The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Lemon on December 01, 2013, 08:17:41 PM

Title: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 01, 2013, 08:17:41 PM
Lets get the ball rolling down here, what religion are you?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 08:20:59 PM
Agnostic and gnostic are not mutually exclusive to a religious preference.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Vindictus on December 01, 2013, 08:22:30 PM
In before another massively skewed Atheist vote.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 01, 2013, 08:23:58 PM
Agnostic and gnostic are not mutually exclusive to a religious preference.

Does... does that matter or?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spoon on December 01, 2013, 08:24:37 PM
Agnostic and gnostic
ya gud point
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 08:24:53 PM
Does... does that matter or?

You can be an agnostic Christian, which poses a problem, as agnostic and Christian are two separate options on your poll. You probably shouldn't have mention agnosticism and just left it at "atheist."
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 01, 2013, 08:27:07 PM
Okay, I removed agnostic and added other.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 01, 2013, 09:07:51 PM
I find it laughable that any educated person could believe in atheism in the 21st century.  "Nothing came from nothing which exploded and randomly created self-replicating things that somehow created intelligent life, guys!"
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 01, 2013, 09:08:43 PM
So something always has to have come from something which means there is no end.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on December 01, 2013, 09:10:48 PM
I find it laughable that any educated person could believe in atheism in the 21st century.  "Nothing came from nothing which exploded and randomly created self-replicating things that somehow created intelligent life, guys!"
I find it laughable that any educated person could be religious in the 21st century. "Nothing came from a giant can of beans which circles around Mars and is also invisible, but then that nothing exploded and created Barack Obama, guys!"
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 09:12:24 PM
This forum already has the true spirit of FES. Only one thread in the entire forum and people are trollin' all over it.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 01, 2013, 09:14:26 PM
I find it laughable that any educated person could believe in atheism in the 21st century.  "Nothing came from nothing which exploded and randomly created self-replicating things that somehow created intelligent life, guys!"
I find it laughable that any educated person could be religious in the 21st century. "Nothing came from a giant can of beans which circles around Mars and is also invisible, but then that nothing exploded and created Barack Obama, guys!"

Well that's ridiculous. A can of beans couldn't cause a universe. Only an abstract being like God could.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 09:15:24 PM
What caused God?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 01, 2013, 09:31:56 PM
What caused God?

The necessity of His own maximally great nature. It is greater to exist in an abstract sense than to not exist at all.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 09:35:00 PM
The necessity of His own maximally great nature.

Oh, I see, when asked direct questions you make shit up.

It is greater to exist in an abstract sense than to not exist at all.

Simply having the idea of something existing doesn't correlate to it actually existing. I can imagine myself with the ability to shoot fire from my hands, but I don't actually have that ability, nor does any form of my persona exist anywhere in reality that has that ability.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Blanko on December 01, 2013, 09:41:55 PM
How do we have angry noobs already?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 01, 2013, 09:42:24 PM
The necessity of His own maximally great nature.

Oh, I see, when asked direct questions you make shit up.

No, I am making a logical inference about God's nature from the modal ontological argument for God's existence. Look up Alvin Plantinga if you want to understand how that translates to my thinking about God.

It is greater to exist in an abstract sense than to not exist at all.

Simply having the idea of something existing doesn't correlate to it actually existing. I can imagine myself with the ability to shoot fire from my hands, but I don't actually have that ability, nor does any form of my persona exist anywhere in reality that has that ability.

Well obviously you couldn't think that and have it happen, but a soul can produce effects upon the body of the universe if it is contingent upon an abstract realm of it. Wiki mind-body dualism.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 01, 2013, 09:48:53 PM
How do we have angry noobs already?

It's the .org administration trying to destroy the new site so we will stay with them.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 09:50:51 PM
Well obviously you couldn't think that and have it happen, but a soul can produce effects upon the body of the universe if it is contingent upon an abstract realm of it. Wiki mind-body dualism.

There's a lot more to a person than just the mind and body. What a boring philosophy.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Vindictus on December 01, 2013, 10:05:24 PM
The necessity of His own maximally great nature.

Oh, I see, when asked direct questions you make shit up.

No, I am making a logical inference about God's nature from the modal ontological argument for God's existence. Look up Alvin Plantinga if you want to understand how that translates to my thinking about God.

It is greater to exist in an abstract sense than to not exist at all.

Simply having the idea of something existing doesn't correlate to it actually existing. I can imagine myself with the ability to shoot fire from my hands, but I don't actually have that ability, nor does any form of my persona exist anywhere in reality that has that ability.

Well obviously you couldn't think that and have it happen, but a soul can produce effects upon the body of the universe if it is contingent upon an abstract realm of it. Wiki mind-body dualism.

Souls don't exist.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 01, 2013, 10:22:44 PM
The necessity of His own maximally great nature.

Oh, I see, when asked direct questions you make shit up.

No, I am making a logical inference about God's nature from the modal ontological argument for God's existence. Look up Alvin Plantinga if you want to understand how that translates to my thinking about God.

It is greater to exist in an abstract sense than to not exist at all.

Simply having the idea of something existing doesn't correlate to it actually existing. I can imagine myself with the ability to shoot fire from my hands, but I don't actually have that ability, nor does any form of my persona exist anywhere in reality that has that ability.

Well obviously you couldn't think that and have it happen, but a soul can produce effects upon the body of the universe if it is contingent upon an abstract realm of it. Wiki mind-body dualism.

Souls don't exist.

There is scientific proof that they do exist and influence what we do. Brain scans from people asked to perform a task do not show a change in their brain activity when they do the task, such a registration of how far they would have to move their body to perform such a task. But obviously we do register such things. This suggests the existence of an immaterial thing that registers the details of a task and then uses our nervous system to perform it.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 10:24:57 PM
There is scientific proof that they do exist and influence what we do. Brain scans from people asked to perform a task do not show a change in their brain activity when they do the task, such a registration of how far they would have to move their body to perform such a task. But obviously we do register such things. This suggests the existence of an immaterial thing that registers the details of a task and then uses our nervous system to perform it.

I urge you to show me this proof.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 01, 2013, 10:30:51 PM
There is scientific proof that they do exist and influence what we do. Brain scans from people asked to perform a task do not show a change in their brain activity when they do the task, such a registration of how far they would have to move their body to perform such a task. But obviously we do register such things. This suggests the existence of an immaterial thing that registers the details of a task and then uses our nervous system to perform it.

I urge you to show me this proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUVot-4GPM.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 10:34:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUVot-4GPM.

You're a gullible one, eh? Anyway, I said "scientific proof" not "whatever you can pull out of your ass."
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Blanko on December 01, 2013, 10:36:27 PM
Anyway, I said "scientific proof"

No you didn't.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 01, 2013, 10:38:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUVot-4GPM.

You're a gullible one, eh? Anyway, I said "scientific proof" not "whatever you can pull out of your ass."

You can't provide scientific "proof". Science does not "prove" anything. It assigns probability to certain events or notions about events. "Proofs" exist only in mathematics. I think my youtube vid provides evidence for the soul. The soul exists, it can be shown within a reasonable doubt to influence our behaviour.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 10:38:57 PM
Anyway, I said "scientific proof"

No you didn't.

Prove it.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 01, 2013, 10:48:45 PM
You can't provide scientific "proof". Science does not "prove" anything. It assigns probability to certain events or notions about events. "Proofs" exist only in mathematics. I think my youtube vid provides evidence for the soul. The soul exists, it can be shown within a reasonable doubt to influence our behaviour.

Well, I better get to work on figuring out a way to control souls, then. My current plans are rather boring in comparison.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Vindictus on December 01, 2013, 11:56:58 PM
There is scientific proof that they do exist and influence what we do. Brain scans from people asked to perform a task do not show a change in their brain activity when they do the task, such a registration of how far they would have to move their body to perform such a task. But obviously we do register such things. This suggests the existence of an immaterial thing that registers the details of a task and then uses our nervous system to perform it.

I urge you to show me this proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUVot-4GPM.

Yeah, going to need more than a Youtube video as evidence that souls exist.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on December 02, 2013, 07:46:54 AM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Снупс on December 02, 2013, 08:43:39 AM
You are right, atheism still isn't a religion.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 02, 2013, 03:46:30 PM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.

A religion is a set of beliefs about reality. You don't have to believe in God to be religious. I think atheism entails a particular set of beliefs about reality and it therefore can be defined as a religion.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 02, 2013, 04:51:05 PM
I originally had None (Atheism) but I changed it for some reason. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 02, 2013, 06:29:53 PM
What's the difference between Deist and Theist?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Thork on December 02, 2013, 06:33:07 PM
What's the difference between Deist and Theist?
They aren't spelt the same way.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 02, 2013, 06:36:08 PM
Never mind, I just found out.  That's really splitting hairs there (especially imo since I'm somewhat a mix of the two). :S
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 02, 2013, 06:44:16 PM
Never mind, I just found out.  That's really splitting hairs there (especially imo since I'm somewhat a mix of the two). :S

Its a pretty big deal actually.  Deism actually deals with scientific knowledge in a compatible way whereas theism is fucked.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 02, 2013, 06:46:48 PM
You can't provide scientific "proof".

Then why did you say...

There is scientific proof that they do exist and influence what we do. Brain scans from people asked to perform a task do not show a change in their brain activity when they do the task, such a registration of how far they would have to move their body to perform such a task. But obviously we do register such things. This suggests the existence of an immaterial thing that registers the details of a task and then uses our nervous system to perform it.

Also, this sounds an awful lot like a "God of the Gaps" argument.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Vindictus on December 02, 2013, 08:35:01 PM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.

A religion is a set of beliefs about reality. You don't have to believe in God to be religious. I think atheism entails a particular set of beliefs about reality and it therefore can be defined as a religion.

Religions have holy texts, and a system of belief. Atheism has none of that, it's just the lack of belief in a God.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 02, 2013, 09:21:51 PM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.

