The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Globeman on May 05, 2018, 07:57:19 AM

Title: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Globeman on May 05, 2018, 07:57:19 AM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 05, 2018, 08:32:42 AM
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tontogary on May 05, 2018, 09:08:04 AM
But the Wiki is not logical (is it ever??)

There is quote attributed to LBJ way before he became president that opines that control of space is control of the world.

The Wiki says that NASA has faked space travel only, not that space travel is impossible, and Nasa is not trying to convince anyone of the shape of the world, only to fake space travel.

If Nasa has faked space travel, then they have not been to space and (presumably) no one has, therefore there is no control of space, and therefore the world, then why fake space travel?
Space travel would mean actual control of the world, (if you believe the far fetched quote from LBJ), and as no one has been into space, why spend billions of dollars faking something you cannot do, and cannot be achievable, and has not achieved what you thought it might, i.e. control of the world?

Unless one is deluded enough to think Nasa, and the US has control of the world? In which case they can reverse global warming, if they wish, and hold the rest of the world to ransom much more effectively by promising to fix any climate issues a region may have.

Surely actual control of space would be a greater prize other than faking it. In any case the US does not have the monopoly on space unless you have noticed, so the conspiracy has not worked.

In any event the use of the quote by LBJ is useless and circulatory to the argument the Wiki is trying to uphold....
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Globeman on May 05, 2018, 09:39:36 AM
But the Wiki is not logical (is it ever??)

There is quote attributed to LBJ way before he became president that opines that control of space is control of the world.

The Wiki says that NASA has faked space travel only, not that space travel is impossible, and Nasa is not trying to convince anyone of the shape of the world, only to fake space travel.

If Nasa has faked space travel, then they have not been to space and (presumably) no one has, therefore there is no control of space, and therefore the world, then why fake space travel?
Space travel would mean actual control of the world, (if you believe the far fetched quote from LBJ), and as no one has been into space, why spend billions of dollars faking something you cannot do, and cannot be achievable, and has not achieved what you thought it might, i.e. control of the world?

Unless one is deluded enough to think Nasa, and the US has control of the world? In which case they can reverse global warming, if they wish, and hold the rest of the world to ransom much more effectively by promising to fix any climate issues a region may have.

Surely actual control of space would be a greater prize other than faking it. In any case the US does not have the monopoly on space unless you have noticed, so the conspiracy has not worked.

In any event the use of the quote by LBJ is useless and circulatory to the argument the Wiki is trying to uphold....

Just a simple reply would have sufficed  ::)
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tontogary on May 05, 2018, 10:16:17 AM
But the Wiki is not logical (is it ever??)

There is quote attributed to LBJ way before he became president that opines that control of space is control of the world.

The Wiki says that NASA has faked space travel only, not that space travel is impossible, and Nasa is not trying to convince anyone of the shape of the world, only to fake space travel.

If Nasa has faked space travel, then they have not been to space and (presumably) no one has, therefore there is no control of space, and therefore the world, then why fake space travel?
Space travel would mean actual control of the world, (if you believe the far fetched quote from LBJ), and as no one has been into space, why spend billions of dollars faking something you cannot do, and cannot be achievable, and has not achieved what you thought it might, i.e. control of the world?

Unless one is deluded enough to think Nasa, and the US has control of the world? In which case they can reverse global warming, if they wish, and hold the rest of the world to ransom much more effectively by promising to fix any climate issues a region may have.

Surely actual control of space would be a greater prize other than faking it. In any case the US does not have the monopoly on space unless you have noticed, so the conspiracy has not worked.

In any event the use of the quote by LBJ is useless and circulatory to the argument the Wiki is trying to uphold....

Just a simple reply would have sufficed  ::)

Sorry i was replying to Pete, as the normal response to questions like the OPs is to post a link to the Wiki, in the hope that it answers all questions, when in fact, to a free thinking individual, and anyone with an inquisitive mind the Wiki has almost no answers.

So my point still stands, that the Wiki does not answer the OP, and is less than adequate in explaining the conspiracy theory, or the reasons behind it.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Globeman on May 05, 2018, 10:26:43 AM
But the Wiki is not logical (is it ever??)

There is quote attributed to LBJ way before he became president that opines that control of space is control of the world.

The Wiki says that NASA has faked space travel only, not that space travel is impossible, and Nasa is not trying to convince anyone of the shape of the world, only to fake space travel.

If Nasa has faked space travel, then they have not been to space and (presumably) no one has, therefore there is no control of space, and therefore the world, then why fake space travel?
Space travel would mean actual control of the world, (if you believe the far fetched quote from LBJ), and as no one has been into space, why spend billions of dollars faking something you cannot do, and cannot be achievable, and has not achieved what you thought it might, i.e. control of the world?

Unless one is deluded enough to think Nasa, and the US has control of the world? In which case they can reverse global warming, if they wish, and hold the rest of the world to ransom much more effectively by promising to fix any climate issues a region may have.

Surely actual control of space would be a greater prize other than faking it. In any case the US does not have the monopoly on space unless you have noticed, so the conspiracy has not worked.

In any event the use of the quote by LBJ is useless and circulatory to the argument the Wiki is trying to uphold....

Just a simple reply would have sufficed  ::)

Sorry i was replying to Pete, as the normal response to questions like the OPs is to post a link to the Wiki, in the hope that it answers all questions, when in fact, to a free thinking individual, and anyone with an inquisitive mind the Wiki has almost no answers.

So my point still stands, that the Wiki does not answer the OP, and is less than adequate in explaining the conspiracy theory, or the reasons behind it.

Aaaah yes I see now  ;D
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jimbob on May 05, 2018, 10:42:51 AM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.
Note: Not just our government but America's, Russia's and China's. This conspiracy would require tremendous cooperation between them and if the media is to be believed, they aren’t exactly all best buddies. Even if for the sake of argument they are all sleeping together, I doubt they would be competent enough to pull it off (with the exception of Putin). Our Government definately couldnt as they seem to be struggling to hold things together......dont get me started.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 05, 2018, 12:01:59 PM
If Nasa has faked space travel, then they have not been to space and (presumably) no one has, therefore there is no control of space, and therefore the world, then why fake space travel?
Space travel would mean actual control of the world, (if you believe the far fetched quote from LBJ), and as no one has been into space, why spend billions of dollars faking something you cannot do, and cannot be achievable, and has not achieved what you thought it might, i.e. control of the world?

They probably believe lying is good enough and that the rest of the world won't call their bluff. So the US has an imaginary power boost to it's military because everyone thinks we're in space, when in reality we're just spending millions of dollars a year to keep up the facade.

Funny, that having fake control over space did nothing to give us control over the world.  North Korea still threatened us with ballistic missiles, Russia hacked our elections, 9/11 still happened (hesistant to mention this one as it can just be written off as another conspiracy). All of these things would be silly thing to do against a nation who controls space and thus the world. And yet other nations continue to disrespect our supposed authority.

Just what kind of military dominance are we paying for?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tontogary on May 05, 2018, 12:30:48 PM
If Nasa has faked space travel, then they have not been to space and (presumably) no one has, therefore there is no control of space, and therefore the world, then why fake space travel?
Space travel would mean actual control of the world, (if you believe the far fetched quote from LBJ), and as no one has been into space, why spend billions of dollars faking something you cannot do, and cannot be achievable, and has not achieved what you thought it might, i.e. control of the world?

They probably believe lying is good enough and that the rest of the world won't call their bluff. So the US has an imaginary power boost to it's military because everyone thinks we're in space, when in reality we're just spending millions of dollars a year to keep up the facade.

Funny, that having fake control over space did nothing to give us control over the world.  North Korea still threatened us with ballistic missiles, Russia hacked our elections, 9/11 still happened (hesistant to mention this one as it can just be written off as another conspiracy). All of these things would be silly thing to do against a nation who controls space and thus the world. And yet other nations continue to disrespect our supposed authority.

Just what kind of military dominance are we paying for?

It would make sense to admit the lying and spend the money instead on Defense or a strong missile Defense......
But wait, with space travel not possible, doesn’t that make the threat of ICBMs moot?
Why then have regiments of them to defend against regiments of similar from Russia, China (and more recently, N.Korea) when if space travel was not possible, there would be no threat from the other nations.......
A more robust conventional military would be needed, and all the money saved on those “fake” space programmes could build dozens of aircraft carriers, employ hundreds of thousands of military, as well as civilian people, and create millions of jobs to boost the economy, and keep a population happy, and vote the same politicians in power.
So remind me again of the pros for a fake space travel programme?
As opposed to coming clean and having the money to be the most dominant power on earth, and keep the power hungry politicians in power.....
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: _InsertUsernameHere_ on May 05, 2018, 02:55:17 PM
The government is made up of people like us. Why would they spend trillions to make and cover up the 'lie' that the world is round when there is no gain at all from it??
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 05, 2018, 03:50:18 PM
The funniest assertion is that all the scientists in NASA haven't figured out the true shape of the earth but a handful of conspiracy nuts have cracked it.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: limprichard on May 05, 2018, 06:12:07 PM
The funniest assertion is that all the scientists in NASA haven't figured out the true shape of the earth but a handful of conspiracy nuts have cracked it.
The biggest proof for me against the conspiracy theory, is as someone mentioned, that every one talks about NASA without considering the other space faring nations. The Soviets have a space program, China has a space program, why would they align themselves with the USA.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 05, 2018, 07:10:56 PM
spend trillions
no gain

Trillions of dollars (your estimation, not mine) doesn't count as potential gain?

