Offline retlaw

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #60 on: March 07, 2018, 06:38:36 PM »
Celestial navigation
A variation on terrestrial celestial navigation was used to help orient the Apollo spacecraft en route to and from the Moon. To this day, space missions, such as the Mars Exploration Rover use star trackers to determine the attitude of the spacecraft. If one believes in the Mars space race.

Intercontinental ballistic missiles use celestial navigation to check and correct their course.

While celestial navigation is becoming increasingly redundant with the advent of inexpensive and highly accurate satellite navigation receivers its still used for compass calibration.

Star Trackers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_tracker
A star tracker is an optical device that measures the positions of stars using photocells or a camera.[1] As the positions of many stars have been measured by astronomers to a high degree of accuracy, a star tracker on a satellite or spacecraft may be used to determine the orientation (or attitude) of the spacecraft with respect to the stars.

If planet's obit the sun then there must be a photo of it like the planets and stars orbiting Polaris.
The sun is on the horizon but I don't see any thing orbiting it.


Offline Frocious

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2018, 06:50:43 PM »
Celestial navigation
A variation on terrestrial celestial navigation was used to help orient the Apollo spacecraft en route to and from the Moon. To this day, space missions, such as the Mars Exploration Rover use star trackers to determine the attitude of the spacecraft. If one believes in the Mars space race.

Intercontinental ballistic missiles use celestial navigation to check and correct their course.

While celestial navigation is becoming increasingly redundant with the advent of inexpensive and highly accurate satellite navigation receivers its still used for compass calibration.

Star Trackers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_tracker
A star tracker is an optical device that measures the positions of stars using photocells or a camera.[1] As the positions of many stars have been measured by astronomers to a high degree of accuracy, a star tracker on a satellite or spacecraft may be used to determine the orientation (or attitude) of the spacecraft with respect to the stars.

If planet's obit the sun then there must be a photo of it like the planets and stars orbiting Polaris.
The sun is on the horizon but I don't see any thing orbiting it.



With your naked eye and no knowledge of astronomy it is quite difficult to see anything orbiting the sun. Luckily we have tools like telescopes and certain people are quite adept when it comes to astronomy.

They can certainly show you planets orbit the sun if you ask them to.

Offline retlaw

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2018, 06:53:50 PM »
Well I am asking.

Offline Frocious

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2018, 07:03:27 PM »
Well I am asking.

If you want first-hand knowledge you are going to have to go to an observatory or look up a local astronomy club or something like that. This isn't the place, especially if you aren't inclined to believe someone else's written word.

If you like, you can begin your research here: https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/review/dr-marc-solar-system/planet-orbits.html

If you want to discard the information because big bad NASA is involved, that's fine. Provide some peer reviewed evidence that the planets do not orbit the sun instead.

Edit: and to clarify, you are correct that the objects in the photo provided are not orbiting the sun. Those are mostly going to be other stars orbiting the super-massive black hole at the center of our galaxy, or other galaxies comprised of billions of stars so far away that they appear as a single point of light to the naked eye. They absolutely are not orbiting Polaris, and they only appear to be because of our perspective.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 07:12:33 PM by Frocious »

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Offline Opeo

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #64 on: March 08, 2018, 01:27:58 AM »
Well I am asking.

There's are two very easy to see objects that clearly orbit the sun: Mercury and Venus. Because both orbit around the sun at a much closer distance than the Earth, they are always near the Sun in the sky. Specifically, Mercury is always within 28° of the Sun along the ecliptic and Venus (the 4th brightest thing in the sky behind the Sun, Moon, and ISS) is always within 46°. That's why you can only see these two shortly after sunset or shortly before sunrise. If you want to see them for yourself, I recommend downloading a free star-gazing app on your smartphone which makes finding them a breeze.

If they didn't orbit the Sun and merely orbited the Earth or Polaris or whatever, there'd be no reason for this to be the case. In fact, funnily enough, this lead to some serious confusion back in the good old days before we figured out the shape of the solar system since geocentric orbits couldn't explain Venus's locations. Because of this, the Greeks thought Venus was two planets: Phosphorus, the Morning Star and Hesperus, the Evening Star.

