Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #320 on: July 15, 2020, 03:49:38 PM »
*sigh*

Nice cherrys you're picking, as always.
Obviously there will be a range of opinions on any topic and some people's views will be "out there" and not viable. You always present the most extreme views on any topic, or ones which back up your point, and ignore the rest.

It would be nice if we could get to a society where police aren't actually needed, I think almost everyone would agree we probably can't get there. But if some areas are so rough that a heavy police presence is required then surely it is worth exploring whether things can be done about the root causes of that, fix those and maybe you will end up with communities which are less lawless and don't need such a big police presence. I'd suggest that's a good thing and worth considering.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #321 on: July 15, 2020, 03:51:16 PM »
Tom, please respond to what I actually say, rather than telling me what I'm saying is inconsistent with a "movement" that you refer to...

EDIT - the New York Times has compiled a series of NYPD brutalities toward protesters; there's a lot of them, for what is routinely explained away as a "few bad apples" ...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/14/nyregion/nypd-george-floyd-protests.html?smid=tw-share
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 04:17:15 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #322 on: July 15, 2020, 05:17:44 PM »
Tom, please respond to what I actually say, rather than telling me what I'm saying is inconsistent with a "movement" that you refer to...

It looks like you're trying to have a legitimate debate with a notorious troll.

Good luck with that.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 05:20:36 PM by Roundy »
Go kicking and screaming, lol, it all means the same on January 21st.

Before this is over I'm betting you eat those landslide words :)

Another gullible, delusional "Independent" ::)

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #323 on: July 15, 2020, 06:17:00 PM »
*sigh*

Nice cherrys you're picking, as always.
Obviously there will be a range of opinions on any topic and some people's views will be "out there" and not viable.

How is it cherry picking to post the anti-police demands of the Patrisse Cullors, Co-Founder of Black Lives Matter, and the the statements of the leaders of similar activist movements?



"Patrisse Cullors, Alicia Garza, and Opal Tometi - The Founders of Black Lives Matter"

"Cherry picking"  ::)

The other source is credited as the professor who started the post-George Floyd call of eliminating police:

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/breaking-the-news/imagine-a-world-without-police/89-c0ce0e9f-a5be-499f-9671-4a0cd8b7d2aa

Quote
"Envision a world where we don't have police. Like really think about that," he said. "What would a world without police look like? We have to create that."

Instead of wondering what if, Jason Sole is mentally designing a blueprint for a world without police. Sole is a criminal justice professor at Hamline University and founder of Humanize My Hoodie.

...

Sole hosted a Zoom call the day after George Floyd died in police custody for people to share their feelings and plan for the future. On that call, Sole raised the question: Why do we need police?

...

Eleven days later after Sole challenged others to reimagine, Minneapolis City Council asked a similar question.

A plan to replace the Minneapolis Police Department is not yet laid out, but council member Ellison says some actions will happen within "the next couple of weeks."

Quote from: Tumeni
Tom, please respond to what I actually say,

I don't see a need. That's not what they are demanding. I would learning about these subjects before making statements of what you think is occurring.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 01:17:36 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #324 on: July 15, 2020, 06:49:35 PM »
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #325 on: July 15, 2020, 07:00:05 PM »
tom isn't wrong that the movement is about literally abolishing the police. that's what it's about. police are a net-detriment to the communities they purportedly serve. they are an opportunity-cost to the money we could be spending on public policies that actually reduce crime.

for one thing, police are extremely shitty at clearing violent crimes. the national clearance rate for violent crimes sits at around 20% and has done so for the last 50 years.


of course, this belies the fact that the few felonies police solve tend to be obvious, straight-forward cases. this isn't CSI, where a team of investigators pours over a stone-cold-whodunit for weeks on end until finally cracking the case. tbh if you murder someone who isn't your wife, you will almost certainly get away with it.

only 5% of arrests are related to violent offenses. put another way: the next cop you see is more likely to be on his way to beat his wife than to solve — or make an arrest on — a felony criminal complaint.

fuck spending money on that.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #326 on: July 15, 2020, 08:02:16 PM »
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.

Very incorrect. The DNC officially endorsed BLM in 2015:

https://madison365.com/dnc-adopts-resolution-supporting-black-lives-matter/

Quote
DNC Adopts Resolution Supporting Black Lives Matter

The Democratic National Committee passed a resolution Friday afternoon supporting the Black Lives Matter movement at the party’s summer meeting in Minneapolis.

Congressional representatives are supporting BLM and its stances:

AOC supports Defund the Police demands in wake of George Floyd's death

Quote
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez threw her weight behind a growing movement to defund police departments that has become a rallying cry for some protesters in the wake of George Floyd's death.

