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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #340 on: July 16, 2020, 04:30:08 PM »
Like I said - are you forbidding him to change his mind or modify his stance on anything? If so, why?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #341 on: July 16, 2020, 06:11:08 PM »
I don't really care how spineless Joe Biden flip-flops on his policy positions. I already knew that about him.

Even the mere existence of the slogan "Defund the Police" in the Democrat party base points towards a 2020 loss. You guys are clearly shameless and unrepenting extremists, but regular Americans are not. Like regular people are going to actually vote en-mass for GaryGreen's radical ideas for playing games and experimenting with public safety with a police-less society, or for that party sharing those ideas. Joe Biden holding out a hand to these radical positions, "changing his mind" on a whim, and seeking to appease BLM, rather than disavowing them, only gives it legitimacy, advertisement, and therefore fodder, for his loss in November.
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #342 on: July 16, 2020, 06:14:18 PM »
I don't really care how spineless Joe Biden flip-flops on his policy positions. I already knew that about him.

Imagine thinking that someone is spineless because they changed their mind.  You would have to conclude that Trump is spineless.  Enjoy that.

Quote
Even the mere existence of the slogan "Defund the Police" in the Democrat party base points towards a 2020 loss. You guys are clearly shameless and unrepenting extremists, but regular Americans are not.

Only in an extremists world does "divert funds from the police" become identical to "defund the police".  There is no nuance or rationality in your position, Tom.

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Like regular people are going to actually vote en-mass for GaryGreen's radical ideas for playing games and experimenting with public safety with a police-less society, or for that party sharing those ideas. Joe Biden holding out a hand to these radical positions and seeking to appease them, rather than disavowing them, only gives it legitimacy, advertisement, and therefore fodder, for his loss in November.

Well, as has been pointed out numerous times, the official position of Biden's campaign does not include a policy promise to abolish the police.  Perhaps you should stop the straw man?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #343 on: July 16, 2020, 07:22:58 PM »
Quote
Only in an extremists world does "divert funds from the police" become identical to "defund the police".  There is no nuance or rationality in your position, Tom.

Biden's team obviously knows that campaigning outright on a platform of defunding or abolishing the police won't work, yet is pandering to BLM instead of disavowing them.

- Big name democrat companies and celebrities supporting BLM
- Big name democrat politicians supporting and pandering for BLM, in public, on the stump, and on the House floor
- Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi pandering for BLM
- No big name democrats have disavowed BLM

The American public equivocates a vote for the Democratic Party to be a vote for BLM. 1 + 1 = 2.

People are not going to justify "well, Joe Biden't didn't say outright that he was going to defund the police..." That's only the type of logic justification you personally perform when you are on the losing side of a debate. Everyone already knows that the democrats support and pander to BLM. That's going to be the highlight, and democrat leaders, including Joe Biden, will refuse to disavow.

Biden doesn't need to claim that he's going to abolish the police. His party does the talking for him. Yet you think that people will vote for his party and hinge everything on your desperate loopy logic. It's already over.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 10:42:54 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #344 on: July 16, 2020, 07:26:21 PM »
My “desperate loopy logic”? How nice. You will forgive me for not taking you seriously. You support a president who called the Charlottesville white supremacists “good people” but think that someone who doesn’t overtly agree but also doesn’t denounce BLM as a far-left extremist. Good talk, Tom. Romney is still winning by a landslide somewhere.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #345 on: July 17, 2020, 02:34:18 AM »
I see that you concede the discussion and fail to present any compelling argument for why reasonable people will vote for BLM-pandering Joe Biden or the BLM-pandering Democrat movement, and now want to talk to me about something about Trump.

You have implicitly admitted that the platform message of "Defund the Police" is non-viable. You are foolishly believing that people will choose to vote for Democtrats/BLM instead of not voting or voting for the opposition. See, you actually have to have a working and compelling plan that people like, and are actually motivated to support. Extremist views and "he's not Trump" is a failure of a platform. Even if someone doesn't like Trump, that does not mean that they are going to vote for an extremist party promoting radical views that they don't believe in or are motivated for.

