Offline hexagon

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2018, 08:18:30 AM »
Just to put these numbers in relation to the interest in real science. At our four spring meetings (each covering different areas) of our national physical society we had more than 10000 attendees with almost everyone giving either a oral or poster presentation. In my home country the number of students who started to study physics roughly tripled over the last 20 years. I assume this is not much different in other countries. Regarding the number of applications we get from countries like China, Korea, India or countries from the Middle East, I guess the increase there is even much, much higher. I also assume similar numbers from other areas of science, engineering and technology.

On the other hand, there seems to be indeed a growing interest in different kinds of pseudoscience, conspiracy theories and extreme political orientations. But I guess this is mainly an effect of the internet, which allows for a higher grade of attention, exchange and organization. You no longer feel alone with you weird ideas.

It is also a win for the classical media to pick up a story like the one of this self-made rocket man compared to going through the thousands of real scientific results published every week and make a compelling story out of it. That's a hard job compared to the few clicks you will maybe generate with this. But it enhances the impression there is something really going on in the field of pseudoscience, especially for their believers...           

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2018, 08:31:56 AM »


Much like the American convention, this event came very close to filling its venue to its fire safety capacity.

The Jury’s Inn has a capacity for 275 delegates (according to its website). If 200 attended then that is less than 75%, and not what I would call “very close to filling its venue”

Where did you get the information about the venues fire safety certificate? Can you show that there is even such a thing for the Jury’s Inn? Or are you just making things up again?
Your claim, you need to back it up.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2018, 12:06:14 PM »
Can you show that there is even such a thing for the Jury’s Inn?
Yes - it happened in the UK. If it didn't have a fire safety capacity, it would not exist. Much like your confusion about party conventions vs. conferences, this is not a controversial statement when you're at least mildly familiar with the context of the situation.

Again - remember that I don't care if you agree with me about our growth. What you think has no bearing on the situation - I'm just hoping to soften the blow once you do realise what's happening. You are welcome to do with it as you will. If your decision is to ignore one piece of evidence after another, that's on you. It just won't be sustainable in the long term.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 12:08:49 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tontogary

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2018, 12:21:41 PM »
Can you show that there is even such a thing for the Jury’s Inn?
Yes - it happened in the UK. If it didn't have a fire safety capacity, it would not exist. Much like your confusion about party conventions vs. conferences, this is not a controversial statement when you're at least mildly familiar with the context of the situation.

Again - remember that I don't care if you agree with me about our growth. What you think has no bearing on the situation - I'm just hoping to soften the blow once you do realise what's happening. You are welcome to do with it as you will. If your decision is to ignore one piece of evidence after another, that's on you. It just won't be sustainable in the long term.

There we go again, strawmanning.
I never started the conversation about political parties it was you, so stop lying.
And did you read the dictionary links i sent? Obviously not.

How about the assertion that the FE gathering was almost full, when it was less than 75% hmmm, very close to capacity eh?

My statement, was that 200 people out of 70 million turned up. That is not in error, and no matter what you do I to try to spin it, trotting out a completely obscure fact that 40 times more people turn up to a “brony” convention?? (Dedicated to adult fans of a kiddies cartoon show???) really puts it into perspective.

Obviously the kiddies animated show has more importance and draw than overturning the world of physics, and potentially government changing revelations, or is that a reflection on what people in the US (or wherever the “Brony gathering” was)

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2018, 12:24:44 PM »
I never started the conversation about political parties it was you, so stop lying.
Who started the conversation is irrelevant - you're still the one who mistook a party conference for a party convention, which serves as evidence that you're not aware of the context.

And did you read the dictionary links i sent? Obviously not.
Just because words can mean something, doesn't mean they universally do mean it in a given context.

How about the assertion that the FE gathering was almost full, when it was less than 75% hmmm, very close to capacity eh?
Your assertion is false.