A religion is a set of beliefs about reality. You don't have to believe in God to be religious. I think atheism entails a particular set of beliefs about reality and it therefore can be defined as a religion.

Religions have holy texts, and a system of belief. Atheism has none of that, it's just the lack of belief in a God.

The God Delusion and the belief that gods are the product of man's imagination.

Atheism still isn't a religion though.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on December 02, 2013, 09:22:22 PM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.

A religion is a set of beliefs about reality. You don't have to believe in God to be religious. I think atheism entails a particular set of beliefs about reality and it therefore can be defined as a religion.
I disagree. Atheism does not entail any certain beliefs about reality. It only entails not believing in a god. It means "not theist". It's simply not having one (common) belief, but it certainly doesn't require the person hold any other beliefs. Simply that they don't hold one particular belief.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 02, 2013, 10:42:31 PM
Then why did you say...

There is scientific proof that they do exist and influence what we do. Brain scans from people asked to perform a task do not show a change in their brain activity when they do the task, such a registration of how far they would have to move their body to perform such a task. But obviously we do register such things. This suggests the existence of an immaterial thing that registers the details of a task and then uses our nervous system to perform it.

I misspoke. I should have said "scientific data".

Quote
Also, this sounds an awful lot like a "God of the Gaps" argument.

No, my belief that nothing can come from nothing, and there must be a first cause of the universe, is based upon a deductive inference to the best cause of the universe, whose attributes happen to resemble God. That is the exact opposite of a God-of-the-gaps style argument.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 03, 2013, 12:01:36 AM
Well I was referring to your inferring of a soul from our inability to determine an action's cognitive origin. That has nothing to do with the KCA or whatever formalism you misappropriate to deduce god.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 03, 2013, 12:05:07 AM
Lets get the ball rolling down here, what religion are you?
I am a proud Baptist!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 03, 2013, 12:54:31 AM
Well I was referring to your inferring of a soul from our inability to determine an action's cognitive origin.
Quote

In that case I suggest you look up dualism interactionism. This is a scientific theory on the soul which has much scientific evidence for it.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 03, 2013, 01:24:12 AM
I am a Jew. I think that atheism is not a religion. The atheists here are right about that. It does entail a lack of beliefs, which is a bit different than a set of beliefs. There is no official doctrine that an atheist must accept to be one. For example, being a Christian requires that you accept the Deity of Jesus. However much one respects Jesus, if one does not call him God then one is not a Christian, at least in the traditional sense (granted, I know some non-Trinitarian groups that would disagree, but they are few).

My sister-in-law is an ethnic Jew, but an atheist in her religious belief (or rather, the lack thereof). So does that make her more or less Jewish than me? No. It simply means that she has rejected the belief structure that most Jews are a part of, whether enthusiastically, like me, or nominally, like some others. The only way one loses the right to call oneself a Jew is by converting to another religion. Converting to no religion (atheism or agnosticism) doesn't do that. Go figure. No one, least of all me, ever claimed that it made sense.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 03, 2013, 01:37:50 AM
My ex was Jewish atheist too.  She still observed holidays and had a bat-mitzvah, but that may have be due to her age.  Granted she'll probably still observe Passover and Hanukkah with her family in her adult life. 

I would argue that more than a few groups claim Jesus to be son of God but not God incarnate.  The idea of Jesus being God incarnate was not even considered in early Christianity, and just looking back to a few verses it doesn't really make sense to claim he was God incarnate.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 03, 2013, 01:46:36 AM
ALCHEMIST, perhaps I should have specified that the majority of Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant, are Trinitarian. There are still a few million that are not. Mormons are not. Jehovah's Witnesses are not. All told, that makes about 22 million persons who are not, but still regard Jesus as the son of God. There are more of them then, than there are Jews, as we are about 15 million world wide. Those are the two sizable groups that are not Trinitarian. There are other groups that are not, but their numbers are very small. Some of the Oriental Orthodox Churches like the Copts and similar faiths are Trinitarian, but not in the orthodox way that most of the first listed Churches are.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 03, 2013, 02:07:37 AM
I am a Jew. I think that atheism is not a religion. The atheists here are right about that. It does entail a lack of beliefs, which is a bit different than a set of beliefs. There is no official doctrine that an atheist must accept to be one. For example, being a Christian requires that you accept the Deity of Jesus. However much one respects Jesus, if one does not call him God then one is not a Christian, at least in the traditional sense (granted, I know some non-Trinitarian groups that would disagree, but they are few).

My sister-in-law is an ethnic Jew, but an atheist in her religious belief (or rather, the lack thereof). So does that make her more or less Jewish than me? No. It simply means that she has rejected the belief structure that most Jews are a part of, whether enthusiastically, like me, or nominally, like some others. The only way one loses the right to call oneself a Jew is by converting to another religion. Converting to no religion (atheism or agnosticism) doesn't do that. Go figure. No one, least of all me, ever claimed that it made sense.
Athiesm is a religion because they worship science. They are all heretics

And im sorey but how the heck can a Jewish be "ethnic"? Jewish is a religion not a race so is she an athiest or Jewish?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 03, 2013, 02:11:05 AM
I am not getting into this again with you, Troll. I have given you several web sites and a seminal book on the subject to review regarding Jews being an ethnic group,  most of whom have some connection (however tenuous) to the religion of Judaism. The fact that you refuse to recognise that fact makes you an idiot. I very rarely resort to name-calling, but as I have already proved my point to you ad nauseam ad infinitum, I can only conclude that you are indeed an idiot.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 03, 2013, 04:02:02 AM
Then why did you say...

There is scientific proof that they do exist and influence what we do. Brain scans from people asked to perform a task do not show a change in their brain activity when they do the task, such a registration of how far they would have to move their body to perform such a task. But obviously we do register such things. This suggests the existence of an immaterial thing that registers the details of a task and then uses our nervous system to perform it.

I misspoke. I should have said "scientific data".

Quote
Also, this sounds an awful lot like a "God of the Gaps" argument.

No, my belief that nothing can come from nothing, and there must be a first cause of the universe, is based upon a deductive inference to the best cause of the universe, whose attributes happen to resemble God. That is the exact opposite of a God-of-the-gaps style argument.



I was talking about your beliefs in the soul specifically.  Just because we cannot define the source of cognition for some actions does not mean "its out eternal soul".
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Vindictus on December 03, 2013, 05:23:25 AM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.

A religion is a set of beliefs about reality. You don't have to believe in God to be religious. I think atheism entails a particular set of beliefs about reality and it therefore can be defined as a religion.

Religions have holy texts, and a system of belief. Atheism has none of that, it's just the lack of belief in a God.

The God Delusion and the belief that gods are the product of man's imagination.

Atheism still isn't a religion though.

There are atheists that have never heard of (or are incapable of reading) The God Delusion.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Socker on December 03, 2013, 06:56:30 AM
After being a fairly hardcore Christian for the first 18 years of my life (not entirely by choice), I switched to atheism. For me at least, it's much better. Religion was far too stressful for me, I think.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 03, 2013, 05:04:28 PM
I can accept the possibility that some kind of greater force exist in or outside our universe, which may or may not have created, or sparked the creation, of the universe. But I don't think this being/force/power, should he/it exist, possesses the properties of, or would identify with any of the gods the human race worship or have worshipped. And it certainly isn't the Christian biblical god.
Might even be several of them, not just one.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 03, 2013, 05:17:37 PM
I changed it to None (Atheism). I don't feel like adding a million clauses.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 03, 2013, 07:43:16 PM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.

A religion is a set of beliefs about reality. You don't have to believe in God to be religious. I think atheism entails a particular set of beliefs about reality and it therefore can be defined as a religion.

Religions have holy texts, and a system of belief. Atheism has none of that, it's just the lack of belief in a God.

The God Delusion and the belief that gods are the product of man's imagination.

Atheism still isn't a religion though.

There are atheists that have never heard of (or are incapable of reading) The God Delusion.

Is this the whole "even babies are atheists" schtick again? Because if it is, you are an idiot.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Vindictus on December 03, 2013, 08:09:11 PM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.

A religion is a set of beliefs about reality. You don't have to believe in God to be religious. I think atheism entails a particular set of beliefs about reality and it therefore can be defined as a religion.

Religions have holy texts, and a system of belief. Atheism has none of that, it's just the lack of belief in a God.

The God Delusion and the belief that gods are the product of man's imagination.

Atheism still isn't a religion though.

There are atheists that have never heard of (or are incapable of reading) The God Delusion.

Is this the whole "even babies are atheists" schtick again? Because if it is, you are an idiot.

Babies aren't the only ones incapable of reading.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 03, 2013, 08:27:07 PM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.

A religion is a set of beliefs about reality. You don't have to believe in God to be religious. I think atheism entails a particular set of beliefs about reality and it therefore can be defined as a religion.

Religions have holy texts, and a system of belief. Atheism has none of that, it's just the lack of belief in a God.

The God Delusion and the belief that gods are the product of man's imagination.

Atheism still isn't a religion though.

There are atheists that have never heard of (or are incapable of reading) The God Delusion.

Is this the whole "even babies are atheists" schtick again? Because if it is, you are an idiot.

Babies aren't the only ones incapable of reading.

