[Yaakov ben Avraham]

If I knew the answers on the morality or the lack thereof of slavery among the Jews, I'd be a f-----g genius, & probably the President. As far as the number, if you take 600,000 men, besides women & children, most scholars give a number @ the Exodus of app. 2 million. Obviously the use of the term 'day' can't mean anything literal when there is no Sun! I think I'm being quite historical about Genesis when I say that the 1st few creative days could have been of any length, as there was no Sun.

[Alchemist21]

Well, the Sun was literally Day 1 in Genesis, so. . .

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

No, it wasn't. Reread Genesis for me.

[DuckDodgers]

It would make more sense that the length of the days before the Sun were created were the same length of days as after it was created. 

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

If the definition of a day is how long it takes Earth to revolve on her axis such that all sides of her receive light from the Sun than day's length is determined by how long that takes. Before the sun existed, some other motive force must have been in play, rendering the definition, & likely the time scale, different.

[spank86]

If the definition of a day is how long it takes Earth to revolve on her axis such that all sides of her receive light from the Sun than day's length is determined by how long that takes. Before the sun existed, some other motive force must have been in play, rendering the definition, & likely the time scale, different.

well given that god created night and day before the sun it makes sense that the Jews believe that the two were interlinked but not related and that the day prior to the sun was the same length.

[Rama Set]

The fact of the matter is that Yaakov is applying two different set of criteria to his Torah reading based on how he wants his world view to appear. His genesis reading is subject to a reinterpretation of facts in metaphorical contexts which he tweaks until a realistic timeline is achieved. For exodus, it is all literal.

The deeper problem is that he is verifying the truth of the Torah with the Torah. Not much you can say to a person like that.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

The Torah is either true or it is not . Your choice is a bit binary, really. Is there some indication from outside the Torah of the truth of the Torah? Insofar as there is historical proof that the Hebrews entered Canaan in both peaceful & conquering waves, yes. Insofar as there were disturbances in Egypt that are indicative of social unrest, yes. Could that social unrest have been a slave revolt, yes. Was it? Not enough data to tell, if you ignore the Torah as a source of info. I see no reason to do so, any more than I would ignore any other 1st hand source. Obviously, I do believe Moses wrote the Torah, rather than the 4 Source Theory of modern liberal biblical scholarship. So there you are.

[Roundy]

The Torah is either true or it is not . Your choice is a bit binary, really.

Um... no, that's not the case at all.  It is not in any way outside the realm of reason or logic that parts of the Torah are true and parts aren't.  Otherwise we can apply that exact same reasoning to the New Testament as well, which I'm sure you recognize is pretty problematic to your argument.  In fact it is the norm for folk stories (which is all the Torah is really) to contain a kernel of truth.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Roundy, your argument only holds true IF you believe that the Torah was written, edited, redacted, & so-forth, the way modern liberal biblical scholarship says it was. I reject that whole theory. If, as Traditional Judaism teaches, Moses wrote the Torah, aside from the last 8 verses of Deuteronomy (written by Joshua), then either Moses was truthful or he was a liar. He can't be partly right & partly wrong. If you believe in modern liberal biblical scholarship, then this whole conversation is pointless, as we are proceeding from 2 different premisses that cannot possibly bring us to the same conclusion. I think you understand my point well. I disagree w/ you, but I'm not such a fool as to question your intellect. The NT was written by 9 authors, the Torah by 1. Each of those 9 had different purposes for writing. How are we to know they were complimentary purposes? Moses would hardly have wanted to be uncomplimentary to himself. He does repeat himself. He does emphasise different points while doing so. But I

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

haven't yet seen him outright contradict himself. I'm sure some raging liberal is going to try & prove me wrong there. Well, feel free. But the Sages & Rabbis of Blessed Memory have been dealing w/ issues like this for somewhat over 4000 yrs. I don't think its a problem, even if I don't have all the answers, & I admit, I don't. I would recommend before confronting me on any supposed contradictions in Torah, you look in a topical guide to the Talmud & other texts of Jewish wisdom first. If that doesn't work, consult a knowledgeable Rabbi or Cantor.

[Roundy]

Roundy, your argument only holds true IF you believe that the Torah was written, edited, redacted, & so-forth, the way modern liberal biblical scholarship says it was. I reject that whole theory. If, as Traditional Judaism teaches, Moses wrote the Torah, aside from the last 8 verses of Deuteronomy (written by Joshua), then either Moses was truthful or he was a liar. He can't be partly right & partly wrong. If you believe in modern liberal biblical scholarship, then this whole conversation is pointless, as we are proceeding from 2 different premisses that cannot possibly bring us to the same conclusion. I think you understand my point well. I disagree w/ you, but I'm not such a fool as to question your intellect. The NT was written by 9 authors, the Torah by 1. Each of those 9 had different purposes for writing. How are we to know they were complimentary purposes? Moses would hardly have wanted to be uncomplimentary to himself. He does repeat himself. He does emphasise different points while doing so. But I

haven't yet seen him outright contradict himself. I'm sure some raging liberal is going to try & prove me wrong there. Well, feel free. But the Sages & Rabbis of Blessed Memory have been dealing w/ issues like this for somewhat over 4000 yrs. I don't think its a problem, even if I don't have all the answers, & I admit, I don't. I would recommend before confronting me on any supposed contradictions in Torah, you look in a topical guide to the Talmud & other texts of Jewish wisdom first. If that doesn't work, consult a knowledgeable Rabbi or Cantor.

