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Messages - Tom Bishop

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9141
So now you are assuming the sun and moon are airborne? Less and less Zetetic all the time...

Where did I say that? I don't know what kinds of forces exist at the altitude and scale of the sun and moon, but forces and processes which can make things the same size certainly exist at other locations and scales.

9142
But they both can be subjected to pressure and friction, which is why you do in fact see similar developed boulders and pebbles.

As I said, pebbles are flawless and smooth. What you posted is marred with many fractures and imperfections on the surface. Those boulders obviously didn't go through a rock tumbler process like pebbles do to attain their remarkably smooth and flawless shapes.

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Quote from: Tom
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Now, what makes you think the sun and the moon are similar enough to end up at the same size?

They were subject to the same physical processes which shaped them and keeps them in the system.

Evidence?  They appear to be completely different bodies other than their shape indicating that they have had completely different lifecycles.

Air-borne particles. Particulate matter floating in the air can only get so massive before it falls to the ground. The particulate matter in the air can be composed of a vast array of different materials, but only the particulate matter of a certain mass and size can stay airborne. Therefore the largest particulate matter which is airborne for a long period of time is of similar mass and size.

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Sand Dunes on the Monterey Bay coast can only get so big before they stop growing. The wind acts as a size-limiter. It is not too surprising to see two big sand dunes side by side, of the same height. Likewise, sand dollars can only get so small to where they are not heavy enough to stay pinned to the bottom of the ocean and float away. It is not so surprising to see two small sand dollars of about the same size.

The sun and the moon are not comparable to two sand dollars, you are comparing apples to oranges.

I am bringing up the undeniable fact that there are physical processes which prevent things from getting too small or too large.

Rain drops. When drops are formed, they can only become so small else they are whisked and flitted away away into the air and do not fall properly. They can also only get so large before they break up into multiple drops by air friction. Therefore we have rain drops which can only exist in a narrow size range. The largest of the raindrops are all the same size and the smallest of the rain drops are all the same size.

It makes perfect sense that there are forces in nature which might force types of bodies to be of similar sizes, or even the exact same sizes as exampled by particulate matter in the air, growing sand dunes, and small sand dollars.

9143
The physical processes are the same, but they can produce different results.

No, a pebble attains its shape under a different physical process than a boulder. The boulder does not experience the rock tumbler effect of pebbles in a stream. It exists at a different scale where that does not happen. Hence, pebbles do not get to boulder size.

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Now, what makes you think the sun and the moon are similar enough to end up at the same size?

They were subject to the same physical processes which shaped them and keeps them in the system. The may be made of different materials, as different pebbles in a stream are, but are subject to the same processes.

Sand Dunes on the Monterey Bay coast can only get so big before they stop growing. The wind acts as a size-limiter. It is not too surprising to see two big sand dunes side by side, of the same height. Likewise, sand dollars can only get so small to where they are not heavy enough to stay pinned to the bottom of the shore and easily wash away by the moving water. It is not so surprising to see two small sand dollars of the same size. The physical processes of nature shapes reality into standard templates.

9144
Quote from: markjo
A granite pebble and a granite boulder both contain granite particles, boulders just contain more of them.  Granite does not stop being granite just because it's a different size.

A pebble is much different than a boulder. Pebbles are flawlessly smooth, created by water constantly gushing around them and scraping them together from all angles. The picture of the boulder you posted is not smooth. Even if you go out specifically looking for "smooth boulders" as Rama did, you will not find anything like a scaled up pebble. In his picture the rocks have jagged cracks all over their surfaces.

No, physical processes are the same no matter what the scale, until you get down to the quantum scale.

This is incorrect. A boulder isn't constantly surrounded by gushing water passing over them and scraping them together like rocks in a rock tumbler as a pebble in a stream is. Therefore it will be really hard to find one which is flawlessly eroded and smooth. The physical process of a volcano can't happen at anthill-size scale. A scaled up honey bee to the size of a 747 could not fly. There are a lot of different physical processes that happen at different scales. Any assertion otherwise is laughable.

9145
Oh great. Can you explain how entropy favors this?  Why is the Earth so much bigger than the sun and moon in FET?

The earth is not subject to the same physical processes which shapes the smaller celestial bodies above it. They exist at different scales and so it stands to reason that different physics would apply. Why don't we see rocks shaped to the same shape as a mountain? That is because those two things, at different scales, are subjected to different physical processes to shape them.

Quote from: Rama
Let's go one more... Have you ever seen a sun the same size as a moon?

Yes. See the OP.

Actually, everything does not come in various sizes. Do the atoms of the ocean come in various sizes?
Are you suggesting that hydrogen atoms are the same size as oxygen atoms?

All protons are the same size. All electrons are the same size. Hydrogen atoms and Oxygen atoms are merely different configurations of protons and electrons. A hydrogen atom has one proton and an oxygen atom has eight. When they combine they form a water molecule, which is universally the same size. All of these things exist, at similar sizes, at an orderly and predictable atomic scale. Atoms and molecules do not simply come in "various sizes".