Okay well if your point with that remark was that atheism is a default position that's completely untrue. Atheism is the position that a specific God/Gods doesn't exist.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 03, 2013, 09:22:51 PM
I am not getting into this again with you, Troll. I have given you several web sites and a seminal book on the subject to review regarding Jews being an ethnic group,  most of whom have some connection (however tenuous) to the religion of Judaism. The fact that you refuse to recognise that fact makes you an idiot. I very rarely resort to name-calling, but as I have already proved my point to you ad nauseam ad infinitum, I can only conclude that you are indeed an idiot.
Once again you start off with a mindless trolling acusation. And once again you are reley not getting it: JEWISH IS A RELIGION!!!!!!!!!! It is one of the five major religions of the world not an ethnic group. And from what I remember isnt the beleif that Jewish is a race a nazi idea? And you call yourself Jewish??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And im refusing it because its untrue and wow way to resort to name calling jerk. Your the idiot here
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 03, 2013, 11:02:57 PM
I never said we were a race, Troll. I said we were an ethnic group. Different thing. Until you look up the sources I recommended, some five, I believe, you can't discuss the subject rationally. Then again, I forget, you are a Troll, so you can't discuss the subject rationally anyway.Or any other subject for that matter. When you have grown up, and become an adult (a senior in high school who spells like a third grader can hardly be called mature), then come talk to me. Until then, you are nothing more than an idiot. If Jews are not an ethnic group, then from whence comes the term "Semite", or "Semitic"?If they are not an ethnic group, how come they share DNA with each other that they don't share with you? And no, don't give me the so-called "Baptist DNA" argument. When you look up the sources, come talk to me. The best one is "Judaism as a Civilization" by Mordecai Kaplan, the seminal writer on the subject. The book is available at Barnes and Noble for about 30 dollars (at least that is where I got it). It explains, very well, how Jews are an ethnic group that follow a religion known as Judaism, which is indeed one of the major world religions. "Jewish" is not a religion. "Judaism" is a religion. See the difference, Troll?

The only reason I bother to respond to you is because it entertains me to see someone make such an ass of themselves in public. Continue, by all means, Troll.

If Jews are not an ethnic group, how do you explain the existence of the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel, ie, the home of the Jews and the home of the Ten Northern Tribes? Benjamin was politically controlled by Judah, and the Levites were in both Kingdoms. How do you explain the existence of Israel today as the only Jewish State? Grow up, child, and when you have, come talk to me.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Снупс on December 03, 2013, 11:55:06 PM
I understand this may be nit-picky, but "Atheist" isn't a religion. It's the lack of a religion, if anything.

A religion is a set of beliefs about reality. You don't have to believe in God to be religious. I think atheism entails a particular set of beliefs about reality and it therefore can be defined as a religion.

Religions have holy texts, and a system of belief. Atheism has none of that, it's just the lack of belief in a God.

The God Delusion and the belief that gods are the product of man's imagination.

Atheism still isn't a religion though.

There are atheists that have never heard of (or are incapable of reading) The God Delusion.

Is this the whole "even babies are atheists" schtick again? Because if it is, you are an idiot.

Babies aren't the only ones incapable of reading.

Okay well if your point with that remark was that atheism is a default position that's completely untrue. Atheism is the position that a specific God/Gods doesn't exist.

Uhh...atheism is literally just the position that there are no gods, in general. The word "atheist" literally means "not theist" (or something to that effect). Nothing to do with specific gods; it's a position that no gods in general exist.

I guess this would come down to how much you'd be willing to argue that "atheist" and "nontheist" are different, with atheist being an active position rather than a passive one.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 03, 2013, 11:58:33 PM
NB: replace "Muslim" with "Bomb".
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Adolf Hipster on December 04, 2013, 12:02:01 AM
NB: replace "Muslim" with "Bomb".
Not all Muslims bomb America and other countries.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 04, 2013, 01:00:05 AM
I never said we were a race, Troll. I said we were an ethnic group. Different thing. Until you look up the sources I recommended, some five, I believe, you can't discuss the subject rationally. Then again, I forget, you are a Troll, so you can't discuss the subject rationally anyway.Or any other subject for that matter. When you have grown up, and become an adult (a senior in high school who spells like a third grader can hardly be called mature), then come talk to me. Until then, you are nothing more than an idiot. If Jews are not an ethnic group, then from whence comes the term "Semite", or "Semitic"?If they are not an ethnic group, how come they share DNA with each other that they don't share with you? And no, don't give me the so-called "Baptist DNA" argument. When you look up the sources, come talk to me. The best one is "Judaism as a Civilization" by Mordecai Kaplan, the seminal writer on the subject. The book is available at Barnes and Noble for about 30 dollars (at least that is where I got it). It explains, very well, how Jews are an ethnic group that follow a religion known as Judaism, which is indeed one of the major world religions. "Jewish" is not a religion. "Judaism" is a religion. See the difference, Troll?
Your only defense is calling me a troll you are truley pathetic and I spell just flippin fine. I am vary much mature and YOU are the idiot and I will tell you why and prove you wrong: semite is just a cimonym for Jewish; Jewish people always make a humongus deal over only marrying there own religion people (um...religionists much?) so they intermarry...just why do you think they share so much dna??! Moron. That doesnt prove anything so thus Jewish is only religion and not ethnic group. See it now troll?
The only reason I bother to respond to you is because it entertains me to see someone make such an ass of themselves in public. Continue, by all means, Troll.
No one who thinks im a troll could posibley be this emotionel to defend there view so im obz not a troll. You will forever be a moron
If Jews are not an ethnic group, how do you explain the existence of the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel, ie, the home of the Jews and the home of the Ten Northern Tribes? Benjamin was politically controlled by Judah, and the Levites were in both Kingdoms. How do you explain the existence of Israel today as the only Jewish State? Grow up, child, and when you have, come talk to me.
As for the kingdoms they were THEOCRACYS!!! The citizens were united under one religion and that religion was Jewish. And Israel is a crime agenst the Palestinans right to there homeland >o< Your the moron moron
NB: replace "Muslim" with "Bomb".
Tell me about it
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: RoundEarthisRound on December 04, 2013, 01:20:35 AM
NB: replace "Muslim" with "Bomb".
Not all Muslims bomb America and other countries.

Q.What do you call a Muslim with a gun?

A.Moderate.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 04, 2013, 01:21:42 AM
NB: replace "Muslim" with "Bomb".
Not all Muslims bomb America and other countries.

Q.What do you call a Muslim with a gun?

A.Moderate.
Its only true
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 04, 2013, 01:41:10 AM
Well, that's entertaining, since "Palestinians" are Arabs, who didn't arrive in the Holy Land until the 600s of the Christian Era (that means AD, to you). So whose homeland is it now? Of course, "Palestinians" say they are the original inhabitants of the Land. If that is true, then they were dispossessed of the Land by the Hebrews in the Book of Exodus by order of God. So, they still don't belong there. And yes, the tendency we have of marrying each other only is why we share DNA. But that is why we are an ethnic group. See how that works?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 04, 2013, 01:58:26 AM
ITT: Religion makes good people do bad things.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 04, 2013, 02:15:09 AM
I shall again, try to patiently explain. And no, I am not emotional at all, over this or any other subject. I consider myself a Stoic. I have been trained to take everything in and reply logically. Calling you a moron is logical. Anyone who insists on something that is not true is a moron. Anyone who cannot write in English that is recognisable to most people is a moron.

But, being a moron aside, let me explain again. Its like the Han Chinese, which make up 90% of the population of the People's Republic of China. They have a tendency to only marry themselves. That is why their ethnicity is largely untouched by others. There are 55 other ethnic groups in China, but they also tend to marry among themselves as well. Interestingly, since I brought the subject up, there is a city called Kaifeng, wherein there are about 200 Jewish families, who tend to marry only with each other. Thus, their DNA is separate from that of other Han, although they don't look much different.

Another example from China is the Hakka. They too, look like the Han of which they are part, but they also tend to stay with themselves. They share DNA with each other also. So tell me, O Brilliant One, if Jews are not an ethnic group, then how is it that the Chinese Jews share DNA with each other and with other Jews (me, for example) that they don't share with you? You say you are African American, because you are 1/32nd Black. I find that rather humourous, but lets go with that. If you are Black, then you share DNA with Black people that you don't share with me. See how that works?

I realise this basic concept is difficult for you. To be honest, it is not the easiest concept to grasp. But, with all the explaining I've done, I would think that by now you would have at least gotten a handle on it. Again, I refer you to Kaplan's excellent book on the subject. He wrote a lot of books, of which only one is relevant here. The rest tend to be theological.

The Kingdoms of Judah and Israel were headed by Kings who received their position by heredity. In Judah's case, the Kings were descended from David. If I were you, I would read my Bible before I opened my mouth and stuck my foot in it. Remember that David was of the Tribe of Judah, from Bethlehem. His children followed in the Kingship of all Israel, until the Ten Northern Tribes separated from the Southern Kingdom of Judah (see, there's that tribal name again). The Kingdom of Judah continued to be ruled by the descendants of David. The Northern Tribes called themselves Israel and were ruled by another family. On several occasions, revolutions occurred that put different men on the throne in Israel. Eventually, the Assyrians invaded Israel, and scattered the people.

Down in Judah, the kingship was steady, until the Babylonians conquered the Kingdom, and sent most of the Jews (people of the Tribe of Judah) into exile. When the Persians conquered Babylon, they allowed the Jews to return to Judah. There, they encountered people called Samaritans. These people were partly Israelite, and partly non-Israelite in descent. They wanted to rebuild the Temple with the Jews, but were refused, for two reasons. One, they were not ethnically pure like the Jews. They had mixed with other people. Two, their religion was not pure either, but was corrupted by non-Jewish beliefs.

There are still Samaritans in Israel today, some 700 of them. They worship, as they always have, on Mt. Gerizim. The Israeli State protects their religious freedom. They are, however, a different ethnic group than the Jews, although they share some of the same common descent (but not all of it; they have various other non-Israelite lineage too).

Well, all that having been said, there really isn't much more I can say. So far, you are the only person in here that refuses to see that Jews are an ethnic group. If they were not, how would non-Jews get the idea that we all have curly dark hair and large noses? This is not true, we all don't, but enough of us do to make it a stereotype. Stereotypes exist because there is a small amount of truth to them.

You see, its like saying that "All Black Americans are ghetto." Obviously that is not true. There are plenty of middle class, and even wealthy Blacks. But there are enough of the ghetto types to render the stereotype partially true.