This is just another in a long line of examples where heliocentricism explains our observations perfectly while FE comes up short.
"It's easier to fool people that to convince them that they have been fooled ;^)" — Marcus Aurelius, 180 A.D.

Offline retlaw

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #65 on: March 08, 2018, 05:17:33 PM »

So no photo of your claim them?


Offline Frocious

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #66 on: March 08, 2018, 05:57:13 PM »

So no photo of your claim them?

In order for a photo to explain something you need to understand what it shows. We need to make sure that you understand what is in that long-exposure photo of Polaris -- do you think all of those objects are actually orbiting Polaris?

Offline retlaw

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #67 on: March 08, 2018, 06:37:24 PM »

In order for a photo to explain something you need to understand what it shows. We need to make sure that you understand what is in that long-exposure photo of Polaris -- do you think all of those objects are actually orbiting Polaris?

What I see is Polaris is not orbiting any of the millions of them.
I would like to see a photo of the sun doing the same thing Polaris is doing.
If everything obits the sun then a simple photo should show it so just please show me the photo.

wRadion

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #68 on: March 08, 2018, 07:20:04 PM »
 ???
You can't show movement using a static photo. What do you expect?

Offline jimbob

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #69 on: March 08, 2018, 07:42:39 PM »


What theory allows an object to orbit a flat plane?

I guess the important thing is, with no thrusters or driving force of any kind, what is accelerating this space station upwards at the same rate as we are (the acceleration that gives us our illusion of gravity....ie 1g). A force is necessary and it isnt connected to the ground.

Offline Frocious

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2018, 08:24:52 PM »

In order for a photo to explain something you need to understand what it shows. We need to make sure that you understand what is in that long-exposure photo of Polaris -- do you think all of those objects are actually orbiting Polaris?

What I see is Polaris is not orbiting any of the millions of them.
I would like to see a photo of the sun doing the same thing Polaris is doing.
If everything obits the sun then a simple photo should show it so just please show me the photo.

First of all, "everything" does not orbit the sun. An infinitesimally small portion of the universe orbits the sun, that being our solar system. Again, I want to make it clear to you that absolutely none of the objects that appear to be "orbiting" around Polaris in that photo are actually orbiting around Polaris. They are either other stars in our galaxy orbiting the supermassive black hole at its center, or entire galaxies that are so far away that they appear as a single point of light to the naked eye.

Second, for us to be able to provide the picture you are asking for we would need to be a huge distance away from the Sun -- we're talking lightyears. For reference, Polaris itself is 433 lightyears away from Earth.

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Offline Opeo

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2018, 08:30:47 PM »

In order for a photo to explain something you need to understand what it shows. We need to make sure that you understand what is in that long-exposure photo of Polaris -- do you think all of those objects are actually orbiting Polaris?

What I see is Polaris is not orbiting any of the millions of them.
I would like to see a photo of the sun doing the same thing Polaris is doing.
If everything obits the sun then a simple photo should show it so just please show me the photo.

If everything orbits Polaris, then why do you see this looking South from NSW, Australia?


The problem with the picture that you're asking for is that you'd need to have a camera dozens of AU "above" the Solar System to see it. Impossible right? Wrong. You're lucky, thankfully NASA is one step ahead of us here. Voyager 1 was launched in 1977, and by 1990 it was about 40 AU away at a pretty steep angle, shown here:

 

At this point, it turned its cameras and took a "family portrait" of the Solar System. This had to be done in multiple shots, because it was so far away that basically a telescope needed to be used to see each small planet, but here's the resulting collage:

It shows all of the planets in the exact locations the heliocentric model predicts:



Ok, we've answered all your questions and provided photo evidence, now answer us this. How do you explain that all the stars rotate around Sigma Octanis in the South. Surely the simplest explanation is that the stars are relatively static, and we're the one who's spinning? There's no other way to geometrically explain that.
"It's easier to fool people that to convince them that they have been fooled ;^)" — Marcus Aurelius, 180 A.D.