None of this invalidates my point.  It may be your point of view that the Torah is 100% written by a man who may not have even existed and therefore must be 100% true or 100% false (which you haven't really supported with anything approaching logic... but whatever) but your statement was that Rama Set (and I assume everyone who argues with you on this) had only two choices (quote "Your choice is a bit binary, really") and obviously that is not the case, as you seem to have just acknowledged.  And to boot, you are continuing to validate the truth of the Torah with the Torah, which is what Rama ultimately accused you of doing.  The New Testament is just as valid a work as the Torah is using any objective criteria you wish to apply.  It is the affirmed testimony of four individuals whose trustworthiness we have no more reason to deny than that of Moses, recounting events that were witnessed by thousands of people.  As long as you continue simply being subjective on the matter you are doing nothing but affirming your own biased opinion on the matter with your own biased opinions on the matter, and there's really no point in attempting to debate with someone who does nothing but metaphorically put his fingers in his ears and make a raspberry sound.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Actually, the NT was written by 9 different people, the Torah by 1. The 9 all wrote between 36 CE (the crucifixion of Jesus) & 98 CE (the death of John). I don't dispute whether Jesus rose again or not. Its irrelevant. The Jewish Messiah will be a human born in the usual way & will re-establish the Temple & the Davidic Kingdom, & usher in an era of eternal peace. Jesus didn't do this. Ergo, he is not the Messiah. All this virgin birth business & dying & rising saving god figure is pure paganism. I don't care how many lepers Jesus healed, or blind & deaf he made see & hear. He didn't do what the Messiah must do. Ergo, he isn't. If someone wants to worship a Jewish Rabbi & call him God, that's their perogative, but don't tell me its as valid as Torah Observant Judaism. As far as Moses never existing, Jesus the Rabbi would have disagreed w/ you. & assuming Torah to have been written by 1 person, it can't be part right & part wrong. Either Moses told the truth or he didn't.

[jroa]

Why can't it be part right and part wrong?  What if it was a phone book that we were talking about?  Can the phone book be part right and part wrong, or does it have to be all right or all wrong as well?

[spank86]

assuming Torah to have been written by 1 person, it can't be part right & part wrong. Either Moses told the truth or he didn't.

Quite a lot of non fiction books written by one person have turned out to be part right and part wrong.

If he was writing to reveal the truth he could have made mistakes and if writing to lie he would add truth in so people would believe.

[Rama Set]

As far as Moses never existing, Jesus the Rabbi would have disagreed w/ you. & assuming Torah to have been written by 1 person, it can't be part right & part wrong. Either Moses told the truth or he didn't.

Why can't Moses tell the truth when it is expedient and lie when it is expedient?  People do this all the time.  On what basis are you assuming that Moses is the sole author of the Torah?  Because the Torah said so?

[Roundy]

Actually, the NT was written by 9 different people, the Torah by 1. The 9 all wrote between 36 CE (the crucifixion of Jesus) & 98 CE (the death of John). I don't dispute whether Jesus rose again or not. Its irrelevant. The Jewish Messiah will be a human born in the usual way & will re-establish the Temple & the Davidic Kingdom, & usher in an era of eternal peace. Jesus didn't do this. Ergo, he is not the Messiah. All this virgin birth business & dying & rising saving god figure is pure paganism. I don't care how many lepers Jesus healed, or blind & deaf he made see & hear. He didn't do what the Messiah must do. Ergo, he isn't. If someone wants to worship a Jewish Rabbi & call him God, that's their perogative, but don't tell me its as valid as Torah Observant Judaism. As far as Moses never existing, Jesus the Rabbi would have disagreed w/ you. & assuming Torah to have been written by 1 person, it can't be part right & part wrong. Either Moses told the truth or he didn't.

Interesting.  Now you are invalidating the New Testament using the New Testament.  And presenting no less a subjective, biased viewpoint than before.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Much of this argument is  centered on how much credit a person gives Moses, & one other point I think is being overlooked, but can't be quantified. Was Moses a man of God, guided by God in what he  wrote & did? I believe he was. What he taught is in harmony w/ later Judaic thoughts on various subjects. The authors of the Writings, those books of a historical nature in the Hebrew Bible, & whose facts can be verified by non-biblical sources, prove that. So no, a man guided by God would neither lie nor make mistakes. As for Jesus, the NT is irrelevant. He didn't do what the Messiah is expected to do. Ergo, he is not the Messiah. There is no record, whether NT or otherwise, that shows Jesus as the Messiah. I'm not invalidating the NT. Doing so would serve no purpose. I'm simply invalidating Jesus' claim to be Messiah by observing that in late 2013, there is no Temple, no Davidic Kingdom, & no worldwide peace. Now, if you believe in the National Covenant @ Sinai (which is mentioned throughout the Hebrew Bible, NOT

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

just in Torah), then you have to believe that God guided the People through the Exodus & settlement in Canaan. The later books of the Hebrew Bible all look back  to the events of Torah & validate them from a historical perspective. There's not much more to be said than this, really.

[spank86]

Much of this argument is  centered on how much credit a person gives Moses, & one other point I think is being overlooked, but can't be quantified. Was Moses a man of God, guided by God in what he  wrote & did? I believe he was. What he taught is in harmony w/ later Judaic thoughts on various subjects.

of course it is. He laid the foundation and the later thoughts build upon it. They'd have looked pretty stupid if they went against their own holy book.