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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #300 on: July 10, 2020, 03:19:17 PM »
Dancing in the street is not normal for anyone.

I am fairly confident I am correct in writing this, but if you can find otherwise, that's cool.

I think this calls to question the definition of "normal".

It seems that your definition of normal is that normal is broadly shared by all, for all, with regards to any and all 'norms'. If so, I would ask you to demonstrate this.

I'm afraid you might be falling victim to ethnocentrism in your claim of normalcy.

What is normal for someone in the USA to do, might not be normal for someone in Asia to do - for instance - and vice versa. Before you go calling me racist again, take the example of chopsticks. It is normal for people to use chopsticks in Asian cultures much more so than it is for someone like myself to use chopsticks when I eat.

Similarly, it is normal for Indian cuisine to use curry. It is not normal for my diet to include curry.

I can give you more examples if it would be helpful.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline junker

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #301 on: July 10, 2020, 03:38:19 PM »
This thread is also devolving. Stop with the gigantic quote pyramids and absurd pedantry. Stick to the topic so I don't have to flex my authority like American police do.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #302 on: July 10, 2020, 03:50:11 PM »
This thread is also devolving. Stop with the gigantic quote pyramids and absurd pedantry. Stick to the topic so I don't have to flex my authority like American police do.

I disagree. I think the definition, and implications of what is considered "normal" is the heart of this entire discussion.

People who believe the police to be out of control are observing infringements on society based on opinions of normalcy. Someone can be deemed "suspicious" because they have defied social norms. Is this a cause for police action?

"It isn't 'normal' to be dancing in the street, there must be something devious is happening, so I'm calling the police!"

Far to often peoples misguided sense of normalcy steers them in the direction of discrimination and social profiling. On the other hand, things that are "normal" help us to make quick decisions - like whether or not to shoot someone in the back after they steel your taser. The officer was likely reacting on a sense of "this isn't normal", therefore fear kicks in, the situation escalates, and before you know it someone ends up dead.

Perhaps the solution to "out of control police" is to deconstruct the idea of "normal". Allow people to not be so reactive on subconscious ques, and better equipped to see where the real threats are.

Edit:

I agree the quote pyramids are getting out of control.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 03:52:56 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline junker

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #303 on: July 10, 2020, 04:06:00 PM »
I disagree. I think the definition, and implications of what is considered "normal" is the heart of this entire discussion.

The only person you are engaging with isn't going to budge on the topic of normalcy. Maybe if Saddam (honk) wanted to join in you could convince him or have a discussion, but that likely won't happen because Saddam isn't going to reply to 100 posts back and forth about people's opinions of normalcy.

And the discussion doesn't need to relate to "normalcy" at all. Stick to the idea of police escalating things for no reason based on legality. Even if it were literally illegal to "dance in the street" it would be the equivalent of jaywalking. If the cop were a normal human (I have yet to see an overlap in that Venn diagram), he would tell the person to move along or that they cannot do that. If they wanted to be real pricks, issue a citation (assuming it is breaking any law). If it is not breaking any law, then mind your business. If it is not against the law, but is possibly creating a hazard, give a lawful order to move  along based on that risk. Escalate as needed if the person refuses to comply with a lawful order. No one needs to be detained or "investigated" for this shit, and we don't need comparisons to curry as a bad analogy to why this is "normal." It just muddies the discussion and derails the thread.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 04:07:40 PM by junker »

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #304 on: July 10, 2020, 04:09:39 PM »
Dancing in the street is not normal for anyone.

I am fairly confident I am correct in writing this, but if you can find otherwise, that's cool.

I think this calls to question the definition of "normal".

It seems that your definition of normal is that normal is broadly shared by all, for all, with regards to any and all 'norms'. If so, I would ask you to demonstrate this.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/normal
I'm afraid you might be falling victim to ethnocentrism in your claim of normalcy.
I am not.
What is normal for someone in the USA to do, might not be normal for someone in Asia to do - for instance - and vice versa. Before you go calling me racist again, take the example of chopsticks. It is normal for people to use chopsticks in Asian cultures much more so than it is for someone like myself to use chopsticks when I eat.
Of course it is normal to use chopsticks in Asia.
Similarly, it is normal for Indian cuisine to use curry. It is not normal for my diet to include curry.