My statement, was that 200 people out of 70 million turned up.
Indeed - how hilarious that you'd do that. Comparing attendance of a single event to the population of a country, and to the membership of self-identified groups. Hopefully you've learned your lesson.
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Offline Tontogary

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2018, 01:17:18 PM »
I find it hard to be lectured to by someone who measures the understanding of the world around them by whether you know about a Brony gathering.......

As I said, you really lost credibility with that one.

So you didnt say

“much like the American convention, this event came very close to filling its venue to its fire safety capacity”??

When does less than 75% count as “Very close to filling” or is there some other definition, (Maybe in a different context) that you are using?
And as i can see a number of different publications covered the gathering i am willing to suggest the actual number of genuine FEers was somewhat below 200, once you take out the press, and sceptics, they would have been left with certainly less than 200.

And as for “knowing” more about the numbers of FEers, but cant tell, (your claim, you prove it) However if it makes you feel all grown up and superior to keep that thing a secret, I guess you wont let on.
However I could not see how a society that claims to be transparent is hiding such information? It certainly cannot harm the believers unless it turns out they are in such a small minority’s they become completely insignificant.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2018, 01:44:29 PM »
If your decision is to ignore one piece of evidence after another, that's on you.
My irony-meter just exploded...  :D

This is all quite sweet. I've realised you seem to think that the flat earth movement is actually sweeping the gl...er, plane.
Admittedly you guys are getting quite a lot of coverage in the media but much of it has a mocking tone.
By the power of the internet it's easier for crazies to talk to one another.
But this site is hardly booming, most of the posts are from round earthers. The FE Convention in the UK was hilariously amateurish.

I don't think I need to be too worried about us regressing into another dark ages just yet.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2018, 06:19:29 PM »
Admittedly you guys are getting quite a lot of coverage in the media but much of it has a mocking tone.
Entertain this thought for a moment: let's say that for every x people who find out about the Flat Earth Theory, one of them is going to accept it. I'm sure we'll disagree about the value of x, but that's why I want to leave it undefined here.

Now, let's say that a few years ago, x people would regularly be exposed to our content. Today, it is 10x. Even without me disclosing anything sensitve, you have to be able to discern that the growth of the FE movement's popularity necessarily translates into the growth of the movement itself. This is the very principle behind our "all publicity is good publicity" approach - whether or not you want to believe me that it's working out fantastically is obviously up to you ;)
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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2018, 07:17:03 PM »
I've already said I'm quite happy to believe you are growing. The internet makes all kinds of crazy ideas easy to spread and if crazy ideas are spread then as you say 'x' percent of people may come to believe them.

I happen to think that x is very low in this case. Let's say a million people in the UK come to believe this. That is, objectively, a LOT of people. But percentage wise...I'd still be unlikely to know many people who believe it if that were the case. I'd suggest the number right now is orders of magnitude less than that. Now, admittedly, you may have a better feel for the numbers than me. But the number of people who attended the conference, the sort of people speaking and the amateurish feel about the whole thing makes me believe you're somewhat deluded if you think that you lot are on the march and are having a big impact.

I sympathise to an extent, I'm an admin on another board which was actually pretty popular back in the day - you don't publish your post stats here but certainly in the upper fora it's what, maybe 50 posts a day? The board I run in its pomp got about 2,500 posts a day, we were quoted in a couple of papers, we had quite successful meetups and I did feel some giddy excitement at the thought that we might grow and grow. Didn't happen of course. But my take on this is you're enjoying your 5 minutes of "fame" a little too much and getting a little deluded about how popular this movement is becoming. Tom is a bit more realistic (see my sig).

