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Messages - Tom Bishop

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1
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: December 03, 2019, 09:32:45 PM »
Where does he state that it's a thought experiment?
"For others it is the fact that it is possible to probe Einstein's theory experimentally that is most compelling"

Oh, and let me add to this the fact that he begins the whole discussion of the experiment with the words: "Think now about what all of this means in a practical situation.  Consider ..."

I don't see where it's stated that the statements he gives do not represent what is occurring in General Relativity. The author clearly states, several times, that the surface of the earth is accelerating upwards through curved space-time, and this is the cause for why bodies of different masses fall at the same rate in the Galileo experiment.

Another paper on the same topic: https://www.docdroid.net/AbDLJgt/earths-surface-accelerates-upwards.pdf

2
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: December 03, 2019, 03:25:08 PM »
Where does he state that it's a thought experiment?

3
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: December 03, 2019, 02:27:13 PM »
We have a source from a physicist which says that the surface of the earth is accelerating upwards through curved space-time.

Quote
the surface of the Earth can accelerate upwards at every point on its surface, and remain as a solid object, is because it exists in a curved space-time and not in a flat space.

Do you have anything to support your opinion that he is wrong or mistating things?

4
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: December 03, 2019, 01:24:27 PM »
It clearly says that gravity occurs in GR because the earth is accelerating upwards through space-time.

Quote
Going back to Galileo's experiment on the leaning tower of Pisa, we can now see why he observed all of his cannonballs to fall at the same rate. It wasn't really the cannonballs that were accelerating away from Galileo at all, it was Galileo that was accelerating away from the cannonballs!

Quote from: AllAroundTheWorld
Which makes it very clear that it is the sky diver moving, not the earth?

Did you read the content? It says the opposite:

Quote
we realize that the skydiver is not accelerating, while the person who stands on the surface of the Earth is accelerating. Just the opposite of what we usually think.

5
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: December 03, 2019, 05:40:43 AM »
Yep. The official explanation is that the surface of the earth is accelerating upwards through space-time.
Do you have a link to some recognized or suitably qualified physicist stating this (preferably not a link to the FE wiki)?  I'd be seriously interested in seeing how they come to that conclusion.  Or are you trying to apply Einstein's equivalency theory?

Right here:

Relativity and Accelerating Upwards:

Quote
Consider a skydiver jumping out of an airplane. The skydiver falls freely, up to the effects of air resistance. According to Einstein, the skydiver's path is the straightest line possible through the curved space-time around the Earth. From the skydiver's perspective this seems quite natural. Except for the air rushing past her, the skydiver feels no perturbing forces at all. In fact, if it weren't for the air resistance, she would experience weightlessness in the same way that an astronaut does in orbit. The only reason we think the skydiver is accelerating is because we are used to using the surface of the Earth as our frame of reference. If we free ourselves from this convention, then we have no reason to think the skydiver is accelerating at all.

Now consider yourself on the ground, looking up at the falling daredevil. Normally, your intuitive description of your own motion would be that you are stationary. But again this is only because of our slavish regard to the Earth as the arbiter of what is at rest and what is moving. Free yourself from this prison, and you realize that you are, in fact, accelerating. You feel a force on the soles of your feet that pushes you upwards, in the same way that you would if you were in a lift that accelerated upwards very quickly. In Einstein's picture there is no difference between your experience sanding on Earth and your experience in the lift. In both situations you are accelerating upwards. In the latter situation it is the lift that is responsible for your acceleration. In the former, it is the fact that the Earth is solid that pushes you upwards through space-time, knocking you off your free-fall trajectory. That the surface of the Earth can accelerate upwards at every point on its surface, and remain as a solid object, is because it exists in a curved space-time and not in a flat space.

With this change in perspective the true nature of gravity becomes apparent. The free falling skydiver is brought to Earth because the space-time through which she falls is curved. It is not an external force that tugs her downwards, but her own natural motion through a curved space. On the other hand, as a person standing on the ground, the pressure you feel on the soles of your feet is due to the rigidity of the Earth pushing you upwards. Again, there is no external force pulling you to Earth. It is only the electrostatic forces in the rocks below your feet that keep the ground rigid, and that prevents you from taking what would be your natural motion (which would also be free fall).