The same can be said of us in reverse. "All Jews have money." Well, that is not true. If it were, I would not be a Jew, since I have very little money. But, enough of us do have money that the stereotype exists.

"All Black men are huge, giants with big muscles." "All Black women have big breasts and junk in the trunk." Neither of these statements is true. I almost married a Black woman (who was a Black Jew) who was tiny breasted (although she did have junk in the trunk, which I though was very sexy). And I have seen small, nerdy looking Black men. But enough of  both sexes have the common characteristics mentioned to create a stereotype. See how that works?

Well, I think I have said enough. There really isn't much more I can say. Repeating myself ad nauseam, ad infinitum, ad absurdam seems pointless. You either get it or you don't. If you get it, you are on board with the rest of the planet. If you don't, you are an idiot. Go around your neighbourhood sometime, and ask both Jews and Gentiles whether Jews are an ethnic group. Tell me the answers you receive. I would be curious to hear what people tell you.

Incidentally, a nation can be a theocracy and still be a kingdom. Saudi Arabia is such. On the other hand, Iran, which is also a theocratic state, is NOT a kingdom. See how that works?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 04, 2013, 06:37:05 AM
inb4 he calls you a racist for using the term "black", instead of "African American".
Apparently he's got the idea that all black people are African American, whether they're American or not.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Crudblud on December 04, 2013, 10:50:34 AM
I am indifferent towards religion. There was a time when I called myself an atheist, but I have no interest in being lumped in with the Dawkins/Hitchens herd.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 04, 2013, 02:31:48 PM
Well, since both groups are Jews, to whom the Land belongs by Divine election & right, the question is irrelevant.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 04, 2013, 02:38:13 PM
Quote
Okay well if your point with that remark was that atheism is a default position that's completely untrue. Atheism is the position that a specific God/Gods doesn't exist.

I don't believe in any gods, nor do I claim to know that they don't exist. Put whichever label on me that you want.

I use 'atheist' but it really doen't matter.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 05, 2013, 12:18:14 AM
Well, that's entertaining, since "Palestinians" are Arabs, who didn't arrive in the Holy Land until the 600s of the Christian Era (that means AD, to you). So whose homeland is it now? Of course, "Palestinians" say they are the original inhabitants of the Land. If that is true, then they were dispossessed of the Land by the Hebrews in the Book of Exodus by order of God. So, they still don't belong there. And yes, the tendency we have of marrying each other only is why we share DNA. But that is why we are an ethnic group. See how that works?
Are you reley that ignorent? Palestinians are completeley seperete from Arabs! Sure they have intermarryed quite a bit but Palestinians are Palestinians. For Gosh sake they are the namesake of the land itself - PALESTINE!!!!!!! They are indeed the originel inhabitents of PALESTINE and may I care to mention that these Hebrews we speak of are JEWISH?!! Hebrews are another flippin name for Jewish people...and Jewish is a RELIGION!!! How many times must I explain it to you? Im not arguing who the homeland belongs to (though it belongs to he Palestinians) but that Jewish people are NOT an ethnic group. And that does not make you a legit ethnic group but rather a religious comunitey. You refuse to acept the evidance and your just making a biger fool of yourself. Quite sad actuley
ITT: Religion makes good people do bad things.
Shut up rama!!!
I shall again, try to patiently explain. And no, I am not emotional at all, over this or any other subject. I consider myself a Stoic. I have been trained to take everything in and reply logically. Calling you a moron is logical. Anyone who insists on something that is not true is a moron. Anyone who cannot write in English that is recognisable to most people is a moron.
You are a vary emotionel and the fact that you wrote so much just shows that you know deep down that im not a troll. Caling me a moron is not logicel and shows your uter stupititey. I am a champion of truth and if you cant read my handriting than your a biger moron than I thought
But, being a moron aside, let me explain again. Its like the Han Chinese, which make up 90% of the population of the People's Republic of China. They have a tendency to only marry themselves. That is why their ethnicity is largely untouched by others. There are 55 other ethnic groups in China, but they also tend to marry among themselves as well. Interestingly, since I brought the subject up, there is a city called Kaifeng, wherein there are about 200 Jewish families, who tend to marry only with each other. Thus, their DNA is separate from that of other Han, although they don't look much different.

Another example from China is the Hakka. They too, look like the Han of which they are part, but they also tend to stay with themselves. They share DNA with each other also.
Thats because there actuel ethnic groups and not religions. Moron
So tell me, O Brilliant One,
Okay im liking where your going now :)
if Jews are not an ethnic group, then how is it that the Chinese Jews share DNA with each other and with other Jews (me, for example) that they don't share with you? You say you are African American, because you are 1/32nd Black. I find that rather humourous, but lets go with that. If you are Black, then you share DNA with Black people that you don't share with me. See how that works?
The reson why is because chinese people converted to Jewish and started intermarrying with other Jewish people
How is that humorus? I smell rascism. I dont see why anyone in there right mind could posibley find that funey for someone to be an African American. And black is a racial slur you bigot. And the reson why I share dna with other AFRICAN AMERICANS is because African American is an ACTUEL RACE!!!!!!! How much clerer could I posibley be with you???!! See how that works ;)
I realise this basic concept is difficult for you. To be honest, it is not the easiest concept to grasp. But, with all the explaining I've done, I would think that by now you would have at least gotten a handle on it. Again, I refer you to Kaplan's excellent book on the subject. He wrote a lot of books, of which only one is relevant here. The rest tend to be theological.
Yeah thanks. Your BS evidance now makes it more explanable that Jewish is a flippin RELIGION!!!
The Kingdoms of Judah and Israel were headed by Kings who received their position by heredity. In Judah's case, the Kings were descended from David. If I were you, I would read my Bible before I opened my mouth and stuck my foot in it. Remember that David was of the Tribe of Judah, from Bethlehem. His children followed in the Kingship of all Israel, until the Ten Northern Tribes separated from the Southern Kingdom of Judah (see, there's that tribal name again). The Kingdom of Judah continued to be ruled by the descendants of David. The Northern Tribes called themselves Israel and were ruled by another family. On several occasions, revolutions occurred that put different men on the throne in Israel. Eventually, the Assyrians invaded Israel, and scattered the people.
Yes the kings of Judah and Isreal were of JEWISH (as in RELIGION) familys and were made rulers of the Jewish people. And the tribes were groups of Jewish people (as in religion) and I do read the Bible it is the sorce of all morel gidence and love thy neibor and evereything!!!!!!!
Down in Judah, the kingship was steady, until the Babylonians conquered the Kingdom, and sent most of the Jews (people of the Tribe of Judah) into exile. When the Persians conquered Babylon, they allowed the Jews to return to Judah. There, they encountered people called Samaritans. These people were partly Israelite, and partly non-Israelite in descent. They wanted to rebuild the Temple with the Jews, but were refused, for two reasons. One, they were not ethnically pure like the Jews. They had mixed with other people. Two, their religion was not pure either, but was corrupted by non-Jewish beliefs.

There are still Samaritans in Israel today, some 700 of them. They worship, as they always have, on Mt. Gerizim. The Israeli State protects their religious freedom. They are, however, a different ethnic group than the Jews, although they share some of the same common descent (but not all of it; they have various other non-Israelite lineage too).

Well, all that having been said, there really isn't much more I can say. So far, you are the only person in here that refuses to see that Jews are an ethnic group. If they were not, how would non-Jews get the idea that we all have curly dark hair and large noses? This is not true, we all don't, but enough of us do to make it a stereotype. Stereotypes exist because there is a small amount of truth to them.
That proved nothing. And im pretty sure the majoritey isnt stupit enough to beleive Jewish is an actuel ethnic group (but then again there stupit enough to beleive the earth is round. Pff). And are you a rascist?! Stereotypes have no truth to them there based of ignorence
You see, its like saying that "All Black Americans are ghetto." Obviously that is not true. There are plenty of middle class, and even wealthy Blacks. But there are enough of the ghetto types to render the stereotype partially true.
No there flippin isnt you rascist how about you shut up!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AFRICAN AMERICANS can be anything stop being such a bigoted moron!!?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The same can be said of us in reverse. "All Jews have money." Well, that is not true. If it were, I would not be a Jew, since I have very little money. But, enough of us do have money that the stereotype exists.

"All Black men are huge, giants with big muscles." "All Black women have big breasts and junk in the trunk." Neither of these statements is true. I almost married a Black woman (who was a Black Jew) who was tiny breasted (although she did have junk in the trunk, which I though was very sexy). And I have seen small, nerdy looking Black men. But enough of  both sexes have the common characteristics mentioned to create a stereotype. See how that works?
*facepalm* Stop being such a flippin bigot you are a RASCIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And exacley: an AFRICAN AMERICAN Jewish person. Jewish people can be of any race. A Jewish can be chinese or African American or greek or what not!
Well, I think I have said enough. There really isn't much more I can say. Repeating myself ad nauseam, ad infinitum, ad absurdam seems pointless. You either get it or you don't. If you get it, you are on board with the rest of the planet. If you don't, you are an idiot. Go around your neighbourhood sometime, and ask both Jews and Gentiles whether Jews are an ethnic group. Tell me the answers you receive. I would be curious to hear what people tell you.

Incidentally, a nation can be a theocracy and still be a kingdom. Saudi Arabia is such. On the other hand, Iran, which is also a theocratic state, is NOT a kingdom. See how that works?
Your the idiot here. Once again you proved nothing. You are a complete and total moron who lives by this fantasey that Jewish is a ethnicitey insted of a religion. Moron. And gentile is a racial slur. Moron
inb4 he calls you a racist for using the term "black", instead of "African American".
Apparently he's got the idea that all black people are African American, whether they're American or not.
So...you want to call African Americans by a name that has hanted and hurt African Americans for years. You are a rascist and a bigot. And a moron. Musnt forget that
Well, that's entertaining, since "Palestinians" are Arabs, who didn't arrive in the Holy Land until the 600s of the Christian Era (that means AD, to you). So whose homeland is it now?