Offline retlaw

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2018, 09:52:40 PM »
Where there is a head there is a tail.
In other words the southern photo is the ass.
zin zang

Your NASA fake space photos proves nothing when NASA is the leader in RE conspiracy.
Any one on earth with a time lapse camera can take a photo showing every star going around Polaris yet you need a NASA photo which no one else
can duplicate to prove everyone on earths photo is wrong?

NASA them self claims they use Polaris as their guide. They don't use the sun.
Why would they not use the sun is it was the center?

Put a filter on your camera and do a time lapse of the sun and see what obits it.
 

Offline Frocious

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2018, 11:54:22 PM »
Where there is a head there is a tail.
In other words the southern photo is the ass.
zin zang

Your NASA fake space photos proves nothing when NASA is the leader in RE conspiracy.
Any one on earth with a time lapse camera can take a photo showing every star going around Polaris yet you need a NASA photo which no one else
can duplicate to prove everyone on earths photo is wrong?

NASA them self claims they use Polaris as their guide. They don't use the sun.
Why would they not use the sun is it was the center?

Put a filter on your camera and do a time lapse of the sun and see what obits it.
 

Look man. You need to figure out what an orbit actually is before you continue this argument. Again, nothing in your photo orbits Polaris.

Start here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit

The exact evidence you asked for has been provided. You can accept it, or you can stick your head in the sand.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 12:00:57 AM by Frocious »

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #74 on: March 09, 2018, 02:11:15 AM »
Where there is a head there is a tail.
In other words the southern photo is the ass.
zin zang

Try this - sit on one of those office chairs that spins in your house, and spin. Look around you, and you'll see that there is one spot directly overhead that isn't moving. Does that mean your house is orbiting that one spot?
If you then tilt your chair to a different angle and spin it, does that mean your house is now orbiting the new stationary point?
Quote


Your NASA fake space photos proves nothing when NASA is the leader in RE conspiracy.
Any one on earth with a time lapse camera can take a photo showing every star going around Polaris yet you need a NASA photo which no one else
can duplicate to prove everyone on earths photo is wrong?

No, you're wrong. Everybody on earth can take a picture that shows every star INCLUDING POLARIS, spining around the celestial pole.
https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/photo/long-exposure-polaris-star-trails-high-res-stock-photography/121831180

Seriously - look at that link and see that Polaris is also "orbiting".
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NASA them self claims they use Polaris as their guide. They don't use the sun.
Why would they not use the sun is it was the center?

What are you talking about? When did Nasa say this?
If you're talking about celestial navigation, it's because the sun is too close to you to be used as a guide for more than a day or so - as you orbit the sun, its apparent position changes. The stars are far enough away that no matter how you move, the stars don't move much. They do move a TINY BIT, but not enough to make them less useful for navigation.
Quote

Put a filter on your camera and do a time lapse of the sun and see what obits it.
 
You can see mercury and venus orbiting the sun. Here's an animation of what you'd observe of Mercury's orbit. The ellipse has been left in for you to see it.
https://astronomynow.com/2016/04/13/catch-a-glimpse-of-planet-mercury-at-its-best-in-the-evening-twilight/

Venus is the same thing.

Now, imagine for a moment that Earth also orbits the sun - what would that look like? Hint: Exactly what we see year in and year out.
Now - imagine more distant planets - what would their path across the sky look like? They basically go in a circle around us, with a pause to go backwards a little each year as Earth goes speeding by them, since their orbit is much slower than Earth's.

Offline Ratboy

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2018, 02:29:51 AM »
Where there is a head there is a tail.
In other words the southern photo is the ass.
zin zang

Your NASA fake space photos proves nothing when NASA is the leader in RE conspiracy.
Any one on earth with a time lapse camera can take a photo showing every star going around Polaris yet you need a NASA photo which no one else
can duplicate to prove everyone on earths photo is wrong?