The green/libertarian/I'm not going to vote party also has "he's not Trump." It is a fallacy and demonstration of failure to try to divert the attention to Trump with your false opinion editor rubbish instead of addressing your failing liberal movement. You need to look in the mirror and admit that people aren't going to vote for that ugliness.

Maybe if you understood that you guys won't be so confused when you continue to lose elections and why "bbbbuttt Trumppp" doesn't work. That didn't work in 2016, and won't work now. People have to want what you are selling for that to work.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 03:32:37 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #346 on: July 17, 2020, 02:37:43 AM »
Well that’s a lot of made up shit right there. I can’t force you to be compelled by my arguments just as none of your arguments are compelling for me. Me disagreeing with you doesn’t make me an exemplar of what you despise on the left.

Your utterly hyperbolic pronouncements simply don’t match my observations of the current climate in the USA. I see many cities exploring a new paradigm for government interaction with areas that are in desperate need of help. That’s good in my books. These changes were prompted by a boil over of anti-establishment sentiment that got ugly. That’s sad and frustrating in its discordance, but I’m hopeful that it will produce a net positive change.

Are these changes a result of politicians being pressured by their constituents? Yes! Guess what? They are supposed to be at the service of their constituents. Not paternalistically wagging a finger at them. I will concede that there is real danger of decision makers being a prisoner of the moment, but I’ve long been of the opinion that police and the justice system have been tools of the wealthy and needed to be overhauled. So let’s see it change even though the change is painful because I want something better to replace the stagnant establishment in the US. Biden isn’t it, but it’s really hard to imagine someone being worse than Trump. I still think Trump will win in 2020 because Biden is just the same old corporatist candidate and he will breed complacency and the GOP will so enough in their campaign, ethical and unethical, to win. It won’t matter either way because the president simultaneously has too big a job and not enough influence for it to matter. The post is a distraction from the institutions that prop up corporate money that fucks over everyone, you included.

Anyway, I have way more thought to troll nonsense than I should have. So have at me for being a legit Marxist Nazi Slave OwnerTM or whatever else you dream up.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #347 on: July 17, 2020, 09:31:14 AM »
If Biden is "BLM-pandering Biden", then that makes Trump "Goya-pandering Trump" ...

Do you realise, Tom, that simply tacking an adjectival epithet onto the front of the candidate's name is just petty name-calling, and makes no substantive point at all ... ?

See you over on the Trump thread if you want to continue down this road. This thread was started to discuss whether or not the police are out of control. In this regard, they still are. Almost 800 cases of casual and intended brutality since late May/beginning of June, and that's just those collected by ONE civil defence attorney....

In Portland, unidentified folk in camouflage gear have been seen wordlessly grabbing people off the streets, bundling them into unmarked vehicles, and taking them away. No statement they are under arrest, no reading of rights, just wordless grabbing and disappearance .....

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette

Also,

https://projects.propublica.org/protest-police-tactics/

"looked at nearly 400 social media posts showing police responses to protesters and found troubling conduct by officers in at least 184 of them. In 59 videos, pepper spray and tear gas were used improperly; in a dozen others, officers used batons to strike noncombative demonstrators; and in 87 videos, officers punched, pushed and kicked retreating protesters, including a few instances in which they used an arm or knee to exert pressure on a protester’s neck.

While the weapons, tactics and circumstances varied from city to city, what we saw in one instance after another was a willingness by police to escalate confrontations."
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #348 on: July 17, 2020, 03:23:52 PM »
There you guys go, talking about Trump again. The argument "He's not trump" DOES NOT WORK. Even if you/the media successfully convince people that Trump is bad, that doesn't mean that they are voting for your side. They may not vote or vote for some other opposition. Trump character assassination was tried all through the last 2016 election cycle, and failed. You need to have a compelling and populist platform that people want and like.

