Wiki claims that the illusion is a prediction of EA but I don’t understand this as when the illusion happens the light appears to bend the opposite way to the way EA predicts. Although, as discussed, it’s an optical illusion. The light isn’t really bending at all.

My only point about the picture being panoramic was simply to discredit it as evidence, and that (as Pete agreed), it is not a good example of what is happening in reality.

So, getting past the distorted picture, and back to the point:

If the best argument against the string experiment is that "There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky", then at least Tom is admitting that it is possible to connect the string from the moon to the sun. We need no further evidence to assert that it is POSSIBLE that the moon is being illuminated by the sun AND that no bending of light is necessary.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on July 21, 2020, 08:38:04 PM
Again, that "take" is erroneous. There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky.
I think I understand your argument but let me try and explain it with a diagram of my own. Let's simplify by representing this in 2D.
So the sun is at the bottom, moon is at the top. All not to scale of course.
The left moon and sun I've drawn the light going in a straight line, on the right the light travels in an arc. This of course would mean a different moon phase than if the light was travelling straight.
On the left I've drawn two orange "strings" at different angles. If you were looking from the left then all 4 of those lines would line up:

(https://i.ibb.co/LdBH5Vc/moontilt.jpg)

So is that your argument? The fact that you can hold a string up doesn't prove the light is travelling in a straight line because it could be bending away from you? I mean, technically that is true, but I don't see how that applies to this situation. The image from your Wiki:

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/3/3d/Moon_Tilt_Scotland.jpg)

How would you line up a straight piece of string along that apparent curve? The experiment you have apparently done (again, you haven't clarified either way, so I'm surmising from your description) is to hold a short piece of string and observe that it looks as thought it "shoots off into space". But that is a poor experiment because it is just you trying to judge where the line goes. I have shown another optical illusion which demonstrates quite clearly that we are poor at making such judgements. The only way to find out where the line goes is to stretch out more string and find out. I have done so and, contrary to appearances found that it points at the sun.

Can I ask how you think that this effect is a prediction of EA? The light looks to be bending downwards when this effect occurs, not upwards as EA claims.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: Tumeni on July 21, 2020, 09:49:53 PM
There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky.

(https://i.imgur.com/KewT9vv.png)

They only look different because the viewpoint is one from outwith the observer's.

If you looked at them from your little man's viewpoint, they would all look the same. I refer you to my point above about it not matter whether the string is held with one end or the other nearer or further to you than the line connecting Moon and Sun.

The alignment is along the plane of the triangle mentioned.

EDIT - additionally, if the yellow orb is the sun, with the Moon to the right of the observer, and the orange are other POSSIBLE sun positions, then there are possible string positions for each, indicated by multiple red dotted lines - but there can only be one at any one time ... neither the sun nor the moon can be in two places at once.

Pick one, and a triangle is formed by sun, moon, and observer. It matters not if the plane of that triangle differs from the plane of another triangle, from a different observation at a different time. For each observation, at a particular time, there is only one triangle. Again, see my explanation(s) above. The observer aligns the string with the plane of the triangle, and from his viewpoint it is superimposed on the line connecting sun and moom.

Because he can ONLY have a viewpoint aligned with the plane of the triangle, looking along the sides to sun, moon, or at points along the side connecting them, he cannot perceive if the string is non-parallel to the side opposite him, but can perceive it to be aligned with the plane and the opposite side.

Further EDIT

(https://i.imgur.com/p91Ci6n.jpg)

The blue triangle is the one I described; the orange lines are the observer's string. It connects two sides, and will always be on the plane of the triangle, although it could be non-parallel to the side opposite the observer. This non-parallelness does not matter. Alignment with the plane of the triangle does.
Title: Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
Post by: ChrisTP on July 22, 2020, 08:41:32 AM
My take: it’s an optical illusion - the string experiment proves that. Yes, it looks like the string perpendicular to the terminator will shoot off into space but if you keep following the line you’ll see it doesn't.

Again, that "take" is erroneous. There are several ways to hold the string up to the Moon, to connect to points in the sky.

(https://i.imgur.com/KewT9vv.png)
You can do that with any round object lit by a light source as long as you hold the string perpendicular to the terminator line, what matters is when you bring the string from one object to the light source to see if the perpendicular line is heading directly toward the light source, if it goes off past the light source at an angle you might have a point to make, but not letting the line meet or go past the light source seems like a purposeful diversion.

It's a cool optical illusion.