The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Obviously on February 12, 2018, 10:34:49 PM

Title: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Obviously on February 12, 2018, 10:34:49 PM
...it's actually very simple, folks! It's usually the first thing that most flerfers try to dismiss (the way they do with everything else that resembles science, knowledge, facts, observations, etc.). The ships! Ok fine, not just ships, but really any object THE BOTTOM HALF OF WHICH IS HIDDEN BELOW THE HORIZON.

In trying to find something that can only be explained on a spherical Earth, I keep coming back to the same phenomenon: how objects disappear below the horizon. Right away I want to point out that all of those FE videos that supposedly bring ships back from beyond the horizon are completely missing the point: it’s not just about whether or not something disappears, it’s the fact that objects consistently disappear bottom first! It doesn’t matter what the object is (ship, building, the sun, etc.) - when it hides behind the horizon, it always does so bottom to top. I have not seen a single video or photo that shows otherwise, and none of the FE videos show anything like the bottom of the object reappearing when you zoom in. I'm sure most flerfers reading this will want to yell "perspective", but if you dig even a little deeper, it really does not explain anything... I mean, aside from things disappearing below the horizon, when have you seen anything seem to all of a sudden lose its bottom half as it moves away from you? What we actually see is that any object, no matter what shape or size, gradually gets smaller and smaller as the distance increases, eventually turning into a tiny blurry dot before it disappears completely. I claim, therefore, that on a flat earth we should see objects get smaller and disappear into blurry dots as they move away from us beyond the horizon, and the only possible explanation for the phenomenon we actually observe is that the curvature of our planet is physically blocking the bottom portion of the object in question from our view as it moves further away from us. To stay as objective as possible, I am ready to hear and be convinced by any convincing explanation of this from the side of the FE hypothesis. Accompanying pictures/videos/sketches would be highly appreciated. I’ve searched the internet, read many articles and comments, watched some videos, and could not find anything...

ACTUAL FACTS - PART 1:

Please watch the following videos carefully and honestly tell me if you think it would be possible to observe this on a flat earth, and if so, how:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPrTMz7a4X8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNGorPyX9OQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmmFDlErF1M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pUeznWpD4k
https://youtu.be/LVJFgIRIQ0A

As I mentioned, it’s not just ships. Here’s the same phenomenon with the Chicago skyline as viewed from Michigan

1. Take a look at these photos: https://joshuanowicki.smugmug.com/Looking-toward-Chicago-from-Mi/i-XVkLwR4 notice how the bottom half of the city is completely and consistently missing from all the shots, despite all the variables (e.g. humidity, temperature, lighting, elevation of the camera, atmospheric refraction and diffraction, etc.)
2. And here is how to properly calculate how much of the building should be hidden from view by Earth’s curvature: https://www.metabunk.org/curve/ AND https://www.quora.com/Chicago-is-59-miles-from-the-opposite-shore-of-Lake-Michigan-Given-the-earth%E2%80%99s-curvature-it-should-be-2320-feet-below-the-horizon-How-can-it-be-seen/answer/C-Stuart-Hardwick?srid=739d …as I hope you can see, this is in line with all the pictures and everything we’ve seen having actually lived in Chicago.. Here’s the normal skyline for reference, in case you’re starting to forget :) https://www.flickr.com/photos/yochicago1/7988970693

Here is the same phenomenon occurring with some towers near Tel Aviv: https://youtu.be/GrihjP5tTTM

And of course the same thing happens with the sun at every sunrise and sunset (do I really need to post videos of this? surely even the FE'ers amongst us have seen a proper sunset over water at some point)

What possible explanation can the FE side have here?

ACTUAL FACTS - PART 2:

And here is what it looks like when an object actually moves very far away from us, as opposed to being blocked by the Earth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kNgJw8zqbQ

Notice how the rocket gradually turns into a dot. This clearly demonstrates the concept of “vanishing point” (according to google, it’s “the point at which something that has been growing smaller or increasingly faint disappears altogether”). Notice, nothing gets cut in half here. You can surely observe the same thing by launching your drone very high up - it turns into a dot, doesn’t it? Simply put, when objects move far away from us they get smaller and fainter until we simply can’t see them anymore - would you agree? This is not what we see with the sun, ships, buildings, or anything else that disappears behind the horizon. And the whole “perspective” thing just doesn’t hold any water here: just think of what you see at the end of a very long corridor - a blurry point! You would never see just the top half (the ceiling?) with the bottom half disappearing; instead, everything just gets smaller and blurrier. Another great example of this is all the distant stats and galaxies looking like tiny dots in the sky. Here’s a wonderful animation demonstrating this concept with the moon: https://youtu.be/uexZbunD7Jg?t=159 (start at 2:41, although I hope the flerfers here watch the entire video ASAP) What are your arguments against this?

Again, flatties like to suggest that this kind of a phenomenon is somehow a function of distance and perspective. Think of any truly distant object. For example, the ISS! It’s in orbit ~254 miles above us. Here’s a picture of it passing in front of the moon: https://mk0spaceflightnoa02a.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ISS-closeup.jpg And here’s a picture of it passing in front of the sun during the solar eclipse: https://media.fox5ny.com/media.fox5ny.com/photo/2017/08/21/ECLIPSEISS3_1503346866006_3949527_ver1.0_640_360.jpg — notice, the whole entire thing is in view. Its bottom half is not cut off, despite all the distance. Keep in mind that on average, the horizon is only about 3-4 miles away from us! Perhaps you’ll say that we don’t know the actual distance the ISS is away from us, and we can’t trust NASA — but come on, whatever the actual distance, obviously it’s further away than just 3-4 miles. This proves that the phenomenon in question has nothing to do with distance, and has everything to do with the Earth itself blocking objects from view.

To sum it up, it is an indisputable fact that when objects are hidden below the horizon, their bottom portion is hidden first. The RE model (i.e. reality) offers a simple explanation for this, whereas the FE hypothesis has nothing.

I am hoping that some of the FE believers reading this can comprehend the information with an open mind instead of rejecting it immediately because it doesn't fit into their belief systems. Perhaps Mr. Tom Bishop can honor us with something more than just a sentence of dismissal. Sorry Tom, I don't think anyone takes you seriously anymore when you use the word "perspective" in every answer (or when you re-post the same silly youtube video that completely butchers basic concepts) -- you'll have to try harder than that. Let's see if we can get an actual debate going this time? Like where you address everything that's being posted, not just one random statement that you get to pick.

Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Sydney on February 15, 2018, 05:23:07 AM
The answer to your question regarding the object receding on the surface of water is refraction. You have several factors involved. Here is a video to explain (go to about 3:14 to see my point)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeo_-1h6qUc

So your argument is based upon what you see from the lenses of your own eyes, and perhaps you omit what is going on between your eyes and the object... the light and the water and temperature of the gases surrounding you. The point in the video aptly explains how an object on a flat surface disappears from the bottom up as it recedes in the distance. I do not how how else to make any more simpler than that.

The water in the atmosphere acts as a lens... more so if you are viewing parallel to the surface of the earth and get closer to the surface of the earth. So you are seeing an object through the lenses of your own eyes... through the refractory lens effect of the atmosphere... and this must be taken into consideration.

Regarding the so-called space ship receding from you outwardly, you will not have the refractory effect going on. The object will recede and get smaller and vanish. Your eyes are cameras. They can only handle so much.

Respect!
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Obviously on March 07, 2018, 04:19:53 PM
Sorry, that doesn’t really explain anything. Yes, atmospheric refraction and looming are real phenomena, but they don’t have nearly as much of an effect as you’re trying to ascribe to them. The fact that the bottom parts of all objects disappear so consistently easily shows this. Saying that the atmosphere acts as a lens is one the many non-answers flatties like to use to dismiss evidence and allow themselves not to examine the real world more closely.

In your video you are using a very specific type of lens — do you really think all the random gases in the atmosphere consistently combine to form this kind of lens? Any tiny variation would completely change the picture.

And of course, to completely destroy your argument: notice that in your video the sun changes in size as it moves closer and further away, which is not at all what we observe in the real world (because the sun is way further away that flerfers like to admit)! This is another easy way to disprove the FE lies, thanks for reminding us :)
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Particle Person on March 08, 2018, 01:53:11 AM
One of the effects of mass is that it attracts other mass. For small objects, like your computer, your car, and even a building, the force of gravity is tiny. But when you have millions, and even trillions of tonnes of mass, the effect of the gravity really builds up. All of the mass pulls on all the other mass, and it tries to create the most efficient shape… a sphere.

How can I verify this myself?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Cain on March 08, 2018, 01:19:51 PM
I give this thread approximately 3 days
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: junker on March 08, 2018, 03:21:39 PM
I give this thread approximately 3 days

Keep the non-contributing memes out of the upper fora, please.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: wRadion on March 09, 2018, 01:51:52 AM
im pretty new to the flat earth but i believe it is to do with large "ice walls" that surround the flat earth you may want to refer to some research on these "ice walls". this could be wrong as i am new to this.

By simple curiosity, why do you believe the flat earth theory?
This is not a game or an activity. Being "new to this" doesn't make any sense. Either you believe it or you don't.

Also, you do realize that the "ice walls" thing is actually from the round earth theory? (Most) everyone says that Antarctica surrounds the flat earth, but did you know that the flat earth map is actually a 2D projection of the round earth? So, if you believe that the round earth theory is fake, then the map of the flat earth is completely wrong... Just saying.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Ratboy on March 09, 2018, 02:08:33 PM
I see that the whole problem with the model demonstration is that even though light bends downward when passing from air to water, it bends upwards passing from water to air.  So for the sun to be staying above the horizon all the time and we just think it is setting we would have to live underwater.  I can use the same argument of the video by saying that scientists have concluded that not only is there a lot of water in the atmosphere, there is also a lot of air, actually more air than water.  So the light should bend upward.  And it does.  That is why sunsets actually last a little longer than they should.  Well it has nothing to do with the water vapour, just the curvature of the atmosphere acts like a lens so we can see the sun a little longer even though it has dropped just below the horizon.  So the opposite to the video is what is seen.  If we like to practice Zetetic principles, we should conclude the earth is round, not flat.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Ratboy on March 09, 2018, 02:14:39 PM
I see that the whole problem with the model demonstration is that even though light bends downward when passing from air to water, it bends upwards passing from water to air.  So for the sun to be staying above the horizon all the time and we just think it is setting we would have to live underwater.  I can use the same argument of the video by saying that scientists have concluded that not only is there a lot of water in the atmosphere, there is also a lot of air, actually more air than water.  So the light should bend upward.  And it does.  That is why sunsets actually last a little longer than they should.  Well it has nothing to do with the water vapour, just the curvature of the atmosphere acts like a lens so we can see the sun a little longer even though it has dropped just below the horizon.  So the opposite to the video is what is seen.  If we like to practice Zetetic principles, we should conclude the earth is round, not flat.
I will just add that for people who want to follow Zetetic principles, the sunset will last about 3 minutes longer than it should if there was no atmosphere (even with water vapour present).  So it will take a little bit of accuracy to measure this.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Ratboy on March 12, 2018, 04:19:24 PM
I think one of the easiest examples here to see and does not require living by a coast is to watch the full moon.  It is always facing you.  The only way for this to happen for everyone everywhere no matter if the moon is on the horizon or directly overhead, is for us to be turning on a sphere and for the moon to be very far away.  If you want to be a Rowbotham and ignore other people in the world, you can believe the moon turns to face just you, but if you acknowledge that there really are other people in the world that matter, you cannot stick to the FE idea.  Zetetic principles require it.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Curious Squirrel on March 12, 2018, 04:25:53 PM
I think one of the easiest examples here to see and does not require living by a coast is to watch the full moon.  It is always facing you.  The only way for this to happen for everyone everywhere no matter if the moon is on the horizon or directly overhead, is for us to be turning on a sphere and for the moon to be very far away.  If you want to be a Rowbotham and ignore other people in the world, you can believe the moon turns to face just you, but if you acknowledge that there really are other people in the world that matter, you cannot stick to the FE idea.  Zetetic principles require it.
Actually this is another location where they invoke their perspective 'rule'. Anytime you have a visual oddity, simply assume they've decided it's perspective and you won't be too far off.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Ratboy on March 13, 2018, 03:09:51 AM
I think one of the easiest examples here to see and does not require living by a coast is to watch the full moon.  It is always facing you.  The only way for this to happen for everyone everywhere no matter if the moon is on the horizon or directly overhead, is for us to be turning on a sphere and for the moon to be very far away.  If you want to be a Rowbotham and ignore other people in the world, you can believe the moon turns to face just you, but if you acknowledge that there really are other people in the world that matter, you cannot stick to the FE idea.  Zetetic principles require it.
Actually this is another location where they invoke their perspective 'rule'. Anytime you have a visual oddity, simply assume they've decided it's perspective and you won't be too far off.
I am not sure they are saying that if a car is far enough away when it approaches you that you will see the undercarriage and not the headlights.  Then you see the undercarriage as it drives over you and as it races away, you do not see the taillights, but you still see the undercarriage. And everyone else watching it, no matter where they are, only see the undercarriage, and not the passenger side or driver side. That is some wacky perspective.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on March 14, 2018, 10:20:56 AM
More proof of the same thing. No way flat-heads can explain this.

Wake up, people: this is all the proof that is necessary. These pictures completely destroy FE "theory" (whoever called it a theory obviously wasn't familiar with the actual meaning of the term).
Unfortunately, they do have an "explanation" for these photos. It's one of their "heads I win, tails you lose" pieces of reasoning. The conversation goes something like

RE: Ships sink hull first as they go over the horizon because of the curve of the earth
FE: Rowbotham proved that the hull can be restored by use of a telescope
[I never understand why Tom keeps saying Rowbotham "proved" things, Rowbotham simply claimed things which is very different]
RE: All optical zoom does is make things bigger and clearer, if the hull is over the horizon then no zoom will restore it. Look at this picture.
FE: That's waves.
RE: What?
FE: Waves in between you and the ship/building. You know, like how a dime can hide an elephant.
RE: But...you literally just said that it wasn't things going over the horizon and they could be restored using a telescope!
FE: Yes, but...LOOK OVER THERE! *runs away*
FE: (to other FErs) We won another one! *high fives all round*

I meant to write a post showing how the waves argument was, frankly, bullshit. Haven't got around to it yet. but it's fairly obvious from this video that the waves are fairly consistent as the video is all taken on the same afternoon, so the only possibility is the building is occluded by the curve of the earth.

https://youtu.be/MoK2BKj7QYk
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: jimbob on March 14, 2018, 02:46:32 PM
So you ban people for producing evidence the Earth is round. Dont you think that is a bit below the belt in a discussion forum.
Here are a couple more examples of the same thing:

https://farm1.static.flickr.com/37/124639197_6d8031f5f0.jpg?v=0
https://youtu.be/_8-kKrM1xYQ

Was there something about the last warning you didn't understand? Since you are on repeated warnings and 2 bans already, have a month off to review the rules again.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: junker on March 14, 2018, 03:04:02 PM
So you ban people for producing evidence the Earth is round.

No. I would suggest maybe applying some critical thinking before making baseless assumptions in the future. Also, if you want to discuss the rules, or the policy on how warnings and bans are issued, take it to the Suggestions & Concerns forum. It only serves to further derail the thread.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Obviously on April 13, 2018, 06:32:34 PM
I read recently that flat earthers generally don’t accept photo or video evidence, so this is for those of you who are not paranoid enough to think that NASA is busy cranking out fake videos and photoshopped pictures of earth, and that billions of petabytes of various media from other professional organizations and amateur videos are also somehow fake:

https://youtu.be/QVa2UmgdTM4

This yet again demonstrates the same idea I described above, but this time with cool lasers, boats, and even a helicopter.

Can we hear even a single objection or criticism of the undisuputable evidence presented in this thread?

To all other sane people here: this is really the only argument that matters if you think about it, and it’s the simplest one. I think the fact that there are no FE explanations for the phenomena described above is all we need to know that FE "theory" is a hoax. I think we should all ask Tom and Pete to comment here and say what they really think without evading the evidence shown.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 13, 2018, 07:08:36 PM
I read recently that flat earthers generally don’t accept photo or video evidence, so this is for those of you who are not paranoid enough to think that NASA is busy cranking out fake videos and photoshopped pictures of earth, and that billions of petabytes of various media from other professional organizations and amateur videos are also somehow fake:

https://youtu.be/QVa2UmgdTM4

This yet again demonstrates the same idea I described above, but this time with cool lasers, boats, and even a helicopter.

Can we hear even a single objection or criticism of the undisuputable evidence presented in this thread?

To all other sane people here: this is really the only argument that matters if you think about it, and it’s the simplest one. I think the fact that there are no FE explanations for the phenomena described above is all we need to know that FE "theory" is a hoax. I think we should all ask Tom and Pete to comment here and say what they really think without evading the evidence shown.

Jeran covered this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji6fscUG82c
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tumeni on April 13, 2018, 07:21:16 PM
Jeran covered this one:

Please summarise, or make some relevant point about the content of the video you're quoting. Don't just link to the video and name the author. I've seen the moderator take issue with that approach.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Obviously on April 14, 2018, 01:05:06 AM
Seriously, wtf Tom? First, that’s really all you have to say in response to this entire thread? Second, I wasted about 2-3 min of my life watching various segments of this ridiculous video you posted, and it seemed to be all about insulting and disrespecting Professor Stephen Hawking. You really expect any intelligent person to watch this crap? Which part of it is so important and relevant to this discussion? Can you answer ANY of the questions I brought up earlier?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 14, 2018, 08:36:55 AM
What a horrible video, Tom.
Massively disrespectful of Stephen Hawking
There's an interview here with someone who actually knows what they're talking about on ALS
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stephen-hawking-als/

The video starts with the assertion that Stephen Hawking died years ago and was replaced...I just have no idea why anyone would have done that. That would had to have happened way before Hawking even became famous and his life is so well documented that it is a completely ridiculous claim. That right there should tell you this bloke is off the charts crazy and the rest of his opinions should be regarded with some suspicion.

I did watch most of the video so I could sensibly respond.

Just before 9 minutes he says something about the laser going into space because of the angle of it - interesting how selectively you guys use perspective which is clearly the explanation here.

10 minutes he draws the laser at a ridiculous angle. You can't see that on the video and even if he's claiming the laser is not parallel to the ground the angle can't be anywhere near that steep to only appear 6 feet above the boat at 3 miles.

15 minutes he does some straw manning about Eratosthenes being called the best scientist ever because he was getting the results that "they" wanted.
Who are "they"? And why would "they" want any particular result? We're talking about thousands of years ago. Why would "they" want to hide the true shape of the earth?

So where did the helicopter go? He says how ridiculous it is that it would be behind a hill of water but provides no alternative explanation. Please don't say waves, the lake was clearly very calm. At 24 minutes he states that water doesn't curve and doesn't hide helicopters. He declares it as ludicrous but offers no other explanation

At 25 minutes he talks says that when people lie they have a reason but provides no theory as to why scientists would be lying about this.
He says observations show earth to be the centre of things with no examples of observations that do.

He then berates a certain scientist for doing no experiments. That reminds me of someone...


In brief, it's the standard flat earth response to being proved wrong. Shout fake at anything which shows you to be wrong.
Summed up by this Wiki page.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Place_of_the_Conspiracy_in_FET

Quote
P1) If personally unverifiable evidence contradicts an obvious truth then the evidence is fabricated
P2) The Flat Earth is an obvious truth

Case closed. The initial video proves a globe earth ergo it must be fake. No explanation required. Lazy...
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 14, 2018, 09:17:18 AM
Starting around the 5:30 minute mark looking at the laser-boat example Jeran clearly demonstrates many inconsistencies in the video and the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory. The experimenter is not seen to do any measuring when they receive of the beam at the boat. The beam is pointing upwards into the sky from the boat rather than at it, among other issues.

The "results" stated in the video of the boat-laser example exactly matches what the results would be if one used an earth curvature calculator to calculate the drop if the height of the observer (or laser in this experiment) was zero. Someone in production obviously just found the results they wanted while neglecting to account for the height of the laser, which would have given a significantly different result.

This takes the experiment from the level of inconsistent to the level of fraudulent.

While Stephen Hawking is disrespected several times in the video, seeing that this is a fraud, I feel that the disrespect is probably deserving.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 14, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
In the next next telescope-helicopter experiment, starting around the 13 minute mark, Jeran again shows that the production team used a round earth curve calculator to calculate the distance to get what they wanted. The results are exactly what an earth curve calculator would show if the height of the observer were zero.

It is quite odd that the results for these experiments are identical to an earth curvature calculator if the height of the observer were set to zero, despite the observer height being above zero. But who is to doubt the famous Stephen Hawking?

Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 14, 2018, 09:43:51 AM
Where did the helicopter go, given that the lake was clearly calm with no significant waves?

And does the fact that he starts the video by claiming that Hawking died years ago not ring any alarm bells about the bloke's sanity?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 14, 2018, 04:48:58 PM
Where did the helicopter go, given that the lake was clearly calm with no significant waves?

And does the fact that he starts the video by claiming that Hawking died years ago not ring any alarm bells about the bloke's sanity?

The helicopter may have disappeared via refraction or the sinking ship effect as described in Earth Not a Globe.

Jeran employs a lot of sarcsam in his videos. Later in the video he clearly refers to Stephen Hawking as if he were still living, which he was at the time.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tumeni on April 14, 2018, 05:03:14 PM
...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 14, 2018, 05:09:03 PM
...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?

The results of this experiment were fraudulent. If we can't trust the results, we can't trust anything else about this experiment.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Rama Set on April 14, 2018, 05:13:34 PM
Starting around the 5:30 minute mark looking at the laser-boat example Jeran clearly demonstrates many inconsistencies in the video and the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory. The experimenter is not seen to do any measuring when they receive of the beam at the boat. The beam is pointing upwards into the sky from the boat rather than at it, among other issues.

The "results" stated in the video of the boat-laser example exactly matches what the results would be if one used an earth curvature calculator to calculate the drop if the height of the observer (or laser in this experiment) was zero. Someone in production obviously just found the results they wanted while neglecting to account for the height of the laser, which would have given a significantly different result.

Your conclusion is incorrect.  Since they are plotting out a datum line, the amount of drop from the datum would be identical to an observer at height zero.

Quote
This takes the experiment from the level of inconsistent to the level of fraudulent.

lol

Quote
While Stephen Hawking is disrespected several times in the video, seeing that this is a fraud, I feel that the disrespect is probably deserving.

Seeing as it isn't a fraud but simply your misunderstanding (and Jeran's as usual!), would it be ok if I called you an idiot?  Just trying to figure what your standard of civil discourse is here.

...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?

No his claim is that the source of the measured curvature could maybe possibly be attributed to other sources.  Seeing as he has done nothing to substantiate this claim, there is no reason to consider it.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Rama Set on April 14, 2018, 05:15:26 PM
...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?

The results of this experiment were fraudulent. If we can't trust the results, we can't trust anything else about this experiment.

So you don't think they even measured a drop?  Where is your evidence for that?  I thought you just ignorantly disputed the conclusion.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: xenotolerance on April 14, 2018, 05:16:09 PM
If Tom can find an example of bad scientific writing on a reality television show, in a segment that demonstrates the curvature of the Earth regardless of what numbers the actors are saying, how does that prove anything? The clip of the helicopter disappearing over the horizon is evidence that Rowbotham's sinking ship effect doesn't exist. Add it to the pile from the OP.

but oh man, the writers forgot or didn't know to use the right numbers. it's not fraudulent, at worst it's just incorrect math. and it isn't even that. the actual results we can work with are the videos. those are not fraudulent.

and y'all definitely don't want to introduce 'if the results are fraudulent, none of it can be trusted' when you refer to Rowbotham as much as you do
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 14, 2018, 05:33:17 PM
Starting around the 5:30 minute mark looking at the laser-boat example Jeran clearly demonstrates many inconsistencies in the video and the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory. The experimenter is not seen to do any measuring when they receive of the beam at the boat. The beam is pointing upwards into the sky from the boat rather than at it, among other issues.

The "results" stated in the video of the boat-laser example exactly matches what the results would be if one used an earth curvature calculator to calculate the drop if the height of the observer (or laser in this experiment) was zero. Someone in production obviously just found the results they wanted while neglecting to account for the height of the laser, which would have given a significantly different result.

This takes the experiment from the level of inconsistent to the level of fraudulent.

While Stephen Hawking is disrespected several times in the video, seeing that this is a fraud, I feel that the disrespect is probably deserving.

Right. I've gone through this in more detail.

At 7:40 Jeran claims there is 10 inches of change at the first location when there should be almost none, but he is completely estimating that. There is no calibration on the video so there is no basis for that claim of 10 inches. Later in the video he chastises the makers for claiming the difference is 6 feet without proper measurement, he does the exact same thing here.

8:50 he shows this still and says you can see the laser coming from the shore and asks why she isn't behind a hill of water.

(https://image.ibb.co/hsJMmn/laser1.jpg)

The answer, quite simply, is it depends how high the film was taken from and in that still you can't determine that.
BUT, if you do this earth curve calculator and put in a distance of 3 miles and an eye height of 3 feet then you'll see the target hidden height is 0.5 feet.

https://dizzib.github.io/earth/curve-calc/?d0=3&h0=3&unit=imperial

I think we can safely assume that the camera is more than 3 feet off the ground, given that they're on a boat, so unless the laser is lower than that 6 inches to the ground - which it clearly isn't - you'd be able to see it from 3 miles.

He then says the still shows the laser is "shooting off into space". It's amazing how selectively you guys use perspective.
You say over and over that sunset is caused by merging perspective lines and use the example that railroad tracks look closer the further they are, but here the guy wilfully misunderstands perspective to imply the laser is not horizontal. At best it's stupid, at worst it's downright dishonest.

The guy on the original video proclaims the difference to be 6 feet admittedly with little accuracy, Jeran picks up on that but the point here surely is on a flat earth the difference would be 0. The only way to account for the difference is if the laser is not horizontal which you have no basis for other than just shouting "PANTS ON FIRE!" or pretending on this occasion that you don't understand perspective.

He then produces this ridiculous still which he has drawn lines on:

(https://image.ibb.co/fEOMmn/laser3.jpg)

Where does he get that angle from? If that angle was accurate then the laser would be about 20 feet away, not 3 miles. He then uses that as the basis for saying that the lake must tilt ridiculously if that was right. It's a complete straw man, the angle of the laser cannot be as shown there. This is the actual still

(https://image.ibb.co/fWaZ6n/laser4.jpg)

You can't see the line of the laser but given that it's coming from 3 miles away it's impossible that the angle is as he shows in his annotated still.

He then claims they made the result what they expected it to be, again the difference was not accurately measured but the important point is there WAS a difference and yes, it was about 6 feet. Now comes the interesting part. He claims that the difference should have only been 1 foot because they neglected to take into account the height of the laser. He is wrong because the thing they are measuring is the DIFFERENCE in height at the two distances. Look at this diagram showing two lasers both horizontal to the ground but at different heights.

(https://image.ibb.co/i6g7Rn/laser5.jpg)

The difference in heights of the green laser is: H2 - H0
The difference in heights of the red laser is: H3 - H1.

But because the lasers are parall H1-H0 = H3-H2
(note that because of the angles shown in the diagram there would be a very slight difference but these angles are grossly exaggerated, in real life the difference would be negligible over 3 miles on a globe the size of the earth).

So, if:
H1-H0 = H3-H2

We can add H0 to both sides to get:

H1 = H3 + H0 - H2

So we can substute H1 for H3 + H0 - H2

H3 - H1
= H3 - (H3 + H0 - H2)
= H2 - H0 (+H2 because we have two minuses, which cancel out)

QED. The laser height cancels itself, his claim that they failed to account for the height of the laser is spurious.

So your only get out now is to claim they're lying which you have no basis for other than the experiment proves you wrong.

Oh, and he clearly does thing Hawking died years ago, he spends some part of the video talking about ALS and other celebrities who got it and how long they lived with the disease, why bother doing that if he was kidding?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Rama Set on April 14, 2018, 05:40:36 PM
Where did the helicopter go, given that the lake was clearly calm with no significant waves?

And does the fact that he starts the video by claiming that Hawking died years ago not ring any alarm bells about the bloke's sanity?

The helicopter may have disappeared via refraction or the sinking ship effect as described in Earth Not a Globe.

How could the sinking ship effect, even if it weren't hogwash, apply to an object only moving in its Y-axis?  The sinking ship effect applies to objects receding from its observer.
 Refraction does not make objects appear lower, but higher.  So both of those explanations are terrible.

Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 15, 2018, 07:09:55 AM
These last few posts show that more than anything else flat earthers aren't "free thinkers" or "empiricists".
Flat earth is a religion. A faith. It's dogma.

The video clearly shows the earth is a globe so it must be fake. Jerad's analysis is pathetic, frankly.

He claims that at 500 feet the difference is 10 inches but his only basis for that is a rough estimate from a still of the video. If the difference were 10 inches over 500 feet then over 3 miles (15840 feet) that would mean the laser being over 26 feet above the boat...

He asks why the laser isn't "behind a hill of water" but his own round earth curve calculator shows that at 3 miles you would expect to see it so long as the laser and the viewer are more than a couple of feet off the earth, which they are.

He says the laser is "shooting off into space" but deliberately ignores perspective, if the laser was really going up at the angle he shows then it would be way above the boat at 3 miles.

He is sarcastic about the lack of an accurate measurement of 6 feet but misses the point that on a flat earth there would be no difference at all.

I've now realised he used the same ridiculous angle from before to claim the lake must be tilting. This is an even more dishonest use - or misuse - of perspective. He uses the same apparent laser angle from before and uses it on a still taken from a completely different angle. If that angle was right the laser would be about 20 feet away.

Finally he claims that the 6 foot doesn't take into account the height of the laser. As I have shown, when measuring the DIFFERENCE you don't need to, the laser height cancels out.

So there's nowhere else to go for flat earthers now. All the objections are spurious. Their only tactic now is to shout "FAKE!" with no basis and run away.
Easy to "prove" yourself right if you discount all the evidence showing you to be wrong...
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: JohnAdams1145 on April 15, 2018, 08:53:26 AM
The "waves" argument doesn't cut it, as it is observed that more of the buildings get blocked off the farther you get from them.

Let's say we sampled wave height from a Gaussian distribution (or any other probability distribution for that matter). Obviously, the tallest wave is the one that does the blocking. Increasing the distance merely increases the number of samples. I'm far too lazy to do the PDF calculation of a bunch of IID random variables (hint: use the CDF of the underlying distribution to get the CDF for the distribution of the maximum and differentiate), but one can intuitively see that beyond a certain point, increasing the distance has a negligible effect on the height of the tallest wave, which is contrary to what we see in practice (the building disappears).

It's sort of like expecting that if you get 1000000000000000000 human beings together you could find one 5m tall.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Obviously on April 16, 2018, 01:36:15 AM
...  the fact that the curvature seen does not match up to Round Earth Theory.

...so you agree that the video DOES show curvature, but claim that it isn't as much or as little as it should be?

The results of this experiment were fraudulent. If we can't trust the results, we can't trust anything else about this experiment.