Quickly, what was Hillary Clinton's main platform for presidency? It was "I'm a woman!" and some vague stuff about rising middle class incomes. Nothing compelling or organic that people were really excited about. On the other hand, Trump focused on illegal immigration problems and 'drain the swamp' and the like, and quickly became a populist figure, ultimately elected as President of the United States.

If you can't tell us how and why people are really exited about the Democrat's compelling platform, it's a lost cause. You are just hoping that people 'vote blue no matter who'. Continuing the ol' say-some-stuff-about-Trump-and-hope-people-vote-for-my-side tactic will not work.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 03:41:00 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #349 on: July 17, 2020, 03:35:08 PM »
There you guys go, talking about Trump again. The argument "He's not trump" DOES NOT WORK. Even if you/the media successfully convince people that Trump is bad, that doesn't mean that they are voting for your side. They may not vote or vote for some other opposition. Trump character assassination was tried all through the last 2016 election cycle, and failed. You need to have a compelling and populous platform that people want and like.

Quickly, what was Hillary Clinton's main platform for presidency? It was "I'm a woman!" and some vague stuff about rising middle class incomes. Nothing compelling or organic that people were really excited about. On the other hand, Trump focused on illegal immigration problems and 'drain the swamp' and the like, and quickly became a populist figure, ultimately elected as President of the United States.

If you can't tell us how and why people are really exited about the Democrat's compelling platform, it's a lost cause. You are just hoping that people 'vote blue no matter who'. Continuing the ol' say-some-stuff-about-Trump-and-hope-people-vote-for-my-side tactic will not work.
But more importantly, yes, American police are out of control.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #350 on: July 18, 2020, 05:36:10 PM »
With events in Portland, perhaps the thread should be retitled...

"Are the American police, DHS, National Guard and other unspecified agencies out of control?"

...
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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #351 on: July 20, 2020, 10:32:06 AM »
I didn't make anything up.

You sure did.  You have no evidence that the majority of the Democratic party holds these beliefs.  That's over 22M people, in case you were wondering how absurd your claim is.  You probably can't even prove that a majority of Dem congresspeople hold these beliefs.
Yeah, like Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer really do not presume to speak for the majority of Democrats.

Funny how the news primarily seeks out their message each and every time.
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There is documented evidence, some posted by Tom right here, demonstrating what Tom and I have written is absolutely true.

A few people does not make up a majority, sorry to break it to you.
Considering the few that are quoted the most do in fact represent the majority, you are breaking nothing.
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Given you are in Canada, you cannot possibly know anything regarding this topic.

Yawn.  Oh?  Are you still trotting out this irrelevant comment?  Here let me try: given you are in the USA, you can't possibly know what Canadians know.
And I don't care to, given the shape of your government.
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If you have any evidence whatsoever indicating a majority of Democrats do not support BLM Marxist ideology then by all means post it.

I will take evidence of just one Democrat not supporting it.

"No, I don't support defunding the police," Biden said on Monday.

Wow, it's almost like you are just pushing a narrative, not because it's true, but because it suits your feelings.  It was trivially easy to debunk your claim, why don't you do the honest thing and actually try to substantiate your words with facts?
"Published July 8
Biden says some funding should 'absolutely' be redirected from police"

Redirecting = defunding.

Wow.

It is like what I wrote above is actually true.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 12:04:11 PM by totallackey »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #352 on: July 20, 2020, 11:45:16 AM »
Around 800 cases of casual and intended brutality since late May/beginning of June, and that's just those collected by ONE civil defence attorney....

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette

Latest instance, also found on Instagram, in Loveland, Colorado;

Man walks into store, objects to wearing mask. Some verbal conflict may have been involved. Goes outside, police arrive, and at the point where things are documented on video, three police are holding him on the ground; a fourth joins in and draws a baton, a fifth joins in, repeatedly punches and kicks the victims legs, pins them down, dropping a KNIFE from an ankle holster in the process, a knife which he is seen to replace in its holster.

Is a knife in an ankle holster standard police issue?

Eye witness accounts have the victim being taken away on a stretcher. Eye witness accounts have multiple white people walking around in the store without masks, but - surprise, surprise - the victim was black.