I can give you more examples if it would be helpful.
I do not think that is necessary.

The act of dancing in the street is not normal.

Anywhere.

It is not a normal occurrence anywhere.

Abnormal is not a negative word.

totallackey

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #305 on: July 10, 2020, 04:12:46 PM »
I disagree. I think the definition, and implications of what is considered "normal" is the heart of this entire discussion.

The only person you are engaging with isn't going to budge on the topic of normalcy. Maybe if Saddam (honk) wanted to join in you could convince him or have a discussion, but that likely won't happen because Saddam isn't going to reply to 100 posts back and forth about people's opinions of normalcy.

And the discussion doesn't need to relate to "normalcy" at all. Stick to the idea of police escalating things for no reason based on legality. Even if it were literally illegal to "dance in the street" it would be the equivalent of jaywalking. If the cop were a normal human (I have yet to see an overlap in that Venn diagram), he would tell the person to move along or that they cannot do that. If they wanted to be real pricks, issue a citation (assuming it is breaking any law). If it is not breaking any law, then mind your business. If it is not against the law, but is possibly creating a hazard, give a lawful order to move  along based on that risk. Escalate as needed if the person refuses to comply with a lawful order. No one needs to be detained or "investigated" for this shit, and we don't need comparisons to curry as a bad analogy to why this is "normal." It just muddies the discussion and derails the thread.
I totally agree with your statement as to how any police officer should have addressed this situation.

I also agree that any police officer should respond to all calls and find out what the issue and then act on it appropriately.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #306 on: July 11, 2020, 01:02:15 PM »
I also agree that any police officer should respond to all calls and find out what the issue and then act on it appropriately.

Firstly, the calls should be getting filtered so that officers are not being sent on spurious calls.

Second, surely one of the core takeaways from the database of recent police brutality is that they are NOT acting appropriately...

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #307 on: July 11, 2020, 03:54:04 PM »
I also agree that any police officer should respond to all calls and find out what the issue and then act on it appropriately.

Firstly, the calls should be getting filtered so that officers are not being sent on spurious calls.

I think that idea could be a slippery slope. Who’s going to make that determination and what if they get it wrong?

Police should respond if they are called.

However if someone has made a spurious call, like some we’ve seen in the news lately, there should be strict penalties for it.

Also, I think we are mostly in agreement in this thread that police need to be better trained all around. This requires more funds, and/or redistribution of funds (not defunding) - supporting programs meant for education on different cultures, bias awareness, and deescalation tactics.
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #308 on: July 11, 2020, 04:17:38 PM »
I also agree that any police officer should respond to all calls and find out what the issue and then act on it appropriately.

Firstly, the calls should be getting filtered so that officers are not being sent on spurious calls.

I think that idea could be a slippery slope. Who’s going to make that determination and what if they get it wrong?

Police should respond if they are called.

However if someone has made a spurious call, like some we’ve seen in the news lately, there should be strict penalties for it.

Also, I think we are mostly in agreement in this thread that police need to be better trained all around. This requires more funds, and/or redistribution of funds (not defunding) - supporting programs meant for education on different cultures, bias awareness, and deescalation tactics.

If the report is that someone is dancing in the street, you don't need to send armed officers, you need to send someone who has training in mental health and conflict deescalation.  You can always have armed officers on standby as well in case the situation is more dangerous than it seems.  You not need to send armed officers in to every situation.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #309 on: July 14, 2020, 05:46:15 PM »
A world without police looks like "a suburb" according to liberal dem leadership.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #310 on: July 14, 2020, 08:11:01 PM »
A world without police looks like "a suburb" according to liberal dem leadership.

Why is he "imagining" this?

Defunding the police is not the same as total removal of police. Defunding means reallocating budgets so that (for instance) the police spend what they do get on things which work for the community, as opposed to acquisition of military-grade hardware to be used against citizens exercising their first amendment right to free speech and assembly.