So, if we free ourselves from defining our motion with respect to the surface of the Earth we realize that the skydiver is not accelerating, while the person who stands on the surface of the Earth is accelerating. Just the opposite of what we usually think. Going back to Galileo's experiment on the leaning tower of Pisa, we can now see why he observed all of his cannonballs to fall at the same rate. It wasn't really the cannonballs that were accelerating away from Galileo at all, it was Galileo that was accelerating away from the cannonballs!

Author info:

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/gravity-a-very-short-introduction-9780198729143?cc=us&lang=en&#

Quote
Dr Timothy Clifton studied under John Barrow in Cambridge and is now a lecturer at Queen Mary, University of London. He is a specialist in gravitational physics. He has published many research papers on the subject, as well as co-authoring a cover story on gravity in Scientific American.

6
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Session problems on the Wiki
« on: December 01, 2019, 04:18:43 AM »
When I checkmark the stay logged in option it seems to keep me logged in, but when I try to edit it gives me this error:

Quote
Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data.

You might have been logged out. Please verify that you're still logged in and try again. If it still does not work, try logging out and logging back in, and check that your browser allows cookies from this site.

7
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: Session problems on the Wiki
« on: November 30, 2019, 08:29:09 PM »
I gave it another try. On a desktop Chrome browser I logged in, navigated to a page, performed an edit, and it logged me out when I hit "submit".

Edit: I was ale to get a few edits to go through, but it is constantly logging out and is in a, in my opinion, unusable state for editors.

8
I see that SpaceX is putting up satellites for Argentina, Indonesia, Tiawan, Bulgaria, Japan, and Malasia. Interesting that the zealots claim that that space is an international endeavor, yet a few organizations are relied on for access.

9
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 29, 2019, 09:10:17 PM »
It's pretty crazy that the official explanation for gravity is that the surface of the earth is accelerating upwards through space-time. That alone shows everything else to be questionable.

10
Suggestions & Concerns / Session problems on the Wiki
« on: November 29, 2019, 06:20:25 AM »
It seems that after a recent Wiki software update I have a hard time staying logged in. After logging in and going to make an edit, the Wiki will log me out when I go to press submit. After several attempts I might get an edit to go through. It is happening on Chrome and Firefox on a desktop, as well as Chrome on an Android phone.

11
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 27, 2019, 06:16:41 PM »


Quote
Yep. The official explanation is that the surface of the earth is accelerating upwards through space-time.


I sometimes wonder if and FEer even understands what GR is and what it means.  First of all, it postulates, and is dependent upon the Newtonian concept of gravity that matter “attracts” matter being correct.  It is just a proposed theory has to how/why that happens. In Einstein’s field calculations, G is the gravitational constant from Newton's law of gravitation, Guv is the metric tensor, which describes spacetime and gravitational potential and Tuv is the stress-energy tensor, which is the source of the gravitational field.  So if you want to try and use GR to support UA, you can’t do so without also accepting the Newtonian concept of gravity that matter “attracts” matter.  If GR is true, then it is also true that matter “attracts” matter.  It is, after all, a theory of gravitation.

The how or why shouldn’t be relevant to FE because no matter how or why it happens, ultimately, the fact that it does ends with a sphere earth.

We have some pages on the topic of the universal gravitation of mass here: https://wiki.tfes.org/General_Physics

Feel free to address them.

12
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 26, 2019, 11:42:26 PM »
Yep. The official explanation is that the surface of the earth is accelerating upwards through space-time.

13
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 25, 2019, 06:24:59 PM »
General Relativity is an upwardly accelerating earth simulator.

Relativity and Accelerating Upwards:

Quote
Consider a skydiver jumping out of an airplane. The skydiver falls freely, up to the effects of air resistance. According to Einstein, the skydiver's path is the straightest line possible through the curved space-time around the Earth. From the skydiver's perspective this seems quite natural. Except for the air rushing past her, the skydiver feels no perturbing forces at all. In fact, if it weren't for the air resistance, she would experience weightlessness in the same way that an astronaut does in orbit. The only reason we think the skydiver is accelerating is because we are used to using the surface of the Earth as our frame of reference. If we free ourselves from this convention, then we have no reason to think the skydiver is accelerating at all.