NASA them self claims they use Polaris as their guide. They don't use the sun.
Why would they not use the sun is it was the center?

Put a filter on your camera and do a time lapse of the sun and see what obits it.
 

As I often mention here, to be a FE'er you have to ignore anyone living near the equator or south of it.  They do not matter.  If you like to think the sky revolves around the north pole, that is great except you are slapping the faces of people who live somewhere different than you.

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Offline Opeo

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2018, 04:41:43 AM »
Where there is a head there is a tail.
In other words the southern photo is the ass.
zin zang

Your NASA fake space photos proves nothing when NASA is the leader in RE conspiracy.
Any one on earth with a time lapse camera can take a photo showing every star going around Polaris yet you need a NASA photo which no one else
can duplicate to prove everyone on earths photo is wrong?

NASA them self claims they use Polaris as their guide. They don't use the sun.
Why would they not use the sun is it was the center?

Put a filter on your camera and do a time lapse of the sun and see what obits it.
 

You claim NASA is lying, yet you've provided zero proof of such whatsoever. Earlier in this thread you tried to claim Google maps didn't make sense because they couldn't represent a 3D object on a 2D plane, and then tried to use photos taken from the ISS that didn't *feel* right to you, but I showed that all of those were consistent with the standard round Earth theory with basic geometry.

So where is it? If NASA is lying, where's the evidence? You can't just make a claim and not support it.

By the way, you should reflect on how all of your pro-FE arguments are either heavily flawed when examined with math, are based on your intuition instead of real science, or rely on massive conspiracies when you can't provide any counter arguments to the heliocentric model. Could there be a reason all the support for one is so heavily flawed while the arguments for the other are air tight?
"It's easier to fool people that to convince them that they have been fooled ;^)" — Marcus Aurelius, 180 A.D.

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2018, 11:39:54 AM »
This is where it's impossible to win the argument

FE: I don't believe 'x'. Show me photographic proof.
RE: OK, here.
FE: FAKE!

Where do you go with the argument after that? One can always prove oneself "right" if one ignores or dismisses any evidence to the contrary.

It's confirmation bias writ large.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Offline Ratboy

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Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2018, 01:50:35 PM »
This is where it's impossible to win the argument

FE: I don't believe 'x'. Show me photographic proof.
RE: OK, here.
FE: FAKE!

Where do you go with the argument after that? One can always prove oneself "right" if one ignores or dismisses any evidence to the contrary.

It's confirmation bias writ large.

Or two more things.  If you have an ex-spouse, you know that the other person probably knows you are right but winning the fight is more important to get those "marriage points" so they pout and end conversation on that matter and then fight a new one hoping to gain face.
Or the other person knows full well that they are full of bull plop and they like to belong to a unique club.  They come up with stuff to argue about as a game.  Well actually the ex-spouse might say something they know will trigger a great reaction in the other just for the sport of it all.

wRadion

Re: Orbiting International Space Station visible from Telescope
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2018, 03:56:53 PM »
Or two more things.  If you have an ex-spouse, you know that the other person probably knows you are right but winning the fight is more important to get those "marriage points" so they pout and end conversation on that matter and then fight a new one hoping to gain face.
Or the other person knows full well that they are full of bull plop and they like to belong to a unique club.  They come up with stuff to argue about as a game.  Well actually the ex-spouse might say something they know will trigger a great reaction in the other just for the sport of it all.

Where are you going with this? Do you mean that flat-earthers don't believe any photographs and videos evidence just "for the sport of it"?

I mean, he is right. People ask for photographs proofs and when they get one they just say that it's fake. How do you want us to prove you anything?

At this point, the only thing we can tell FEs is :
- Go there https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=telescope
- Order a good one
- Travel around the world with it
- Observe the stars at night (at day for the sun :p) and the ISS when it gets near your location (http://iss.astroviewer.net/)
- Make your own conclusion

Because right now, FEs are literally believing... text. Where are FEs' actual observations?