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Offline Opeo

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2018, 10:37:48 PM »
This is where it's impossible to win the argument

FE: I don't believe 'x'. Show me photographic proof.
RE: OK, here.
FE: FAKE!

Where do you go with the argument after that? One can always prove oneself "right" if one ignores or dismisses any evidence to the contrary.

It's confirmation bias writ large.

"The Earth is flat, therefore any evidence to the contrary must be fake.

There's no real evidence of a curve, therefore the Earth must be flat."

It's truly the "We know the Bible is true because it is God-breathed, we know the Bible is God-breathed because it says so in 2 Timothy," of our time.
"It's easier to fool people that to convince them that they have been fooled ;^)" — Marcus Aurelius, 180 A.D.

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2018, 11:37:55 PM »
"The Earth is flat, therefore any evidence to the contrary must be fake.

There's no real evidence of a curve, therefore the Earth must be flat."

It's truly the "We know the Bible is true because it is God-breathed, we know the Bible is God-breathed because it says so in 2 Timothy," of our time.
I actually do believe the Bible is true, I just don’t believe it should be read like a science book or that it teaches a flat earth

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/

If evidence (and there is plenty) of a round earth contradicts your understanding of Scripture then rather than shouting “FAKE!” at all of it with now basis, how about re-examining your understanding of Scripture? Scripture may be inspired, your understanding of it is not and should be open to change as you learn more.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Opeo

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2018, 11:45:02 PM »
"The Earth is flat, therefore any evidence to the contrary must be fake.

There's no real evidence of a curve, therefore the Earth must be flat."

It's truly the "We know the Bible is true because it is God-breathed, we know the Bible is God-breathed because it says so in 2 Timothy," of our time.
I actually do believe the Bible is true, I just don’t believe it should be read like a science book or that it teaches a flat earth

https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/

If evidence (and there is plenty) of a round earth contradicts your understanding of Scripture then rather than shouting “FAKE!” at all of it with now basis, how about re-examining your understanding of Scripture? Scripture may be inspired, your understanding of it is not and should be open to change as you learn more.

I do as well, but that's the classic example of begging the question and circular reasoning. Plus, if your sole reason for believing in the Bible is a huge logical fallacy like that, I can't imagine your faith is very strong.
"It's easier to fool people that to convince them that they have been fooled ;^)" — Marcus Aurelius, 180 A.D.

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2018, 11:47:55 PM »
You lost me. What is the logical fallacy?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Opeo

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #84 on: March 09, 2018, 11:55:21 PM »
You lost me. What is the logical fallacy?
These two, which are pretty closely related and I can never remember the difference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

Basically any argument that's set up as
If P then Q
If Q then P
Therefore P and Q
"It's easier to fool people that to convince them that they have been fooled ;^)" — Marcus Aurelius, 180 A.D.

Offline Ratboy

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2018, 03:46:50 AM »


Where are you going with this? Do you mean that flat-earthers don't believe any photographs and videos evidence just "for the sport of it"?

I mean, he is right. People ask for photographs proofs and when they get one they just say that it's fake. How do you want us to prove you anything?

At this point, the only thing we can tell FEs is :
- Go there https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=telescope
- Order a good one
- Travel around the world with it
- Observe the stars at night (at day for the sun :p) and the ISS when it gets near your location (http://iss.astroviewer.net/)
- Make your own conclusion

Because right now, FEs are literally believing... text. Where are FEs' actual observations?
Where I am going is that there must be FEers with enough experience to realize that the earth is round.  They are not believing anything for sport they are arguing for sport. They know the truth, but they want to have fun belonging to a society.  There would be others with less experience who believe the earth is flat simply because they refuse to believe there might be a New Zealand (if there is a New Zealand why is there no original Zealand?).  Just like people who claim there is now a New Mexico.  I have met older people who had never met anyone who believes in evolution.  These people could also easily believe in a flat earth.  Here certain FEers argue minute details for the sake of arguing and then stop when enough evidence is provided.  I was asked to provide a reference when I said that corrections lines were put in when farms could not be simply straight line surveyed in the western US.  I was asked why I believed that all parts of the world get equal day and night.  All those things are simply tactics to argue not to prove anything.

