Poll

What Religion are you?

Jewish
1 (1.9%)
Muslim
0 (0%)
Hindu
0 (0%)
Buddhist
0 (0%)
Other
2 (3.8%)
Theist
1 (1.9%)
Folk Religions
2 (3.8%)
Deist
6 (11.3%)
Christian
10 (18.9%)
None (Atheism)
31 (58.5%)

Total Members Voted: 44

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #360 on: December 28, 2013, 01:14:00 PM »
No, they were smart. Anytime they needed to go against their holy book, they added a passage with a divine command and voilà! They could commit genocide and it was fully justified.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #361 on: December 28, 2013, 01:17:50 PM »
just in Torah), then you have to believe that God guided the People through the Exodus & settlement in Canaan. The later books of the Hebrew Bible all look back  to the events of Torah & validate them from a historical perspective. There's not much more to be said than this, really.

So the Torah is validated by subsequent texts written with the Torah in mind?  This is exactly what I would expect and in no way validates the historicity of the Torah. I thought you had a masters degree in this stuff.  All that shows is that there is a valid framework that extends from the Torah, not that the Torah is in and of itself valid.
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Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #362 on: December 28, 2013, 02:16:50 PM »
I have an MA in Renaissance British History, not Ancient Jewish Studies. But, the point that I am attempting to make (& either I'm not doing a good job of it or my interlocutors are just dense; I'll go w/ the 1st option for now) is that, @ a point in the historical development of the Bible where it can be validated by non-biblical sources, we find a nation that was observing Torah. Of course, we are beginning to find evidence of Torah as well (social unrest in Egypt & Hebrew entry into Canaan about the time of the Exodus) outside of the Bible. I've personally got no doubt that further research will validate the Torah. & I would LOVE to see evidence that the Torah was tampered w/ to justify 'genocide'. It seems to me to be historic fact that the nations (cities, really) that were displaced were asking for it due to abominable practices such as child human sacrifice & other delightful activities.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 02:30:44 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Offline spank86

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #363 on: December 28, 2013, 03:13:04 PM »
It seems to me to be historic fact that the nations (cities, really) that were displaced were asking for it due to abominable practices such as child human sacrifice & other delightful activities.



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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #364 on: December 28, 2013, 04:34:25 PM »
I have an MA in Renaissance British History, not Ancient Jewish Studies. But, the point that I am attempting to make (& either I'm not doing a good job of it or my interlocutors are just dense; I'll go w/ the 1st option for now) is that, @ a point in the historical development of the Bible where it can be validated by non-biblical sources, we find a nation that was observing Torah. Of course, we are beginning to find evidence of Torah as well (social unrest in Egypt & Hebrew entry into Canaan about the time of the Exodus) outside of the Bible. I've personally got no doubt that further research will validate the Torah. & I would LOVE to see evidence that the Torah was tampered w/ to justify 'genocide'. It seems to me to be historic fact that the nations (cities, really) that were displaced were asking for it due to abominable practices such as child human sacrifice & other delightful activities.

Would your professors praise you or criticize you for asserting the validity of a historical account without any corroberation, because that is what you do with the Torah. I am not sure where you are getting the impression that I ever doubted that there was a historical period where Hebrews followed the Torah, I have never done so. I have consistently challenged your claims of the historical accuracy of the narratives in the Torah, specifically those sealing with supernatural miracles and revelations. I would also say you are on shaky ground when you claim social unrest in Egypt is due to the Hebrew Exodus. It seems logical and obvious that there could be a number of reasons for this completely independent of the Hebrews.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #365 on: December 28, 2013, 04:38:14 PM »
It seems to me to be historic fact that the nations (cities, really) that were displaced were asking for it due to abominable practices such as child human sacrifice & other delightful activities.




Nevermind that there is nothing historical about the notion of "asking for it" or that Hebrews required punishment for a disobedient child was death according to the Torah.
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Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #366 on: December 28, 2013, 05:59:57 PM »
As historians, we know the following: 1. There was a point in history of social unrest in Egypt. 2. @ app. that time & for several years after, the Hebrews were entering Canaan in a combination of waves of peaceful settlement & military aggression, many of them from Egypt. 3. These events took place during plausible times that the Biblical Exodus could have occurred. 4. @ app. that same time period, an event or events occurred which welded the disparate Hebrew tribes together as a distinct ethno-politico-religious group. 5. After that welding, they began to follow Torah. These 5 things are fact, & can be proven from extra-Biblical sources. The Torah is the 1st part of the Bible, the later part of which IS provable from extra-Biblical sources. So is it logical to accept the veracity of the earlier part of that book? I believe it is. Eventually, proof will be found. I choose to believe that the 5 events above, that we know occurred in broad outline, occurred w/ the details that the Torah says they did. You do