The suggestion is that, for instance, schools police should not be investing in grenade launchers.

Defunding is suggested in order to balance up the budget in some cities, where it can be seen that the police budget is greater than the amount spent on EVERYTHING else by the city. The police force is getting over half the budget. The city budget is effectively the police budget, with all others fighting for the scraps.
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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #311 on: July 14, 2020, 09:18:52 PM »
Defunding the police is not the same as total removal of police. Defunding means reallocating budgets so that (for instance) the police spend what they do get on things which work for the community, as opposed to acquisition of military-grade hardware to be used against citizens exercising their first amendment right to free speech and assembly.
Right. Exactly this.

This is where the level of debate in the public arena is so depressingly low and polarised.
Tucker deliberately conflates defunding the police with the removal of police when that just isn't what defunding the police means.
So he builds the strawman and knocks it down.

"Maybe we should have some restriction on the more powerful guns.
"THEY WANT TO TAKE ALL OUR GUNS AWAY!"

"Maybe we should spend less of our budget on police and more on some community programmes intended to reduce criminal behaviour"
"THEY WANT TO REMOVE ALL THE POLICE!"

*sigh*...
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #312 on: July 14, 2020, 09:43:56 PM »
Defunding the police is not the same as total removal of police. Defunding means reallocating budgets so that (for instance) the police spend what they do get on things which work for the community, as opposed to acquisition of military-grade hardware to be used against citizens exercising their first amendment right to free speech and assembly.

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Tucker deliberately conflates defunding the police with the removal of police when that just isn't what defunding the police means.

Incorrect. They are demanding reduced police presence.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/505307-ocasio-cortez-dismisses-proposed-1b-cut-defunding-police-means-defunding

Quote
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) said New York City's proposed $1 billion cut from the police department budget tiptoes around demands from activists who are asking for a reduced police presence.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 02:34:03 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #313 on: July 14, 2020, 09:45:21 PM »
A world without police looks like "a suburb" according to liberal dem leadership.

Why is he "imagining" this?

Because he's trying to scare people. It's what he does. It's what most of them do at Fox News. Amplification and distortion for the purposes of sowing fear is basically all the conservatives have left anymore. At least it seems that way when you listen to their loudest voices.
Go kicking and screaming, lol, it all means the same on January 21st.

Before this is over I'm betting you eat those landslide words :)

Another gullible, delusional "Independent" ::)

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #314 on: July 14, 2020, 10:58:23 PM »
Incorrect again. The movement is about diminishing the police.

https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/505885-former-nypd-commissioner-slams-de-blasio

Quote
Kelly said de Blasio’s proposed $1 billion cut from the police department’s $6 billion budget, which progressive activists have argued tiptoes around their demands for a reduced police presence, was an example of him caving under pressure.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/06/us/what-is-defund-police-trnd/index.html

Quote
There's a growing call to defund the police. Here's what it means

(CNN) There's a growing group of dissenters who believe Americans can survive without law enforcement as we know it. And Americans, those dissenters believe, may even be better off without it.

The solution to police brutality and racial inequalities in policing is simple, supporters say: Just defund police.
It's as straightforward as it sounds: Instead of funding a police department, a sizable chunk of a city's budget is invested in communities, especially marginalized ones where much of the policing occurs.

The concept's been a murmur for years, particularly following the protests against police brutality in Ferguson, Missouri, though it seemed improbable in 2014.

But it's becoming a shout. With the deaths of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor at the hands of police and nationwide protests demanding reform, Minneapolis officials announced their intent to defund and disband the city's police force altogether.

https://www.thecut.com/2020/06/what-does-defund-the-police-mean-the-phrase-explained.html

Quote
As of now, the Minneapolis City Council has not released any specifics regarding its approach to defunding the city’s $193.3 million police budget, though some members have offered general ideas. “We can invest in cultural competency and mental health training, de-escalation and conflict resolution … We can resolve confusion over a $20 grocery transaction without drawing a weapon or pulling out handcuffs,” wrote Councilman Steve Fletcher in an op-ed for Time. “The whole world is watching. We can declare policing as we know it a thing of the past, and create a compassionate, non-violent future.”