When did the Ashkenazim and Sephardim arrive in the Holy Land?
Exacley THANK YOU!!! :)
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 12:32:35 AM
57 spelling errors. And the word 'Palestine' was 1st applied by the Romans, in an attenpt to de-Judeaise the Land. It actually applied to the Philistines who were dispossessed of the Land by the Hebrews by order of God. The term 'Palestinian' only started being used as a nationality when Egypt & Jordan gave up their claims to the Gaza Strip & the West Bank in 1976. Before that, the term 'Palestinian' didn't exist. So... & how can 'Gentile' be racist when it doesn't refer to a race, nor is it used by a race?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 05, 2013, 01:10:56 AM
Yaakov, unless you have a short word for ethnic discrimination you will have to accept that people will use racism in its place, and not entirely inappropriately. It is common to include ethnic discrimination in the definition of racism. Get over it.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 01:34:51 AM
Rama, you have a point. But only an ethnic group can use an ethnic slur to refer to someone outside the group. Ergo, Jews are an ethnic group. To be sure, the term is not a slur. Jesus even used the term in the Gospels. It is an identity designation, nothing more.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 03:24:39 AM
It should be noted that the terrorist Yassir Arafat went to college in Cairo & served in the Egyptian armed forces. In most cases, serving in a country's military makes you a citizen of that country. Gazans were Egyptian. West Bankers were Jordanian. When those nations surrendered claims to the 2 areas, international law dictated that the residents of those areas be allowed to move into their respective countries of citizenship. Neither Egypt nor Jordan allowed this, rendering those people stateless. Israel would have been w/i rights to deport all of them. The point is that no nation known as Palestine has ever existed, nor does it exist now. It is a geographic designation only, invented by the Romans. 'Palestinians' do not exist. Stateless people exist. That is all.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 05, 2013, 03:27:59 AM
Rama, you have a point. But only an ethnic group can use an ethnic slur to refer to someone outside the group. Ergo, Jews are an ethnic group. To be sure, the term is not a slur. Jesus even used the term in the Gospels. It is an identity designation, nothing more.

Jews are not an ethnic group. Judaism is a religion, not a race.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 03:32:15 AM
For my response to that, read the rest of this thread.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 05, 2013, 06:00:25 AM
Rama, you have a point. But only an ethnic group can use an ethnic slur to refer to someone outside the group. Ergo, Jews are an ethnic group. To be sure, the term is not a slur. Jesus even used the term in the Gospels. It is an identity designation, nothing more.

I can't imagine how referring to someone essentially as "not of the chosen people" is seen in any other light than derogatory.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 07:26:14 AM
Well, point 1: if you're a Christian (not saying you are), Jesus of Nazareth used the term, as did Paul of Tarsus. Paul was the 1 responsible for getting the Church to accept Gentiles w/o obligating them to the Law. He evidently had no ill will toward them. The term wasn't used abusively by either man. Re: being Chosen, it depends on how you look @ chosenness. It can be understood in very exclusive terms. But, it can also be understood as chosen for service, to bring ethical monotheism to a wounded world. Further, a non-Jew can be accepted into the fold of Judaism. Most of us are Jews by descent & ethnicity, but there are Jews by Choice. So, if you look @ it that way, there is nothing wrong w/ being a Gentile. I know what God has revealed to the Jews through his Prophets, & what I must do to be a good Jew, & a good man before God. What God has or has not revealed to non-Jews is above my pay grade. But you don't have to be a Jew to get to Paradise.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 05, 2013, 07:37:24 AM
inb4 he calls you a racist for using the term "black", instead of "African American".
Apparently he's got the idea that all black people are African American, whether they're American or not.
So...you want to call African Americans by a name that has hanted and hurt African Americans for years. You are a rascist and a bigot. And a moron. Musnt forget that
Fine, I won't use the word black. So what term should I use when referring to a non-American person of African descent? A person who has never in his whole life lived in America is NOT an African American.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 07:40:10 AM
Oscar, the Jews were the original inhabitants, & were given the Land by God. The fact that Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, & Crusaders all tried to force us out is beside the point. Starting in the 1880's, we Jews grew a pair & began reclaiming what is rightfully ours by God's command. The Romans, Byzantines, & the Crusaders are all gone from the land. The Arabs will be next, & we will take what is ours by right.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 05:28:54 PM
Oscar, the Jews were the original inhabitants, & were given the Land by God. The fact that Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, & Crusaders all tried to force us out is beside the point. Starting in the 1880's, we Jews grew a pair & began reclaiming what is rightfully ours by God's command. The Romans, Byzantines, & the Crusaders are all gone from the land. The Arabs will be next, & we will take what is ours by right.

Tell that to the Canaanites.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 05:32:57 PM
Well, they were eliminated by God's command, so that point is irrelevant.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 05:35:46 PM
Well, they were eliminated by God's command, so that point is irrelevant.

Which is pretty much the Muslim/Arabs argument for getting rid of the Jews (and many christian kings).

They killed Jesus.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 05:53:49 PM
The difference being that God doesn't change his mind. The Torah is an eternal document. God says in it that its commands are permanent. It makes no sense for him to suddenly say 'Oh, Jesus (or Mohammed) have come. Sorry, I didn't really mean forever.' & given that Jesus died on a Roman cross makes it clear who killed him.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 06:04:49 PM
The difference being that God doesn't change his mind.
he does when people change.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 06:11:58 PM
Well, I disagree. I've had this debate w/ a Muslim I know. God made it clear that the Jews were the Chosen of God. Even when we failed him, he never abandoned us, & never will. The Hebrew Bible is clear on that. I recommend reading the 8th chapter of Zechariah, & pay close attention to the 23rd verse.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 06:16:26 PM
Well, I disagree. I've had this debate w/ a Muslim I know. God made it clear that the Jews were the Chosen of God. Even when we failed him, he never abandoned us, & never will. The Hebrew Bible is clear on that. I recommend reading the 8th chapter of Zechariah, & pay close attention to the 23rd verse.

The old testament is quite clear that a number of times god's assistance is dependent on the Jews continuing to follow his commands and that he will express his displeasure if they don't.

I'd say it's been pretty well expressed in the last two thousand years.

Times change and god sent his only son to give you the heads up, you guys (or at least the pharisees) then had the Romans crucify him. that's bound to cheese someone off.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 06:31:35 PM
Well, I could get into this, but I choose not to. I quite regularly deal w/ the subject. The fact is, if the Jews wanted him dead, they would have stoned him to death (the Roman authorities very rarely refused to give consent to the Jews enforcing their own Law). The fact that they didn't puts that whole portion of the Gospel story into doubt. & as re: the sacrifice on the cross makes no sense. The God of Israel specifically forbade human sacrifice. Then he changes his mind & kills his own son. That is illogical in the extreme to even contemplate. Then again, Christians worship a Jewish Rabbi & call him God (weird, but ok), & yet many don't like Jews. Even weirder, but ok.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 06:44:45 PM
Clearly the pharisees didn't want it on their own hands, they were actively trying to put themselves in the situation where they could point at the Romans as the culprits.

As for sacrifice, death on the cross is no more or less a sacrifice than stoning is, the sacrifice is not in the action but in the intent.

Given that you believe in an almighty god I don't see many other ways to explain the Jews extreme bad fortune in all the years since.

BTW If you're going to believe in any religion it's probably best not to start labeling anything weird, it's no odder than a talking bush.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 05, 2013, 06:47:00 PM
Well, I could get into this, but I choose not to. I quite regularly deal w/ the subject. The fact is, if the Jews wanted him dead, they would have stoned him to death (the Roman authorities very rarely refused to give consent to the Jews enforcing their own Law). The fact that they didn't puts that whole portion of the Gospel story into doubt. & as re: the sacrifice on the cross makes no sense. The God of Israel specifically forbade human sacrifice. Then he changes his mind & kills his own son. That is illogical in the extreme to even contemplate. Then again, Christians worship a Jewish Rabbi & call him God (weird, but ok), & yet many don't like Jews. Even weirder, but ok.

By your own view, if God seems human sacrifice ethical then it is. Just like when he decided genocide was just fine. People who do not follow the Judeo-Christian tradition see no conflict either since both holy books are steeped in the hypocrisy and violence you would expect if it were a collection of documents written by humans. There is no meta-physical problem with God endorsing human sacrifice in the case of Jesus.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 05, 2013, 06:53:50 PM
I've always wondered what happened to "Thou shall not kill".
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 06:56:48 PM
I've always wondered what happened to "Thou shall not kill".

I believe the usual explanation is that the correct translation would be "thou shalt not murder".

A fine distinction but a distinction none the less.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 07:01:58 PM
Well, God doesn't change his mind. He declared human sacrifice forbidden. Thus it is. He doesn't change his mind. & as I recall, the Pharisees didn't have much to do w/ it. It was more the High Priest. I'm sure that the Pharisees had a bit of involvement (the Gospel accounts, @ any rate). But I don't trust those accounts. The virgin birth business, the census that no one can verify happening, the non-existance of the murder of the infants of Bethlehem, the fact that Jesus was supposedly convicted by about 15 people in the middle of the night & then given to the Romans (the Sanhedrin never met @ night, or w/ less than 71 members, & they didn't depend on the Romans to execute) all make the Gospel accounts unreliable.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 05, 2013, 07:39:47 PM
God commanded the murder of all the Amalachites in direct contravention to the ten commandments.  When I asked you about that you said, "Well God commanded it so it is ethical."  Why can't the same horrendous logic we applied to the sacrifice of Jesus?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DuckDodgers on December 05, 2013, 08:00:57 PM
Are you claiming to know the mind of God when you say he doesn't change his mind?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 05, 2013, 08:12:41 PM
The death of the Amalekites was not murder, but execution for their crimes against God & the People. Murder is forbidden. Enforcement of God's law by his command is not. I don't claim to know more than what the Bible tells us about God's mind. But God created logic. Violating said logic would render him inconsistent. This is impossible. If God said a thing is forever, & then changes that later, he is fickle @ best, & a liar @ worst. Either is incompatible w/ being God. For now, I end. Be back tonight later.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 05, 2013, 10:31:28 PM
57 spelling errors. And the word 'Palestine' was 1st applied by the Romans, in an attenpt to de-Judeaise the Land. It actually applied to the Philistines who were dispossessed of the Land by the Hebrews by order of God. The term 'Palestinian' only started being used as a nationality when Egypt & Jordan gave up their claims to the Gaza Strip & the West Bank in 1976. Before that, the term 'Palestinian' didn't exist. So... & how can 'Gentile' be racist when it doesn't refer to a race, nor is it used by a race?
Hey were not talking about names here were talking about ETHNICITYS. The opresion gave them this name and there just trying to get there homeland back. And whatever gentile is religionist. Happy now buddy ::)
Yaakov, unless you have a short word for ethnic discrimination you will have to accept that people will use racism in its place, and not entirely inappropriately. It is common to include ethnic discrimination in the definition of racism. Get over it.
Ikr!
It should be noted that the terrorist Yassir Arafat went to college in Cairo & served in the Egyptian armed forces. In most cases, serving in a country's military makes you a citizen of that country. Gazans were Egyptian. West Bankers were Jordanian. When those nations surrendered claims to the 2 areas, international law dictated that the residents of those areas be allowed to move into their respective countries of citizenship. Neither Egypt nor Jordan allowed this, rendering those people stateless. Israel would have been w/i rights to deport all of them. The point is that no nation known as Palestine has ever existed, nor does it exist now. It is a geographic designation only, invented by the Romans. 'Palestinians' do not exist. Stateless people exist. That is all.
Okay now your trying to say palestinians dont exist? Wake up and smell the cofee! Go into West Bank and look for yourself and see thousends of palestinians! Like they dont exist what an idiotic thing to say
inb4 he calls you a racist for using the term "black", instead of "African American".
Apparently he's got the idea that all black people are African American, whether they're American or not.
So...you want to call African Americans by a name that has hanted and hurt African Americans for years. You are a rascist and a bigot. And a moron. Musnt forget that
Fine, I won't use the word black. So what term should I use when referring to a non-American person of African descent? A person who has never in his whole life lived in America is NOT an African American.
I dont know african canadein or something?!!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 11:16:21 PM
Well, God doesn't change his mind. He declared human sacrifice forbidden.
it's not sacrifice unless it's done to something.

Crucifixion is just killing not sacrifice so that point's irrelevant.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 05, 2013, 11:18:48 PM
Okay now your trying to say palestinians dont exist? Wake up and smell the cofee! Go into West Bank and look for yourself and see thousends of palestinians! Like they dont exist what an idiotic thing to say
the one and only difference between a Palestinian and an Egyptian/Jordanian is about 100 yards.

Religiously, ethnically, any -ly you like they are only really differentiated by lines on a map.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 06, 2013, 01:43:32 AM
Those thousands of 'Palestinians' are stateless persons. Egyptians & Jordanians, deprived of their citizenship by those nations. Those nations are to blame for the plight of the Arabs of the Occupied Territories, not Israel, who gained military control over the areas after winning a war started by the Arabs. If Israel were smart, it would annex both areas, as it did w/ the Golan Heights & E. Jerusalem. Even smarter would be to deport every Arab from Greater Israel (Israel plus the Occupied Territories) that won't expressly take an oath of citizenship & loyalty to the State.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 06, 2013, 02:49:21 AM
The death of Jesus on the cross is uniformly re: by Christians as a ransom sacrifice by which men are saved from their sins. If you have questions on that, I invite you to consult w/ Christians.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DuckDodgers on December 06, 2013, 02:59:26 AM
Jesus took it upon himself to cleanse the sin of man with his own blood, unlike a lot of human sacrifice where others choose who is sacrificed.  He also took the opportunity through his own death to retrieve the key to Hell to ensure eternal salvation for those who follow him.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 06, 2013, 03:04:54 AM
I understand all that. It gets mixed up w/ him being called God. So God sired himself through the action of the Holy Ghost (also called God) only to sacrifice himself in order to save man from sin, even though God was also man, & he had forbidden human sacrifice in Genesis. Well, alrighty then!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: jroa on December 06, 2013, 10:48:01 AM
If God is so powerful, then why does he need man to kill man in order to make man uphold his laws?  could he not just smite the offender himself?  He seems kind of lazy.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 06, 2013, 12:14:58 PM
Can god create two hats that are cooler than each other?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 06, 2013, 12:26:42 PM
The death of Jesus on the cross is uniformly re: by Christians as a ransom sacrifice by which men are saved from their sins. If you have questions on that, I invite you to consult w/ Christians.

from that perspective yes.

From the perspective of the pharisees it was not.

And I invite you to look at the many passages of the old testament when sacrifice of many kinds is mentioned and requested by god.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 06, 2013, 05:36:30 PM
Alright, let me be more precise. God promised the land to Abraham. He made good on that promise when we drove the Canaanites out by divine ordinance. Ergo, the Land passed to us by God's command, which has never been (& will never be) superceded. Anyone else who occupies the Land does so in contravention of God's command. Ergo, the Arabs of the Occupied Territories must be deported, peacefully if possible, by gunpoint if necessary, & Greater Israel must become a fact.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 06, 2013, 06:03:55 PM
Is there a passage in the Torah that says the Jews cannot choose to live peacefully with others on the Holy Lands?  Or does God require Jews to become malicious, violent war-mongers when others step on the Holy Lands?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: jroa on December 06, 2013, 06:07:53 PM
If God gave the land to the Jews, then why don't they all live there?  Why are you disobeying God's command by not living in Israel? 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 06, 2013, 06:24:33 PM
In an ideal world, we would all live there. But currently the W. Bank & Gaza are occupied by invading Arabs. Remember that Israel proper is also 22% Arab. After Greater Israel is declared, & the Arab invaders removed, then all 15 million of us might fit! Oscar, what was your last question? Perhaps I missed it?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 02:27:40 PM
Jews were masters of the Land by right & divine election. It was people that attempted to change that, like Arabs. They came in & squatted on land that was not & is not theirs. As the Jews come back the Arabs must make way for them to reclaim their rightful place.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 07, 2013, 02:46:16 PM
Divine election? That's just something that the Jews believe. That doesn't make it true.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 07:08:42 PM
Read the Torah. That makes it true. & I did some checking around today. 9 other people, 8 of them Jews, & 1 Gentile, all classify Jews as an ethnic group. I am pretty sure that any Jew I meet will say the same, as well as most non-Jews. So a group that self-classifies as an ethnic group can't have that designation revoked by someone who isn't part of the group. Its established then, that Jews are an ethnic group that practice Judaism. 'Jewish' is not a religion. 'Judaism' is a religion practiced by Jewish people, just like Catholicism being a religion practiced by Irish people (& many other ethnic groups). What makes Judaism unique is that there is only 1 ethnic group that practices it, namely, Jewish people. The closest would be Shinto, which is only practiced by Japanese people (most of whom are also Buddhist, so the parallel isn't exact). Well. Now that's established... .& notice, I said 'ethnic group', NOT race. 2 different things.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 07, 2013, 08:56:23 PM
Divine election? That's just something that the Jews believe. That doesn't make it true.

Read the Torah. That makes it true.

This is when a thread should be locked.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 09:17:13 PM
Incidentally, racially, Jews are like Hispanics, in the sense that they can be white (like Costa Ricans), brown (like most Mexicans), or black (like many Cubans).
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 07, 2013, 09:44:30 PM
Read the Torah. That makes it true.

That is pretty convenient that the Jews wrote a book that states that they have divine right to the land.  Your argument boils down to, essentially, "The Jews say they have divine right, therefore they have divine right."  I'm sure you can understand that nobody rational is going to take this kind of hooey seriously.  If this is your reasoning, then you have no real reasoning.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 07, 2013, 09:56:30 PM
I find his reasoning quite circular.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 07, 2013, 09:57:32 PM
Incidentally, racially, Jews are like Hispanics, in the sense that they can be white (like Costa Ricans), brown (like most Mexicans), or black (like many Cubans).

That's probably because Judaism is a religion, not a race. How many times do I have to tell people this? Why does so much of the world think Jews are a race?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 09:59:20 PM
I understand your point. But, in reality, the book was inspired by God. Even Christians acknowledge that. Heck, even Muslims acknowledge that much, though they believe it has been superceded (although how 'forever' suddenly doesn't mean 'forever' is beyond me).  But, ignoring Torah, Jews still have a strong claim to the Land since the Arabs interloped on the area.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 07, 2013, 10:01:51 PM
I understand your point. But, in reality, the book was inspired by God. Even Christians acknowledge that. Heck, even Muslims acknowledge that much, though they believe it has been superceded (although how 'forever' suddenly doesn't mean 'forever' is beyond me).  But, ignoring Torah, Jews still have a strong claim to the Land since the Arabs interloped on the area.

No, the book was made up by humans. Writing a book and then telling other humans the book commands you to give me your land is horrid logic.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 10:04:13 PM
I never said Jews were a race. Neither are Hispanics. Both are ethnic groups which cross racial barriers. Judaism is a religion practiced by the Jewish ethnic group. As I said above, any Jew, & most Gentiles, will tell you that Jews are an ethnic group.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 10:08:53 PM
Even ignoring Torah, Canaanites don't exist any more, so the Jews qualify as the original inhabitants. Ergo, the Arabs must go.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 07, 2013, 11:15:29 PM
Even ignoring Torah, Canaanites don't exist any more, so the Jews qualify as the original inhabitants. Ergo, the Arabs must go.