The biggest proof for me against the conspiracy theory, is as someone mentioned, that every one talks about NASA without considering the other space faring nations. The Soviets have a space program, China has a space program, why would they align themselves with the USA.
Because those working in space agencies aren't motivated by geopolitical concerns, and are instead typically more concerned with securing and protecting their funding and cushy jobs. This is true regardless of nation.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: limprichard on May 05, 2018, 08:05:22 PM

[/quote]
Because those working in space agencies aren't motivated by geopolitical concerns, and are instead typically more concerned with securing and protecting their funding and cushy jobs. This is true regardless of nation.
[/quote]
You are a bit naive if you think that is how Russia operates. Democratic election? Someone other than Putin having control on things. If Putin said the Earth was flat, the "electorate" would just have to learn to love it....no questions asked.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 05, 2018, 08:25:29 PM
You are a bit naive if you think that is how Russia operates. Democratic election? Someone other than Putin having control on things. If Putin said the Earth was flat, the "electorate" would just have to learn to love it....no questions asked.
Do you think Putin has time in his day to go personally inspect the space agency and verify their work? Does he have the expertise to do that? Or the motivation?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 05, 2018, 08:36:25 PM
NASA didn't put up the satellites which make my Sky TV work, nor did Russia, it was the European space agency.
Is the suggestion that they faked that and are somehow fooling Sky into thinking that their TV signals are broadcast via a satellite?
Or are Sky complicit?
It's all too silly...
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 05, 2018, 08:57:52 PM
I get television from the Sky so the earth is round.
They could tell you the TV was powered by magic pixies, you wouldn't know. I'm not sure what your argument is. I have no way of knowing the relationship of the ESA and Sky TV, how would I have anyway of knowing that?

Rampant speculation isn't an argument.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 05, 2018, 09:22:44 PM
Rampant speculation isn't an argument.
Neither is your straw man stuff. Sky TV doesn't mean the world is round. I didn't say that.
It's actually the other way around. Because the world is round we have Sky, and GPS, and the ISS, and astronauts, and space tourists etc...
If you're going to claim the earth is flat despite all of science and empirical evidence showing that to be wrong and as an extension of that you're going to claim that satellites don't exist then you have to have some explanation for these things. And the FE explanation for these things is, to coin a phrase, rampant speculation with little or no actual evidence.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 05, 2018, 09:50:53 PM
If you're going to claim the earth is flat despite all of science and empirical evidence showing that to be wrong and as an extension of that you're going to claim that satellites don't exist then you have to have some explanation for these things. And the FE explanation for these things is, to coin a phrase, rampant speculation with little or no actual evidence.
First, in all my years discussing the shape of the earth, I've never found any valid evidence for Round Earth Theory. Please present it if you have it.

What do I need to explain? I don't remember claiming satellites don't exist, and I'm not interested in explaining how you get TV either because how the fuck would I know that? You're closer to the TV, you look.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 05, 2018, 10:05:49 PM
First, in all my years discussing the shape of the earth, I've never found any valid evidence for Round Earth Theory. Please present it if you have it.
Well, I'm probably wasting my time but fine, you asked. Where is the bottom of the ship if the earth is flat?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T874RMncnAQ

And of course there's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blue_Marble

Quote
What do I need to explain? I don't remember claiming satellites don't exist
Many flat earthers do not believe that satellites are possible. By definition satellites are orbiting the earth (this remains true if they're in geostationary orbit, in that case they just happen to be going at the right speed to synchronise with the rotation of the earth). I'm not sure how satellites would work were the earth flat, but GPS demonstrably works, Satellite TV demonstrably works. If you believe the earth to be flat you must have some explanation. Just saying "I don't know" is not a particularly satisfactory response.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 05, 2018, 10:12:22 PM
You are a bit naive if you think that is how Russia operates. Democratic election? Someone other than Putin having control on things. If Putin said the Earth was flat, the "electorate" would just have to learn to love it....no questions asked.
Do you think Putin has time in his day to go personally inspect the space agency and verify their work? Does he have the expertise to do that? Or the motivation?

Do you think putin has the resources to keep pouring money into a program that produces 0 results?

I wish someone would pay me to do my job and then not question my methods or expect deliverables.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: SiDawg on May 06, 2018, 01:33:22 AM
in all my years discussing the shape of the earth, I've never found any valid evidence for Round Earth Theory. Please present it if you have it.

Oh really? OK cool

Then there's further evidence to support the hypothesis:


Hmm that's just what I can think of before lunch. As for reasons why the flat earth model is completely wrong... that's a really really long post. But hey this post is probably entirely pointless anyway: thats why this debate section exists, so we can address one problem at a time.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Pickel B Gravel on May 06, 2018, 04:03:55 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: inquisitive on May 06, 2018, 04:51:16 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.
Please tell us how satellite tv works.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 06, 2018, 04:58:07 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

The space race was between 1957 - 1975. Photoshop debuted in 1987.

Explain how the fake images were created.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: limprichard on May 06, 2018, 07:07:02 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.
Hi y'all. I am a typical GENIUS girl who does NOT follow the masses and who does NOT blindly accept what is told to me without EVIDENCE. That being said, I don't believe in a lot of "facts" (the quotations mean they're NOT actual facts) including evolution, the holocaust, and the globular earth HYPOTHESIS.
The space race was between the Russians and the Americans, how do think the Chinese fit in with that? were they just feeling left out.
ps The holocaust happened and anyone who said it didnt............is a piece of work
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 07, 2018, 07:07:21 AM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

Cool. Now if we could just see some evidence of that rather than wild assertions. Thanks.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: ShowmetheProof on May 07, 2018, 12:19:43 PM
I like how TFE theory is built on the Government/Scientists lying to us.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Spycrab on May 07, 2018, 01:18:09 PM
The moon landing would've been physically impossible to fake
CGI wasn't invented until 1976, the moon landing happened in 1969.
The shadows in the photos are parallel, which doesn't happen with studio/earth lighting.
There are retroreflectors on the moon*
Dang, it's almost like we actually went there, and it wasn't a hoax.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment)
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: ShowmetheProof on May 07, 2018, 01:50:44 PM
The moon landing conspiracy has been debunked many times.  It was so easy to debunk it was on Adam Ruins Everything.  If you can debunk it easily in layman's terms, it probably isn't true.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Curious Squirrel on May 07, 2018, 01:54:18 PM
The moon landing would've been physically impossible to fake
CGI wasn't invented until 1976, the moon landing happened in 1969.
The shadows in the photos are parallel, which doesn't happen with studio/earth lighting.
There are retroreflectors on the moon*
Dang, it's almost like we actually went there, and it wasn't a hoax.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment)
It's been posited that the retro-reflectors could be naturally occurring, or (admittedly less seriously) that such a test isn't even possible and is something from the realm of TV and fantasy. The first I assume creates plausibility in some minds, because no records of it prior is just because no one tried, and there are technically examples of such things occurring in nature. But I don't presently recall a 'response' about them beyond those two.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 07, 2018, 06:20:48 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

The space race was between 1957 - 1975. Photoshop debuted in 1987.

Explain how the fake images were created.

You do realize that the tools in Photoshop are just digital replications of the tools and processes that have existed in art studios for many years. Slice, erase, burn, sponge, smudge, et cetera.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: 9 out of 10 doctors agree on May 07, 2018, 06:25:52 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

The space race was between 1957 - 1975. Photoshop debuted in 1987.

Explain how the fake images were created.

You do realize that the tools in Photoshop are just digital replications of the tools and processes that have existed in art studios for many years. Slice, erase, burn, sponge, smudge, et cetera.
Those are tools that were used for paintings and sketches. Film is slightly different from those.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 07, 2018, 06:36:42 PM
You do realize that the tools in Photoshop are just digital replications of the tools and processes that have existed in art studios for many years. Slice, erase, burn, sponge, smudge, et cetera.
Do you actually have any evidence that the moon landings were faked? I've seen a fair but of wild speculation and on other non flat earth sites which also claim this was faked (but don't believe in a flat earth) I've seen a load of spurious things like "how come you can't see the stars in the photos" (exposure levels) and "why aren't the shadows all the same angle" (the landscape wasn't completely flat) and "why is the flag waving" (it isn't, there was a rod along the top so it didn't just hang limp, it just flaps when they screw it into the surface).
These are all spurious objections from people who, frankly, don't know much about the moon landings.
If you want to learn more about the Apollo programme then I can recommend "Man On The Moon" by Andrew Chaikin.
Read that and then come back and tell me that the level of detail in that book could have been realistically faked.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 07, 2018, 07:19:44 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

The space race was between 1957 - 1975. Photoshop debuted in 1987.

