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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2020, 03:15:42 PM »
You flatly refuse to answer.

Fully one-quarter of the replies here have been from me. Your statement does not compute.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2020, 03:18:51 PM »
So how can you get it to turn 45 degrees to perspective, without seeing different sides of the Moon's day and night?

By your movement on the Earth's surface, dependent on the axial tilt at the time of year, the Moon's current position with respect to the ecliptic plane, and on the latitude of your observation point.

Again - model it for yourself in 3D with model Earth and Moon. Orient a camera with the orientation of an observer on the surface of your model Earth.   

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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2020, 06:22:44 PM »
We already have the math with the actual RE distances.

I agree that things should not turn much to persoective. The Moon would actually turn negligibly to perspective in RE, less than 2 degrees.

So how can you get it to turn 45 degrees to perspective, without seeing different sides of the Moon's day and night?

How can a pencil or a Rubix Cube tilt to perspective without seeing different sides of it?

You flatly refuse to answer.

You fail to understand that there is not really a "tilt". The Moon appears exactly the way it's supposed to appear. You intuitively expect to be able to draw a straight line from the Moon to the position of the Sun in the sky, perpendicular to the terminator. But this expectation, albeit intuitive, is false. Because of perspective.

How could we explain a tilt when it's not there?
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Offline model 29

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2020, 05:29:15 PM »
Tom, are you confused about the moon's phase appearing to not line up with the sun?  Because this has been explained before and you admitted to understanding it.

Or, are you confused about the face of the moon appearing to rotate throughout the evening?  Because this has also been explained in this thread.

Or, are you confused about both and don't know how to differentiate between the answers being given?

It is apparent that some people will be under the Moon, while others are at another angle and see it low in the sky to their left or right, and must have different perspective views. So those people must see different sides of it.
As would happen with a small local moon a couple thousand miles up, and we do not see this, which disproves flat Earth.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2020, 05:35:56 PM by model 29 »

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2020, 05:50:04 PM »
You fail to understand that there is not really a "tilt". The Moon appears exactly the way it's supposed to appear. You intuitively expect to be able to draw a straight line from the Moon to the position of the Sun in the sky, perpendicular to the terminator. But this expectation, albeit intuitive, is false. Because of perspective.
Actually, far be it from me to argue with one of my RE brethren, but actually the moon tilt illusion is, as the name suggests, an illusion.#
When you observe the effect you can stretch a piece of string from the moon, perpendicular to the terminator, and you'll see that contrary to the way it appears there is a straight line between the moon and sun
It's well explained in this video.



It's a failure of perception caused by the lack of context when observing objects that far away and far apart.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2020, 06:21:45 PM »
You fail to understand that there is not really a "tilt". The Moon appears exactly the way it's supposed to appear. You intuitively expect to be able to draw a straight line from the Moon to the position of the Sun in the sky, perpendicular to the terminator. But this expectation, albeit intuitive, is false. Because of perspective.
Actually, far be it from me to argue with one of my RE brethren, but actually the moon tilt illusion is, as the name suggests, an illusion.#
When you observe the effect you can stretch a piece of string from the moon, perpendicular to the terminator, and you'll see that contrary to the way it appears there is a straight line between the moon and sun

Indeed, by "straight line" I meant a line that appears straight on a 2d projection such as a photograph.

The important point being that there is no need to explain how a tilt happens, because there is no tilt - as you rightly said, it's just the illusion of a tilt.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2020, 02:55:20 PM »
Why does Tom have an obsession with perspective? He has still not explained how he would measure the size and shape of the earth.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2020, 08:19:28 PM »
None of the explanations above, or the video above, tell us how something can tilt to perspective without us seeing different sides of it. Distance has nothing to do with it. It will occur at all scales.



Applying the same to the Moon's day and night, we see that the observation of the Moon at 45 degrees is the same at all distances:



So again, why don't different observers see different sides of the Full Moon?



E8, E7, and E6 should all see different parts of the Moon's day and night, as they are looking at Moon at different angles. They should see different parts of the Full Moon.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 10:03:28 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2020, 09:56:39 PM »
None of the explanations above, or the video above, tell us how something can tilt to perspective without us seeing different sides of it. Distance has nothing to do with it. It will occur at all scales.



I honestly can't tell what you are trying to prove with your Rubik's cubes lines, and how it relates to the Moon tilt illusion. Which is just that: an illusion. There is no problem with the way the Moon appears to us in the night sky.
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #29 on: Today at 03:38:57 PM »
None of the explanations above, or the video above, tell us how something can tilt to perspective
I don’t think the tilt is because of perspective.
Not in the same way that crepuscular rays appearing to emanate from a source is because of perspective.

The moon tilt illusion is...well, an illusion. It’s a failure of perception, just like in the video I posted the photo of the 3 cars is. We are used to things getting smaller as they get further away, if they don’t then our brain tries to understand what’s going on and we perceive the cars as getting bigger.

With the moon tilt illusion we perceive that the terminator points in a different direction to where the sun is. It looks like the line perpendicular to the terminator points upwards, but if you stretch string out in that direction you find it does indeed point at the sun.

Our brains often need context to make sense of things and with that missing we can perceive things incorrectly. That is what causes this illusion.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #30 on: Today at 05:12:31 PM »
Distance has nothing to do with it. It will occur at all scales.


So, if distance has nothing to do with it, then pick a distance and illustrate that only, rather than placing a selection of dummy Moons at varying distances.

Note that the observer CANNOT see a 90 and a 45 Moon at the same time. In reality, the two will be separated by 3.5 days approx., and the phase will be consistent with that time difference, every time, month after month.

Your illustration shows both, but they cannot occur simultaneously


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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #31 on: Today at 05:15:05 PM »
Applying the same to the Moon's day and night, we see that the observation of the Moon at 45 degrees is the same at all distances:



So again, why don't different observers see different sides of the Full Moon?

What has the full Moon got to do with this illustration? But ...

Why? The different observers are not far enough apart.





E8, E7, and E6 should all see different parts of the Moon's day and night, as they are looking at Moon at different angles. They should see different parts of the Full Moon.

There is no "day and night" of the Moon when it is in Full Moon phase. But...

The diagram is not to scale. If it were, you would see that the movement of observer(s) between E6 and E8 would not be enough to give them a view of "different parts" of it ....
« Last Edit: Today at 05:18:27 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #32 on: Today at 06:18:56 PM »
Tom; conventional wisdom holds that the movement of observers on Earth is appreciably faster, in rotational terms, than the movement of the Moon, so your diagrams which show a Moon moving around the Earth are misplaced;

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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: RE Lunar Phases With Extreme Perspective Changes
« Reply #33 on: Today at 06:38:22 PM »
Interestingly, Tom posted then removed this diagram:


Maybe because it could be used to show that the actual angle difference between the blue and red lines is quite small?
Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.