Original inhabitants are irrelevant. The Jews simply want what isn't theirs anymore. The whole world tolerates Israel's violent shenanigans for no good reason.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 11:31:01 PM
By that argument, what happened to the Natives of Australia was a good thing. & the Natives here should pack up & leave too. Well, Israel has God on its side. 'I shall bless those who bless you, & curse those who curse you', says the Scripture. & we have seen that to be the case. Its like the old Jewish joke: 'They tried to kill us, we won, lets eat.' It has always been thus. The nations who tried to destroy us are in the dustbin of history. We are victorious. Thus it has been, is, & always will be. End of speech.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 07, 2013, 11:34:53 PM
By that argument, what happened to the Natives of Australia was a good thing. & the Natives here should pack up & leave too. Well, Israel has God on its side.

So does the Middle East. I don't know if anyone has told you, but there are multiple religions. Everyone has a god on their side.

'I shall bless those who bless you, & curse those who curse you', says the Scripture. & we have seen that to be the case. Its like the old Jewish joke: 'They tried to kill us, we won, lets eat.' It has always been thus. The nations who tried to destroy us are in the dustbin of history. We are victorious. Thus it has been, is, & always will be. End of speech.

The US is the only reason Israel hasn't been turned to rubble and no one in the US actually gives a shit about Israel. The US just wants that delicious, delicious oil that Israel is surrounded with.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 07, 2013, 11:47:55 PM
& notice, Israel doesn't have any oil for export. They produce enough for their own consumption. So the US isn't getting anything on that deal. & given that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, & the only country where you don't get stoned for disagreeing w/ the State, I'd say its more about knowing America's true friends (Israel) from so-called 'allies' who directly or indirectly support terrorism (most of the other nations in the region). & I take you back to 'I will bless those who bless you...' Enough Christians & Jews here believe those words to make that a primary motive for supporting Israel. To quote Yul Bryner, 'So let it be written, so let it be done!'
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 07, 2013, 11:49:29 PM
Well, I'd take a bunch of Jews over a bunch of Muslims any day.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 07, 2013, 11:53:57 PM
& notice, Israel doesn't have any oil for export. They produce enough for their own consumption. So the US isn't getting anything on that deal. & given that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, & the only country where you don't get stoned for disagreeing w/ the State, I'd say its more about knowing America's true friends (Israel) from so-called 'allies' who directly or indirectly support terrorism (most of the other nations in the region). & I take you back to 'I will bless those who bless you...' Enough Christians & Jews here believe those words to make that a primary motive for supporting Israel. To quote Yul Bryner, 'So let it be written, so let it be done!'

I didn't say the oil is from Israel. Israel is the United States' foothold in the Middle East. It's a thoroughfare country used for our benefit. If the Middle East were ever to fall to the Chinese (Like Iran) then we would have to back out, resulting in Israel's inevitable destruction. Israel exists because the most powerful country in the world wants it to, there are no gods involved.

Well, I'd take a bunch of Jews over a bunch of Muslims any day.

I don't see the difference between them.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 07, 2013, 11:59:24 PM
Well, I'd take a bunch of Jews over a bunch of Muslims any day.

I don't see the difference between them.
one of them don't stone their daughters for having sex outside of marriage.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 12:01:48 AM
I'm not going to get into whether God is involved or not. That's a topic that we could bat around all night. I've made my beliefs clear. But, if Israel were helping us in our obtaining oil, Californians wouldn't be paying 5 bucks a gallon for gas. No, we're not there for oil. We are there for the reasons I mentioned. & the difference between a Jew & a camel jockey is that the latter likes to blow shit up.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 12:17:38 AM
Yeah the Israelis just fly helicopter gunships in to 3rd world ghettos because God said they should
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2013, 01:12:50 AM
one of them don't stone their daughters for having sex outside of marriage.

You're confusing cultural extremism with religion.

I'm not going to get into whether God is involved or not. That's a topic that we could bat around all night. I've made my beliefs clear. But, if Israel were helping us in our obtaining oil, Californians wouldn't be paying 5 bucks a gallon for gas. No, we're not there for oil. We are there for the reasons I mentioned. & the difference between a Jew & a camel jockey is that the latter likes to blow shit up.

Your reasoning doesn't even make sense, I think your personal bias is clouding you judgement.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 02:05:21 AM
Rama, if someone was firing rockets @ your Southern cities, you would take out the rockets. The fact that Hamas puts them in the middle of civilians is their problem, not ours. Besides, 1 less Arab is 1 less potential suicide bomber. &, to be blunt, when their ancestors were savaging each other in brutal blood feuds (& this applies to Europeans too), mine were Priests in the Temple of Solomon.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 02:48:16 AM
Lol!  And you guys were committing genocide before we were what's your point?

Man, Gentile might not be a racist word, but you certainly are a racist.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 02:54:32 AM
Hmm, well, its a point of view.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2013, 02:57:55 AM
Hmm, well, its a point of view.

You're being very selective about which points you view, that's for certain.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 03:07:51 AM
I simply don't believe in being nice. The Arabs have started 3 wars & 2 intifadas w/ Israel, & lost all of them. Israel should annex all the land currently occupied, & deport the Arabs living there. The last time Jews were nice, it cost us 6 million people. The Jews finally grew a pair & took what is theirs, & won't tolerate camel jockies taking it away, which is what they've tried doing 5 times since 1948. In 2000, Israel offered Arafat 96% of the W. Bank, E. Jerusalem, & Gaza. Arafat refused & started the 2nd Intifada. Israel owes the Arabs nothing @ this point, except a map w/ directions out of the Land.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 08, 2013, 03:17:51 AM
I have no idea what the deal is with Israel. I do not wish to google it and read someone's essay to get the idea.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2013, 03:23:48 AM
I have no idea what the deal is with Israel. I do not wish to google it and read someone's essay to get the idea.

The UN gave the Jews a country after the holocaust by buying up a bunch of land from Palestinians. This initial country-founding made Palestine very angry, since the UN didn't do much discussion with them about it. Since then Israel has tried on a daily basis to expand its borders farther into Palestine and met harsh resistance.

It's funny because I don't remember the UN giving the gays and gypsies a country, even though Hitler killed a lot more of them than Jews. Oh right, I forgot, the world still hates those two groups.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 04:52:02 AM
Actually, the UN didn't buy any land. Since the 1880's Jews had bought land from mostly absentee landlords @ fair or exorbitant prices. The Nazis killed about 1 million Gypsies, & 500 thousand homosexuals. Initially, Palestine (which was Jordan, Israel, & the Occupied Territories) was to be divided in half. The Arabs said no. Every offer made, the Arabs refused. Finally,the Jews were offered 1/5 the territory, the Arabs the rest. The Arabs refused. Israel finally declared independence, was attacked by 5 Arab countries, & won. In 1967, the Arabs started preparing an attack. The Israelis beat them to it. In 1973, the Arabs attacked during the holiest day of the Jewish year, & lost again. Incidentally, it was also Ramadan. So much for Muslims not fighting then!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 04:58:02 AM
& Israel only took land in military victory in wars started by Arabs. They then returned the Sinai in 1982 in exchange for a cold peace w/ Egypt. & again, I remind you of the offer made to Arafat in 2000. It should be noted that it was the Balfour Declaration, issued by the British, that 1st introduced the world beyond Jewry to the idea of a Jewish National Home that wouldn't abridge the rights of the current residents. & under Israeli law, Arabs (22% of Israel) are equal to Jews, some would even say moreso, as they, unlike Jews of both sexes, are not drafted.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 08, 2013, 11:57:01 AM
Incidentally, racially, Jews are like Hispanics, in the sense that they can be white (like Costa Ricans), brown (like most Mexicans), or black (like many Cubans).

That's probably because Judaism is a religion, not a race. How many times do I have to tell people this? Why does so much of the world think Jews are a race?

Jewish can be both an ethnic group and a religion but not all ethnic jews are religiously jewish and not all of the Jewish religion are ethnically Jewish.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 08, 2013, 05:10:41 PM
Okay now your trying to say palestinians dont exist? Wake up and smell the cofee! Go into West Bank and look for yourself and see thousends of palestinians! Like they dont exist what an idiotic thing to say
the one and only difference between a Palestinian and an Egyptian/Jordanian is about 100 yards.

Religiously, ethnically, any -ly you like they are only really differentiated by lines on a map.
Thats rascism they are two difrent ethnicitys that happen to live close to each other. Idiot
Those thousands of 'Palestinians' are stateless persons. Egyptians & Jordanians, deprived of their citizenship by those nations. Those nations are to blame for the plight of the Arabs of the Occupied Territories, not Israel, who gained military control over the areas after winning a war started by the Arabs. If Israel were smart, it would annex both areas, as it did w/ the Golan Heights & E. Jerusalem. Even smarter would be to deport every Arab from Greater Israel (Israel plus the Occupied Territories) that won't expressly take an oath of citizenship & loyalty to the State.
Palestinians are Palestinians. DEAL WITH IT !
Ergo, the Arabs of the Occupied Territories must be deported, peacefully if possible, by gunpoint if necessary, & Greater Israel must become a fact.
What kind of sick person are you?!! You want the isrealis to kill Palestinians all because they want to live in there own flippin homeland??!!! My Lord im sick to my stumich now :-X
Lol!  And you guys were committing genocide before we were what's your point?

Man, Gentile might not be a racist word, but you certainly are a racist.
Ikr! It makes me sick to see this!!
Incidentally, racially, Jews are like Hispanics, in the sense that they can be white (like Costa Ricans), brown (like most Mexicans), or black (like many Cubans).

That's probably because Judaism is a religion, not a race. How many times do I have to tell people this? Why does so much of the world think Jews are a race?