Looks out of control. How do they manage to get from the citizen walking into a store without injury, to the point where he is carried away on a stretcher, simply for verbal objection? Why are the American police so bad at this?
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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #353 on: July 20, 2020, 12:06:20 PM »
Around 800 cases of casual and intended brutality since late May/beginning of June, and that's just those collected by ONE civil defence attorney....

https://twitter.com/greg_doucette

Latest instance, also found on Instagram, in Loveland, Colorado;

Man walks into store, objects to wearing mask. Some verbal conflict may have been involved. Goes outside, police arrive, and at the point where things are documented on video, three police are holding him on the ground; a fourth joins in and draws a baton, a fifth joins in, repeatedly punches and kicks the victims legs, pins them down, dropping a KNIFE from an ankle holster in the process, a knife which he is seen to replace in its holster.

Is a knife in an ankle holster standard police issue?

Eye witness accounts have the victim being taken away on a stretcher. Eye witness accounts have multiple white people walking around in the store without masks, but - surprise, surprise - the victim was black.

Looks out of control. How do they manage to get from the citizen walking into a store without injury, to the point where he is carried away on a stretcher, simply for verbal objection? Why are the American police so bad at this?
"At the point where things are documented on video..."

THE BAD STUFF STARTS...

LOL!!!

Typical post from you Tumeni...

Probably tried to go upside one of the police officer's heads prior to the video...

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #354 on: July 20, 2020, 12:23:47 PM »
Yeah, like Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer really do not presume to speak for the majority of Democrats.

Funny how the news primarily seeks out their message each and every time.

We can't really talk if you want to keep moving the goal posts.  Presuming to speak for the majority is different than what the majority believes.
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Considering the few that are quoted the most do in fact represent the majority, you are breaking nothing.

See above.

Quote
And I don't care to, given the shape of your government.

You're American, what could you possibly know about the shape of my government?  :-B

Quote
"Published July 8
Biden says some funding should 'absolutely' be redirected from police"

Redirecting = defunding.

Wow.

It is like what I wrote above is actually true.

Totally.  It is totally like it is true if you just interpret words how you want to so that your world view hangs together.  Nevermind that he just released a statement saying that he would increase police funding in some places too.  That doesn't fit the narrative.  Trump tried to pull the exact same trick on Fox News and he turned out to be just as wrong as you are.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #355 on: July 20, 2020, 02:31:59 PM »
Probably tried to go upside one of the police officer's heads prior to the video...

He didn't.

Why do American police lack any restraint skills, beyond dog-piling four or five at a time on top of a suspect? Don't they get training?
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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #356 on: July 20, 2020, 03:22:07 PM »
Probably tried to go upside one of the police officer's heads prior to the video...

He didn't.
Source?
Why do SOME American police lack any restraint skills, beyond dog-piling four or five at a time on top of a suspect? Don't they get training?
Given that the word SOME was missing out of your reply, I would state that it is obvious police in the US do receive training.

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #357 on: July 20, 2020, 03:26:07 PM »
Yeah, like Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer really do not presume to speak for the majority of Democrats.

Funny how the news primarily seeks out their message each and every time.

We can't really talk if you want to keep moving the goal posts.  Presuming to speak for the majority is different than what the majority believes.
There is no moving of the goalposts.

They do speak for the majority of Democrats.
Quote
Considering the few that are quoted the most do in fact represent the majority, you are breaking nothing.

See above.
See above.
Quote
And I don't care to, given the shape of your government.

You're American, what could you possibly know about the shape of my government?  :-B
Given you have been unable to adequately describe it in order to provide any evidence of my lack of knowledge, I think we can safely deduce you too are lacking in this area.
Quote
"Published July 8
Biden says some funding should 'absolutely' be redirected from police"

Redirecting = defunding.

Wow.

It is like what I wrote above is actually true.

Totally.  It is totally like it is true if you just interpret words how you want to so that your world view hangs together.  Nevermind that he just released a statement saying that he would increase police funding in some places too.  That doesn't fit the narrative.  Trump tried to pull the exact same trick on Fox News and he turned out to be just as wrong as you are.
I am not interpreting the words the way I want.

