[Benjamin Franklin]

in all my years discussing the shape of the earth, I've never found any valid evidence for Round Earth Theory. Please present it if you have it.

Oh really? OK cool

• Thousands of photographs, being produced every 10 minutes, of the ENTIRE globe (not just stitched together) https://himawari8.nict.go.jp/ I can literally look out my window and see the weather this satelite photo is showing me. 10 minutes seems pretty quick to gather information from ground observation and draw a fake image
• Countless videos of ships disapearing on the horizon. Yes refraction can mean the calculations don't match the observation (some times stuff is visible that shouldnt be), but they can't explain the opposite (flat earth says all the stuff should be visible, but clearly isnt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKF7D7XsyTA&t=2s

I have countless pictures and videos of my army of Pokemon. If you believe in a Round Earth for these reasons, I can give you the same level of proof that I am a Pokemon Master.

[AATW]

Speaking of animated features, take a look at a few of these and tell me how that quality could make even a remotely convincing Moon landing.

Some footage from Skylab here which I think was earlyish 70s



Those weightless shots with the three guys all in different orientations and overlapping each other would have been very difficult to fake before CGI.

[AATW]

You have devices that are in the sky, out of sight, relaying signals back and forth. I'm not sure why you think this requires orbiting the earth.

It requires them to be in a fixed position relative to my satellite dish, otherwise I would lose signal when they moved - and if you have satellite TV you'll know how if a dish gets knocked slightly you lose signal.

The way that works in the real world is you have satellites in geostationary orbit. In your world what keeps these devices in the sky, what keeps them stationary, how do they stay up there for years at a time?

If they told me it was magic pixies then I wouldn't believe them because I neither believe in magic nor pixies. But satellites have been a think since Sputnik in the 50s.
I have no reason to think they would lie to me about this. Why would they do that? I don't really care how my TV signal gets to me, so long as it does.
Or do you think the satellite TV people are being lied to by...well, in this case it would be the European space agency. Are they pretending to put satellites up there for TV (it was them who launched the Sky satellites) and they're really using these "devices" you have no evidence for?

[limprichard]

why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

The space race was between 1957 - 1975. Photoshop debuted in 1987.

Explain how the fake images were created.

You do realize that the tools in Photoshop are just digital replications of the tools and processes that have existed in art studios for many years. Slice, erase, burn, sponge, smudge, et cetera.

Not only would they have to have faked them to a level that would not have been detectable then, they would need them to stand up to the scrutiny of investigative techniques decades into the future (ie now). Difficult to predict technology available decades ahead. If they had faked them back then, we would know now, the moon landing conspiracists are nearly as pedantic as the Flat Earth conspiracists, they would have proved them fake.

[Benjamin Franklin]

It requires them to be in a fixed position relative to my satellite dish, otherwise I would lose signal when they moved - and if you have satellite TV you'll know how if a dish gets knocked slightly you lose signal.

My phone is constantly moving, (always) allegedly communicating with all types of towers and satellites. And yet, I don't lose signal when my device moves slightly. Clearly your "things have to be in a fixed position" theory doesn't hold up. Is wireless communication really that new of an idea to you, or are you intentionally refusing to acknowledge that the technology exists in a much better shape than you describe?

If they told me it was magic pixies then I wouldn't believe them because I neither believe in magic nor pixies. But satellites have been a think since Sputnik in the 50s.

So if someone told you that the Russians had magic pixies in the 1950's then you'd believe in magic pixies? Got it.

I don't really care how my TV signal gets to me, so long as it does.

Exactly. You could easily be told it's devices orbiting a round earth, or it could be anything and it wouldn't matter to you or anyone else. I'm glad that's gotten through.

Or do you think the satellite TV people are being lied to by...well, in this case it would be the European space agency. Are they pretending to put satellites up there for TV (it was them who launched the Sky satellites) and they're really using these "devices" you have no evidence for?

I'm not going to speculate who is lying to who on a continent I don't live on and in relationships I don't know. That's not how science works. We act on evidence, not speculation.

[Tontogary]

It requires them to be in a fixed position relative to my satellite dish, otherwise I would lose signal when they moved - and if you have satellite TV you'll know how if a dish gets knocked slightly you lose signal.

My phone is constantly moving, (always) allegedly communicating with all types of towers and satellites. And yet, I don't lose signal when my device moves slightly. Clearly your "things have to be in a fixed position" theory doesn't hold up. Is wireless communication really that new of an idea to you, or are you intentionally refusing to acknowledge that the technology exists in a much better shape than you describe?