Explain how the fake images were created.

You do realize that the tools in Photoshop are just digital replications of the tools and processes that have existed in art studios for many years. Slice, erase, burn, sponge, smudge, et cetera.

And how would you use those techniques to modify a photograph in the real world? Without it looking blatantly obvious.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 07, 2018, 08:19:27 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

The space race was between 1957 - 1975. Photoshop debuted in 1987.

Explain how the fake images were created.

You do realize that the tools in Photoshop are just digital replications of the tools and processes that have existed in art studios for many years. Slice, erase, burn, sponge, smudge, et cetera.

And how would you use those techniques to modify a photograph in the real world? Without it looking blatantly obvious.

The quality of any art piece is primarily dependent on skill of the artist, just as the quality of any Photoshop piece is dependent on the artist's skill.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 07, 2018, 08:54:57 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

The space race was between 1957 - 1975. Photoshop debuted in 1987.

Explain how the fake images were created.

You do realize that the tools in Photoshop are just digital replications of the tools and processes that have existed in art studios for many years. Slice, erase, burn, sponge, smudge, et cetera.

And how would you use those techniques to modify a photograph in the real world? Without it looking blatantly obvious.

The quality of any art piece is primarily dependent on skill of the artist, just as the quality of any Photoshop piece is dependent on the artist's skill.

This is a valid observation but it fails to answer the question.

How could you apply any of those techniques to a photograph without leaving a trace?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: 9 out of 10 doctors agree on May 07, 2018, 09:02:56 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

The space race was between 1957 - 1975. Photoshop debuted in 1987.

Explain how the fake images were created.

You do realize that the tools in Photoshop are just digital replications of the tools and processes that have existed in art studios for many years. Slice, erase, burn, sponge, smudge, et cetera.

And how would you use those techniques to modify a photograph in the real world? Without it looking blatantly obvious.

The quality of any art piece is primarily dependent on skill of the artist, just as the quality of any Photoshop piece is dependent on the artist's skill.
Well, they would need to make animations, with take notoriously long, that totaled some 180 hours of live footage for each of six Moon landings, in only 11 years. Ponder how long the release cycle is for a modern animated 2-hour feature and consider if that's possible.

Speaking of animated features, take a look at a few of these (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animated_feature_films_of_the_1970s) and tell me how that quality could make even a remotely convincing Moon landing.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 07, 2018, 09:12:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T874RMncnAQ
I'm not defending a video I did not make and can not verify the integrity of. I prefer the Scientific Method to posting Youtube videos. Maybe science curriculum's have changed from when I was in school.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blue_Marble
If you just want to post links and not explain we're not going anywhere fast.

Many flat earthers do not believe that satellites are possible. By definition satellites are orbiting the earth (this remains true if they're in geostationary orbit, in that case they just happen to be going at the right speed to synchronise with the rotation of the earth). I'm not sure how satellites would work were the earth flat, but GPS demonstrably works, Satellite TV demonstrably works. If you believe the earth to be flat you must have some explanation. Just saying "I don't know" is not a particularly satisfactory response.
You have devices that are in the sky, out of sight, relaying signals back and forth. I'm not sure why you think this requires orbiting the earth. If the TV installer told you it was run by magic pixies would you discount the "satellites orbiting earth theory" simply because the pixies theory was told to your first?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 07, 2018, 09:12:36 PM
Do you think putin has the resources to keep pouring money into a program that produces 0 results?
Why are you claiming that the Russian Space Agency produces zero results? National prestige, new technology, economic stimulus. There's loads of reasons to keep giving them money completely irrelevant to the earth's shape.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 07, 2018, 09:14:38 PM
in all my years discussing the shape of the earth, I've never found any valid evidence for Round Earth Theory. Please present it if you have it.

Oh really? OK cool
  • Thousands of photographs, being produced every 10 minutes, of the ENTIRE globe (not just stitched together) https://himawari8.nict.go.jp/ I can literally look out my window and see the weather this satelite photo is showing me. 10 minutes seems pretty quick to gather information from ground observation and draw a fake image
  • Countless videos of ships disapearing on the horizon. Yes refraction can mean the calculations don't match the observation (some times stuff is visible that shouldnt be), but they can't explain the opposite (flat earth says all the stuff should be visible, but clearly isnt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKF7D7XsyTA&t=2s  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKF7D7XsyTA&t=2s)
I have countless pictures and videos of my army of Pokemon. If you believe in a Round Earth for these reasons, I can give you the same level of proof that I am a Pokemon Master.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 07, 2018, 09:23:57 PM
Speaking of animated features, take a look at a few of these (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animated_feature_films_of_the_1970s) and tell me how that quality could make even a remotely convincing Moon landing.
Some footage from Skylab here which I think was earlyish 70s

https://youtu.be/00z9hRuVTOk?t=197

Those weightless shots with the three guys all in different orientations and overlapping each other would have been very difficult to fake before CGI.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 07, 2018, 09:32:38 PM
You have devices that are in the sky, out of sight, relaying signals back and forth. I'm not sure why you think this requires orbiting the earth.
It requires them to be in a fixed position relative to my satellite dish, otherwise I would lose signal when they moved - and if you have satellite TV you'll know how if a dish gets knocked slightly you lose signal.

The way that works in the real world is you have satellites in geostationary orbit. In your world what keeps these devices in the sky, what keeps them stationary, how do they stay up there for years at a time?

If they told me it was magic pixies then I wouldn't believe them because I neither believe in magic nor pixies. But satellites have been a think since Sputnik in the 50s.
I have no reason to think they would lie to me about this. Why would they do that? I don't really care how my TV signal gets to me, so long as it does.
Or do you think the satellite TV people are being lied to by...well, in this case it would be the European space agency. Are they pretending to put satellites up there for TV (it was them who launched the Sky satellites) and they're really using these "devices" you have no evidence for?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: limprichard on May 07, 2018, 09:38:10 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

The space race was between 1957 - 1975. Photoshop debuted in 1987.

Explain how the fake images were created.

You do realize that the tools in Photoshop are just digital replications of the tools and processes that have existed in art studios for many years. Slice, erase, burn, sponge, smudge, et cetera.
Not only would they have to have faked them to a level that would not have been detectable then, they would need them to stand up to the scrutiny of investigative techniques decades into the future (ie now). Difficult to predict technology available decades ahead. If they had faked them back then, we would know now, the moon landing conspiracists are nearly as pedantic as the Flat Earth conspiracists, they would have proved them fake.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 07, 2018, 09:41:05 PM
It requires them to be in a fixed position relative to my satellite dish, otherwise I would lose signal when they moved - and if you have satellite TV you'll know how if a dish gets knocked slightly you lose signal.
My phone is constantly moving, (always) allegedly communicating with all types of towers and satellites. And yet, I don't lose signal when my device moves slightly. Clearly your "things have to be in a fixed position" theory doesn't hold up. Is wireless communication really that new of an idea to you, or are you intentionally refusing to acknowledge that the technology exists in a much better shape than you describe?

If they told me it was magic pixies then I wouldn't believe them because I neither believe in magic nor pixies. But satellites have been a think since Sputnik in the 50s.
So if someone told you that the Russians had magic pixies in the 1950's then you'd believe in magic pixies? Got it.

I don't really care how my TV signal gets to me, so long as it does.
Exactly. You could easily be told it's devices orbiting a round earth, or it could be anything and it wouldn't matter to you or anyone else. I'm glad that's gotten through.

Or do you think the satellite TV people are being lied to by...well, in this case it would be the European space agency. Are they pretending to put satellites up there for TV (it was them who launched the Sky satellites) and they're really using these "devices" you have no evidence for?
I'm not going to speculate who is lying to who on a continent I don't live on and in relationships I don't know. That's not how science works. We act on evidence, not speculation.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tontogary on May 07, 2018, 10:59:08 PM
It requires them to be in a fixed position relative to my satellite dish, otherwise I would lose signal when they moved - and if you have satellite TV you'll know how if a dish gets knocked slightly you lose signal.
My phone is constantly moving, (always) allegedly communicating with all types of towers and satellites. And yet, I don't lose signal when my device moves slightly. Clearly your "things have to be in a fixed position" theory doesn't hold up. Is wireless communication really that new of an idea to you, or are you intentionally refusing to acknowledge that the technology exists in a much better shape than you describe?

If they told me it was magic pixies then I wouldn't believe them because I neither believe in magic nor pixies. But satellites have been a think since Sputnik in the 50s.
So if someone told you that the Russians had magic pixies in the 1950's then you'd believe in magic pixies? Got it.

I don't really care how my TV signal gets to me, so long as it does.
Exactly. You could easily be told it's devices orbiting a round earth, or it could be anything and it wouldn't matter to you or anyone else. I'm glad that's gotten through.

Or do you think the satellite TV people are being lied to by...well, in this case it would be the European space agency. Are they pretending to put satellites up there for TV (it was them who launched the Sky satellites) and they're really using these "devices" you have no evidence for?
I'm not going to speculate who is lying to who on a continent I don't live on and in relationships I don't know. That's not how science works. We act on evidence, not speculation.

Really? Do you have a satellite dish stuck to your phone?
Do you know how your phone works. at all?

Your phone does not cvommunicate (as in a 2 way dialogue) with a satellite, the only thing your phone might do with a satellite is to listen and receive GPS signals to work out its position.

Your comma is by a mast, using a different frequency, and a much shorter range.

Unless you have an iridium phone, which uses a different type of satellite, for communicating. Do you know what you have? I would guess not.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: SiDawg on May 08, 2018, 12:50:00 AM
Ben yer kinda missing the point(s)...

If you bump a satellite dish out of alignment, you don't get TV any more. You're assuming a satellite dish works like a phone does, and because you move your phone around then the satellite dish can be moved around... The whole point, is that it CAN'T be moved around. Are you disputing that? Are you saying you have a satellite dish and have tried moving it and it still works?? Are you saying that satellite TV technicians are ALSO in on the conspiracy?

The other point was: if satellite TV does not use orbiting satellites, and instead uses ground based antennas... Why would they lie about that??? I mean, you said yourself, your phone works from ground based antennas... People are happy knowing that yes? If satellite TV companies COULD use ground based antennas economically and reach the same number of people around the world, then why would they disguise that?? They would just say "hey check out our TV service" and people would use it... The only possible reason I can think of is that they're hoping that people will be amazed by these fake orbiting satellites and go "ooo! That sounds fancy! sign me up!" and that people are so incredibly impressed by that that they're willing to fork out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a satellite dish plus installation... I mean sure you can skim a bit off the top and make some money that way but holy crap you're opening yourself up to a lot of risk when someone out of your millions of subscribers with a modicum of intelligence easily discovers the ruse...
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Spycrab on May 08, 2018, 01:28:28 AM
Well, we're talking about photoshop, keyword being photo. You have to have something to edit.
Presumably what we're actually looking for is CGI, as according to y'all, said photos were never taken and indeed fabricated from scratch.
thing is though, 2D CGI was only around in the dwindling years of the space race, 1973, and proper 3D CGI wan't used until after the conflict ended in 1976.
On a side note, it looked like garbage. Ever seen the show Reboot? First CGI animated TV show. It's not realistic at all.
Unless of course you want to add more convoluted extra steps to the conspiratorial workings of NASA and crew, with them secretly creating incredible technology several years before its time and keeping it a secret from the whole world.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: 9 out of 10 doctors agree on May 08, 2018, 01:39:17 AM
If they told me it was magic pixies then I wouldn't believe them because I neither believe in magic nor pixies. But satellites have been a thing since Sputnik in the 50s.
So if someone told you that the Russians had magic pixies in the 1950's then you'd believe in magic pixies? Got it.
Nice strawman there.

It's heartbreaking to find out that Santa isn't real, but it can be accepted knowing that it was your parents the whole time. That's what you need to tell us: if Santa (satellites) isn't real then who fills your stocking (how does satellite TV work) on Christmas?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 08, 2018, 01:56:32 AM
Really? Do you have a satellite dish stuck to your phone?
Do you know how your phone works. at all?

Your phone does not communicate (as in a 2 way dialogue) with a satellite, the only thing your phone might do with a satellite is to listen and receive GPS signals to work out its position.

Your comma is by a mast, using a different frequency, and a much shorter range.

Unless you have an iridium phone, which uses a different type of satellite, for communicating. Do you know what you have? I would guess not.
My phone can manage two-way communication without a satellite dish while moving. Are you claiming that cell phone technology is that much superior to satellite technology? Well then it's pretty obvious how you're getting your through one of many technologies better than what your describe.

If you bump a satellite dish out of alignment, you don't get TV any more. You're assuming a satellite dish works like a phone does, and because you move your phone around then the satellite dish can be moved around... The whole point, is that it CAN'T be moved around. Are you disputing that? Are you saying you have a satellite dish and have tried moving it and it still works?? Are you saying that satellite TV technicians are ALSO in on the conspiracy?
I'm not the one making these claims about satellite television. Why should I have to go smack a satellite dish because you seem to think that the only way to get television is through unmovable an unmovable dish, when it's clear I can get it out of a much smaller movable phone. Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television. I'm not the one claiming a vast conspiracy here, you are by trying to loop in cable repairmen in some silly strawman argument.

The other point was: if satellite TV does not use orbiting satellites, and instead uses ground based antennas... Why would they lie about that??? I mean, you said yourself, your phone works from ground based antennas... People are happy knowing that yes? If satellite TV companies COULD use ground based antennas economically and reach the same number of people around the world, then why would they disguise that?? They would just say "hey check out our TV service" and people would use it... The only possible reason I can think of is that they're hoping that people will be amazed by these fake orbiting satellites and go "ooo! That sounds fancy! sign me up!" and that people are so incredibly impressed by that that they're willing to fork out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a satellite dish plus installation... I mean sure you can skim a bit off the top and make some money that way but holy crap you're opening yourself up to a lot of risk when someone out of your millions of subscribers with a modicum of intelligence easily discovers the ruse...
I just claimed you don't need to be in a fixed position to receive TV. If someone tells you they are selling you satellite TV, how am I supposed to know how you are getting TV? You're closer, go find out yourself. I'm not going to speculate wildly on the technical details of a TV service on the other side of the ocean from me.

It's heartbreaking to find out that Santa isn't real, but it can be accepted knowing that it was your parents the whole time. That's what you need to tell us: if Santa (satellites) isn't real then who fills your stocking (how does satellite TV work) on Christmas?
I don't have TV, I use Netflix like a normal person. How should I know how you get TV? There are many different technologies that can transmit TV, and as we've established, that do not require a fixed, rigid location.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: SiDawg on May 08, 2018, 04:01:25 AM
I think you're confusing "strawman arguments" for simply trying to dumb things down in to a number of easy to understand steps.

It's not as simple as "phones are better technology because you can move"... The bandwidth involved with mobile phones pales in comparison with getting 100 separate video channels sent to your television to anywhere in the world with perfect reception. Terrestrial television does provide analogue or digital video... but can you pick up Korean TV from the US? No. You would need repeaters. Oh and we have to cross the ocean... so you want to put that through a cable... then transmit again. etc. At some point, the cost of transmitting the same video signal to every person on earth is ridiculously high.

Besides, even your wonderful magic mobile phone: there's still plenty of black spots yes? It costs BILLIONS of dollars to create a network of mobile towers... There are billions of them everywhere. Now enter an elevator... damn signal died. So if an elevator can kill your signal, a mountain can yes? Gee if only there was a way to get signal from the sky... Oh yeah! That's right, there is.

Quote
Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television

Again, a phone is not a TV... But yes, there are a number of ways to get TV that don't require a dish. But dishes do exist! You have seen these dishes yes? Are you disputing that they need to be in a certain position to work? That's basically what you're saying right, but you're neither willing to accept that as true or actually put effort in to seeing that it is true because "why should i when i can use a phone"... i mean, what?? Talk about strawman. That has absolutely no connection, you're talking about two separate points. We're talking about DISHES.... regardless of your personal preference of how to watch television, they do exist! You can see them with your own eyes!

I mean hell i actually agree with you: i'm surprised satellite TV companies can make any money any more when people can just stream live TV anywhere in the world on existing infrastructure... i'm sure they will die out soon enough, but hopefully not soon enough to be able to prove to you flat earthers that they DO exist for a reason, the satellite technician is not in on a globe earth conspiracy, there ARE satellites over head.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 08, 2018, 09:20:37 AM
The only possible reason I can think of is that they're hoping that people will be amazed by these fake orbiting satellites and go "ooo! That sounds fancy! sign me up!" and that people are so incredibly impressed by that that they're willing to fork out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a satellite dish plus installation...
I don't think anyone cares about where it came from, they just care about the content.
It's worth noting that satellite TV pre-dates the internet, or the prevalence of it at least. It's only in the last decade that people have had fast enough internet connections for Netflix to be possible.

Sky don't actually charge for the initial installation or the hardware so if they are faking all this and the signal doesn't come from a satellite they are wasting a LOT of money doing all these installations.
And I know from personal experience how precisely the dish has to be aligned, when my neighbour put some scaffolding up it blocked my signal and I had no satellite TV till he moved it for me onto his scaffolding while it was up and got someone who knew what they were doing to align it properly.