Biden wants to redirect police funding to other programs not covered by the police programs.

If the police are not going to get those funds, that does indeed = defunding.

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #358 on: July 20, 2020, 03:46:25 PM »
Yes, ignore the part where he wants to increase the funding to police departments.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #359 on: July 20, 2020, 04:35:38 PM »
Source?

The police version;

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/07/15/loveland-police-video-arrest-target/

"Police responded to the parking lot on Monday. Target management reported a man “getting into people’s faces: and being “extremely hostile.”

Police tell CBS4 it may have been due to a mask issue. The man reportedly refused to leave, but later walked outside and sat in the middle of the road and blocked traffic.

“All of this is the criminal part that allowed the officer to detain him, until he could confirm the conduct with the store management,” police said.

The video shows the officer get out of his vehicle to approach a man walking away in the store’s parking lot. The officer asks the man multiple times “what’s going on today?”

The man is then seen turning around toward the officer and walking toward him. The officer tells him to “not walk up on me, sir” several times.

The man can be heard saying “you can’t tell me that.”

When the man continues to walk toward the officer, the officer pushes the man away with his hand two separate times. The man stumbled backward after the second push, and fell to the ground. He laid there for a brief moment before the officer tried to handcuff the man.

At that time, two other officers responded and jumped in to help.

The officers appeared to have trouble detaining the man, as he continued to say “you can’t tell me that.”

Officer told the man to stop resisting and to cooperate.

More officers responded. Some were seen hitting the man in an effort to subdue him.

After about three or four minutes of the confrontation, the man was handcuffed.

In a social media post, Loveland police say the man was causing a disturbance inside and outside of the store and refused to leave. They add medical personnel responded to tend to the man.

Police officials say it is not clear if the man was under the influence, and medical personnel said he was okay, so a test was not administered.

A video posted to Instagram shows five officers trying to subdue the man. One officer is seen punching and kneeing the man’s right leg. Another officer is seen taking her baton out, but police say it was used as leverage to help subdue the man.

“It was a very myopic depiction of the event and did not offer any perspective on how or why the officers were arresting him. It is extremely important for the community to know the entire story. It might look excessive, but consider the alternatives,” official said.

The Loveland Police Department issued the following statements to CBS4 Wednesday night about specifics in the use of force:

The officer used force because the suspect did not cooperate and physically resisted the legal direction given to him.  The baton was not used to strike; it was used as a lever to pry the suspect’s arm out from underneath him when he refused to bring is arm back. The other officer struck the suspect with his fist on the suspect’s calf. This is a trained technique to distract the suspect without causing injury, allowing the other officers to get his arms under control.  In this case, it worked. The suspect did not cooperate with the officer’s direction to maintain a safe distance so low level force was used to bring him into compliance. That is standard operating procedure and happens on a daily basis. Considering the reason the officer was called to the scene, along with the man’s refusal to maintain a safe distance, it escalated the situation to one of a higher level of threat.  When the man went down, the officer was correct in taking that opportunity to handcuff him for everyone’ safety. If he had simply complied, there would not have been a conflict. They also noted officers most often wear masks, but are not required to do so when there’s a potential for conflict because it raises the level of danger toward the officer."

= =

So ... the victim did nothing worse than sit in the road, get a bit mouthy, and walk toward the police officer. No suggestion that he did anything worse than this.

At which point, the officer pushed him to the ground and they dogpiled him.

Note from the video that with three officers on top of him, his legs are not moving. He's not kicking, I can't see any movement at all from him. When the last officer grabs at his legs, that's when they move. No resistance until he is grabbed from behind by someone he cannot see, who then starts kicking and punching  the backs of his legs, and who, once again, is ARMED WITH A KNIFE in an ankle holster, something which I would suggest is not standard police issue. He can be seen replacing this in the holster, since it fell out when he kicked the victim's legs.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 05:39:49 PM by Tumeni »
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