The progressive firebrand put her stamp of approval on the far-left demand as a policy solution to combat police brutality and racial injustice during a congressional primary debate that aired Friday night on NY1.

https://theliberal.ie/black-lives-matter-to-create-armed-wing-as-democrat-congresswoman-signals-support-for-defunding-police/

Quote
Democrat representatives have actually entertained the idea of de-funding the police with Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib tweeting “Know that it’s still both, but don’t let the “who” overshadow the decades of structural racism that has created the system that allows police officer after police officer off the hook for murder. I just want us to dig deeper so that the #DefundPolice movement isn’t brushed aside.” Expressing such sentiment would have been considered lunacy and political suicide just weeks ago but are now being voiced by key figures in the Democratic Party.

[Congresswoman] Bustos now considers ‘Black Lives Matter’ a movement with ‘credibility’ after saying in 2017, ‘I don’t dwell on them’

As the coronavirus pandemic pummeled both the Bronx and Westchester, the congressman weathered criticism for staying in Washington. Engel returned home to speak in support of the Black Lives Matter movement...

Rep. Kirkpatrick Shares Support for Protesters and Black Lives Matter Movement

Rep. Ayanna Pressley said on the House floor that the Black Lives Matter movement is a “mandate,” and the time has come for people to “pay us what you owe us.”

Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas), who supports the movement, said Black Lives Matter activists "can take a great deal of credit for moving the criminal justice agenda forward"

Congresswoman Barbara Lee (D-Oakland) is pushing for legislation to unpack and address the deep-rooted history of systemic racism in the United States and sustain the Black Lives Matter movement into the future.

Sure.. No official support for BLM, just like a neo-nazi group... maybe you should pay more attention to the foreign American news that you feel qualified to comment on.

Wrong and debunked.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 01:26:37 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #327 on: July 16, 2020, 02:28:48 AM »
We were talking about Dem Leadership, no? AOC is about as close to leadership as it gets in that bunch but none of their house majority leaders, whips, speaker of the house, presidential candidates, etc...

There are people within the Democratic Party that hold far left views, yes. They aren’t the leadership and they aren’t a majority.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #328 on: July 16, 2020, 05:52:58 AM »
Actually, members of congress are among the highest echelons of the Democratic Party. Those are all democrat party leaders.

They are generally pandering for BLM. Even the house majority leader:

Independent - "Speaker Nancy Pelosi joined a protest against the death of George Floyd and police brutality on Wednesday in Washington, DC. The House of Representatives’ leading Democrat was pictured stepping out near the Capitol Building to show support to the Black Lives Matter movement."

Black Lives Matter: Nancy Pelosi pushes Senate to pass George Floyd bill



"Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and other Democratic lawmakers take a knee to observe a moment of silence on Capitol Hill for George Floyd and other victims of police brutality"

Last month Joe Biden said that he was against defunding police. This month weak Joe Biden is now obviously starting to pander to BLM with vague statements on redirecting funding.

The Epoch Times - Biden Says Some Funding Should Be Redirected From Police Departments

"Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden said Wednesday that some funding should be redirected from police departments as some activists and Democrats have called to 'defund the police' in the wake of protests and riots across the United States in recent weeks."

You are clearly misinformed that Black Lives Matter is not a supported movement in Congress and among democrat leadership.

I believe you said that BLM were equivalent to an unsupported "neo-nazi group". ::)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 02:24:43 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #329 on: July 16, 2020, 08:58:02 AM »
This month weak Joe Biden is now obviously starting to pander to BLM with vague statements on redirecting funding.

Wouldn't you rather have someone who recognises what's right in the Oval Office, in preference to a third-rate baked beans salesman who panders to the most recent CEO to brown-nose him?





Sequence of events;

CEO of Goya says at WH meeting he is "blessed" to have Trump in office
Ivanka poses on Instagram with CEO's product, violating ethics rules
POTUS poses with CEO's product, also violating ethics rules. Who's the weak one here?

Honestly, in the midst of a global pandemic, with Florida reporting 15,000 COVID cases in one day, THIS is the most important thing for the POTUS and advisor/daughter to do? Really?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 09:04:59 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #330 on: July 16, 2020, 09:07:53 AM »
Tom, please respond to what I actually say, rather than telling me what I'm saying is inconsistent with a "movement" that you refer to...

EDIT - the New York Times has compiled a series of NYPD brutalities toward protesters; there's a lot of them, for what is routinely explained away as a "few bad apples" ...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/14/nyregion/nypd-george-floyd-protests.html?smid=tw-share

Greg Doucette's gallery of abuses that I mentioned earlier, compiled since late May/early June, has now reached almost 800 instances, and he still has a backlog. He has stated that the NYT report contains some additional instances that didn't make it onto his gallery....

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totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #331 on: July 16, 2020, 10:20:32 AM »
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.
Safely ignored from a distance, somewhere in your Canadian bunker perhaps?

BLM does represent the views of a majority of Democrats in the US.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #332 on: July 16, 2020, 11:42:19 AM »
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.
Safely ignored from a distance, somewhere in your Canadian bunker perhaps?

BLM does represent the views of a majority of Democrats in the US.