If they told me it was magic pixies then I wouldn't believe them because I neither believe in magic nor pixies. But satellites have been a think since Sputnik in the 50s.

So if someone told you that the Russians had magic pixies in the 1950's then you'd believe in magic pixies? Got it.

I don't really care how my TV signal gets to me, so long as it does.

Exactly. You could easily be told it's devices orbiting a round earth, or it could be anything and it wouldn't matter to you or anyone else. I'm glad that's gotten through.

Or do you think the satellite TV people are being lied to by...well, in this case it would be the European space agency. Are they pretending to put satellites up there for TV (it was them who launched the Sky satellites) and they're really using these "devices" you have no evidence for?

I'm not going to speculate who is lying to who on a continent I don't live on and in relationships I don't know. That's not how science works. We act on evidence, not speculation.

Really? Do you have a satellite dish stuck to your phone?
Do you know how your phone works. at all?

Your phone does not cvommunicate (as in a 2 way dialogue) with a satellite, the only thing your phone might do with a satellite is to listen and receive GPS signals to work out its position.

Your comma is by a mast, using a different frequency, and a much shorter range.

Unless you have an iridium phone, which uses a different type of satellite, for communicating. Do you know what you have? I would guess not.

[SiDawg]

Ben yer kinda missing the point(s)...

If you bump a satellite dish out of alignment, you don't get TV any more. You're assuming a satellite dish works like a phone does, and because you move your phone around then the satellite dish can be moved around... The whole point, is that it CAN'T be moved around. Are you disputing that? Are you saying you have a satellite dish and have tried moving it and it still works?? Are you saying that satellite TV technicians are ALSO in on the conspiracy?

The other point was: if satellite TV does not use orbiting satellites, and instead uses ground based antennas... Why would they lie about that??? I mean, you said yourself, your phone works from ground based antennas... People are happy knowing that yes? If satellite TV companies COULD use ground based antennas economically and reach the same number of people around the world, then why would they disguise that?? They would just say "hey check out our TV service" and people would use it... The only possible reason I can think of is that they're hoping that people will be amazed by these fake orbiting satellites and go "ooo! That sounds fancy! sign me up!" and that people are so incredibly impressed by that that they're willing to fork out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a satellite dish plus installation... I mean sure you can skim a bit off the top and make some money that way but holy crap you're opening yourself up to a lot of risk when someone out of your millions of subscribers with a modicum of intelligence easily discovers the ruse...

[Spycrab]

Well, we're talking about photoshop, keyword being photo. You have to have something to edit.
Presumably what we're actually looking for is CGI, as according to y'all, said photos were never taken and indeed fabricated from scratch.
thing is though, 2D CGI was only around in the dwindling years of the space race, 1973, and proper 3D CGI wan't used until after the conflict ended in 1976.
On a side note, it looked like garbage. Ever seen the show Reboot? First CGI animated TV show. It's not realistic at all.
Unless of course you want to add more convoluted extra steps to the conspiratorial workings of NASA and crew, with them secretly creating incredible technology several years before its time and keeping it a secret from the whole world.

[9 out of 10 doctors agree]

If they told me it was magic pixies then I wouldn't believe them because I neither believe in magic nor pixies. But satellites have been a thing since Sputnik in the 50s.

So if someone told you that the Russians had magic pixies in the 1950's then you'd believe in magic pixies? Got it.

Nice strawman there.

It's heartbreaking to find out that Santa isn't real, but it can be accepted knowing that it was your parents the whole time. That's what you need to tell us: if Santa (satellites) isn't real then who fills your stocking (how does satellite TV work) on Christmas?

[Benjamin Franklin]

Really? Do you have a satellite dish stuck to your phone?
Do you know how your phone works. at all?

Your phone does not communicate (as in a 2 way dialogue) with a satellite, the only thing your phone might do with a satellite is to listen and receive GPS signals to work out its position.

Your comma is by a mast, using a different frequency, and a much shorter range.

Unless you have an iridium phone, which uses a different type of satellite, for communicating. Do you know what you have? I would guess not.

My phone can manage two-way communication without a satellite dish while moving. Are you claiming that cell phone technology is that much superior to satellite technology? Well then it's pretty obvious how you're getting your through one of many technologies better than what your describe.

If you bump a satellite dish out of alignment, you don't get TV any more. You're assuming a satellite dish works like a phone does, and because you move your phone around then the satellite dish can be moved around... The whole point, is that it CAN'T be moved around. Are you disputing that? Are you saying you have a satellite dish and have tried moving it and it still works?? Are you saying that satellite TV technicians are ALSO in on the conspiracy?

I'm not the one making these claims about satellite television. Why should I have to go smack a satellite dish because you seem to think that the only way to get television is through unmovable an unmovable dish, when it's clear I can get it out of a much smaller movable phone. Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television. I'm not the one claiming a vast conspiracy here, you are by trying to loop in cable repairmen in some silly strawman argument.

The other point was: if satellite TV does not use orbiting satellites, and instead uses ground based antennas... Why would they lie about that??? I mean, you said yourself, your phone works from ground based antennas... People are happy knowing that yes? If satellite TV companies COULD use ground based antennas economically and reach the same number of people around the world, then why would they disguise that?? They would just say "hey check out our TV service" and people would use it... The only possible reason I can think of is that they're hoping that people will be amazed by these fake orbiting satellites and go "ooo! That sounds fancy! sign me up!" and that people are so incredibly impressed by that that they're willing to fork out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a satellite dish plus installation... I mean sure you can skim a bit off the top and make some money that way but holy crap you're opening yourself up to a lot of risk when someone out of your millions of subscribers with a modicum of intelligence easily discovers the ruse...

I just claimed you don't need to be in a fixed position to receive TV. If someone tells you they are selling you satellite TV, how am I supposed to know how you are getting TV? You're closer, go find out yourself. I'm not going to speculate wildly on the technical details of a TV service on the other side of the ocean from me.

It's heartbreaking to find out that Santa isn't real, but it can be accepted knowing that it was your parents the whole time. That's what you need to tell us: if Santa (satellites) isn't real then who fills your stocking (how does satellite TV work) on Christmas?

I don't have TV, I use Netflix like a normal person. How should I know how you get TV? There are many different technologies that can transmit TV, and as we've established, that do not require a fixed, rigid location.

[SiDawg]

I think you're confusing "strawman arguments" for simply trying to dumb things down in to a number of easy to understand steps.

It's not as simple as "phones are better technology because you can move"... The bandwidth involved with mobile phones pales in comparison with getting 100 separate video channels sent to your television to anywhere in the world with perfect reception. Terrestrial television does provide analogue or digital video... but can you pick up Korean TV from the US? No. You would need repeaters. Oh and we have to cross the ocean... so you want to put that through a cable... then transmit again. etc. At some point, the cost of transmitting the same video signal to every person on earth is ridiculously high.

Besides, even your wonderful magic mobile phone: there's still plenty of black spots yes? It costs BILLIONS of dollars to create a network of mobile towers... There are billions of them everywhere. Now enter an elevator... damn signal died. So if an elevator can kill your signal, a mountain can yes? Gee if only there was a way to get signal from the sky... Oh yeah! That's right, there is.

Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television

Again, a phone is not a TV... But yes, there are a number of ways to get TV that don't require a dish. But dishes do exist! You have seen these dishes yes? Are you disputing that they need to be in a certain position to work? That's basically what you're saying right, but you're neither willing to accept that as true or actually put effort in to seeing that it is true because "why should i when i can use a phone"... i mean, what?? Talk about strawman. That has absolutely no connection, you're talking about two separate points. We're talking about DISHES.... regardless of your personal preference of how to watch television, they do exist! You can see them with your own eyes!

I mean hell i actually agree with you: i'm surprised satellite TV companies can make any money any more when people can just stream live TV anywhere in the world on existing infrastructure... i'm sure they will die out soon enough, but hopefully not soon enough to be able to prove to you flat earthers that they DO exist for a reason, the satellite technician is not in on a globe earth conspiracy, there ARE satellites over head.

[AATW]

The only possible reason I can think of is that they're hoping that people will be amazed by these fake orbiting satellites and go "ooo! That sounds fancy! sign me up!" and that people are so incredibly impressed by that that they're willing to fork out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a satellite dish plus installation...

I don't think anyone cares about where it came from, they just care about the content.
It's worth noting that satellite TV pre-dates the internet, or the prevalence of it at least. It's only in the last decade that people have had fast enough internet connections for Netflix to be possible.

Sky don't actually charge for the initial installation or the hardware so if they are faking all this and the signal doesn't come from a satellite they are wasting a LOT of money doing all these installations.
And I know from personal experience how precisely the dish has to be aligned, when my neighbour put some scaffolding up it blocked my signal and I had no satellite TV till he moved it for me onto his scaffolding while it was up and got someone who knew what they were doing to align it properly.

I suspect satellite TV will die out over the next decade, Sky are already offering dishless subscriptions. I've yet to hear any plausible FE explanation of where these signals are coming from right now if it's not a satellite. The idea that it's some device which is able to hover above a flat earth for years and stay still enough to reliably broadcast a signal which can be received by precisely angled dishes is ludicrous.

[A Concerned Citizen]

why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

Conspiracy quote from Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the UK from 1940-1945:

"From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt (Illuminati founder Adam Weishaupt) to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played … a definitely recognizable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

[jcks]

Do you think putin has the resources to keep pouring money into a program that produces 0 results?

Why are you claiming that the Russian Space Agency produces zero results? National prestige, new technology, economic stimulus. There's loads of reasons to keep giving them money completely irrelevant to the earth's shape.

New technology like what? If they aren't going to space then what area could they possibly be innovating in.

Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape. That was confirmed a long time ago.

[Benjamin Franklin]

New technology like what? If they aren't going to space then what area could they possibly be innovating in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

There's a list of things that aren't going to space that NASA has claimed credit for.

Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape.

Good, so we agree the shape of the earth is irrelevant to why space agency's are funded.

It's not as simple as "phones are better technology because you can move"... The bandwidth involved with mobile phones pales in comparison with getting 100 separate video channels sent to your television to anywhere in the world with perfect reception. Terrestrial television does provide analogue or digital video... but can you pick up Korean TV from the US? No. You would need repeaters. Oh and we have to cross the ocean... so you want to put that through a cable... then transmit again. etc. At some point, the cost of transmitting the same video signal to every person on earth is ridiculously high.

Besides, even your wonderful magic mobile phone: there's still plenty of black spots yes? It costs BILLIONS of dollars to create a network of mobile towers... There are billions of them everywhere. Now enter an elevator... damn signal died. So if an elevator can kill your signal, a mountain can yes? Gee if only there was a way to get signal from the sky... Oh yeah! That's right, there is.

Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television

Again, a phone is not a TV... But yes, there are a number of ways to get TV that don't require a dish. But dishes do exist! You have seen these dishes yes? Are you disputing that they need to be in a certain position to work? That's basically what you're saying right, but you're neither willing to accept that as true or actually put effort in to seeing that it is true because "why should i when i can use a phone"... i mean, what?? Talk about strawman. That has absolutely no connection, you're talking about two separate points. We're talking about DISHES.... regardless of your personal preference of how to watch television, they do exist! You can see them with your own eyes!

I mean hell i actually agree with you: i'm surprised satellite TV companies can make any money any more when people can just stream live TV anywhere in the world on existing infrastructure... i'm sure they will die out soon enough, but hopefully not soon enough to be able to prove to you flat earthers that they DO exist for a reason, the satellite technician is not in on a globe earth conspiracy, there ARE satellites over head.

Your misunderstandings about television aside, I'm glad you agree that it's very possible to get television in methods besides the hyper-specific theory posited by Round Earthers. Hence, the fact that people get television from a fixed dish is in no way indicative of the shape of the earth.

Really, it shouldn't have taken this long to demonstrate that the facts that you can watch Jeopardy, and that someone guy from your television said it's from satellites, doesn't mean the earth is round. We need evidence, not day-time soap operas.

[AATW]

Really, it shouldn't have taken this long to demonstrate that the facts that you can watch Jeopardy, and that someone guy from your television said it's from satellites, doesn't mean the earth is round.

Other way around. The fact that the earth is round means that you can watch Jeopardy from a satellite.

We need evidence, not day-time soap operas.

You need evidence other than the last 400 years of science and the whole space industry in multiple countries who all claim to put stuff into space and take photos and film from space?
If you're going to cling to conspiracy theories and flat earth belief which flies in the face of all modern science then it's you who needs to provide some evidence of that.

[inquisitive]

New technology like what? If they aren't going to space then what area could they possibly be innovating in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

There's a list of things that aren't going to space that NASA has claimed credit for.

Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape.

Good, so we agree the shape of the earth is irrelevant to why space agency's are funded.

It's not as simple as "phones are better technology because you can move"... The bandwidth involved with mobile phones pales in comparison with getting 100 separate video channels sent to your television to anywhere in the world with perfect reception. Terrestrial television does provide analogue or digital video... but can you pick up Korean TV from the US? No. You would need repeaters. Oh and we have to cross the ocean... so you want to put that through a cable... then transmit again. etc. At some point, the cost of transmitting the same video signal to every person on earth is ridiculously high.