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #367 on: December 28, 2013, 06:05:26 PM »
the math. The social unrest? The events of the Exodus. The welding of the Hebrews into an ethno-politico-religious group? The revelation @ Sinai. The settlement of Canaan? The events of Joshua. Pretty clear to me! I believe archaeology will prove this all in time, as it has later parts of the Bible. Very simple.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #368 on: December 28, 2013, 06:17:33 PM »
So you accept facts on bad evidence when it suits you. Got it. So then why aren't you following all the heinous laws set out in the Torah?  Why are some parts metaphor when it suits and some parts literal?  Why is child murdering and genital mutilation ok for Jews but worthy of rape and genocide when someone else does it?
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Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #369 on: December 28, 2013, 06:38:21 PM »
Last time I checked, Jews did not have a custom of murdering children. Male circumcision is practiced by Muslims as well as Jews. Even many Westerners do it for hygienic reasons. Female mutilation has NEVER been a practice of ours. We leave that to the savages of the world, among whom we are pleased not to count ourselves.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #370 on: December 28, 2013, 06:41:54 PM »
Circumcision is a mutilation of the genitals, sorry. It is not necessary in the slightest. It does not matter how many people do it.

The Torah calls for the killing of disobedient children. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #371 on: December 28, 2013, 06:49:08 PM »
One assumes that such a child would be an adult, in order to be a drunkard. When the Davidic Kingdom is re-established, yes, that law will be enforced, & no, I've got no problem w/ that. As far as circumcision, my advice would be to grow a pair. Its done in infancy, & doesn't in any way harm the child.

Saddam Hussein

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #372 on: December 28, 2013, 06:50:03 PM »
And just like that, the thread stopped being about religion and became about dicks.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #373 on: December 28, 2013, 07:04:14 PM »
One assumes that such a child would be an adult, in order to be a drunkard.

You assume.

Quote
When the Davidic Kingdom is re-established, yes, that law will be enforced, & no, I've got no problem w/ that.

Thats messed up.

Quote
As far as circumcision, my advice would be to grow a pair. Its done in infancy, & doesn't in any way harm the child.

So as long as mutilation is done in infancy and does not cause lasting harm, its ok... gotcha.


[/quote]
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #374 on: December 28, 2013, 07:26:37 PM »
Again, re: circumcision, grow a pair. Re: Torah law, my advice would be the same. The Torah only applies to Jews anyway. It doesn't apply to Gentiles. Even when Messiah does come & usher in an era of peace w/ the Temple, the fire offerings of Israel (animal sacrifice), & full Torah observance, it won't be expected of non-Jews. Only the Noahide Laws (Google is your friend) apply to them.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #375 on: December 28, 2013, 08:28:13 PM »
I am not particularly worried about the Messiah coming.  I am just continuing to point out how you cherry pick your interpretations of a supposedly immutable holy book because some parts do not suit you.  Anyway, you have degenerated in to immaturity, so I will let it alone.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #376 on: December 28, 2013, 09:31:34 PM »
There are 613 commandments of the Law. In the absence of the Temple or the Davidic King, about 300 can be fulfilled & enforced. If I don't present my drunkard, disrespectful child to die, I'm cherry picking. If I do, I'm messed up. Which is it, Rama Set? I have told you that it is my belief that the full Torah will be operational during the Davidic Kingdom. You said I was messed up. Who is immature? I just told you to grow a pair AFTER you insulted me. So which is it? Should I cherry pick or call for full Torah Observance?  This should be an easy one for you to answer, since you seem to know everything else.

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Offline Снупс

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #377 on: December 28, 2013, 11:36:39 PM »
You honestly think it's alright to murder a disobedient child?
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #378 on: December 28, 2013, 11:47:44 PM »
You honestly think it's alright to murder a disobedient child?
Well, it certainly solves the disobedience issue.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What Religion are you?
« Reply #379 on: December 29, 2013, 12:06:35 AM »
There are 613 commandments of the Law. In the absence of the Temple or the Davidic King, about 300 can be fulfilled & enforced. If I don't present my drunkard, disrespectful child to die, I'm cherry picking. If I do, I'm messed up. Which is it, Rama Set? I have told you that it is my belief that the full Torah will be operational during the Davidic Kingdom. You said I was messed up. Who is immature? I just told you to grow a pair AFTER you insulted me. So which is it? Should I cherry pick or call for full Torah Observance?  This should be an easy one for you to answer, since you seem to know everything else.

Cherry-picking and morally repugnant are not mutually exclusive. However, you are totally neglecting choices 3 and 4.

#3-The Bible is a completely metaphorical text and should be treated as such, having no more weight than a profound piece of philosophy and story-telling.

#4-It is a completely fabricated bid by an Iron Age despot to control the scared masses and incite them to war and should be disregarded.

I never said you were messed up, I think the desire to apply ancient morality to modern life is messed up. If that insults you, then so be it, but you have repeatedly supported a stance on my spectrum of thinking in your Henry VIII thread.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.