Now consider yourself on the ground, looking up at the falling daredevil. Normally, your intuitive description of your own motion would be that you are stationary. But again this is only because of our slavish regard to the Earth as the arbiter of what is at rest and what is moving. Free yourself from this prison, and you realize that you are, in fact, accelerating. You feel a force on the soles of your feet that pushes you upwards, in the same way that you would if you were in a lift that accelerated upwards very quickly. In Einstein's picture there is no difference between your experience sanding on Earth and your experience in the lift. In both situations you are accelerating upwards. In the latter situation it is the lift that is responsible for your acceleration. In the former, it is the fact that the Earth is solid that pushes you upwards through space-time, knocking you off your free-fall trajectory. That the surface of the Earth can accelerate upwards at every point on its surface, and remain as a solid object, is because it exists in a curved space-time and not in a flat space.

With this change in perspective the true nature of gravity becomes apparent. The free falling skydiver is brought to Earth because the space-time through which she falls is curved. It is not an external force that tugs her downwards, but her own natural motion through a curved space. On the other hand, as a person standing on the ground, the pressure you feel on the soles of your feet is due to the rigidity of the Earth pushing you upwards. Again, there is no external force pulling you to Earth. It is only the electrostatic forces in the rocks below your feet that keep the ground rigid, and that prevents you from taking what would be your natural motion (which would also be free fall).

So, if we free ourselves from defining our motion with respect to the surface of the Earth we realize that the skydiver is not accelerating, while the person who stands on the surface of the Earth is accelerating. Just the opposite of what we usually think. Going back to Galileo's experiment on the leaning tower of Pisa, we can now see why he observed all of his cannonballs to fall at the same rate. It wasn't really the cannonballs that were accelerating away from Galileo at all, it was Galileo that was accelerating away from the cannonballs!

See the bolded. "In both situations you are accelerating upwards" and the Earth is "pushing you upwards through space-time."

Different bodies have different weights because the Earth is accelerating upwards, pushing itself into bodies which have different inertial resistances to being moved through space.

14
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 25, 2019, 05:56:43 PM »
If one body is experiencing a more forceful pull from the earth, as to cause it to weigh more, it does not make sense that all bodies would fall at the same rate.
It does make sense if you understand that it requires a more forceful pull to accelerate an object which is more massive than one which has less mass.

No, it doesn't make sense at all. Gravity also affects photons, which have zero mass.

From a University of Oregon lecture:

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec07.html

Quote
although a simple and common sense assumption, the equivalence principle has strange consequences such as, photons will be affected by gravity, even though they have zero mass


15
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 25, 2019, 04:17:32 PM »
I am sorry that sound confusing, what I mean was that when the mass of the body is the same, the force of gravity act on them equally, and the force is proportional to the weight. If the object has more mass then, the total force that act on the object is higher compare to the one with lower mass, this doesnt change the fact that gravity act on object equally. Imagin putting 1 kg weight on a scale and 2 1 kg weight on the scale. The scale will show more weight on the one with 2 1 kg weight. If you were to drop all of them at the same time, the acceleration of all of them will be equal, if you merge all of them together doesnt change the total force acting on it or the total mass. And you will get the same acceleration if you use the formular F=ma

If one body is experiencing a more forceful pull from the earth, as to cause it to weigh more, it does not make sense that all bodies would fall at the same rate.

An answer of "Just because they do" is not a very satisfying mechanism, IMO.

16
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 25, 2019, 04:55:51 AM »
The body that consist of more matter will have more weight because gravity act more on it as a whole.

I thought that you just told us that gravity acts on all bodies the same? Now gravity is acting on some bodies more? So why do bowling balls and marbles fall at the same rate again with everything magically equaling out?

17
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 25, 2019, 12:46:37 AM »
If gravity acted on all objects as if they all had the same inertial resistance/weight then all bodies would have the same weight on a scale.

Why do bodies have different weights if a mystical phenomena is pulling all atoms in objects with the same force, as if all bodies had the same weight, solely to explain for us why bodies fall without exhibition of inertial resistance?

18
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 24, 2019, 01:21:56 AM »
How does gravity pull object down to the earth at the same rate and ignore the fact that bodies have different inertial resistences to being moved through space?

It's easier to roll a marble versus a bowling ball, for example. All bodies exhibit internal resistences when they are moved through space.

19
What makes you think that the rockets have no payload that its operators are deploying for financial benefit?

20
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Help me believe
« on: November 22, 2019, 08:13:03 PM »
I became aware of the Flat Earth theory via the documentary on Netflix and chill. It seems like some of their experiments did not work. But the argument seems valid that the Earth is indeed flat based on personal accounts. Were these guys just incompetent? Or are they in on it in trying to keep us all in the dark?

Read the second post on the front page of https://tfes.org

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