I suspect satellite TV will die out over the next decade, Sky are already offering dishless subscriptions. I've yet to hear any plausible FE explanation of where these signals are coming from right now if it's not a satellite. The idea that it's some device which is able to hover above a flat earth for years and stay still enough to reliably broadcast a signal which can be received by precisely angled dishes is ludicrous.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: A Concerned Citizen on May 08, 2018, 09:56:21 AM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

Conspiracy quote from Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the UK from 1940-1945:

"From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt (Illuminati founder Adam Weishaupt) to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played … a definitely recognizable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 08, 2018, 12:10:19 PM
Do you think putin has the resources to keep pouring money into a program that produces 0 results?
Why are you claiming that the Russian Space Agency produces zero results? National prestige, new technology, economic stimulus. There's loads of reasons to keep giving them money completely irrelevant to the earth's shape.

New technology like what? If they aren't going to space then what area could they possibly be innovating in.

Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape. That was confirmed a long time ago.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 08, 2018, 08:55:30 PM
New technology like what? If they aren't going to space then what area could they possibly be innovating in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

There's a list of things that aren't going to space that NASA has claimed credit for.

Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape.
Good, so we agree the shape of the earth is irrelevant to why space agency's are funded.



It's not as simple as "phones are better technology because you can move"... The bandwidth involved with mobile phones pales in comparison with getting 100 separate video channels sent to your television to anywhere in the world with perfect reception. Terrestrial television does provide analogue or digital video... but can you pick up Korean TV from the US? No. You would need repeaters. Oh and we have to cross the ocean... so you want to put that through a cable... then transmit again. etc. At some point, the cost of transmitting the same video signal to every person on earth is ridiculously high.

Besides, even your wonderful magic mobile phone: there's still plenty of black spots yes? It costs BILLIONS of dollars to create a network of mobile towers... There are billions of them everywhere. Now enter an elevator... damn signal died. So if an elevator can kill your signal, a mountain can yes? Gee if only there was a way to get signal from the sky... Oh yeah! That's right, there is.

Quote
Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television

Again, a phone is not a TV... But yes, there are a number of ways to get TV that don't require a dish. But dishes do exist! You have seen these dishes yes? Are you disputing that they need to be in a certain position to work? That's basically what you're saying right, but you're neither willing to accept that as true or actually put effort in to seeing that it is true because "why should i when i can use a phone"... i mean, what?? Talk about strawman. That has absolutely no connection, you're talking about two separate points. We're talking about DISHES.... regardless of your personal preference of how to watch television, they do exist! You can see them with your own eyes!

I mean hell i actually agree with you: i'm surprised satellite TV companies can make any money any more when people can just stream live TV anywhere in the world on existing infrastructure... i'm sure they will die out soon enough, but hopefully not soon enough to be able to prove to you flat earthers that they DO exist for a reason, the satellite technician is not in on a globe earth conspiracy, there ARE satellites over head.

Your misunderstandings about television aside, I'm glad you agree that it's very possible to get television in methods besides the hyper-specific theory posited by Round Earthers. Hence, the fact that people get television from a fixed dish is in no way indicative of the shape of the earth.

Really, it shouldn't have taken this long to demonstrate that the facts that you can watch Jeopardy, and that someone guy from your television said it's from satellites, doesn't mean the earth is round. We need evidence, not day-time soap operas.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 08, 2018, 09:10:10 PM
Really, it shouldn't have taken this long to demonstrate that the facts that you can watch Jeopardy, and that someone guy from your television said it's from satellites, doesn't mean the earth is round.
Other way around. The fact that the earth is round means that you can watch Jeopardy from a satellite.

Quote
We need evidence, not day-time soap operas.
You need evidence other than the last 400 years of science and the whole space industry in multiple countries who all claim to put stuff into space and take photos and film from space?
If you're going to cling to conspiracy theories and flat earth belief which flies in the face of all modern science then it's you who needs to provide some evidence of that.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: inquisitive on May 08, 2018, 09:56:13 PM
New technology like what? If they aren't going to space then what area could they possibly be innovating in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

There's a list of things that aren't going to space that NASA has claimed credit for.

Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape.
Good, so we agree the shape of the earth is irrelevant to why space agency's are funded.



It's not as simple as "phones are better technology because you can move"... The bandwidth involved with mobile phones pales in comparison with getting 100 separate video channels sent to your television to anywhere in the world with perfect reception. Terrestrial television does provide analogue or digital video... but can you pick up Korean TV from the US? No. You would need repeaters. Oh and we have to cross the ocean... so you want to put that through a cable... then transmit again. etc. At some point, the cost of transmitting the same video signal to every person on earth is ridiculously high.

Besides, even your wonderful magic mobile phone: there's still plenty of black spots yes? It costs BILLIONS of dollars to create a network of mobile towers... There are billions of them everywhere. Now enter an elevator... damn signal died. So if an elevator can kill your signal, a mountain can yes? Gee if only there was a way to get signal from the sky... Oh yeah! That's right, there is.

Quote
Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television

Again, a phone is not a TV... But yes, there are a number of ways to get TV that don't require a dish. But dishes do exist! You have seen these dishes yes? Are you disputing that they need to be in a certain position to work? That's basically what you're saying right, but you're neither willing to accept that as true or actually put effort in to seeing that it is true because "why should i when i can use a phone"... i mean, what?? Talk about strawman. That has absolutely no connection, you're talking about two separate points. We're talking about DISHES.... regardless of your personal preference of how to watch television, they do exist! You can see them with your own eyes!

I mean hell i actually agree with you: i'm surprised satellite TV companies can make any money any more when people can just stream live TV anywhere in the world on existing infrastructure... i'm sure they will die out soon enough, but hopefully not soon enough to be able to prove to you flat earthers that they DO exist for a reason, the satellite technician is not in on a globe earth conspiracy, there ARE satellites over head.

Your misunderstandings about television aside, I'm glad you agree that it's very possible to get television in methods besides the hyper-specific theory posited by Round Earthers. Hence, the fact that people get television from a fixed dish is in no way indicative of the shape of the earth.

Really, it shouldn't have taken this long to demonstrate that the facts that you can watch Jeopardy, and that someone guy from your television said it's from satellites, doesn't mean the earth is round. We need evidence, not day-time soap operas.
There is no doubt about the design, construction and use of satellites for communication, broadcasting and navigation.  Proven.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 09, 2018, 12:15:55 AM
Other way around. The fact that the earth is round means that you can watch Jeopardy from a satellite.
So the central argument is "The earth is round because I can watch Jeopardy because the earth is round". Your argument is circular in multiple ways now.

You need evidence other than the last 400 years of science and the whole space industry in multiple countries who all claim to put stuff into space and take photos and film from space?
If you're going to cling to conspiracy theories and flat earth belief which flies in the face of all modern science then it's you who needs to provide some evidence of that.
Why do I need to provide evidence? I'm not the one coming into this thread making insane claims about watching TV proving the shape of the earth. The OP didn't ask for evidence of a flat earth, they asked why certain people and organizations claim a round earth. There's plenty of other threads for your topic, and I'll try and help the mods out by keeping this thread on topic.

There is no doubt about the design, construction and use of satellites for communication, broadcasting and navigation.  Proven.
Great point. Let me try.

There is no doubt about the earth being flat. Proven.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 09, 2018, 12:21:27 AM
New technology like what? If they aren't going to space then what area could they possibly be innovating in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies

There's a list of things that aren't going to space that NASA has claimed credit for.

Oh, I didn't realize the Russian Space Agency was a sub division of NASA.

 
Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape.
Good, so we agree the shape of the earth is irrelevant to why space agency's are funded.

No one has made that statement, where are you getting your information from?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tontogary on May 09, 2018, 12:40:16 AM

Quote
Clearly better technology exists than what you're describing for getting television[/
Your misunderstandings about television aside, I'm glad you agree that it's very possible to get television in methods besides the hyper-specific theory posited by Round Earthers. Hence, the fact that people get television from a fixed dish is in no way indicative of the shape of the earth.

Really, it shouldn't have taken this long to demonstrate that the facts that you can watch Jeopardy, and that someone guy from your television said it's from satellites, doesn't mean the earth is round. We need evidence, not day-time soap operas.

Really? What better technology exists to get television and communications to places that are not reached by mobile masts and hard cables, and the limited range and bandwidth of terrestrial broadcasts?

When a ship is outside of about 30 miles from land there are no cables, and mobile phone technology doesn’t reach that distance, and there are no long trailing fibre optic cables, how do you think we communicate?
We have a satellite dish, gyro stabilised, to compensate for the ships motion, and this points up to a satellite which provides the voice and data connection we need. If this fails we do not have any connection. If the satellite is obscured by a mast, we lose data connection and voice comms. We need to switch or point the dish at a different satellite.
Please explain how this happens if there are no satellites. You must know how it happens to be able to say we are lying. In fact behind able to respond and post on this forum requires a satellite connection to allow me to do so when we are many hundreds of miles from land.

And guess what, there are no mobile masts floating around the ocean!

Some ships have satellite television that works in the same way. If not pointing at a satellite, there is no tv. Point the dish at a satellite, and hey presto, a picture appears. Just to make it clear in case you missed my earlier comment, we have no cables attached to the ship, no Wi-fi signal, and no mobile signal, and no terrestrial tv signal. How does that work?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 09, 2018, 12:45:03 AM
Oh, I didn't realize the Russian Space Agency was a sub division of NASA.
I was demonstrating that space agencies can develop technology besides space travel, and did so. I'm sure the Russians probably invent things too, but I'm not as familiar and don't speak Russian so digging for foreign language sources for a concept already demonstrated is silly.

No one has made that statement, where are you getting your information from?
From this guy who said they space agency's aren't funded to confirm the earth's shape.
Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 09, 2018, 12:51:15 AM
Really? What better technology exists to get television and communications to places that are not reached by mobile masts and hard cables, and the limited range and bandwidth of terrestrial broadcasts?

When a ship is outside of about 30 miles from land there are no cables, and mobile phone technology doesn’t reach that distance, and there are no long trailing fibre optic cables, how do you think we communicate?
We have a satellite dish, gyro stabilised, to compensate for the ships motion, and this points up to a satellite which provides the voice and data connection we need. If this fails we do not have any connection. If the satellite is obscured by a mast, we lose data connection and voice comms. We need to switch or point the dish at a different satellite.
Please explain how this happens if there are no satellites. You must know how it happens to be able to say we are lying. In fact behind able to respond and post on this forum requires a satellite connection to allow me to do so when we are many hundreds of miles from land.

And guess what, there are no mobile masts floating around the ocean!

Some ships have satellite television that works in the same way. If not pointing at a satellite, there is no tv. Point the dish at a satellite, and hey presto, a picture appears. Just to make it clear in case you missed my earlier comment, we have no cables attached to the ship, no Wi-fi signal, and no mobile signal, and no terrestrial tv signal. How does that work?
I don't believe I ever claimed satellites don't exist. I just claimed they are not orbiting the earth as the round earth model describes. I've never doubted the existence of devices outside the human eye that aid in transmitting television signals. Just because you go in detail about some insane scheme you think is happening doesn't make that scheme right. I can claim my graphics card is powered by magic pixies, and type plenty of details about how my computer pixies are on a boat, but that doesn't make my pixie theory right.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tontogary on May 09, 2018, 01:05:43 AM

I don't believe I ever claimed satellites don't exist. I just claimed they are not orbiting the earth as the round earth model describes. I've never doubted the existence of devices outside the human eye that aid in transmitting television signals. Just because you go in detail about some insane scheme you think is happening doesn't make that scheme right. I can claim my graphics card is powered by magic pixies, and type plenty of details about how my computer pixies are on a boat, but that doesn't make my pixie theory right.
[/quote]

I am so glad that you aknowledge the existence of satellites. It is a big step forwards.

So if they are not orbiting a round earth, what do they do? How do they stay in a fixed geostationary place?

As for going into detail about an insane scheme i think is happening, well I can assure you i dont have to think communications is happening, I know, as i am able to post on this site. I wouldn’t be able to if i could not transmit data. By replying to my post and me replying back, (unless we are both in the matrix, and nothing is real), I would suggest is pretty good evidence that there is a data transmission of some description.
We believe it is because the data is being beamed to a Geostationary satellite above us, which in turn relays that data to a ground station, which in turn puts it into the system of high speed data transmission used for the inter web.

What is your explanation? A few basic details would be good.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: SiDawg on May 09, 2018, 01:06:54 AM
Quote
the fact that people get television from a fixed dish is in no way indicative of the shape of the earth.

This seems to be a common problem with flat earthers: you're unable to "connect the dots". Sure, one element in of itself might not prove anything, but there are hundreds of unique categories of evidence, and thousands of pieces of evidence within each category...

But all that's required to believe in a round earth, is a an understanding of gravity. It explains why it's a globe, it explains why we orbit the sun, it explains the path of planets in the sky, all with one very very simple formula. It explains how satellites can orbit the earth, why the moon orbits the earth.

What's required to believe the flat earth? The planets take squigly spiral paths through the sky for an unknown reason, the sun hovers above the flat earth for an unknown reason when everything else is pulled to the earth, the moon is somehow a disc but appears like a perfect sphere that's why it appears upside down in the south, the stars adhere to a bizarre un-demonstrable law of perspective  (neither through direct observation nor mathematics), the sun adheres to the same un-demonstrable law of perspective, there's a global conspiracy involving all space agencies, nobody has been to Antarctica (add them to the conspiracy), ships aren't really navigating how they think they're navigating, nobody knows the true distances between points on the earth even though they know their speed and the time it takes to get places (add them to the conspiracy)... etc...

Time to give up
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 09, 2018, 01:52:45 AM
So if they are not orbiting a round earth, what do they do? How do they stay in a fixed geostationary place?
I've seen aircraft move at many speeds, as well as hold still. There are numerous methods that could be used, and I'm hardly qualified to tell you the exact mechanics of hypothetical aircraft.

We believe it is because the data is being beamed to a Geostationary satellite above us, which in turn relays that data to a ground station, which in turn puts it into the system of high speed data transmission used for the inter web.

What is your explanation? A few basic details would be good.
You want me to explain how the internet works to you? I can tell you my connection uses a series of cables buried in the ground, and the data usually runs to some major city and then back to me. It seems like running all the data up into space, or the upper atmosphere, would really be unnecessary.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: 9 out of 10 doctors agree on May 09, 2018, 02:03:25 AM
So if they are not orbiting a round earth, what do they do? How do they stay in a fixed geostationary place?
I've seen aircraft move at many speeds, as well as hold still. There are numerous methods that could be used, and I'm hardly qualified to tell you the exact mechanics of hypothetical aircraft.
Hmm… rocket equations anyone? I wonder how long those "satellites" have been up.
Quote
We believe it is because the data is being beamed to a Geostationary satellite above us, which in turn relays that data to a ground station, which in turn puts it into the system of high speed data transmission used for the inter web.

What is your explanation? A few basic details would be good.
You want me to explain how the internet works to you? I can tell you my connection uses a series of cables buried in the ground, and the data usually runs to some major city and then back to me. It seems like running all the data up into space, or the upper atmosphere, would really be unnecessary.
A+ strawman. Didn't Tontogary also tell you that those cables would be wildly impractical for a ship that regularly moves between continents?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 09, 2018, 02:06:42 AM
Oh, I didn't realize the Russian Space Agency was a sub division of NASA.
I was demonstrating that space agencies can develop technology besides space travel, and did so. I'm sure the Russians probably invent things too, but I'm not as familiar and don't speak Russian so digging for foreign language sources for a concept already demonstrated is silly.

Sure, but that wasn't a part of my question.

No one has made that statement, where are you getting your information from?
From this guy who said they space agency's aren't funded to confirm the earth's shape.
Also they aren't paid to confirm the earth's shape.

They are NOT paid for the singular purpose of confirming earth's shape. That is exactly what I said in that quote.

So then where did you get the idea that they were funded solely for that purpose? That was my question which you neglected to answer.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tontogary on May 09, 2018, 02:13:01 AM
So if they are not orbiting a round earth, what do they do? How do they stay in a fixed geostationary place?
I've seen aircraft move at many speeds, as well as hold still. There are numerous methods that could be used, and I'm hardly qualified to tell you the exact mechanics of hypothetical aircraft.

We believe it is because the data is being beamed to a Geostationary satellite above us, which in turn relays that data to a ground station, which in turn puts it into the system of high speed data transmission used for the inter web.

What is your explanation? A few basic details would be good.
You want me to explain how the internet works to you? I can tell you my connection uses a series of cables buried in the ground, and the data usually runs to some major city and then back to me. It seems like running all the data up into space, or the upper atmosphere, would really be unnecessary.
I dont ask, and have never have asked how the internet works. I am asking you to explain how, with no cables at this end buried in the ground, no mobile phone coverage, so no mobile internet, how it is I can post data to the internet, when ALL we have for doing so is a satellite dish, pointing to a coordinate in Space that we know, or can find out, and by doing this we have communications and data.

As for Hypothetical aircraft, that is a real jump of the imagination. The satellites stay in the same place for months and years.
To replicate that any “hypothetical aircraft” would need enormous amounts of fuel using todays technology. How is that fuel carried? Or delivered?

Do you not think that if we had the technology to have an aircraft hovering in the atmosphere with a tiny amount of fuel, to replicate the satellites, then we would be able to use the same technology for transporting people around different places on the globe at a fraction of the cost to the environment, as well as to the transport providers?
If we have such technology (and for a FE we must have or the services provided by satellites/Hypothetical aircraft would not work) then we have produced such hypothetical aircraft, and the knowledge would be available to use it in so many other ways.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 09, 2018, 03:20:17 AM
A+ strawman. Didn't Tontogary also tell you that those cables would be wildly impractical for a ship that regularly moves between continents?
I never claimed that ships at sea were using my personal internet connection.  If you're going to interject at least pay attention.