It says nothing like the zero-source explanations here that were made up on the spot.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 11:28:13 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #315 on: July 14, 2020, 11:28:18 PM »
there's less crime in the suburbs because all the people living in the suburbs have all the shit they need to get by. they have access to employment and housing and high-quality city services. those are the things that actually reduce violence and property crimes.

it doesn't have shit to do with police presence.
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #316 on: July 15, 2020, 06:00:46 AM »
Incorrect again. The movement is about diminishing the police.

Yes. And instead doing things which mean such a large police presence isn’t necessary.
All the articles you quote explain this but as usual you bold the parts which you think back up your point and ignore the rest.
Now all you need to do is explain why this is a bad thing. The straw man people like you create around this is that defunding the police means you call 911 and no one is there. It doesn’t mean that. It means you spend money on programs intended to deal with the root causes in areas of high crime - those causes usually to do with poverty and the breakdown of families. Again, why is that a bad thing?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #317 on: July 15, 2020, 09:21:16 AM »
Tom, it's clear that many police forces up and down your country have spent an absolute sh*tload of money on equipment which has NO PURPOSE other than to brutalise the citizens who actually fund the police.

The American taxpayer has given some city police forces a budget of greater than HALF the entire city budget; more than 50%; the majority of the budget.

We can see what they spent it on; seemingly endless supplies of -  plexiglass shields; batons and other hand weapons; helmets; body armour; gas masks; plastic zip-tie cuffs; baton rounds, and launchers; rubber bullets & launchers; pepper balls & launchers; tear gas & launchers; flash-bang grenades & launchers, etc, etc. This stuff has NO PURPOSE other than to cause pain and suffering.

Tell us truthfully - wouldn't you prefer that your money went on something other than this in your community?

EDIT - add to the above list, camouflage outfits. For what possible reason would the police want camouflage gear? On the streets of a city? (End edit)


When teachers are dipping into their own pockets to provide educational supplies for their students, wouldn't you agree with at least some money being taken away from the police budget to better educate the children? These are the children of the taxpayers whose money is being spent by the police...

When citizens in your country are queuing up for food banks, wouldn't you prefer that some of that police budget goes on food to feed the taxpayer? 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 11:16:48 AM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #318 on: July 15, 2020, 10:48:13 AM »
There's a video doing the rounds on social media at the moment, showing the New Jersey police citing a citizen for carrying an open beer in public. There's around half a dozen of them pushing him over a park bench, pinning him to the ground, cuffing him, and leading him away.

In another instance, in Portland, a group of around 15 officers swarm someone for chalking on the pavement. later charging them with "destruction of government property". This video is notable for the concerted efforts of around a dozen of these fiften to merely get in the way of the camera, and prevent filming of the three or four who are dogpiling the victim.

Looks like some defunding would help here.

Is there anyone on this forum who thinks that this is a worthwhile use of police time or resources? Is there anyone here who would consider this the result of having too many police standing around, looking for something to do?


In other news, nineteen LAPD officers stand accused of falsification of incident reports, and conspiracy to do so. The criminal complaint against the first three of those officers includes 59 counts of wrongdoing.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #319 on: July 15, 2020, 03:42:52 PM »
Tom, it's clear that many police forces up and down your country have spent an absolute sh*tload of money on equipment which has NO PURPOSE other than to brutalise the citizens who actually fund the police.

That's not what the movement is about, and is your own imagination. See the above quotes. They want fewer or no police.

CNN Video: Could a School Shooting Really Be Handled Without Police? (1m30s)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/videos/us/2020/06/15/school-shooting-police-reform-defund-vf-js-orig.cnn

A couple of guys in the interview clips concede that maybe we do need police, while the BLM co-founder lady says that she wants unarmed people responding to a school shooting. lol

More interviews:

Community leaders discuss what a world without police would look like?

https://youtu.be/RlQGU-hR4d8

"I'm also down with a team of grandmothers showing up to the scene. No one is going to hurt someone's grandma."

Clearly, there are some well thought out plans here by community leadership.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy