The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« on: February 12, 2018, 10:34:49 PM »
...it's actually very simple, folks! It's usually the first thing that most flerfers try to dismiss (the way they do with everything else that resembles science, knowledge, facts, observations, etc.). The ships! Ok fine, not just ships, but really any object THE BOTTOM HALF OF WHICH IS HIDDEN BELOW THE HORIZON.

In trying to find something that can only be explained on a spherical Earth, I keep coming back to the same phenomenon: how objects disappear below the horizon. Right away I want to point out that all of those FE videos that supposedly bring ships back from beyond the horizon are completely missing the point: it’s not just about whether or not something disappears, it’s the fact that objects consistently disappear bottom first! It doesn’t matter what the object is (ship, building, the sun, etc.) - when it hides behind the horizon, it always does so bottom to top. I have not seen a single video or photo that shows otherwise, and none of the FE videos show anything like the bottom of the object reappearing when you zoom in. I'm sure most flerfers reading this will want to yell "perspective", but if you dig even a little deeper, it really does not explain anything... I mean, aside from things disappearing below the horizon, when have you seen anything seem to all of a sudden lose its bottom half as it moves away from you? What we actually see is that any object, no matter what shape or size, gradually gets smaller and smaller as the distance increases, eventually turning into a tiny blurry dot before it disappears completely. I claim, therefore, that on a flat earth we should see objects get smaller and disappear into blurry dots as they move away from us beyond the horizon, and the only possible explanation for the phenomenon we actually observe is that the curvature of our planet is physically blocking the bottom portion of the object in question from our view as it moves further away from us. To stay as objective as possible, I am ready to hear and be convinced by any convincing explanation of this from the side of the FE hypothesis. Accompanying pictures/videos/sketches would be highly appreciated. I’ve searched the internet, read many articles and comments, watched some videos, and could not find anything...

ACTUAL FACTS - PART 1:

Please watch the following videos carefully and honestly tell me if you think it would be possible to observe this on a flat earth, and if so, how:







As I mentioned, it’s not just ships. Here’s the same phenomenon with the Chicago skyline as viewed from Michigan

1. Take a look at these photos: https://joshuanowicki.smugmug.com/Looking-toward-Chicago-from-Mi/i-XVkLwR4 notice how the bottom half of the city is completely and consistently missing from all the shots, despite all the variables (e.g. humidity, temperature, lighting, elevation of the camera, atmospheric refraction and diffraction, etc.)
2. And here is how to properly calculate how much of the building should be hidden from view by Earth’s curvature: https://www.metabunk.org/curve/ AND https://www.quora.com/Chicago-is-59-miles-from-the-opposite-shore-of-Lake-Michigan-Given-the-earth%E2%80%99s-curvature-it-should-be-2320-feet-below-the-horizon-How-can-it-be-seen/answer/C-Stuart-Hardwick?srid=739d …as I hope you can see, this is in line with all the pictures and everything we’ve seen having actually lived in Chicago.. Here’s the normal skyline for reference, in case you’re starting to forget :) https://www.flickr.com/photos/yochicago1/7988970693

Here is the same phenomenon occurring with some towers near Tel Aviv:

And of course the same thing happens with the sun at every sunrise and sunset (do I really need to post videos of this? surely even the FE'ers amongst us have seen a proper sunset over water at some point)

What possible explanation can the FE side have here?

ACTUAL FACTS - PART 2:

And here is what it looks like when an object actually moves very far away from us, as opposed to being blocked by the Earth:


Notice how the rocket gradually turns into a dot. This clearly demonstrates the concept of “vanishing point” (according to google, it’s “the point at which something that has been growing smaller or increasingly faint disappears altogether”). Notice, nothing gets cut in half here. You can surely observe the same thing by launching your drone very high up - it turns into a dot, doesn’t it? Simply put, when objects move far away from us they get smaller and fainter until we simply can’t see them anymore - would you agree? This is not what we see with the sun, ships, buildings, or anything else that disappears behind the horizon. And the whole “perspective” thing just doesn’t hold any water here: just think of what you see at the end of a very long corridor - a blurry point! You would never see just the top half (the ceiling?) with the bottom half disappearing; instead, everything just gets smaller and blurrier. Another great example of this is all the distant stats and galaxies looking like tiny dots in the sky. Here’s a wonderful animation demonstrating this concept with the moon: (start at 2:41, although I hope the flerfers here watch the entire video ASAP) What are your arguments against this?

Again, flatties like to suggest that this kind of a phenomenon is somehow a function of distance and perspective. Think of any truly distant object. For example, the ISS! It’s in orbit ~254 miles above us. Here’s a picture of it passing in front of the moon: https://mk0spaceflightnoa02a.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/ISS-closeup.jpg And here’s a picture of it passing in front of the sun during the solar eclipse: https://media.fox5ny.com/media.fox5ny.com/photo/2017/08/21/ECLIPSEISS3_1503346866006_3949527_ver1.0_640_360.jpg — notice, the whole entire thing is in view. Its bottom half is not cut off, despite all the distance. Keep in mind that on average, the horizon is only about 3-4 miles away from us! Perhaps you’ll say that we don’t know the actual distance the ISS is away from us, and we can’t trust NASA — but come on, whatever the actual distance, obviously it’s further away than just 3-4 miles. This proves that the phenomenon in question has nothing to do with distance, and has everything to do with the Earth itself blocking objects from view.

To sum it up, it is an indisputable fact that when objects are hidden below the horizon, their bottom portion is hidden first. The RE model (i.e. reality) offers a simple explanation for this, whereas the FE hypothesis has nothing.

I am hoping that some of the FE believers reading this can comprehend the information with an open mind instead of rejecting it immediately because it doesn't fit into their belief systems. Perhaps Mr. Tom Bishop can honor us with something more than just a sentence of dismissal. Sorry Tom, I don't think anyone takes you seriously anymore when you use the word "perspective" in every answer (or when you re-post the same silly youtube video that completely butchers basic concepts) -- you'll have to try harder than that. Let's see if we can get an actual debate going this time? Like where you address everything that's being posted, not just one random statement that you get to pick.


Offline Sydney

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 05:23:07 AM »
The answer to your question regarding the object receding on the surface of water is refraction. You have several factors involved. Here is a video to explain (go to about 3:14 to see my point)



So your argument is based upon what you see from the lenses of your own eyes, and perhaps you omit what is going on between your eyes and the object... the light and the water and temperature of the gases surrounding you. The point in the video aptly explains how an object on a flat surface disappears from the bottom up as it recedes in the distance. I do not how how else to make any more simpler than that.

The water in the atmosphere acts as a lens... more so if you are viewing parallel to the surface of the earth and get closer to the surface of the earth. So you are seeing an object through the lenses of your own eyes... through the refractory lens effect of the atmosphere... and this must be taken into consideration.

Regarding the so-called space ship receding from you outwardly, you will not have the refractory effect going on. The object will recede and get smaller and vanish. Your eyes are cameras. They can only handle so much.

Respect!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 05:27:00 AM by Sydney »

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2018, 04:19:53 PM »
Sorry, that doesn’t really explain anything. Yes, atmospheric refraction and looming are real phenomena, but they don’t have nearly as much of an effect as you’re trying to ascribe to them. The fact that the bottom parts of all objects disappear so consistently easily shows this. Saying that the atmosphere acts as a lens is one the many non-answers flatties like to use to dismiss evidence and allow themselves not to examine the real world more closely.

In your video you are using a very specific type of lens — do you really think all the random gases in the atmosphere consistently combine to form this kind of lens? Any tiny variation would completely change the picture.

And of course, to completely destroy your argument: notice that in your video the sun changes in size as it moves closer and further away, which is not at all what we observe in the real world (because the sun is way further away that flerfers like to admit)! This is another easy way to disprove the FE lies, thanks for reminding us :)

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2018, 01:53:11 AM »
One of the effects of mass is that it attracts other mass. For small objects, like your computer, your car, and even a building, the force of gravity is tiny. But when you have millions, and even trillions of tonnes of mass, the effect of the gravity really builds up. All of the mass pulls on all the other mass, and it tries to create the most efficient shape… a sphere.

How can I verify this myself?
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

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Offline StapleBattery

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2018, 01:19:51 PM »
I give this thread approximately 3 days
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 01:28:39 PM by TheLordBarst »
You just made my list, buddy.  >:(
this world does not have room for another mind as intelligent as yours.

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Offline junker

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2018, 03:21:39 PM »
I give this thread approximately 3 days

Keep the non-contributing memes out of the upper fora, please.
Wait, is Thork gay or does he just have a thing for lipstick?

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2018, 01:51:52 AM »
im pretty new to the flat earth but i believe it is to do with large "ice walls" that surround the flat earth you may want to refer to some research on these "ice walls". this could be wrong as i am new to this.

By simple curiosity, why do you believe the flat earth theory?
This is not a game or an activity. Being "new to this" doesn't make any sense. Either you believe it or you don't.

Also, you do realize that the "ice walls" thing is actually from the round earth theory? (Most) everyone says that Antarctica surrounds the flat earth, but did you know that the flat earth map is actually a 2D projection of the round earth? So, if you believe that the round earth theory is fake, then the map of the flat earth is completely wrong... Just saying.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 01:55:26 AM by wRadion »
Questions not yet answered by a FE:
- Why would "they" lie to us?
- Don't you think "they" would have tried to shut down the FES if this was a "dark secret"?
- Can you explain why "they" would spent so much money and time on spacial researches/accessories/ vehicles and actors, books, teachers, online images, toys, maps, schools just for a prank?
- "I wanna be an astronaut!" *proceed* Government: "sry lol space is clozed u cant go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

Offline Ratboy

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2018, 02:08:33 PM »
I see that the whole problem with the model demonstration is that even though light bends downward when passing from air to water, it bends upwards passing from water to air.  So for the sun to be staying above the horizon all the time and we just think it is setting we would have to live underwater.  I can use the same argument of the video by saying that scientists have concluded that not only is there a lot of water in the atmosphere, there is also a lot of air, actually more air than water.  So the light should bend upward.  And it does.  That is why sunsets actually last a little longer than they should.  Well it has nothing to do with the water vapour, just the curvature of the atmosphere acts like a lens so we can see the sun a little longer even though it has dropped just below the horizon.  So the opposite to the video is what is seen.  If we like to practice Zetetic principles, we should conclude the earth is round, not flat.

Offline Ratboy

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2018, 02:14:39 PM »
I see that the whole problem with the model demonstration is that even though light bends downward when passing from air to water, it bends upwards passing from water to air.  So for the sun to be staying above the horizon all the time and we just think it is setting we would have to live underwater.  I can use the same argument of the video by saying that scientists have concluded that not only is there a lot of water in the atmosphere, there is also a lot of air, actually more air than water.  So the light should bend upward.  And it does.  That is why sunsets actually last a little longer than they should.  Well it has nothing to do with the water vapour, just the curvature of the atmosphere acts like a lens so we can see the sun a little longer even though it has dropped just below the horizon.  So the opposite to the video is what is seen.  If we like to practice Zetetic principles, we should conclude the earth is round, not flat.
I will just add that for people who want to follow Zetetic principles, the sunset will last about 3 minutes longer than it should if there was no atmosphere (even with water vapour present).  So it will take a little bit of accuracy to measure this.

Offline Ratboy

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2018, 04:19:24 PM »
I think one of the easiest examples here to see and does not require living by a coast is to watch the full moon.  It is always facing you.  The only way for this to happen for everyone everywhere no matter if the moon is on the horizon or directly overhead, is for us to be turning on a sphere and for the moon to be very far away.  If you want to be a Rowbotham and ignore other people in the world, you can believe the moon turns to face just you, but if you acknowledge that there really are other people in the world that matter, you cannot stick to the FE idea.  Zetetic principles require it.

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2018, 04:25:53 PM »
I think one of the easiest examples here to see and does not require living by a coast is to watch the full moon.  It is always facing you.  The only way for this to happen for everyone everywhere no matter if the moon is on the horizon or directly overhead, is for us to be turning on a sphere and for the moon to be very far away.  If you want to be a Rowbotham and ignore other people in the world, you can believe the moon turns to face just you, but if you acknowledge that there really are other people in the world that matter, you cannot stick to the FE idea.  Zetetic principles require it.
Actually this is another location where they invoke their perspective 'rule'. Anytime you have a visual oddity, simply assume they've decided it's perspective and you won't be too far off.

Offline Ratboy

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2018, 03:09:51 AM »
I think one of the easiest examples here to see and does not require living by a coast is to watch the full moon.  It is always facing you.  The only way for this to happen for everyone everywhere no matter if the moon is on the horizon or directly overhead, is for us to be turning on a sphere and for the moon to be very far away.  If you want to be a Rowbotham and ignore other people in the world, you can believe the moon turns to face just you, but if you acknowledge that there really are other people in the world that matter, you cannot stick to the FE idea.  Zetetic principles require it.
Actually this is another location where they invoke their perspective 'rule'. Anytime you have a visual oddity, simply assume they've decided it's perspective and you won't be too far off.
I am not sure they are saying that if a car is far enough away when it approaches you that you will see the undercarriage and not the headlights.  Then you see the undercarriage as it drives over you and as it races away, you do not see the taillights, but you still see the undercarriage. And everyone else watching it, no matter where they are, only see the undercarriage, and not the passenger side or driver side. That is some wacky perspective.

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2018, 10:20:56 AM »
More proof of the same thing. No way flat-heads can explain this.

Wake up, people: this is all the proof that is necessary. These pictures completely destroy FE "theory" (whoever called it a theory obviously wasn't familiar with the actual meaning of the term).
Unfortunately, they do have an "explanation" for these photos. It's one of their "heads I win, tails you lose" pieces of reasoning. The conversation goes something like

RE: Ships sink hull first as they go over the horizon because of the curve of the earth
FE: Rowbotham proved that the hull can be restored by use of a telescope
[I never understand why Tom keeps saying Rowbotham "proved" things, Rowbotham simply claimed things which is very different]
RE: All optical zoom does is make things bigger and clearer, if the hull is over the horizon then no zoom will restore it. Look at this picture.
FE: That's waves.
RE: What?
FE: Waves in between you and the ship/building. You know, like how a dime can hide an elephant.
RE: But...you literally just said that it wasn't things going over the horizon and they could be restored using a telescope!
FE: Yes, but...LOOK OVER THERE! *runs away*
FE: (to other FErs) We won another one! *high fives all round*

I meant to write a post showing how the waves argument was, frankly, bullshit. Haven't got around to it yet. but it's fairly obvious from this video that the waves are fairly consistent as the video is all taken on the same afternoon, so the only possibility is the building is occluded by the curve of the earth.

If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline jimbob

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2018, 02:46:32 PM »
So you ban people for producing evidence the Earth is round. Dont you think that is a bit below the belt in a discussion forum.
Here are a couple more examples of the same thing:

https://farm1.static.flickr.com/37/124639197_6d8031f5f0.jpg?v=0


Was there something about the last warning you didn't understand? Since you are on repeated warnings and 2 bans already, have a month off to review the rules again.

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Offline junker

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2018, 03:04:02 PM »
So you ban people for producing evidence the Earth is round.

No. I would suggest maybe applying some critical thinking before making baseless assumptions in the future. Also, if you want to discuss the rules, or the policy on how warnings and bans are issued, take it to the Suggestions & Concerns forum. It only serves to further derail the thread.
Wait, is Thork gay or does he just have a thing for lipstick?

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2018, 06:32:34 PM »
I read recently that flat earthers generally don’t accept photo or video evidence, so this is for those of you who are not paranoid enough to think that NASA is busy cranking out fake videos and photoshopped pictures of earth, and that billions of petabytes of various media from other professional organizations and amateur videos are also somehow fake:



This yet again demonstrates the same idea I described above, but this time with cool lasers, boats, and even a helicopter.

Can we hear even a single objection or criticism of the undisuputable evidence presented in this thread?

To all other sane people here: this is really the only argument that matters if you think about it, and it’s the simplest one. I think the fact that there are no FE explanations for the phenomena described above is all we need to know that FE "theory" is a hoax. I think we should all ask Tom and Pete to comment here and say what they really think without evading the evidence shown.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2018, 07:08:36 PM »
I read recently that flat earthers generally don’t accept photo or video evidence, so this is for those of you who are not paranoid enough to think that NASA is busy cranking out fake videos and photoshopped pictures of earth, and that billions of petabytes of various media from other professional organizations and amateur videos are also somehow fake:



This yet again demonstrates the same idea I described above, but this time with cool lasers, boats, and even a helicopter.

Can we hear even a single objection or criticism of the undisuputable evidence presented in this thread?

To all other sane people here: this is really the only argument that matters if you think about it, and it’s the simplest one. I think the fact that there are no FE explanations for the phenomena described above is all we need to know that FE "theory" is a hoax. I think we should all ask Tom and Pete to comment here and say what they really think without evading the evidence shown.

Jeran covered this one:

« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 07:10:44 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2018, 07:21:16 PM »
Jeran covered this one:

Please summarise, or make some relevant point about the content of the video you're quoting. Don't just link to the video and name the author. I've seen the moderator take issue with that approach.
==============================
==============================
Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2018, 01:05:06 AM »
Seriously, wtf Tom? First, that’s really all you have to say in response to this entire thread? Second, I wasted about 2-3 min of my life watching various segments of this ridiculous video you posted, and it seemed to be all about insulting and disrespecting Professor Stephen Hawking. You really expect any intelligent person to watch this crap? Which part of it is so important and relevant to this discussion? Can you answer ANY of the questions I brought up earlier?

Re: The ultimate proof that the Earth is ROUND...
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2018, 08:36:55 AM »
What a horrible video, Tom.
Massively disrespectful of Stephen Hawking
There's an interview here with someone who actually knows what they're talking about on ALS
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stephen-hawking-als/

The video starts with the assertion that Stephen Hawking died years ago and was replaced...I just have no idea why anyone would have done that. That would had to have happened way before Hawking even became famous and his life is so well documented that it is a completely ridiculous claim. That right there should tell you this bloke is off the charts crazy and the rest of his opinions should be regarded with some suspicion.

I did watch most of the video so I could sensibly respond.

Just before 9 minutes he says something about the laser going into space because of the angle of it - interesting how selectively you guys use perspective which is clearly the explanation here.

10 minutes he draws the laser at a ridiculous angle. You can't see that on the video and even if he's claiming the laser is not parallel to the ground the angle can't be anywhere near that steep to only appear 6 feet above the boat at 3 miles.

15 minutes he does some straw manning about Eratosthenes being called the best scientist ever because he was getting the results that "they" wanted.
Who are "they"? And why would "they" want any particular result? We're talking about thousands of years ago. Why would "they" want to hide the true shape of the earth?

So where did the helicopter go? He says how ridiculous it is that it would be behind a hill of water but provides no alternative explanation. Please don't say waves, the lake was clearly very calm. At 24 minutes he states that water doesn't curve and doesn't hide helicopters. He declares it as ludicrous but offers no other explanation

At 25 minutes he talks says that when people lie they have a reason but provides no theory as to why scientists would be lying about this.
He says observations show earth to be the centre of things with no examples of observations that do.

He then berates a certain scientist for doing no experiments. That reminds me of someone...


In brief, it's the standard flat earth response to being proved wrong. Shout fake at anything which shows you to be wrong.
Summed up by this Wiki page.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Place_of_the_Conspiracy_in_FET

Quote
P1) If personally unverifiable evidence contradicts an obvious truth then the evidence is fabricated
P2) The Flat Earth is an obvious truth

Case closed. The initial video proves a globe earth ergo it must be fake. No explanation required. Lazy...
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.