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2018, 09:44:07 AM »
You lost me. What is the logical fallacy?
These two, which are pretty closely related and I can never remember the difference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

Basically any argument that's set up as
If P then Q
If Q then P
Therefore P and Q

Ok. I'm still not clear how you think I have committed that logical fallacy though.
My argument is simply this. If I think that
1) The Bible is inspired and therefore correct and
2) My understanding of scripture is that it teaches the earth is flat (note the emphasis) and
3) Increasing amounts of evidence shows that the earth is not flat

Then there are two possibilities.
1) All the evidence for a round earth is faked or wrong - as more and more evidence mounts up this becomes a less and less logical stance.
2) My understanding of scripture is wrong. Note, again, understanding. Not that scripture itself is wrong, more my understanding of it.

The people in the FE community who use the Bible (use it incorrectly, in my opinion) to back up their beliefs never seem to consider option 2. The believe that God's word says the earth is flat so the earth is flat, and that is the end of the matter. Why not consider that your understanding of scripture is wrong? Do you really think you understand it perfectly and that the most important message in the Bible is the shape of the earth? Even the Catholics, who I generally think believe some pretty weird, non-Biblical stuff, admitted that they got it wrong when they put Galileo under house arrest for suggesting that the earth goes round the sun.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Opeo

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2018, 09:58:34 AM »
You lost me. What is the logical fallacy?
These two, which are pretty closely related and I can never remember the difference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

Basically any argument that's set up as
If P then Q
If Q then P
Therefore P and Q

Ok. I'm still not clear how you think I have committed that logical fallacy though.
My argument is simply this. If I think that
1) The Bible is inspired and therefore correct and
2) My understanding of scripture is that it teaches the earth is flat (note the emphasis) and
3) Increasing amounts of evidence shows that the earth is not flat

Then there are two possibilities.
1) All the evidence for a round earth is faked or wrong - as more and more evidence mounts up this becomes a less and less logical stance.
2) My understanding of scripture is wrong. Note, again, understanding. Not that scripture itself is wrong, more my understanding of it.

The people in the FE community who use the Bible (use it incorrectly, in my opinion) to back up their beliefs never seem to consider option 2. The believe that God's word says the earth is flat so the earth is flat, and that is the end of the matter. Why not consider that your understanding of scripture is wrong? Do you really think you understand it perfectly and that the most important message in the Bible is the shape of the earth? Even the Catholics, who I generally think believe some pretty weird, non-Biblical stuff, admitted that they got it wrong when they put Galileo under house arrest for suggesting that the earth goes round the sun.

Sorry, I think we crossed some wires here. I was largely agreeing with you. The bit that I was saying was an example of begging the question were my examples here in this post:

Quote
"The Earth is flat, therefore any evidence to the contrary must be fake.

There's no real evidence of a curve, therefore the Earth must be flat."

and

Quote
"We know the Bible is true because it is God-breathed, we know the Bible is God-breathed because it says so in 2 Timothy,"

I'm in total agreement with you that scripture isn't meant to be a source of scientific knowledge. My go-to example is Jesus saying "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." If a Biblical literallist saw that they'd think it meant all Governments are still secretly controlled by the Roman Empire and rule under Caesar's name. Instead I think it's pretty clear that Jesus was using the language of His followers to teach a moral lesson and the specifics beyond that aren't really useful. You can imagine it wouldn't have meant as much to His audience if He'd said "please pay your federal income taxes to the IRS in a timely manner." Therefore, similarly a story in which "God then stopped the Earth from spinning around the Sun, but also mitigated the effects of momentum and overheating this would cause," in Joshua 10 would have just been confusing the the 12th century BC Israelites that were first reading it.
"It's easier to fool people that to convince them that they have been fooled ;^)" — Marcus Aurelius, 180 A.D.

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2018, 10:13:04 AM »
Right. Yes. Wires crossed. Sorry!  :D
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #89 on: March 22, 2018, 11:55:36 AM »
satellites ... They travel west to east in giant wave formation. None go over the poles.
I found actually this website shows exactly that:



However it does mystify me somewhat as to how does it turn the corner? The forces must be enormous if I try to imagine (dangerous thing). I always recommend to stick to what can be observed. However I have never observed an object travel in such waves. I understand it can have great speed, but what makes this peculiar wave shape?

The site is what we discuss in another subject: https://www.thehumanitystar.com/. Sorry it's not about "iss", but I thought it similar thing
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 11:57:39 AM by Treep Ravisarras »
As the saying goes "The internet belongs to the lunatics in their walled gardens" - Xiang Yu

I see a Flat Earth. And I can't imagine anything else.