Besides, even your wonderful magic mobile phone: there's still plenty of black spots yes? It costs BILLIONS of dollars to create a network of mobile towers... There are billions of them everywhere. Now enter an elevator... damn signal died. So if an elevator can kill your signal, a mountain can yes? Gee if only there was a way to get signal from the sky... Oh yeah! That's right, there is.

Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television

Again, a phone is not a TV... But yes, there are a number of ways to get TV that don't require a dish. But dishes do exist! You have seen these dishes yes? Are you disputing that they need to be in a certain position to work? That's basically what you're saying right, but you're neither willing to accept that as true or actually put effort in to seeing that it is true because "why should i when i can use a phone"... i mean, what?? Talk about strawman. That has absolutely no connection, you're talking about two separate points. We're talking about DISHES.... regardless of your personal preference of how to watch television, they do exist! You can see them with your own eyes!

I mean hell i actually agree with you: i'm surprised satellite TV companies can make any money any more when people can just stream live TV anywhere in the world on existing infrastructure... i'm sure they will die out soon enough, but hopefully not soon enough to be able to prove to you flat earthers that they DO exist for a reason, the satellite technician is not in on a globe earth conspiracy, there ARE satellites over head.

Your misunderstandings about television aside, I'm glad you agree that it's very possible to get television in methods besides the hyper-specific theory posited by Round Earthers. Hence, the fact that people get television from a fixed dish is in no way indicative of the shape of the earth.

Really, it shouldn't have taken this long to demonstrate that the facts that you can watch Jeopardy, and that someone guy from your television said it's from satellites, doesn't mean the earth is round. We need evidence, not day-time soap operas.

There is no doubt about the design, construction and use of satellites for communication, broadcasting and navigation.  Proven.

[Benjamin Franklin]

Other way around. The fact that the earth is round means that you can watch Jeopardy from a satellite.

So the central argument is "The earth is round because I can watch Jeopardy because the earth is round". Your argument is circular in multiple ways now.

You need evidence other than the last 400 years of science and the whole space industry in multiple countries who all claim to put stuff into space and take photos and film from space?
If you're going to cling to conspiracy theories and flat earth belief which flies in the face of all modern science then it's you who needs to provide some evidence of that.

Why do I need to provide evidence? I'm not the one coming into this thread making insane claims about watching TV proving the shape of the earth. The OP didn't ask for evidence of a flat earth, they asked why certain people and organizations claim a round earth. There's plenty of other threads for your topic, and I'll try and help the mods out by keeping this thread on topic.

There is no doubt about the design, construction and use of satellites for communication, broadcasting and navigation.  Proven.

Great point. Let me try.

There is no doubt about the earth being flat. Proven.

[jcks]

New technology like what? If they aren't going to space then what area could they possibly be innovating in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

There's a list of things that aren't going to space that NASA has claimed credit for.

Oh, I didn't realize the Russian Space Agency was a sub division of NASA.

 

Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape.

Good, so we agree the shape of the earth is irrelevant to why space agency's are funded.

No one has made that statement, where are you getting your information from?

[Tontogary]

Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television[/

Your misunderstandings about television aside, I'm glad you agree that it's very possible to get television in methods besides the hyper-specific theory posited by Round Earthers. Hence, the fact that people get television from a fixed dish is in no way indicative of the shape of the earth.

Really, it shouldn't have taken this long to demonstrate that the facts that you can watch Jeopardy, and that someone guy from your television said it's from satellites, doesn't mean the earth is round. We need evidence, not day-time soap operas.

Really? What better technology exists to get television and communications to places that are not reached by mobile masts and hard cables, and the limited range and bandwidth of terrestrial broadcasts?

When a ship is outside of about 30 miles from land there are no cables, and mobile phone technology doesn’t reach that distance, and there are no long trailing fibre optic cables, how do you think we communicate?
We have a satellite dish, gyro stabilised, to compensate for the ships motion, and this points up to a satellite which provides the voice and data connection we need. If this fails we do not have any connection. If the satellite is obscured by a mast, we lose data connection and voice comms. We need to switch or point the dish at a different satellite.
Please explain how this happens if there are no satellites. You must know how it happens to be able to say we are lying. In fact behind able to respond and post on this forum requires a satellite connection to allow me to do so when we are many hundreds of miles from land.

And guess what, there are no mobile masts floating around the ocean!

Some ships have satellite television that works in the same way. If not pointing at a satellite, there is no tv. Point the dish at a satellite, and hey presto, a picture appears. Just to make it clear in case you missed my earlier comment, we have no cables attached to the ship, no Wi-fi signal, and no mobile signal, and no terrestrial tv signal. How does that work?