They are NOT paid for the singular purpose of confirming earth's shape. That is exactly what I said in that quote.

So then where did you get the idea that they were funded solely for that purpose? That was my question which you neglected to answer.
I never claimed it was a singular reason for funding. They are funded for a number of reasons I already addressed, and many I have not had to mention.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 09, 2018, 10:13:42 AM
Other way around. The fact that the earth is round means that you can watch Jeopardy from a satellite.
So the central argument is "The earth is round because I can watch Jeopardy because the earth is round". Your argument is circular in multiple ways now.
Did you actually read my post? Highlighted in bold the part you are still ignoring.

Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tumeni on May 09, 2018, 10:40:07 AM
I don't believe I ever claimed satellites don't exist. I just claimed they are not orbiting the earth as the round earth model describes. I've never doubted the existence of devices outside the human eye that aid in transmitting television signals. ...

Here's a video demonstrating the products of Plane Wave Media. In it, you can see a telescope tracking orbital satellites, with the star field moving in the background as the telescope moves across the sky. You can see the output from the telescope, a depiction of the star chart, showing where the telescope is pointing, a view of the telescope as it operates, and a data chart showing attributes of the telescope and its targets.

Or do you think it shows something else? Do you think the manufacturer is tracking them based on something other than global tracks, and they're deceiving us about it? Why would they do that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHIbOAKltoQ
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 09, 2018, 11:38:15 AM
I never claimed it was a singular reason for funding. They are funded for a number of reasons I already addressed, and many I have not had to mention.

Then what was the purpose of this statement?

Quote

Good, so we agree the shape of the earth is irrelevant to why space agency's are funded.
 

If no one mentioned anything about them being paid solely to find out the earth's shape then why mention that?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: TomInAustin on May 09, 2018, 05:45:37 PM
why do you all tell us NASA/Government are lying to us? What possible benefits are there to be gained? Don't tell me they are scared to admit they were wrong as science is always striving to better understand our universe.

They faked space travel during the space race, and when they faked it they made fake images of the earth that the public already believed--a spherical earth. Now NASA and other space agencies are just used as a cover for government leaders and the wealthy elite to take tax money from taxpayers. The money allocated to space agencies go into their pockets.

I'm sure you will have no problem proving that?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 09, 2018, 06:54:52 PM
Did you actually read my post? Highlighted in bold the part you are still ignoring.
You have let to prove a link between watching TV and the earth being round. You keep just stating your premise (this ridiculous orbiting satellite theory) as a fact. I have demonstrated, over and again, that satellites orbiting the earth are not needed for TV.

If no one mentioned anything about them being paid solely to find out the earth's shape then why mention that?
This whole thread is about why people would claim the earth is round despite the reality of it being flat. You don't think the motivation of space agency's funding is relevant to that conversation?

Here's a video demonstrating the products of Plane Wave Media. In it, you can see a telescope tracking orbital satellites, with the star field moving in the background as the telescope moves across the sky. You can see the output from the telescope, a depiction of the star chart, showing where the telescope is pointing, a view of the telescope as it operates, and a data chart showing attributes of the telescope and its targets.

Or do you think it shows something else? Do you think the manufacturer is tracking them based on something other than global tracks, and they're deceiving us about it? Why would they do that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHIbOAKltoQ
I can make a video showing the mechanics of dragons flying. That hardly proves the existence of dragons flying, it just shows off my ability to make a video. Hell, Tolkien made worlds with much more detail than round earth advocates can usually conjure up.

As for how the manufacturers of navigation technology make the stuff, there are numerous ways to transmit a signal both wireless and with wires that do not require orbiting satellites in space.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: inquisitive on May 09, 2018, 07:03:53 PM
Did you actually read my post? Highlighted in bold the part you are still ignoring.
You have let to prove a link between watching TV and the earth being round. You keep just stating your premise (this ridiculous orbiting satellite theory) as a fact. I have demonstrated, over and again, that satellites orbiting the earth are not needed for TV.

If no one mentioned anything about them being paid solely to find out the earth's shape then why mention that?
This whole thread is about why people would claim the earth is round despite the reality of it being flat. You don't think the motivation of space agency's funding is relevant to that conversation?

Here's a video demonstrating the products of Plane Wave Media. In it, you can see a telescope tracking orbital satellites, with the star field moving in the background as the telescope moves across the sky. You can see the output from the telescope, a depiction of the star chart, showing where the telescope is pointing, a view of the telescope as it operates, and a data chart showing attributes of the telescope and its targets.

Or do you think it shows something else? Do you think the manufacturer is tracking them based on something other than global tracks, and they're deceiving us about it? Why would they do that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHIbOAKltoQ
I can make a video showing the mechanics of dragons flying. That hardly proves the existence of dragons flying, it just shows off my ability to make a video. Hell, Tolkien made worlds with much more detail than round earth advocates can usually conjure up.

As for how the manufacturers of navigation technology make the stuff, there are numerous ways to transmit a signal both wireless and with wires that do not require orbiting satellites in space.
Not needed is not the same as do not exist. I have a dish that receives multi channel tv pointing at an object over the equator. Maybe you can explain how it works with links to the satellite or otherwise operator.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tumeni on May 09, 2018, 07:53:15 PM
I have demonstrated, over and again, that satellites orbiting the earth are not needed for TV.

Yes, they are not needed as the sole method of receiving TV (other methods are via terrestrial transmitters, cable access, and closed-circuit), but that forms no sort of proof of the absence or non-existence of satellites. Satellite is but one of these four methods of transmission and reception.


Here's a video demonstrating the products of Plane Wave Media. In it, you can see a telescope tracking orbital satellites, with the star field moving in the background as the telescope moves across the sky. You can see the output from the telescope, a depiction of the star chart, showing where the telescope is pointing, a view of the telescope as it operates, and a data chart showing attributes of the telescope and its targets.

Or do you think it shows something else? Do you think the manufacturer is tracking them based on something other than global tracks, and they're deceiving us about it? Why would they do that?

VID
I can make a video showing the mechanics of dragons flying. That hardly proves the existence of dragons flying, it just shows off my ability to make a video.

Once you sell flying dragons as a commercial product, the way that these guys do with their telescopes, then feel free to make a promotional video. Meanwhile, why don't you address the mechanics of what they're doing, and how they do it?

As for how the manufacturers of navigation technology make the stuff, there are numerous ways to transmit a signal both wireless and with wires that do not require orbiting satellites in space.

The presence or absence of those other methods is not, of itself, a disproof of satellites.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 09, 2018, 08:09:47 PM
If no one mentioned anything about them being paid solely to find out the earth's shape then why mention that?
This whole thread is about why people would claim the earth is round despite the reality of it being flat. You don't think the motivation of space agency's funding is relevant to that conversation?

No, because they weren't being funded to confirm the shape of the earth (you even said it was irrelevant to the discussion). We had an idea of what the earth looked like when we went into space, on the way to the moon we happened to see that it was just as we thought (a sphere).

At no point has anyone claimed that funding for NASA was used to confirm what the shape of the earth was. You came up with that assertion all on your own.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 09, 2018, 08:37:59 PM
First of all, you can three get avatars? It's like I'm talking with three generic people named Terry.

Not needed is not the same as do not exist. I have a dish that receives multi channel tv pointing at an object over the equator. Maybe you can explain how it works with links to the satellite or otherwise operator.
It's hardly fair to expect me to explain how something on your property, which could be anywhere in the world away from me. We've already established there are many methods of technology that could be used. I can't be expected to describe a specific set-up that I literally can not observe.

The presence or absence of those other methods is not, of itself, a disproof of satellites.
I can't prove a negative. You're the one making the claim and I have to provide the evidence?

At no point has anyone claimed that funding for NASA was used to confirm what the shape of the earth was. You came up with that assertion all on your own.
So NASA isn't proof of a round earth? Got it.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: inquisitive on May 09, 2018, 08:47:27 PM
First of all, you can three get avatars? It's like I'm talking with three generic people named Terry.

Not needed is not the same as do not exist. I have a dish that receives multi channel tv pointing at an object over the equator. Maybe you can explain how it works with links to the satellite or otherwise operator.
It's hardly fair to expect me to explain how something on your property, which could be anywhere in the world away from me. We've already established there are many methods of technology that could be used. I can't be expected to describe a specific set-up that I literally can not observe.

The presence or absence of those other methods is not, of itself, a disproof of satellites.
I can't prove a negative. You're the one making the claim and I have to provide the evidence?