Quote from: markjo
"Pebble" and "boulder" are names for the relative sizes of rocks, not rocks themselves.

A pebble is defined by its smooth features. A boulder with smooth features like that wouldn't be found in nature because the physical processes which shape a pebble do not apply to rocks the size of boulders. Thus, pebbles do not come in boulder size.

Quote from: markjo
I would contend that mouse embryos and elephant embryos start out about the same size.

I thought you were supposed to be arguing that things came in wildly different sizes?

Embryos being the same size in their mother's wombs goes to show that things are of suitable sizes in their environments.

Quote from: markjo
Yes, I get that you completely miss my point.  Mice and elephants are mammals that are vastly different in size.  Pebbles and boulders are rocks that are vastly different in size. 

I could go on, but you get my drift.

A mouse would not be the size of an elephant and a elephant would not be the size of a mouse because evolution would not shape a creature in those ways, at those scales. Pebbles and boulders have different features, which can only exist at their different scales. Your argument that "just about everything in nature comes in various sizes" is simply incorrect. There is a certain template which things fall in. Volcanoes are always going to be huge, and atoms and molecules are always going to be small, and never vice versa. There are physical laws which shapes matter into their respective places.

9146
It also makes sense to have a universe with kinds of bodies that are the same sizes. Not wildly different sizes, where one star can be thousands or millions of times bigger than another.

Ehhh.... Not really. Makes sense to you maybe, but what physical principle are proposing that favors this kind of extreme homogeneity?

All of them.

It also makes sense to have a universe with kinds of bodies that are the same sizes. Not wildly different sizes, where one star can be thousands or millions of times bigger than another.
Just about everything in nature comes in various sizes.  Why should celestial bodies be any different?

Actually, everything does not come in various sizes. Do the atoms of the ocean come in various sizes? Have you ever seen a pebble as big as a boulder? Ever seen an elephant as small as a mouse, or a volcano as big as an ant hill?

I could go on, but you get my drift.

9147
Does FET have a better answer?

A better answer is that the moon and sun appear to be the same size because they are the same size.

It also makes sense to have a universe with kinds of bodies that are the same sizes. Not wildly different sizes, where one star can be thousands or millions of times bigger than another.

9148
...

As far as I know RET has been claiming that the sun is over a million times larger than the earth, and that the earth is over four times larger than the moon, which is why I said the sun is over 4 million times larger than the moon in the OP. I don't know where they got about "400 times the size" from.

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You're making the sophomoric mistake of confusing the usages of "size", mass and diameter. See: http://planetfacts.org/how-big-is-the-sun-compared-to-the-earth/

Your link agrees with me that the sun is over a million times larger than the earth. I don't see what the confusion is. Typically if someone were talking about diameter, mass or surface area, that would specified. That is not what is typically meant my larger. In a comparing of size, the sun in RET is millions of times larger than the moon.

The source in Thork's link may have been talking about diameter.

Sun's Diameter 1,391,684 km / Moon's Diameter 3,474.8 km = 400.5

400.5 moons laid side to side in a straight line can make up the diameter of the sun, but I wouldn't use that in a sentence to say that the sun was 400 times larger than the moon. The author of the link is clearly incorrect in their wording.

9149
Yes, coincidence is the best answer Round Earth Scientists can come up with. The sun is 400 times the size of the moon and 400 times further away ... apparently.


Quote from: http://www.evidencetoconsider.com/astronomical/the-solar-eclipse-odds
Thus the solar eclipse is against the odds in any solar system.


You can read the full article here

As far as I know RET has been claiming that the sun is over a million times larger than the earth, and that the earth is over four times larger than the moon, which is why I said the sun is over 4 million times larger than the moon in the OP. I don't know where they got about "400 times the size" from.

But they are right, it is a cosmic coincidence!

What is that, like a 5% difference in size? I took the width of the sun (515px) and compared it to the width of the moon (482px). Plugging those values into this calculator tells me that the difference in size is 6.6199% difference.

It still seems like an odd coincidence that both the sun are both 0.5 degrees in the sky, give or take 0.0066 degrees in some situations.

Yeah, and?

To quote Richard Feynman:

“You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight... I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!"

Yes it is not likely, but that does not make it untrue, nor is it evidence of anything.  More of a doubt that can be used as a springboard for productive investigation.

It would be a coincidence if he happened to come across two plates that were sequential to each other. That the sun is 0.5 degrees all by itself is not a coincidence. But that both the sun and the moon, the two most important bodies in the earth's sky are nearly exactly the same size in the sky with such great distances and sizes involved, is astonishing.

9150
What is that, like a 5% difference in size? I took the width of the sun (515px) and compared it to the width of the moon (482px). Plugging those values into this calculator tells me that the difference in size is 6.6199% difference.