Yea, nice try Tom :) Especially now that AllAround took the time to analyze Jeran's idiotic video, we can see that the only fraud here is coming from the FE side (as usual).

And yes, we have caught you red-handed admitting that you saw curvature! I mean, you said it right there. It's on the internets forever now. How about all the other videos I posted previously? Are you going to start denying that you saw curvature there?

Meanwhile, in the real world:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0ObTd7DLMw

Where's the bottom of that ship, Tom?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2018, 06:52:28 AM
(https://image.ibb.co/i6g7Rn/laser5.jpg)

The difference in heights of the green laser is: H2 - H0
The difference in heights of the red laser is: H3 - H1.

But because the lasers are parall H1-H0 = H3-H2
(note that because of the angles shown in the diagram there would be a very slight difference but these angles are grossly exaggerated, in real life the difference would be negligible over 3 miles on a globe the size of the earth).

So, if:
H1-H0 = H3-H2

We can add H0 to both sides to get:

H1 = H3 + H0 - H2

So we can substute H1 for H3 + H0 - H2

H3 - H1
= H3 - (H3 + H0 - H2)
= H2 - H0 (+H2 because we have two minuses, which cancel out)

QED. The laser height cancels itself, his claim that they failed to account for the height of the laser is spurious.

So your only get out now is to claim they're lying which you have no basis for other than the experiment proves you wrong.

Oh, and he clearly does thing Hawking died years ago, he spends some part of the video talking about ALS and other celebrities who got it and how long they lived with the disease, why bother doing that if he was kidding?

There is only one laser in the experiment at one height. There are not two lasers. The test is not tried twice with the laser at two positions. The laser is in one position. This is a standard curvature viewing experiment and the height of the observer needs to be accounted for.

They say that the laser (at your higher height) reaches the boat where it would be if the height of the laser was at zero altitude. Look it up. They are not comparing anything. They flatly say that the higher laser reaches the boat where it should not reach.

The second experiment doesn't even use lasers. It's a telescope looking at a helicopter. There is only one height there too, and the height needs to be accounted there as well. It is a standard experiment that looks over a body of water. The height of the observer matters.

The experiments are looking to see how much the target drops. Your interpretation is spurious. They do not describe what you describe anywhere in the video. They view from your red line and say that it reached a point where it should be if it originated from zero altitude. This is wrong in RET, and shows fraud.

They are not comparing the laser at 3 feet compared to the laser at 0 feet. They do not use the word "difference" anywhere. The difference isn't even 6 feet according to RET curvature, anyway.

The result of both experiments is exactly what the result would be if the height of the observer were 0 in an earth curvature experiment. Jeran explains this. Your explanation of "two heights" is nonsense. The laser at the first height, the high hight, should not have be seen where they say it was seen. It is seen as if the height were zero. The observer is looking over a bulge of water, at one height, and the height of that observer matters.

The results show that the experiment is a fraud.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2018, 07:06:36 AM
These last few posts show that more than anything else flat earthers aren't "free thinkers" or "empiricists".
Flat earth is a religion. A faith. It's dogma.

No. That you expect us to accept video unquestionably is dogma. The fact that we are questioning this is the opposite of dogma

Quote
Finally he claims that the 6 foot doesn't take into account the height of the laser. As I have shown, when measuring the DIFFERENCE you don't need to, the laser height cancels out.

That is not what they are claiming in the video. They claim to be measuring the drop of the boat. Did you even watch it? Why are you making things up?

The "difference" for those altitudes doesn't match RET curvature values either. THE HIGH HEIGHT RESULT IS WHAT THE LOW (ZERO) HEIGHT SHOULD BE. Look at an earth curve calculator to verify what Jeran is saying.

They are measuring the drop. It is a simple experiment. The height needs to be accounted for. The fact that they give an exact number for how much the boat drops, that is identical to a Round Earth curvature calculator if the height were set to zero, shows that the results of this experiment were fraudulent.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2018, 07:45:45 AM
Yea, nice try Tom :) Especially now that AllAround took the time to analyze Jeran's idiotic video, we can see that the only fraud here is coming from the FE side (as usual).

AllAround doesn't even understand what is happening. His assessments, accusations, and conclusions on this forum are generally amateur and a big waste of my time.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 08:55:38 AM
AllAround doesn't even understand what is happening. His assessments, accusations, and conclusions on this forum are generally amateur and a big waste of my time.

This from the man who thinks that if I look at a row of lamps and I raise my hand above the level of the furthest lamp then that lamp "sees" my hand above it (even though the lamp is physically taller) and so the shadow is magically cast upwards.  :D.
I'll let others decide who is the one talking sense here. Anyway...

No. That you expect us to accept video unquestionably is dogma. The fact that we are questioning this is the opposite of dogma

That's a straw man. I don't expect you to do that. But I have shown that all Jeran's objections are without merit. All of them.
So your only recourse now is to shout "FAKE!" and run away, claiming victory, as you always do.
Although I see you're still floundering around trying to misunderstand the experiment until you have some basis for claiming fraud

There is only one laser but you have completely misunderstood what I have shown. What I have shown is that the DIFFERENCE in the height of the laser between the first measurement and the second measurement would be the same regardless of laser height. And that IS what they are measuring.

The laser is clearly much more than 6 feet above the water level at 3 miles away. When the guy measures it the second time he has to stand on the side of the boat and reach up to mark it. Look again at the still

(https://image.ibb.co/fWaZ6n/laser4.jpg)

The audio from the video is:

Man: "It's like 6 feet"
Woman: "Yeah, it seems a lot HIGHER"
Then Hawking says that "At three miles the laser seems to have RISEN by 6 feet"

Note my emphasis. It IS the difference they are measuring - otherwise why take the first measurement at all? - and that difference does not depend on the laser height.
According to round earth calculations 6 feet of the boat should be occluded at ground level, so the laser should be 6 feet higher. It is.

Quote
They say that the laser higher height reaches the boat where it would be if the height of the laser was at zero altitude.

Can you point me to the part of the video where they say that?   :)

How are the horizon dip experiments coming along by the way?  ;D
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2018, 09:16:08 AM
The audio from the video is:

Man: "It's like 6 feet"
Woman: "Yeah, it seems a lot HIGHER"
Then Hawking says that "At three miles the laser seems to have RISEN by 6 feet"

Note my emphasis. It IS the difference they are measuring - otherwise why take the first measurement at all? - and that difference does not depend on the laser height.

According to round earth calculations 6 feet of the boat should be occluded at ground level, so the laser should be 6 feet higher. It is.

Look guy, let me spell it out for you.

The laser was at 2 feet in altitude. The distance to the boat was 3 miles.

Open this earth curve calculator. (http://Open this earth curve calculator.)

At 2 feet and 3 miles, 1.07 feet are hidden. Not 6 feet.

If we put in 0 feet and 3 miles, 6 feet are hidden, which is the vertical distance they say the laser rises on the boat.

The fact that they mark a position on the boat that is about 8 feet in altitude just shows that they added 2 feet of the laser + 6 feet drop according to the calculator. That should not be the result from a height of 2 feet and 3 mile distance. Its wrong. There is no way to get 8 feet.

Whatever you are asserting about "they are measuring the difference" is wrong. The difference they are referring to is how much the laser dot allegedly changed in altitude on that boat, compared to when the boat was right next to the laser. They say that there was a 6 foot difference because "6 feet" is what they got from the earth curve calculator and thought that means they had to rise the laser by 6 feet. Wrong in multiple ways.

The drop in the calculator is all the way to the bottom of the target boat. There is no adding the height of the observer to the bottom of the boat. That is wrong.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 09:23:32 AM
I have shown above that the laser height doesn't change the DIFFERENCE of 6 feet. The laser height cancels out.
If you don't understand my proof then find someone who understands math and get them to explain it to you.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2018, 09:30:44 AM
The laser height does not "cancel out". What are you talking about? It is a simple experiment. The height of the observer in the water convexity experiment doesn't get added to the bottom of the boat.

Your height changes how much the drop is. At 0 feet the drop is 6 feet at 3 miles. At 3 feet the drop is 1 foot at 3 miles.

Whatever you are imagining in your head is clearly wrong. Use the calculator and try to come up with a scenario where we would place the laser dot at 8 feet above the water's surface. How did they get 8 feet? They took the height of the laser and added 6 feet to it. That is all there is to it.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 09:47:57 AM
*sigh*

You're mixing up 2 things.
Of course the observer height changes how much of the boat you can see - Jerad questions in his video why you can see the laser and I dealt with that, if the laser and the observer are both a couple of feet off the ground then you can see it. But don't mix that up with how much the laser height changes.

If the laser was 0 feet off the ground then the two measurements would be 0 feet and 6 feet.
The laser is about 2 feet off the ground so the two measurements are 2 feet and 8 feet.
I have explained above why the difference is the same no matter what the height of the laser is.

I've added a blue line to my diagram which represents what you can see. That does vary with height the difference of the laser height does not because the laser is set to be parallel with the ground. Your vision doesn't have to be.

(https://image.ibb.co/ioEcwn/laser6.jpg)

So the green line represents a laser at ground level and is also what you would see at ground level. That's the 0 and 6 feet.
The red line represents a laser a couple of feet off the ground. That's the 2 and 8 feet.
But the BLUE line is what you can see at 2 feet. You don't have to look parallel to the ground - you look slightly down over the curve of the earth so can see more.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2018, 09:51:37 AM
You are giving me a headache. You have it wrong. That is not the way it works. There is no way to get 8 feet. The height of the laser isn't added to the bottom of the boat in that experiment. The drop in the calculator refers to the drop all the way to the surface of the earth.

You are interpreting this wrongly.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 09:55:30 AM
The height of the laser isn't added to the bottom of the boat in that experiment. The drop in the calculator refers to the drop all the way to the surface of the earth.
Yes. Which is 6 feet. So if the laser was at ground level then the laser would hit the boat at 6 feet. That's the green line.
But the laser isn't at 0 feet, it's at 2 feet. So the first measurement is (about) 2 feet, the second measurement is (about) 8 feet. The difference is STILL 6 FEET.
I did prove that mathematically above. If you don't understand that proof then I'm not sure how to help you.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2018, 10:24:04 AM
The height of the laser isn't added to the bottom of the boat in that experiment. The drop in the calculator refers to the drop all the way to the surface of the earth.
Yes. Which is 6 feet. So if the laser was at ground level then the laser would hit the boat at 6 feet. That's the green line.
But the laser isn't at 0 feet, it's at 2 feet. So the first measurement is (about) 2 feet, the second measurement is (about) 8 feet. The difference is STILL 6 FEET.
I did prove that mathematically above. If you don't understand that proof then I'm not sure how to help you.

Lets look at this step by step.

Assume that the boat is 10 feet high. Lets refer to the earth calculator to what we should be able to SEE.

At a 0 feet observer height and a 3 mile distant boat, you see that 6 feet of the boat is hidden, right? 4 feet of the boat are visible.

At a 2 feet observer height and 3 mile distant boat, you see that 1 feet of the boat is hidden, right? 9 feet are visible.

The laser is the 2 foot high observer, and sees 9 feet visible of the 10 foot high boat. How is it possible to shoot a laser horizontally and hit a mark 8 feet high on the boat? That laser would have to be angled upwards.

Simple.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 10:32:48 AM
The laser is the 2 foot high observer, and sees 9 feet visible of the 10 foot high boat. How is it possible to shoot a laser horizontally and hit a mark 8 feet high on the boat? That laser would have to be angled upwards.
Because the laser is the red line - the light shines parallel to the ground but that ground curves away, that is what makes the height of the laser appear to rise.

(https://image.ibb.co/ioEcwn/laser6.jpg)

But the observer is the blue line - he looks slightly downwards across the curve of the earth and sees more of the boat. The blue line represents the lowest point of the boat he can see.
Basically, the laser is parallel to the ground, the observer's view is not.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2018, 10:45:30 AM
Now you appear to just be saying that at 3 miles the 2 foot high laser sees 9 feet of the boat, but that the boat is tilted enough by the curvature of the earth that the laser dot reaches 8 feet in altitude. I think we can all see your argument for what it is now.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Stagiri on April 16, 2018, 10:52:16 AM
Now you appear to just be saying that at 3 miles the 2 foot high laser sees 9 feet of the boat, but that the boat is tilted enough by the curvature of the earth that the laser dot reaches 8 feet in altitude. I think we can all see your argument for what it is now.

The laser is not focused on the horizon, it is parallel to the ground.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 10:58:57 AM
Now you appear to just be saying that at 3 miles the 2 foot high laser sees 9 feet of the boat, but that the boat is tilted enough by the curvature of the earth that the laser dot reaches 8 feet in altitude. I think we can all see your argument for what it is now.

The laser is not focused on the horizon, it is parallel to the ground.
Indeed. Unfortunately Tom doesn't seem to understand the difference even though I've drawn a diagram which explains it.
Whaddaya do?  ???
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 11:13:33 AM
Now you appear to just be saying that at 3 miles the 2 foot high laser sees 9 feet of the boat, but that the boat is tilted enough by the curvature of the earth that the laser dot reaches 8 feet in altitude. I think we can all see your argument for what it is now.
You can see from the red line why the laser rises. The laser and ground start parallel but the ground slopes away, because the earth is a sphere
And you can see from the blue line that yes, the laser could hit the boat lower down but only by angling the laser downwards.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Stagiri on April 16, 2018, 11:20:31 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/k280Xo4.png)

Red line - laser parallel to the ground/observer; both at 0 feet.
Green line - laser parallel to the ground at 1 feet.
Purple line - observer at 1 feet

Do you understand now, Mr. Bishop? You are talking about the purple line, we are talking about green line.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 16, 2018, 11:25:27 AM
Now you appear to just be saying that at 3 miles the 2 foot high laser sees 9 feet of the boat, but that the boat is tilted enough by the curvature of the earth that the laser dot reaches 8 feet in altitude. I think we can all see your argument for what it is now.
You can see from the red line why the laser rises. The laser and ground start parallel but the ground slopes away, because the earth is a sphere
And you can see from the blue line that yes, the laser could hit the boat lower down but only by angling the laser downwards.

I see what you are trying to argue, but I don't believe that the boat would be angled away by the curvature of the earth enough to cause that effect. The angle is very miniscule.

Measuring the amount that objects angles away isn't even the stated goal of the experiment in the video.

Regardless, the second experiment does not use lasers and is based on observation. The amount of distance hidden is again exactly identical to a calculation of drop on an earth curve calculator if the height were zero.

That tells us everything we need to know.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Stagiri on April 16, 2018, 11:30:11 AM
Now you appear to just be saying that at 3 miles the 2 foot high laser sees 9 feet of the boat, but that the boat is tilted enough by the curvature of the earth that the laser dot reaches 8 feet in altitude. I think we can all see your argument for what it is now.
You can see from the red line why the laser rises. The laser and ground start parallel but the ground slopes away, because the earth is a sphere
And you can see from the blue line that yes, the laser could hit the boat lower down but only by angling the laser downwards.

... I don't believe that the boat would be angled away by the curvature of the earth enough to cause that effect...

Well, maybe you shouldn't just believe and do some calculations.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 11:33:53 AM
Now you appear to just be saying that at 3 miles the 2 foot high laser sees 9 feet of the boat, but that the boat is tilted enough by the curvature of the earth that the laser dot reaches 8 feet in altitude. I think we can all see your argument for what it is now.
You can see from the red line why the laser rises. The laser and ground start parallel but the ground slopes away, because the earth is a sphere
And you can see from the blue line that yes, the laser could hit the boat lower down but only by angling the laser downwards.

I see what you are trying to argue, but I don't believe that the boat would be angled away by the curvature of the earth enough to cause that effect. The angle is very miniscule.

Well, you'll have to tell that to the earth curve calculator. To be honest, I haven't checked the maths. This really isn't a matter of belief, you can work it out.
I will try to do so.

I haven't looked at the 2nd experiment in as much detail. I will have a look.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 11:51:59 AM
Right. This is very rough, but...

(https://image.ibb.co/cgYCCS/Maths.jpg)

For speed I've assumed that AC = 3, the same as the distance travelled. This is not quite correct, 3 is actually the distance around the arc of the circle but the angle is so small that the error is negligible.

And I forgot to state that the 3959.00113... = BC, but it does because of Pythagorus.

So it is about 6 feet.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: xenotolerance on April 16, 2018, 02:37:51 PM
That tells us everything we need to know.

How?

You are rationalizing. You don't know what the writing process was. You don't know who was involved, or how they reached that figure. You don't know if it was pulled from the calculator, or if the pilot reported one number and the producers asked for a different one, or if the real figure was actually 24 feet.

Everything we need to know is: The helicopter disappears over the horizon from the bottom up. All your posts are, are obtuse derailing
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 02:45:13 PM
I see what you are trying to argue, but I don't believe that the boat would be angled away by the curvature of the earth enough to cause that effect. The angle is very miniscule.

Measuring the amount that objects angles away isn't even the stated goal of the experiment in the video.

Regardless, the second experiment does not use lasers and is based on observation. The amount of distance hidden is again exactly identical to a calculation of drop on an earth curve calculator if the height were zero.

That tells us everything we need to know.

The first experiment we've covered in some detail. The difference of 6 feet is borne out by a round earth, I've done the maths now and 6 feet is correct, see previous post. This really is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of geometry.
I and Stagirl have also explained why how much of the boat the laser can "see" is different from the height difference in where the laser hits the boat at the two distances if the laser starts parallel to the ground and the earth curves away. I have proven that laser height cancels out and doesn't change this difference. You really have no valid objection to the first experiment.

The second one. Honestly, I think the objection here may be more valid. I do think there is a possibility they have over-stated the height of the helicopter when he could see it, although I don't know whether the altimeter measures from the bottom of the helicopter and refraction may be a factor here. There is admittedly some doubt  and I agree the value being exactly 24 feet is suspicious. BUT...the fact is you CAN clearly see the helicopter disappear below a "hill" of water and then rise from behind it.

There is no other explanation for this other than the water bulges because of the curve of the earth. You attempted to explain this by the sinking ship effect or refraction but as someone else pointed out the former is an alleged effect when a ship is going away from you, not when something is dropping on the Y axis. And refraction would make things appear higher, not hide them.
You claim in your Bishop experiment that over a 20 mile expanse you can see people playing on the beach yet have provided no evidence. Here we have on video over 6 miles a whole helicopter is occluded by the bulge of the lake as it follows the earth's curve.

All you can really do is grow this slight seed of suspicion about the exact height of the helicopter into a full blown conspiracy about how the makers of the programme are lying about this for...reasons. I guess anything other than modify your beliefs, eh?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Obviously on April 16, 2018, 03:57:26 PM
Lol, thank you once again, AllAround, for demonstrating that Tom, like the rest of flerfers, struggles with diagrams and math. C’mon Tom, it’s embrarrasing - if you’re really as old as your picture suggests, it’s time to learn this stuff.

Meanwhile, neither he nor any other flatty has addressed the real issue at hand: objects disappear behind the horizon, and the FE myth has no explanation for it. Here’s another example, this time of our beautiful sun setting... yet again, the bottom half of it seems to be missing:

https://youtu.be/xiXK0HhzimQ

Where is it, Tom?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 16, 2018, 09:22:53 PM
Lol, thank you once again, AllAround, for demonstrating that Tom, like the rest of flerfers, struggles with diagrams and math.

It's pretty galling to have someone say things like:

AllAround doesn't even understand what is happening. His assessments, accusations, and conclusions on this forum are generally amateur and a big waste of my time.

When pretty much everyone else can see who the confused one is in this thread. He's spent the whole thread flailing around and misunderstanding pretty much everything and changing his argument as each of his objections have been destroyed.

He starts by standing behind Jerad's objections even though none of them stand up to any scrutiny.
He pretty much ignores all my analysis apart from going on to heroically misunderstand my proof about the laser height difference.
He then shows he doesn't even understand that experiment by saying:

Quote
They view from your red line and say that it reached a point where it should be if it originated from zero altitude. This is wrong in RET, and shows fraud.

Which is just a flat out lie, they absolutely don't say that in the video.
Finally Stagirl does a much better diagram than I did and Tom finally understands...so then he just says:

Quote
I don't believe that the boat would be angled away by the curvature of the earth enough to cause that effect.

As though geometry and maths is a belief system. So I've done the calculations for him which show that a difference of 6 feet is exactly what you'd expect and what was measured. I note he hasn't retracted his assertion that the experiment is fraudulent even though he now has no basis for that claim or that it's me who "doesn't even understand what is happening".

Trouble is, Tom has to believe this experiment is fraudulent or wrong in some way because if he accepts it then he has to accept that the earth is round, and he refuses to budge on that. His last hope is that maybe the helicopter wasn't as high as they claimed but even if that is true it still doesn't explain why the helicopter disappeared behind the horizon, there is no flat earth explanation for that. He made a couple of half-hearted attempts to but it was explained why those explanations really don't work.

So he's just left with shouting "PANTS ON FIRE!" with no basis and running away.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Obviously on April 16, 2018, 11:56:24 PM
Yea, I lol’ed at the "waste of time"! The FE hypothesis is the biggest waste of time imaginable. The only reason I’m participating in this debate is to find simple and indisputable arguments that would make it easier for others to see this silly "theory" for what it is.

Here’s another picture of the Chicago skyline:

https://i.imgur.com/JYrQ3OB_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

I live in this city by the way, and drove by all the buildings hidden from view by Earth’s curvature in this photo just this morning. I assure, they’re still standing. Why are they missing from this picture, Tom?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 17, 2018, 04:42:41 AM
Right. This is very rough, but...

(https://image.ibb.co/cgYCCS/Maths.jpg)

For speed I've assumed that AC = 3, the same as the distance travelled. This is not quite correct, 3 is actually the distance around the arc of the circle but the angle is so small that the error is negligible.

And I forgot to state that the 3959.00113... = BC, but it does because of Pythagorus.

So it is about 6 feet.

That's just a standard Pythagorean Theorem earth drop calculation that shows a 6 foot drop over 3 miles assuming an altitude of 0...

The same method is described here under the Pythagorean Theorem section: http://flatvsround.blogspot.com/2015/10/how-to-calculate-earths-curvature.html
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 17, 2018, 04:57:48 AM
The first experiment we've covered in some detail. The difference of 6 feet is borne out by a round earth, I've done the maths now and 6 feet is correct, see previous post. This really is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of geometry.

You are using an earth drop calculation. Over a distance of 3 miles, the earth drops 6 feet, assuming a height of 0. You used the Theorem of Pythagoras, the same method we use in places in our Wiki.

You can get the same thing by going to https://www.metabunk.org/curve/ and putting in 3 miles and 0 feet in height. You get 6 feet. This one is also based on Pythagorean Theory.

This method isn't finding the "tilt" of the boat due to Round Earth curvature. It is not based on the alternative approach you were trying to pursue.

Quote
I and Stagirl have also explained why how much of the boat the laser can "see" is different from the height difference in where the laser hits the boat at the two distances if the laser starts parallel to the ground and the earth curves away. I have proven that laser height cancels out and doesn't change this difference. You really have no valid objection to the first experiment.

I just did object. You copied a regular Theory of Pythagoras calculation that is used to find the drop. It's the same thing as the online calculator I've linked above.

Quote
The second one. Honestly, I think the objection here may be more valid. I do think there is a possibility they have over-stated the height of the helicopter when he could see it, although I don't know whether the altimeter measures from the bottom of the helicopter and refraction may be a factor here. There is admittedly some doubt  and I agree the value being exactly 24 feet is suspicious. BUT...the fact is you CAN clearly see the helicopter disappear below a "hill" of water and then rise from behind it.

The value being exactly 24 feet is vary suspicious, considering that is the value we get if we calculate for that distance and leave the observer height at 0.

Quote
All you can really do is grow this slight seed of suspicion about the exact height of the helicopter into a full blown conspiracy about how the makers of the programme are lying about this for...reasons. I guess anything other than modify your beliefs, eh?

It's pretty clear that the experiments were fraudulent to me. They didn't just come up with random numbers. They came up with numbers that would be the case if the observer height were 0. Fraud.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 17, 2018, 08:16:07 AM
That's just a standard Pythagorean Theorem earth drop calculation that shows a 6 foot drop over 3 miles assuming an altitude of 0...

The same method is described here under the Pythagorean Theorem section: http://flatvsround.blogspot.com/2015/10/how-to-calculate-earths-curvature.html
Yes. So. If the laser height was 0 feet then the two measured heights on the boat would have been 0 feet and 6 feet.
But the laser wasn't at 0 feet, it was about 2 feet. So the measured heights were 2 feet and 8 feet.
I have proved that so long as the laser is parallel to the ground the DIFFERENCE is the same regardless of laser height, if you still don't understand that proof then find someone better at math than you and get them to explain it to you. I shouldn't really need to explain that with a diagram, that is what parallel means.
I thought after Stagirl did a better version of the diagram I attempted you actually understood this.
You claimed that:

Quote
they say that it reached a point where it should be if it originated from zero altitude. This is wrong in RET, and shows fraud.

I asked you to point me to the bit of the video where they say that and you couldn't, because they don't. The second measurement is clearly much more than 6 feet off the water, the guy has to stand on the side of the boat and reach up to measure it. So what is your basis for claiming that the experiment is fraudulent?

Jerad claims that Stephen Hawking died years ago - too ridiculous to respond to.

He claims that the difference is 10 inches at 500 feet - his only basis for that is a rough estimate from a still and if he was correct then that extrapolates to 24 feet at 3 miles so clearly makes no sense.

He asks why you can see the laser when his own earth curve calculator shows that you should be able to given a viewer height of a couple of feet or more.

He claims that you can see the laser is angling upwards and "shooting off into space" but deliberately ignores perspective. Are these lamps shooting off into space or are they the same height?

(https://image.ibb.co/kCR61m/lampposts.jpg)

He then dishonestly uses that perspective angle to claim the lake must be tilting at a ridiculous angle.

He then claims the difference should have been 1 foot because they didn't take into account viewer height - I have proven this is incorrect and I think you have finally understood the difference between how much of the boat you can see and where the laser hits the boat if it is parallel to the ground and the ground curves away.

I don't know why you're talking about the tilt of the boat, how is that relevant?
There would be a very slight tilt of (3 / 24901) x 360 = 0.043 degrees (24901 being the circumference of earth)
This is not enough to make any significant difference to the calculation of 6 feet or where the laser would hit the boat.

So do you still have any objection to the first experiment?

The second experiment your only hope is that the height they give is incorrect which is possible but doesn't change the fact that the helicopter is disappearing behind a hill of water and rising from it, something your mate Rowbotham says doesn't happen. Where does it go?

You are so desperate to try and find any problem with this because it proves your world-view wrong. Your objections to the first experiment keep changing as I and others show them to to be spurious. Your problem is you don't understand this stuff anywhere near as well as you think you do. All your objections to the first experiment are either based on your own misunderstanding of what the experiment actually is or Jerad's craziness.

What exactly is the motive for fraud anyway?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Stagiri on April 17, 2018, 10:25:07 AM
For speed I've assumed that AC = 3, the same as the distance travelled. This is not quite correct, 3 is actually the distance around the arc of the circle but the angle is so small that the error is negligible.

I've calculated it correctly (assuming the Earth is a perfect sphere) and the difference is less than 0.35 milimeters.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on April 17, 2018, 12:15:34 PM
For speed I've assumed that AC = 3, the same as the distance travelled. This is not quite correct, 3 is actually the distance around the arc of the circle but the angle is so small that the error is negligible.

I've calculated it correctly (assuming the Earth is a perfect sphere) and the difference is less than 0.35 milimeters.
Wow. I'm impressed. I just looked again at Tom's last post and this comment

Quote
They came up with numbers that would be the case if the observer height were 0. Fraud.

He still doesn't understand that laser experiment.
And here's a thought, maybe if observations match calculations from a theory then it's because the theory is correct.
Just throwing that out there.

It's like calculating how long a body takes to fall from a certain height under gravity and then measuring it, finding the time matches the theory and then declaring that suspicious.

And it's a bit rich coming from someone who claims to have done an experiment where from 23 miles away across a bay he can see from 20 inches high the distant beach all the way down to the shoreline but has provided no evidence of that claim at all. That would also mean across a 23 mile stretch of water there is not a single wave more than 20 inches high in between him and the distant beach. I think it's clear who the fraud is here...
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Rama Set on April 17, 2018, 01:55:14 PM

It's pretty clear that the experiments were fraudulent to me. They didn't just come up with random numbers. They came up with numbers that would be the case if the observer height were 0. Fraud.

Saying fraud over and over again doesn't change the fact that you misunderstand the experiment.  The laser is a datum line and can be assumed to be at H=0.  This was shown to be mathematically true earlier in the thread which you have done nothing to rebut.  Perhaps you should try and actually engage the arguments instead of looking like the stereotype of what REers say FEers are?
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Stagiri on April 17, 2018, 02:22:06 PM
(...)
Quote
I and Stagirl have also explained why how much of the boat the laser can "see" is different from the height difference in where the laser hits the boat at the two distances if the laser starts parallel to the ground and the earth curves away. I have proven that laser height cancels out and doesn't change this difference. You really have no valid objection to the first experiment.

I just did object. You copied a regular Theory of Pythagoras calculation that is used to find the drop. It's the same thing as the online calculator I've linked above.
(...)

So what?

EDIT: By the way, I didn't use Pythagoras Theorem in my calculations and I got the same results.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Obviously on April 18, 2018, 01:56:34 AM
Some more examples of the sun half-hidden behind the horizon:

https://videohive.net/item/sun-setting-into-sea-2/12872236

https://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-photos-sun-setting-behind-sea-horizon-image7802608

http://www.freestockphotos.biz/stockphoto/17849

Where, oh where did the bottom half of the sun go?





Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Sturmlied on April 22, 2018, 02:17:00 PM
One of the effects of mass is that it attracts other mass. For small objects, like your computer, your car, and even a building, the force of gravity is tiny. But when you have millions, and even trillions of tonnes of mass, the effect of the gravity really builds up. All of the mass pulls on all the other mass, and it tries to create the most efficient shape… a sphere.

How can I verify this myself?

Try the Cavendish Experiment. The modern versions of it are not to difficult but you need a bit of equipment.
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: Obviously on May 10, 2018, 05:04:15 AM
Found a wonderful experiment with photos and all to once again confirm everything I posted, check it out: https://www.metabunk.org/stand-up-to-detect-the-curve-of-the-earth.t8364/

Flat-heads: there’s no point in debating anything else here. This alone completely destroys the FE hypothesis. Admit it, you bastards :)

With love,

Obviously
Title: Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
Post by: JohnAdams1145 on May 10, 2018, 05:34:48 AM
One of the effects of mass is that it attracts other mass. For small objects, like your computer, your car, and even a building, the force of gravity is tiny. But when you have millions, and even trillions of tonnes of mass, the effect of the gravity really builds up. All of the mass pulls on all the other mass, and it tries to create the most efficient shape… a sphere.

How can I verify this myself?

Try the Cavendish Experiment. The modern versions of it are not to difficult but you need a bit of equipment.

It's harder than you think. If any of the balls are charged in any way, then it could be simply explained as a result of that.