I got work to do. 0.00018% of Christians believe in a Flat Earth. Pls help

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #90 on: March 22, 2018, 12:37:08 PM »
Because right now, FEs are literally believing... text. Where are FEs' actual observations?
Yes, it seems just like in Christianity there are so many nominal flat earthers. (I don't even capitalise their name). One of our principles is that an explanation must be seen or experienced for it to be real. But then they accuse others of rationalization etcetera when they themselves start talking about things they have never even seen either! I can't really accept them as true FE-ers, and I sometimes wonder where the real Flat Earthers are. Those that observe and experience, see the Flat Earth and believe it, but also accept the possibility that they might be mistaken. When someone else offers them to show an experience or a reality, to politely refuse should be allowed to be called 'choosing to be ignorant'.

You would almost say "will the real FE-ers now stand up". And there won't be many, very unfortunate  :'( as I can observe it to be true.

they refuse to believe there might be a New Zealand (if there is a New Zealand why is there no original Zealand?).
A man I once met claimed he was from the original. I think a province he said. I don't know as I've never been shown.



As the saying goes "The internet belongs to the lunatics in their walled gardens" - Xiang Yu

I see a Flat Earth. And I can't imagine anything else.

I got work to do. 0.00018% of Christians believe in a Flat Earth. Pls help

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #91 on: March 22, 2018, 12:52:48 PM »
satellites ... They travel west to east in giant wave formation. None go over the poles.
I found actually this website shows exactly that:



However it does mystify me somewhat as to how does it turn the corner? The forces must be enormous if I try to imagine (dangerous thing). I always recommend to stick to what can be observed. However I have never observed an object travel in such waves. I understand it can have great speed, but what makes this peculiar wave shape?

The site is what we discuss in another subject: https://www.thehumanitystar.com/. Sorry it's not about "iss", but I thought it similar thing
The wave shape on that map is the result of a polar orbit. It's not moving in such waves if you were to plot its course upon a globe map. I'm not sure what many of you FEer find hard to grasp about how a projection works. This is an oddly frequent question.

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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #92 on: March 22, 2018, 01:08:14 PM »
mercator map is a cylindrical projection of a sphere

circles around a globe map to waves on a cylinder



and now you know

Offline jimbob

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #93 on: March 22, 2018, 04:39:30 PM »
satellites ... They travel west to east in giant wave formation. None go over the poles.
I found actually this website shows exactly that:



However it does mystify me somewhat as to how does it turn the corner? The forces must be enormous if I try to imagine (dangerous thing). I always recommend to stick to what can be observed. However I have never observed an object travel in such waves. I understand it can have great speed, but what makes this peculiar wave shape?

The site is what we discuss in another subject: https://www.thehumanitystar.com/. Sorry it's not about "iss", but I thought it similar thing
The wave shape on that map is the result of a polar orbit. It's not moving in such waves if you were to plot its course upon a globe map. I'm not sure what many of you FEer find hard to grasp about how a projection works. This is an oddly frequent question.
If they are travelling in waves, Then they would require a force to change direction and since direction is always changing a constant force would be necessary. Any thrusters would be visible with the ISS. My next door neighbour is a friend of Tim Peake, they went to school together, served in the military together and are still good friends. If Tim had been paid off or threatened, he would know. I saw a photo he took, the Earth was round.

Offline jimbob

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #94 on: March 22, 2018, 05:01:37 PM »
actually i think. This goes to all of you very special people. whats your wish kid? Howd it go when you went to macys to ask to give em your wish. You make a wish kid. If i were you. My wish would be to leap off the edge of the flat earth and end your pathetic life.

Can I make a wish?...really? then I wish I could understand what you just said.

ps theearthisntreal are you one of my gang.....who believes the earth isnt real?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 05:06:07 PM by jimbob »

Offline stanlee

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2018, 11:41:18 AM »
how do you know that 'telescope' wasn't just a tube with pictures inside it?

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Offline Spycrab

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2018, 04:33:36 PM »
they refuse to believe there might be a New Zealand (if there is a New Zealand why is there no original Zealand?).
A man I once met claimed he was from the original. I think a province he said. I don't know as I've never been shown.

Actually Treep, the old Zealand is a province in Norway. The fella you were talking to was probably just Norwegian.
Besides, your skepticism is a little intense. I think one can safely assume other people exist, or maybe I'm just a NASA created AI to spread the conspiracy. All this flesh would seem to suggest otherwise, but you can't trust my opinion apparently. ;)
The espionage crustacean strikes again.
Spycrab, you're the best memeber on the fora. Thank you for being born.