It still seems like an odd coincidence that both the sun and moon are both 0.5 degrees in the sky, give or take 0.0066 degrees in some situations.

9151
Here is a new one. During a Solar Eclipse the body of the moon perfectly covers the sun. It is remarkable. They are the same size. Is it just some kind of astonishing coincidence that a body over four million times larger than the moon happens to be located at just the right spot that the sun and moon are identical in size, each with a diameter of 0.5 degrees of the sky?



9152
Flat Earth Community / Re: No Transmission Delays to the Moon
« on: February 26, 2015, 08:57:13 AM »
"If you have any, yeah, some of those today" is the question.

9153
Flat Earth Community / Re: No Transmission Delays to the Moon
« on: February 26, 2015, 03:54:15 AM »
Except your bastardization cut out the question the astro-not was replying to. Right after that part where you cut off huston, huston asks a question, to which the answer is immediately "No".

9154
Flat Earth Community / Re: No Transmission Delays to the Moon
« on: February 25, 2015, 11:50:43 PM »
Did you watch the video? At the beginning of the first video the author criticizes that NASA has been going through the videos hosted on their site and adding in pauses where none previously existed. That is why the audio the author is playing is different than the audio on NASA's website.

But they missed this one: Download this clip (129MB) https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a17/a17v.1692526.mpg

Listen to the last 15 seconds of that clip. Schmitt says "No, we emptied those into 5" immediately after Huston asks the question.

A negative answer of "No" cannot be given until the question is asked. How did the astronaut know what Huston was going to ask before they asked it? If the audio was being recorded at mission control there should have been a pause of at least 2.5 seconds before we hear the astronaut's reply.

Expect to see this video edited in the next couple of years. NASA likes to let the sensation die down and then go back and edit their mistakes (ie. the "C" rock).

9155
Flat Earth Community / Re: No Transmission Delays to the Moon
« on: February 24, 2015, 11:11:36 AM »
Pt 2.


9156
Flat Earth Community / No Transmission Delays to the Moon
« on: February 24, 2015, 11:10:05 AM »
How does Round Earth Theory explain the fact that the astronauts on the moon were communicating with Huston faster than the speed of light?


9157
Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: Lets agree on a chapter format
« on: February 22, 2015, 03:30:26 AM »
Dionysios, I agree with all of your ideas and move that they be implemented. I agree that the History of RET should be in The Conspiracy section. I am interested in seeing your Table of Contents for the History of FET. I don't have a problem with your envisioning of the size of this volume.

I volunteer to work on Zetetic Vs. Theoretic for Volume I. That is a topic I am very much interested in discussing at length.

9158
Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: Lets agree on a chapter format
« on: February 17, 2015, 11:16:09 PM »
I sort of agree with Dionysis that the topics should be closer together. Perhaps we should discuss the Conspiracy right after we discuss the history of RET and before we get into the Flat Earth mechanics. In my opinion people usually want to know about how pictures from space are explained before getting into the mechanics of the seasons.

Maybe:

Volume I   : Introduction
Volume II  : The Conspiracy
Volume III : Terra Firma
Volume IV : The Cosmos

I also like that the topic of the Conspiracy is up top because the evidence that there is a space hoax is strong, replete with photographic and continuity errors, and it will be the first thing people see. Once the idea of a Conspiracy is established people will be more open to other ideas about the world if that source could not be trusted.

We should have a separate thread where we discuss what chapters we want to work on.

9159
Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: School Outreach Project
« on: February 17, 2015, 07:19:36 PM »
I like this. Yaakov, I think they might bite. Teachers like to say that they're teaching their students to think critically. Even looking at it from an obstinate globularist's perspective, I think they'd love to teach a controversy like this one. Their students will be offended by the idea that the Earth is flat and will have to think critically and work together to 'disprove' the notion (presumably to their teacher's satisfaction, rather than to ours).

In fact, I've seen conspiracy theories in the past that this entire society is a clever ploy to get kids to think critically. It's not true, obviously, but I think it could have some merit.

All this being said, I'm not sure this is a thread which belongs in the workshop. Shouldn't this be in the ZC board? I could be completely wrong about this, I haven't even had internet access most of the time for the last few months, but I was of the impression that this board was for discussion of ENaG and nothing else.

My idea was to have kids write to us, which we would answer and use as content for the Earth Not a Globe book.

9160
Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: School Outreach Project
« on: February 13, 2015, 11:31:18 PM »
The intention was to get them to write in to us, but the PDF handout is a good idea. Maybe we can include some common exercises the teacher can go over to encourage critical thinking. Teachers like exercises. We can encourage teachers to split their students into small teams of Flat Earthers Vs. Round Earthers. The Flat Earthers have to come up with an argument in favor of a Flat Earth and the Round Earthers have to shoot it down, and vice versa. It will challenge students to research the matter and think for themselves.

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