At no point has anyone claimed that funding for NASA was used to confirm what the shape of the earth was. You came up with that assertion all on your own.
So NASA isn't proof of a round earth? Got it.
Satellite broadcastìng is used throughout the world, I am sure you have seen dishes. If you were serious in this discussion you would not even try to claim not to understand them.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: 9 out of 10 doctors agree on May 09, 2018, 08:57:55 PM
Not needed is not the same as do not exist. I have a dish that receives multi channel tv pointing at an object over the equator. Maybe you can explain how it works with links to the satellite or otherwise operator.
It's hardly fair to expect me to explain how something on your property, which could be anywhere in the world away from me. We've already established there are many methods of technology that could be used. I can't be expected to describe a specific set-up that I literally can not observe.
How about this, literally taken from Google images?
(http://res.cloudinary.com/ddwadoghw/image/upload/v1441819563/standard-satellite-dish.jpg)
Quote
The presence or absence of those other methods is not, of itself, a disproof of satellites.
I can't prove a negative. You're the one making the claim and I have to provide the evidence?
You've already been shown photos of satellites from the ground. That gives you the burden of proof.
Quote
At no point has anyone claimed that funding for NASA was used to confirm what the shape of the earth was. You came up with that assertion all on your own.
So NASA isn't proof of a round earth? Got it.
Their mandate does not include determining the shape of the world, but they did so on the way.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 09, 2018, 09:27:16 PM
You keep just stating your premise (this ridiculous orbiting satellite theory) as a fact.


Well. I have a satellite dish which is pointing at something in the sky. That thing is said to be a geostationary satellite above the equator.
On a recent work trip to Sri Lanka, which is much closer to the equator than England, I noticed that the dishes there point up at a noticeably steeper angle than they do in the UK.
I also have observed that when my neighbour put up scaffolding to do some work on his house it blocked the signal to my dish.
So, my dish is pointing at something which it is is receiving a signal from. That is indisputable.

Quote
I have demonstrated, over and again, that satellites orbiting the earth are not needed for TV.

You haven't demonstrated anything. Of course there are other ways of receiving TV. Cable. Arial, now over the internet. None of that is relevant though, what is relevant is that satellite dishes demonstrably point at something - that can be demonstrated by observing that my satellite TV stops working if something blocks its clear line of sight to that something.
And that something is in the sky which can be demonstrated by the angle that these dishes point at which is at a steeper angle the nearer to the equator you go.

If you are suggesting that the something which my dish is pointing at is not a geostationary satellite then you need to provide some evidence for an alternative technology which would allow something to hover in a fixed location for many years. It must be fixed, if a dish is knocked then you lose signal, the angle has to be precise which demonstrates that the thing it is pointing at is in a fixed location. You have yet to suggest what that could be or provide any evidence for how it would work.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on May 09, 2018, 10:46:14 PM
Their mandate does not include determining the shape of the world, but they did so on the way.
Okay, but the political reasons an organization gets funding are never as simple as "so they can fulfill their mandate". There's a whole host of things that go into it that you can lean all about at your local community college's Political Science department. Or go back earlier into the thread for a brief discussion of motivations for a space agency beyond the shape of the earth.

(http://res.cloudinary.com/ddwadoghw/image/upload/v1441819563/standard-satellite-dish.jpg)
You've already been shown photos of satellites from the ground. That gives you the burden of proof.
Are you just fucking with me now? Because you googled a picture of a satellite dish the burden of proof for explaining how it works is on me? We've established it's well within the realm of existing technologies to receive signals without the use of satellites orbiting a round earth. As for the specific mechanism in the case of this (admittedly random and possibly non-existent) dish, how should I know? Must I now individually explain every wackjob that claims to get internet by space, magic pixies, or dragons? You're making the claims, but failing to provide evidence.

If you are suggesting that the something which my dish is pointing at is not a geostationary satellite then you need to provide some evidence for an alternative technology which would allow something to hover in a fixed location for many years. It must be fixed, if a dish is knocked then you lose signal, the angle has to be precise which demonstrates that the thing it is pointing at is in a fixed location. You have yet to suggest what that could be or provide any evidence for how it would work.
You're the one presenting your premise (space-faring satellites orbiting a round earth) as fact. If you want to make the claim it's space-faring satellites, you need to prove your claim.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: inquisitive on May 09, 2018, 10:56:40 PM
Their mandate does not include determining the shape of the world, but they did so on the way.
Okay, but the political reasons an organization gets funding are never as simple as "so they can fulfill their mandate". There's a whole host of things that go into it that you can lean all about at your local community college's Political Science department. Or go back earlier into the thread for a brief discussion of motivations for a space agency beyond the shape of the earth.

(http://res.cloudinary.com/ddwadoghw/image/upload/v1441819563/standard-satellite-dish.jpg)
You've already been shown photos of satellites from the ground. That gives you the burden of proof.
Are you just fucking with me now? Because you googled a picture of a satellite dish the burden of proof for explaining how it works is on me? We've established it's well within the realm of existing technologies to receive signals without the use of satellites orbiting a round earth. As for the specific mechanism in the case of this (admittedly random and possibly non-existent) dish, how should I know? Must I now individually explain every wackjob that claims to get internet by space, magic pixies, or dragons? You're making the claims, but failing to provide evidence.

If you are suggesting that the something which my dish is pointing at is not a geostationary satellite then you need to provide some evidence for an alternative technology which would allow something to hover in a fixed location for many years. It must be fixed, if a dish is knocked then you lose signal, the angle has to be precise which demonstrates that the thing it is pointing at is in a fixed location. You have yet to suggest what that could be or provide any evidence for how it would work.
You're the one presenting your premise (space-faring satellites orbiting a round earth) as fact. If you want to make the claim it's space-faring satellites, you need to prove your claim.
The claim is proven by the millions of dishes in service and the angle of the dish pointing at an object over the equator. See the documentation, scientific papers etc.  Do you receive tv using a satellite dish?

You are claiming these dishes work in some other way but cannot explain how.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: 9 out of 10 doctors agree on May 09, 2018, 11:27:06 PM
Because you googled a picture of a satellite dish the burden of proof for explaining how it works is on me?
No, the Google images picture was only a demonstration of the setup. The burden of proof is for demonstrating that it ISN'T from a satellite, because Tumeni has already posted a video of someone photographing one such satellite from the ground.
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: SiDawg on May 09, 2018, 11:43:02 PM
It's hardly fair to expect me to explain how something on your property, which could be anywhere in the world away from me. We've already established there are many methods of technology that could be used. I can't be expected to describe a specific set-up that I literally can not observe.

This is a particularly frustrating cyclic argument...

1 RE: I have a satellite dish to pickup TV
2 Ben: You don't need a satellite dish to pickup TV
3 RE: But i DO have a dish to pickup TV, and if i move it, it doesn't work
4 Ben: I can't confirm that
5 RE: Millions of people around the world confirm it
6 Ben: They don't need a satellite dish to pickup TV
7 Goto 3

Then there's this argument:

1 RE: My dish is receiving signal from satelites
2 Ben: That doesn't prove a round earth
3 RE: But it proves satellites. How do they stay up?
4 Ben: I don't know
5 RE: I do know: gravitational orbiting
6 Ben: Prove it
7 RE: thousands of scientists have proven it
8 Ben: Prove it's not held up by some other method
End argument


 
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: Tontogary on May 09, 2018, 11:43:35 PM

You have let to prove a link between watching TV and the earth being round. You keep just stating your premise (this ridiculous orbiting satellite theory) as a fact. I have demonstrated, over and again, that satellites orbiting the earth are not needed for TV.

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As for how the manufacturers of navigation technology make the stuff, there are numerous ways to transmit a signal both wireless and with wires that do not require orbiting satellites in space.
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I am sorry, you have not demonstrated “over again” that satellites are not required for TV.
My ship is currently 200 miles from the nearest land, but i can interact with this debate. We dont have cable, we dont have a terrestrial signal (in fact we dont have a terrestrial tv antenna) and i dont have a cell signal.
What i DO have is a satellite dish pointed at the sky to a satellite.

You came up with the idea of “hypothetical aircraft” which is akin to your magic pixels and dragons. You have NOT demonstrated how I can have communications or TV.

We also have 3 methods of finding our position.
1, Celestial navigation, i.e. taking fixes from the sun and stars. Requires the taking and calculation of the ships position, so cannot be done automatically.
2, Visual and radar observation of fixed objects such as land or other solid objects ( we are 200 miles from land, so we cannot use that)
3, GPS using Satellites.

We are using 1 and 3 to find our position.

We have no other antennas or receivers for receiving these magic signals you claim that Could be telling me where i am. There are no land based systems in operation such as Loran (switched off) decca (switched off) Omega( long ago switched off) and in any case all of those need dedicated receivers, multiple corrections and user input. I would know if we were using any of those systems.
We DO HAVE GPS, which uses satellites.

So other than magic pixels or dragons, it would be nice to know how we know where we are? Claiming there are ways to transmit signals does not really explain HOW we know...

And if you cannot explain, even the basics, then you have no real reason to claim that there are ways. Again magic pixels and dragons?
Title: Re: So what benefits for government lying to us?????
Post by: jcks on May 10, 2018, 12:49:55 AM
So NASA isn't proof of a round earth? Got it.

What? How did you get to that conclusion from "At no point has anyone claimed that funding for NASA was used to confirm what the shape of the earth was."

Again you are either making up points no one has stated or misinterpreting words. Possibly both.