Nice made up stats.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #333 on: July 16, 2020, 12:14:27 PM »
Tom started this conversation talking about Dem Leadership and is now talking about BLM as representing their views.  His argument is about as good as saying that a neo-nazi group represents Republican Leadership views.  It's an argument safely ignored.
Safely ignored from a distance, somewhere in your Canadian bunker perhaps?

BLM does represent the views of a majority of Democrats in the US.

Nice made up stats.
Made up stats?

There are no stats necessary about a Marxist organization being openly supported by prominent Democrats in the House, Senate, and other prominent positions in US Government.

But go ahead.

Start your tally of Democrats openly opposing the Marxist Agenda promoted by BLM.

I could list 2 to every 1 you come up with.


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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #334 on: July 16, 2020, 12:28:20 PM »

Nice made up stats.
Made up stats?

There are no stats necessary about a Marxist organization being openly supported by prominent Democrats in the House, Senate, and other prominent positions in US Government.

But go ahead.

Start your tally of Democrats openly opposing the Marxist Agenda promoted by BLM.

I could list 2 to every 1 you come up with.

So you admit you made that up. I will just ignore this then.  Thanks!
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #335 on: July 16, 2020, 12:54:01 PM »

Nice made up stats.
Made up stats?

There are no stats necessary about a Marxist organization being openly supported by prominent Democrats in the House, Senate, and other prominent positions in US Government.

But go ahead.

Start your tally of Democrats openly opposing the Marxist Agenda promoted by BLM.

I could list 2 to every 1 you come up with.

So you admit you made that up. I will just ignore this then.  Thanks!
I didn't make anything up.

There is documented evidence, some posted by Tom right here, demonstrating what Tom and I have written is absolutely true.

Given you are in Canada, you cannot possibly know anything regarding this topic.

If you have any evidence whatsoever indicating a majority of Democrats do not support BLM Marxist ideology then by all means post it.

I will take evidence of just one Democrat not supporting it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 02:25:24 PM by totallackey »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #336 on: July 16, 2020, 02:51:39 PM »
I didn't make anything up.

You sure did.  You have no evidence that the majority of the Democratic party holds these beliefs.  That's over 22M people, in case you were wondering how absurd your claim is.  You probably can't even prove that a majority of Dem congresspeople hold these beliefs.

Quote
There is documented evidence, some posted by Tom right here, demonstrating what Tom and I have written is absolutely true.

A few people does not make up a majority, sorry to break it to you.

Quote
Given you are in Canada, you cannot possibly know anything regarding this topic.

Yawn.  Oh?  Are you still trotting out this irrelevant comment?  Here let me try: given you are in the USA, you can't possibly know what Canadians know.

Quote
If you have any evidence whatsoever indicating a majority of Democrats do not support BLM Marxist ideology then by all means post it.

I will take evidence of just one Democrat not supporting it.

"No, I don't support defunding the police," Biden said on Monday.

Wow, it's almost like you are just pushing a narrative, not because it's true, but because it suits your feelings.  It was trivially easy to debunk your claim, why don't you do the honest thing and actually try to substantiate your words with facts?
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #337 on: July 16, 2020, 03:26:32 PM »
Quote from: Rama Set
"No, I don't support defunding the police," Biden said on Monday.

Wow, it's almost like you are just pushing a narrative, not because it's true, but because it suits your feelings.  It was trivially easy to debunk your claim, why don't you do the honest thing and actually try to substantiate your words with facts?

That's not a statement from Joe Biden on BLM. Joe Biden does not say that he disavows BLM or does not support BLM.

That comment was from last month. This month he is pandering to BLM:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Last month Joe Biden said that he was against defunding police. This month weak Joe Biden is now obviously starting to pander to BLM with vague statements on redirecting funding.

The Epoch Times - Biden Says Some Funding Should Be Redirected From Police Departments

"Presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden said Wednesday that some funding should be redirected from police departments as some activists and Democrats have called to 'defund the police' in the wake of protests and riots across the United States in recent weeks."
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 06:05:17 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #338 on: July 16, 2020, 03:51:19 PM »
That comment was from last month. This month he is pandering to BLM:

... and your point is .. what? That Joe Biden is forbidden to change his mind or modify his stance on anything?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #339 on: July 16, 2020, 04:21:25 PM »
It shows Joe Biden bending the knee to BLM. After Joe Biden made those comments last month his base turned against him:

From last month: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/26/joe-biden-refuses-get-woke-will-the-democratic-base-still-embrace-him-340753

"Joe Biden refuses to get woke, will the democratic base still embrace him" (url title)

"Why Biden Is Rejecting Black Lives Matter's Boldest Proposals"

"Internally, Biden’s campaign is balancing how to best respond to the transformational demands of protesters while maintaining his commanding lead over Trump."

Now this month Joe Biden is starting to "get woke," nullifying Rama Set's example that there is a large base in the Democratic party who disavow or reject BLM.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy