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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2018, 09:17:18 AM »
Starting around the 5:30 minute mark looking at the laser-boat example Jeran clearly demonstrates many inconsistencies in the video and the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory. The experimenter is not seen to do any measuring when they receive of the beam at the boat. The beam is pointing upwards into the sky from the boat rather than at it, among other issues.

The "results" stated in the video of the boat-laser example exactly matches what the results would be if one used an earth curvature calculator to calculate the drop if the height of the observer (or laser in this experiment) was zero. Someone in production obviously just found the results they wanted while neglecting to account for the height of the laser, which would have given a significantly different result.

This takes the experiment from the level of inconsistent to the level of fraudulent.

While Stephen Hawking is disrespected several times in the video, seeing that this is a fraud, I feel that the disrespect is probably deserving.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2018, 09:35:16 AM »
In the next next telescope-helicopter experiment, starting around the 13 minute mark, Jeran again shows that the production team used a round earth curve calculator to calculate the distance to get what they wanted. The results are exactly what an earth curve calculator would show if the height of the observer were zero.

It is quite odd that the results for these experiments are identical to an earth curvature calculator if the height of the observer were set to zero, despite the observer height being above zero. But who is to doubt the famous Stephen Hawking?

« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 09:51:21 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2018, 09:43:51 AM »
Where did the helicopter go, given that the lake was clearly calm with no significant waves?

And does the fact that he starts the video by claiming that Hawking died years ago not ring any alarm bells about the bloke's sanity?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 10:18:33 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2018, 04:48:58 PM »
Where did the helicopter go, given that the lake was clearly calm with no significant waves?

And does the fact that he starts the video by claiming that Hawking died years ago not ring any alarm bells about the bloke's sanity?

The helicopter may have disappeared via refraction or the sinking ship effect as described in Earth Not a Globe.

Jeran employs a lot of sarcsam in his videos. Later in the video he clearly refers to Stephen Hawking as if he were still living, which he was at the time.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2018, 05:03:14 PM »
...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2018, 05:09:03 PM »
...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?

The results of this experiment were fraudulent. If we can't trust the results, we can't trust anything else about this experiment.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2018, 05:13:34 PM »
Starting around the 5:30 minute mark looking at the laser-boat example Jeran clearly demonstrates many inconsistencies in the video and the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory. The experimenter is not seen to do any measuring when they receive of the beam at the boat. The beam is pointing upwards into the sky from the boat rather than at it, among other issues.

The "results" stated in the video of the boat-laser example exactly matches what the results would be if one used an earth curvature calculator to calculate the drop if the height of the observer (or laser in this experiment) was zero. Someone in production obviously just found the results they wanted while neglecting to account for the height of the laser, which would have given a significantly different result.

Your conclusion is incorrect.  Since they are plotting out a datum line, the amount of drop from the datum would be identical to an observer at height zero.

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This takes the experiment from the level of inconsistent to the level of fraudulent.

lol

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While Stephen Hawking is disrespected several times in the video, seeing that this is a fraud, I feel that the disrespect is probably deserving.

Seeing as it isn't a fraud but simply your misunderstanding (and Jeran's as usual!), would it be ok if I called you an idiot?  Just trying to figure what your standard of civil discourse is here.

...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?

No his claim is that the source of the measured curvature could maybe possibly be attributed to other sources.  Seeing as he has done nothing to substantiate this claim, there is no reason to consider it.
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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2018, 05:15:26 PM »
...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?

The results of this experiment were fraudulent. If we can't trust the results, we can't trust anything else about this experiment.

So you don't think they even measured a drop?  Where is your evidence for that?  I thought you just ignorantly disputed the conclusion.
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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2018, 05:16:09 PM »
If Tom can find an example of bad scientific writing on a reality television show, in a segment that demonstrates the curvature of the Earth regardless of what numbers the actors are saying, how does that prove anything? The clip of the helicopter disappearing over the horizon is evidence that Rowbotham's sinking ship effect doesn't exist. Add it to the pile from the OP.

but oh man, the writers forgot or didn't know to use the right numbers. it's not fraudulent, at worst it's just incorrect math. and it isn't even that. the actual results we can work with are the videos. those are not fraudulent.

and y'all definitely don't want to introduce 'if the results are fraudulent, none of it can be trusted' when you refer to Rowbotham as much as you do

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2018, 05:33:17 PM »
Starting around the 5:30 minute mark looking at the laser-boat example Jeran clearly demonstrates many inconsistencies in the video and the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory. The experimenter is not seen to do any measuring when they receive of the beam at the boat. The beam is pointing upwards into the sky from the boat rather than at it, among other issues.

The "results" stated in the video of the boat-laser example exactly matches what the results would be if one used an earth curvature calculator to calculate the drop if the height of the observer (or laser in this experiment) was zero. Someone in production obviously just found the results they wanted while neglecting to account for the height of the laser, which would have given a significantly different result.

This takes the experiment from the level of inconsistent to the level of fraudulent.

While Stephen Hawking is disrespected several times in the video, seeing that this is a fraud, I feel that the disrespect is probably deserving.

Right. I've gone through this in more detail.

At 7:40 Jeran claims there is 10 inches of change at the first location when there should be almost none, but he is completely estimating that. There is no calibration on the video so there is no basis for that claim of 10 inches. Later in the video he chastises the makers for claiming the difference is 6 feet without proper measurement, he does the exact same thing here.

8:50 he shows this still and says you can see the laser coming from the shore and asks why she isn't behind a hill of water.



The answer, quite simply, is it depends how high the film was taken from and in that still you can't determine that.
BUT, if you do this earth curve calculator and put in a distance of 3 miles and an eye height of 3 feet then you'll see the target hidden height is 0.5 feet.

https://dizzib.github.io/earth/curve-calc/?d0=3&h0=3&unit=imperial

I think we can safely assume that the camera is more than 3 feet off the ground, given that they're on a boat, so unless the laser is lower than that 6 inches to the ground - which it clearly isn't - you'd be able to see it from 3 miles.

He then says the still shows the laser is "shooting off into space". It's amazing how selectively you guys use perspective.
You say over and over that sunset is caused by merging perspective lines and use the example that railroad tracks look closer the further they are, but here the guy wilfully misunderstands perspective to imply the laser is not horizontal. At best it's stupid, at worst it's downright dishonest.

The guy on the original video proclaims the difference to be 6 feet admittedly with little accuracy, Jeran picks up on that but the point here surely is on a flat earth the difference would be 0. The only way to account for the difference is if the laser is not horizontal which you have no basis for other than just shouting "PANTS ON FIRE!" or pretending on this occasion that you don't understand perspective.

He then produces this ridiculous still which he has drawn lines on:



Where does he get that angle from? If that angle was accurate then the laser would be about 20 feet away, not 3 miles. He then uses that as the basis for saying that the lake must tilt ridiculously if that was right. It's a complete straw man, the angle of the laser cannot be as shown there. This is the actual still



You can't see the line of the laser but given that it's coming from 3 miles away it's impossible that the angle is as he shows in his annotated still.

He then claims they made the result what they expected it to be, again the difference was not accurately measured but the important point is there WAS a difference and yes, it was about 6 feet. Now comes the interesting part. He claims that the difference should have only been 1 foot because they neglected to take into account the height of the laser. He is wrong because the thing they are measuring is the DIFFERENCE in height at the two distances. Look at this diagram showing two lasers both horizontal to the ground but at different heights.



The difference in heights of the green laser is: H2 - H0
The difference in heights of the red laser is: H3 - H1.

But because the lasers are parall H1-H0 = H3-H2
(note that because of the angles shown in the diagram there would be a very slight difference but these angles are grossly exaggerated, in real life the difference would be negligible over 3 miles on a globe the size of the earth).

So, if:
H1-H0 = H3-H2

We can add H0 to both sides to get:

H1 = H3 + H0 - H2

So we can substute H1 for H3 + H0 - H2

H3 - H1
= H3 - (H3 + H0 - H2)
= H2 - H0 (+H2 because we have two minuses, which cancel out)

QED. The laser height cancels itself, his claim that they failed to account for the height of the laser is spurious.

So your only get out now is to claim they're lying which you have no basis for other than the experiment proves you wrong.

Oh, and he clearly does thing Hawking died years ago, he spends some part of the video talking about ALS and other celebrities who got it and how long they lived with the disease, why bother doing that if he was kidding?
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2018, 05:40:36 PM »
Where did the helicopter go, given that the lake was clearly calm with no significant waves?

And does the fact that he starts the video by claiming that Hawking died years ago not ring any alarm bells about the bloke's sanity?

The helicopter may have disappeared via refraction or the sinking ship effect as described in Earth Not a Globe.

How could the sinking ship effect, even if it weren't hogwash, apply to an object only moving in its Y-axis?  The sinking ship effect applies to objects receding from its observer.
 Refraction does not make objects appear lower, but higher.  So both of those explanations are terrible.

You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2018, 07:09:55 AM »
These last few posts show that more than anything else flat earthers aren't "free thinkers" or "empiricists".
Flat earth is a religion. A faith. It's dogma.

The video clearly shows the earth is a globe so it must be fake. Jerad's analysis is pathetic, frankly.

He claims that at 500 feet the difference is 10 inches but his only basis for that is a rough estimate from a still of the video. If the difference were 10 inches over 500 feet then over 3 miles (15840 feet) that would mean the laser being over 26 feet above the boat...

He asks why the laser isn't "behind a hill of water" but his own round earth curve calculator shows that at 3 miles you would expect to see it so long as the laser and the viewer are more than a couple of feet off the earth, which they are.

He says the laser is "shooting off into space" but deliberately ignores perspective, if the laser was really going up at the angle he shows then it would be way above the boat at 3 miles.

He is sarcastic about the lack of an accurate measurement of 6 feet but misses the point that on a flat earth there would be no difference at all.

I've now realised he used the same ridiculous angle from before to claim the lake must be tilting. This is an even more dishonest use - or misuse - of perspective. He uses the same apparent laser angle from before and uses it on a still taken from a completely different angle. If that angle was right the laser would be about 20 feet away.

Finally he claims that the 6 foot doesn't take into account the height of the laser. As I have shown, when measuring the DIFFERENCE you don't need to, the laser height cancels out.

So there's nowhere else to go for flat earthers now. All the objections are spurious. Their only tactic now is to shout "FAKE!" with no basis and run away.
Easy to "prove" yourself right if you discount all the evidence showing you to be wrong...
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2018, 08:53:26 AM »
The "waves" argument doesn't cut it, as it is observed that more of the buildings get blocked off the farther you get from them.

Let's say we sampled wave height from a Gaussian distribution (or any other probability distribution for that matter). Obviously, the tallest wave is the one that does the blocking. Increasing the distance merely increases the number of samples. I'm far too lazy to do the PDF calculation of a bunch of IID random variables (hint: use the CDF of the underlying distribution to get the CDF for the distribution of the maximum and differentiate), but one can intuitively see that beyond a certain point, increasing the distance has a negligible effect on the height of the tallest wave, which is contrary to what we see in practice (the building disappears).

It's sort of like expecting that if you get 1000000000000000000 human beings together you could find one 5m tall.

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2018, 01:36:15 AM »
...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?

The results of this experiment were fraudulent. If we can't trust the results, we can't trust anything else about this experiment.

Yea, nice try Tom :) Especially now that AllAround took the time to analyze Jeran's idiotic video, we can see that the only fraud here is coming from the FE side (as usual).

And yes, we have caught you red-handed admitting that you saw curvature! I mean, you said it right there. It's on the internets forever now. How about all the other videos I posted previously? Are you going to start denying that you saw curvature there?

Meanwhile, in the real world:



Where's the bottom of that ship, Tom?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2018, 06:52:28 AM »


The difference in heights of the green laser is: H2 - H0
The difference in heights of the red laser is: H3 - H1.

But because the lasers are parall H1-H0 = H3-H2
(note that because of the angles shown in the diagram there would be a very slight difference but these angles are grossly exaggerated, in real life the difference would be negligible over 3 miles on a globe the size of the earth).

So, if:
H1-H0 = H3-H2

We can add H0 to both sides to get:

H1 = H3 + H0 - H2

So we can substute H1 for H3 + H0 - H2

H3 - H1
= H3 - (H3 + H0 - H2)
= H2 - H0 (+H2 because we have two minuses, which cancel out)

QED. The laser height cancels itself, his claim that they failed to account for the height of the laser is spurious.

So your only get out now is to claim they're lying which you have no basis for other than the experiment proves you wrong.

Oh, and he clearly does thing Hawking died years ago, he spends some part of the video talking about ALS and other celebrities who got it and how long they lived with the disease, why bother doing that if he was kidding?

There is only one laser in the experiment at one height. There are not two lasers. The test is not tried twice with the laser at two positions. The laser is in one position. This is a standard curvature viewing experiment and the height of the observer needs to be accounted for.

They say that the laser (at your higher height) reaches the boat where it would be if the height of the laser was at zero altitude. Look it up. They are not comparing anything. They flatly say that the higher laser reaches the boat where it should not reach.

The second experiment doesn't even use lasers. It's a telescope looking at a helicopter. There is only one height there too, and the height needs to be accounted there as well. It is a standard experiment that looks over a body of water. The height of the observer matters.

The experiments are looking to see how much the target drops. Your interpretation is spurious. They do not describe what you describe anywhere in the video. They view from your red line and say that it reached a point where it should be if it originated from zero altitude. This is wrong in RET, and shows fraud.

They are not comparing the laser at 3 feet compared to the laser at 0 feet. They do not use the word "difference" anywhere. The difference isn't even 6 feet according to RET curvature, anyway.

The result of both experiments is exactly what the result would be if the height of the observer were 0 in an earth curvature experiment. Jeran explains this. Your explanation of "two heights" is nonsense. The laser at the first height, the high hight, should not have be seen where they say it was seen. It is seen as if the height were zero. The observer is looking over a bulge of water, at one height, and the height of that observer matters.

The results show that the experiment is a fraud.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 08:50:29 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2018, 07:06:36 AM »
These last few posts show that more than anything else flat earthers aren't "free thinkers" or "empiricists".
Flat earth is a religion. A faith. It's dogma.

No. That you expect us to accept video unquestionably is dogma. The fact that we are questioning this is the opposite of dogma

Quote
Finally he claims that the 6 foot doesn't take into account the height of the laser. As I have shown, when measuring the DIFFERENCE you don't need to, the laser height cancels out.

That is not what they are claiming in the video. They claim to be measuring the drop of the boat. Did you even watch it? Why are you making things up?

The "difference" for those altitudes doesn't match RET curvature values either. THE HIGH HEIGHT RESULT IS WHAT THE LOW (ZERO) HEIGHT SHOULD BE. Look at an earth curve calculator to verify what Jeran is saying.

They are measuring the drop. It is a simple experiment. The height needs to be accounted for. The fact that they give an exact number for how much the boat drops, that is identical to a Round Earth curvature calculator if the height were set to zero, shows that the results of this experiment were fraudulent.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 07:39:40 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2018, 07:45:45 AM »
Yea, nice try Tom :) Especially now that AllAround took the time to analyze Jeran's idiotic video, we can see that the only fraud here is coming from the FE side (as usual).

AllAround doesn't even understand what is happening. His assessments, accusations, and conclusions on this forum are generally amateur and a big waste of my time.

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2018, 08:55:38 AM »
AllAround doesn't even understand what is happening. His assessments, accusations, and conclusions on this forum are generally amateur and a big waste of my time.

This from the man who thinks that if I look at a row of lamps and I raise my hand above the level of the furthest lamp then that lamp "sees" my hand above it (even though the lamp is physically taller) and so the shadow is magically cast upwards.  :D.
I'll let others decide who is the one talking sense here. Anyway...

No. That you expect us to accept video unquestionably is dogma. The fact that we are questioning this is the opposite of dogma

That's a straw man. I don't expect you to do that. But I have shown that all Jeran's objections are without merit. All of them.
So your only recourse now is to shout "FAKE!" and run away, claiming victory, as you always do.
Although I see you're still floundering around trying to misunderstand the experiment until you have some basis for claiming fraud

There is only one laser but you have completely misunderstood what I have shown. What I have shown is that the DIFFERENCE in the height of the laser between the first measurement and the second measurement would be the same regardless of laser height. And that IS what they are measuring.

The laser is clearly much more than 6 feet above the water level at 3 miles away. When the guy measures it the second time he has to stand on the side of the boat and reach up to mark it. Look again at the still



The audio from the video is:

Man: "It's like 6 feet"
Woman: "Yeah, it seems a lot HIGHER"
Then Hawking says that "At three miles the laser seems to have RISEN by 6 feet"

Note my emphasis. It IS the difference they are measuring - otherwise why take the first measurement at all? - and that difference does not depend on the laser height.
According to round earth calculations 6 feet of the boat should be occluded at ground level, so the laser should be 6 feet higher. It is.

Quote
They say that the laser higher height reaches the boat where it would be if the height of the laser was at zero altitude.

Can you point me to the part of the video where they say that?   :)

How are the horizon dip experiments coming along by the way?  ;D
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2018, 09:16:08 AM »
The audio from the video is:

Man: "It's like 6 feet"
Woman: "Yeah, it seems a lot HIGHER"
Then Hawking says that "At three miles the laser seems to have RISEN by 6 feet"

Note my emphasis. It IS the difference they are measuring - otherwise why take the first measurement at all? - and that difference does not depend on the laser height.

According to round earth calculations 6 feet of the boat should be occluded at ground level, so the laser should be 6 feet higher. It is.

Look guy, let me spell it out for you.

The laser was at 2 feet in altitude. The distance to the boat was 3 miles.

Open this earth curve calculator.

At 2 feet and 3 miles, 1.07 feet are hidden. Not 6 feet.

If we put in 0 feet and 3 miles, 6 feet are hidden, which is the vertical distance they say the laser rises on the boat.

The fact that they mark a position on the boat that is about 8 feet in altitude just shows that they added 2 feet of the laser + 6 feet drop according to the calculator. That should not be the result from a height of 2 feet and 3 mile distance. Its wrong. There is no way to get 8 feet.

Whatever you are asserting about "they are measuring the difference" is wrong. The difference they are referring to is how much the laser dot allegedly changed in altitude on that boat, compared to when the boat was right next to the laser. They say that there was a 6 foot difference because "6 feet" is what they got from the earth curve calculator and thought that means they had to rise the laser by 6 feet. Wrong in multiple ways.

The drop in the calculator is all the way to the bottom of the target boat. There is no adding the height of the observer to the bottom of the boat. That is wrong.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 09:24:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2018, 09:23:32 AM »
I have shown above that the laser height doesn't change the DIFFERENCE of 6 feet. The laser height cancels out.
If you don't understand my proof then find someone who understands math and get them to explain it to you.
"This is literally just a few people talking about it for a brief time every day on their spare time. That’s the flat earth movement" - Tom Bishop