But hey, I guess if I'm still here trying to teach Tom about perspective in 5 years time then we'll see who's right...
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2018, 07:32:15 PM »
But hey, I guess if I'm still here trying to teach Tom about perspective in 5 years time then we'll see who's right...
There were people like you saying similar things 5 years ago, and 10 years ago. Suffice to say it's likely that we'll outlast you ;)
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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2018, 07:36:55 PM »
Honestly. I doubt I'll stay here long as even in my short time here I've seen that the same few debates go on over and over again and most debates follow a pretty familiar pattern.
I'm just here to pass time really, it's either that or doing work.
But when the FES has achieved world domination and you are president of the flat earth I'll come back and apologise for doubting you.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline isaacN

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2018, 08:52:51 PM »
Admittedly you guys are getting quite a lot of coverage in the media but much of it has a mocking tone.
Entertain this thought for a moment: let's say that for every x people who find out about the Flat Earth Theory, one of them is going to accept it. I'm sure we'll disagree about the value of x, but that's why I want to leave it undefined here.

Now, let's say that a few years ago, x people would regularly be exposed to our content. Today, it is 10x. Even without me disclosing anything sensitve, you have to be able to discern that the growth of the FE movement's popularity necessarily translates into the growth of the movement itself. This is the very principle behind our "all publicity is good publicity" approach - whether or not you want to believe me that it's working out fantastically is obviously up to you ;)

Do you honestly believe that a small gathering of people at a hotel in England is of any signifacence? If you do then you really have to think again. Why would you imagine that such an insignificant number when measured on global terms would have any influence on any thing that really mattered? There have always been fringe groups living on the fringes! and thats the environment you will continue to inhabit. How many chairs of flat earth studies do you currently have at universities any where in the world? The organisers of the flat earth gig in England were a musician, and an office administrator, hardly an earth shattering duo.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2018, 12:22:38 PM »
Can you show that there is even such a thing for the Jury’s Inn?
Yes - it happened in the UK. If it didn't have a fire safety capacity, it would not exist. Much like your confusion about party conventions vs. conferences, this is not a controversial statement when you're at least mildly familiar with the context of the situation.

Again - remember that I don't care if you agree with me about our growth. What you think has no bearing on the situation - I'm just hoping to soften the blow once you do realise what's happening. You are welcome to do with it as you will. If your decision is to ignore one piece of evidence after another, that's on you. It just won't be sustainable in the long term.

You must be talking about the Fire Risk Assessment, (a UK regulatory requirement) not a fire safety capacity. I do wish you would get your facts right before you spout on (ignorantly) about something, of which you are uninformed.

Also having checked the Jurys inn has a much higher capacity than 275, that is the max number it can hold in 1 room, the next largest room can hold 200.

The bottom line is they didnt get anywhere near the venues capacity, as assessed in the Fire Risk Assessment.



Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2018, 12:57:17 PM »
I don't think it really matters whether the room was bursting at the seams or half full, the point is it was in a small venue, a couple of hundred people attended and the speakers included an NHS manager, a former graphic designer and a Bolton-based dance musician.

Their website still has a "countdown" counter (minus 16 days and counting...) and a "Register Now" button on.

It's all very low-rent and completely at odds with Pete's giddy excitement about how brilliantly they're doing. It doesn't have the hallmarks of a serious organisation.

It's hardly a movement which is sweeping the "disc". Interest has certainly increased so they have done well to publicise themselves but much of that publicity is people pointing and laughing.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2018, 02:33:43 PM »
I don't think it really matters whether the room was bursting at the seams or half full, the point is it was in a small venue, a couple of hundred people attended and the speakers included an NHS manager, a former graphic designer and a Bolton-based dance musician.

Their website still has a "countdown" counter (minus 16 days and counting...) and a "Register Now" button on.

It's all very low-rent and completely at odds with Pete's giddy excitement about how brilliantly they're doing. It doesn't have the hallmarks of a serious organisation.

It's hardly a movement which is sweeping the "disc". Interest has certainly increased so they have done well to publicise themselves but much of that publicity is people pointing and laughing.

True, I was wondering how many of the attendees were press and sceptics out for a bit of a giggle? With the price as it was, maybe a few sceptics, and probably half a dozen press, so that makes the numbers somewhat smaller.

I think most decent sized pubs could hold that many attendees!

I looked at hate website, and did notice a fair amount of the speakers were from one organisation, and a NHS manager, a graphic designer and dance musician are hardly world renown scientists about to uncover some radical new ideas. Although the PacMan idea did rather make me giggle a bit!

As you say, i doubt real science has anything to worry about, other than how do they reach out to those who are almost completely closed off from the world, but then there have always been fringes around society who have had wacky ideas, and were mostly given a wide berth, and smirked at behind their backs.......

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Offline edby

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2018, 04:25:34 PM »
I don't think it really matters whether the room was bursting at the seams or half full, the point is it was in a small venue, a couple of hundred people attended and the speakers included an NHS manager, a former graphic designer and a Bolton-based dance musician.

Their website still has a "countdown" counter (minus 16 days and counting...) and a "Register Now" button on.

It's all very low-rent and completely at odds with Pete's giddy excitement about how brilliantly they're doing. It doesn't have the hallmarks of a serious organisation.

It's hardly a movement which is sweeping the "disc". Interest has certainly increased so they have done well to publicise themselves but much of that publicity is people pointing and laughing.

True, I was wondering how many of the attendees were press and sceptics out for a bit of a giggle? With the price as it was, maybe a few sceptics, and probably half a dozen press, so that makes the numbers somewhat smaller.

I think most decent sized pubs could hold that many attendees!

I looked at hate website, and did notice a fair amount of the speakers were from one organisation, and a NHS manager, a graphic designer and dance musician are hardly world renown scientists about to uncover some radical new ideas. Although the PacMan idea did rather make me giggle a bit!

As you say, i doubt real science has anything to worry about, other than how do they reach out to those who are almost completely closed off from the world, but then there have always been fringes around society who have had wacky ideas, and were mostly given a wide berth, and smirked at behind their backs.......
What if an FE becomes a trained pilot?

Offline jcks

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2018, 05:17:41 PM »
I don't think it really matters whether the room was bursting at the seams or half full, the point is it was in a small venue, a couple of hundred people attended and the speakers included an NHS manager, a former graphic designer and a Bolton-based dance musician.

Their website still has a "countdown" counter (minus 16 days and counting...) and a "Register Now" button on.

It's all very low-rent and completely at odds with Pete's giddy excitement about how brilliantly they're doing. It doesn't have the hallmarks of a serious organisation.

It's hardly a movement which is sweeping the "disc". Interest has certainly increased so they have done well to publicise themselves but much of that publicity is people pointing and laughing.

True, I was wondering how many of the attendees were press and sceptics out for a bit of a giggle? With the price as it was, maybe a few sceptics, and probably half a dozen press, so that makes the numbers somewhat smaller.

I think most decent sized pubs could hold that many attendees!

I looked at hate website, and did notice a fair amount of the speakers were from one organisation, and a NHS manager, a graphic designer and dance musician are hardly world renown scientists about to uncover some radical new ideas. Although the PacMan idea did rather make me giggle a bit!

As you say, i doubt real science has anything to worry about, other than how do they reach out to those who are almost completely closed off from the world, but then there have always been fringes around society who have had wacky ideas, and were mostly given a wide berth, and smirked at behind their backs.......
What if an FE becomes a trained pilot?

There is a user here named Treep who claims to be a flat earth pilot (private).

Offline edby

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2018, 05:37:55 PM »
I am not sure if he is entirely serious after looking at this post.
satellites ... They travel west to east in giant wave formation. None go over the poles.
Quote
I found actually this website shows exactly that:

However it does mystify me somewhat as to how does it turn the corner? The forces must be enormous if I try to imagine (dangerous thing). I always recommend to stick to what can be observed. However I have never observed an object travel in such waves. I understand it can have great speed, but what makes this peculiar wave shape?
[..]

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Flat Earth UK Convention
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2018, 12:01:55 AM »
Most pilots who are “old school” would, i suggest, know a bit about navigation, unless these days they just follow the numbers on their navigation system.

I am a navigator by trade, as a ships captain, and cannot possibly see how someone who understands navigation can believe the earth is flat.

The quote from Treep, does bring into question his credentials. And it has been suggested by some that he is just a troll........

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.