Jewish can be both an ethnic group and a religion but not all ethnic jews are religiously jewish and not all of the Jewish religion are ethnically Jewish.
Jewish is a religion only. Jewish isnt an ethnic group you see Jewish people of all races and colors! You see white Jewish people African American Jewish people chinese Jewish people so thus obvz not an ethnic group
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 05:21:13 PM
9 orthographic errors. How fun. The rest of the post isn't worth responding to, since he just randomly repeats stuff that has been proven false numerous times. As indicated, 8 other Jews, and one Gentile, agreed with me yesterday that Jews are an ethnic group. A non-Jew cannot define who and what we are. End of story.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 08, 2013, 05:36:39 PM
9 orthographic errors. How fun. The rest of the post isn't worth responding to, since he just randomly repeats stuff that has been proven false numerous times. As indicated, 8 other Jews, and one Gentile, agreed with me yesterday that Jews are an ethnic group. A non-Jew cannot define who and what we are. End of story.
Your not responding because you know you cant dafeet me. And those people you interviewed are idiots. Just like you ;)
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2013, 05:44:27 PM
John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans and African Americans black?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 05:45:27 PM
4 orthographic errors. No need to 'dafeet' someone who does the job for me.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2013, 05:46:09 PM
John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans black?

Uhh, what people are you meeting that don't like the term "black"?

4 orthographic errors. No need to 'dafeet' someone who does the job for me.

If you're not going to make an argument, don't post.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 08, 2013, 05:47:33 PM
John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans and African Americans black?
Well African Americans have had to deal with rascism for years
4 orthographic errors. No need to 'dafeet' someone who does the job for me.
I made you look like a fool as usuley what are you talking about?!
John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans black?

Uhh, what people are you meeting that don't like the term "black"?

4 orthographic errors. No need to 'dafeet' someone who does the job for me.

If you're not going to make an argument, don't post.
Ikr!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 05:53:07 PM
3 orthographic errors. I don't have to prove anything more than I have. I have given you 6 sources now, & explained thoroughly. Since all Jews consider themselves an ethnic group, anyone who disagrees is duty-bound to prove us wrong. Its that simple.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2013, 05:55:41 PM
John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans black?
Uhh, what people are you meeting that don't like the term "black"?
EJ doesn't, so that's why I asked him.

John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans and African Americans black?
Well African Americans have had to deal with rascism for years
Most people who uses the term "black" doesn't use it with any intention to be racist. If they truly are racists, they would more likely use the N word.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 06:39:06 PM
& EJ, that ethnic group you don't believe exists? Remember that while your ancestors (white & black) were savaging each other in endless blood feuds, & were still hunter-gatherers, mine were Priests in the Temple of Solomon. Don't try to lecture me, you little piss-ant. If you're so proud of being Black, & want to deny my ethnic Jewishness, you should go to DR Congo & savage it out in their brutal civil war. Or Hell, why not just go to South Central LA & savage it out in the gang wars, along w/ all the other Black males age 15-24 that die due to other Black males age 15-24 (the single largest cause of death for Black American males of that age group)?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2013, 07:36:19 PM
& EJ, that ethnic group you don't believe exists? Remember that while your ancestors (white & black) were savaging each other in endless blood feuds, & were still hunter-gatherers, mine were Priests in the Temple of Solomon.

Effectively making his ancestors smarter than yours. They weren't dumb enough to waste time worshipping an invisible man in the sky.

Don't try to lecture me, you little piss-ant. If you're so proud of being Black, & want to deny my ethnic Jewishness, you should go to DR Congo & savage it out in their brutal civil war. Or Hell, why not just go to South Central LA & savage it out in the gang wars, along w/ all the other Black males age 15-24 that die due to other Black males age 15-24 (the single largest cause of death for Black American males of that age group)?

Hah, total racist meltdown.

EJ doesn't, so that's why I asked him.

Oh, EJ isn't people, silly.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 08:05:18 PM
Meltdown yes. Racist, no. Its not racist when its true. Re: the atheist dig, you can bet that his primitive ancestors did believe in gods. Atheism is a new concept, & hasn't taken the Earth by storm. As to the intelligence of atheism, the only response is that someone who believes that the universe just came about by accident is not the sharpest knife in the rack.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2013, 08:41:46 PM
Meltdown yes. Racist, no. Its not racist when its true.

The term "racism" has nothing to do with the validity of your argument. What you said isn't true, anyway.

Re: the atheist dig, you can bet that his primitive ancestors did believe in gods. Atheism is a new concept, & hasn't taken the Earth by storm. As to the intelligence of atheism, the only response is that someone who believes that the universe just came about by accident is not the sharpest knife in the rack.

Right, because it is much smarter to think an entity that has always existed brought the universe into being makes much more intellectual sense than simply the universe always existing. You don't believe in an all powerful entity because you're intelligent, you do because your parents gave you a book that said if you don't you'll be punished for eternity. Kind of sadistic, really.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 08:44:59 PM
Jews don't believe in Hell. And my family was non-observant. Most of my life I too was Jewish only ethnically. I made Baal Teshuva 9 yrs ago.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 08:52:41 PM
Incidentally, if you doubt the statistic re: young black men, then you prove me wrong. The truth is the truth. Any good sociology text will corroborate my statement.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2013, 09:06:47 PM
Meltdown yes. Racist, no. Its not racist when its true. Re: the atheist dig, you can bet that his primitive ancestors did believe in gods. Atheism is a new concept, & hasn't taken the Earth by storm. As to the intelligence of atheism, the only response is that someone who believes that the universe just came about by accident is not the sharpest knife in the rack.
And why couldn't it have? And even if there is a creative force who created the universe, how can you be so sure it's Yahweh?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 09:08:47 PM
Why couldn't what have done what?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2013, 09:10:23 PM
Why couldn't the universe just have come about by accident?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 09:14:35 PM
I'm not trying to prove Judaism. I'm only arguing that proposing the universe just got here is like saying the watch you found had no maker. Lets not get into which religion has it right. Frankly, I know what God has revealed to the Jews. What he did or didn't reveal to Gentiles is above my pay grade.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2013, 09:18:59 PM
The universe doesn't necessarily need to have a maker. It might just as well have come about by some unknown natural process.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 09:21:42 PM
If the universe was created according to some fundamental laws then it would not need to be random.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Снупс on December 08, 2013, 09:23:22 PM
I'm only arguing that proposing the universe just got here is like saying the watch you found had no maker.

That's a horrible argument, though, no matter what way you try to present it. There is no reason to believe things couldn't have come about naturally; just because there's an analogy for something doesn't make it true.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 09:25:08 PM
I'm not trying to prove Judaism. I'm only arguing that proposing the universe just got here is like saying the watch you found had no maker. Lets not get into which religion has it right. Frankly, I know what God has revealed to the Jews. What he did or didn't reveal to Gentiles is above my pay grade.

You claim to know what god revealed to the Jews, but since the sources are extremely prone to bias and exaggeration, to say you "know" would be a massive overstatement.

RE: You being racist-You derogatory and inflammatory towards Arabs show you clearly are racist.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 09:26:14 PM
Theoretically possible. Statistically highly unlikely. For every single atom to be just right even on Earth to allow for intelligent life is a 1 in several million chance. That it happened elsewhere also? Much harder to conceive. But, I weary of the battle since neither of us is likely to win the other over to our point of view. What say we change the topic?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 09:32:30 PM
Theoretically possible. Statistically highly unlikely. For every single atom to be just right even on Earth to allow for intelligent life is a 1 in several million chance. That it happened elsewhere also? Much harder to conceive. But, I weary of the battle since neither of us is likely to win the other over to our point of view. What say we change the topic?

You are making up statistics now. You must be truly desperate.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 08, 2013, 09:33:09 PM
Theoretically possible. Statistically highly unlikely. For every single atom to be just right even on Earth to allow for intelligent life is a 1 in several million chance.

What data did you use to make this claim? I want to view it.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 08, 2013, 09:39:43 PM
Science may not have an answer for the origin of the universe, but saying "God did it" is not only the easiest way to explain it, but I think it's also a very cheap and lazy way, and it doesn't make it true.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 08, 2013, 09:40:55 PM
If the universe was created according to some fundamental laws then it would not need to be random.

The universe is random within a set of laws.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 08, 2013, 10:24:35 PM
I'm not trying to prove Judaism. I'm only arguing that proposing the universe just got here is like saying the watch you found had no maker.

we know the watch had a maker because we've seen watches before and know them to be man made.

It wouldn't surprise me if the first sundial however was natural.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 10:27:09 PM
If the universe was created according to some fundamental laws then it would not need to be random.

The universe is random within a set of laws.



Sure, and that is different than an accident.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 08, 2013, 10:29:26 PM
If the universe was created according to some fundamental laws then it would not need to be random.

The universe is random within a set of laws.



Sure, and that is different than an accident.

Why?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 10:48:42 PM
Accidents are unanticipated. If you have a set of laws that can predict the set of possible outcomes and each one in the set I s arrived at by a causal set of events then it would be an anticipated possibility.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 08, 2013, 10:53:11 PM
Accidents are unanticipated. If you have a set of laws that can predict the set of possible outcomes and each one in the set I s arrived at by a causal set of events then it would be an anticipated possibility.

So who anticipated it?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 08, 2013, 10:59:16 PM
The vast majority of people have always believed in a deity or deities. I don't need sources to continue to do what humans have always done. It is the atheist who is proposing that I reject belief in the guiding philosophy of my people for the last 5,000+ yrs. I suggest that the onus of proof is on the atheist. As far as making up statistics, I don't think I'm stretching or being desperate when I say that all the universe happening by accident is unlikely. Ever play 52 Pickup?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 11:02:50 PM
I would never disagree that there is strong or good chance the universe would unfold in the way it did. I would also never claim a statistic falsely to prop up my argument.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 08, 2013, 11:03:23 PM
Accidents are unanticipated. If you have a set of laws that can predict the set of possible outcomes and each one in the set I s arrived at by a causal set of events then it would be an anticipated possibility.

So who anticipated it?

What did: the laws of physics.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 08, 2013, 11:05:42 PM
Accidents are unanticipated. If you have a set of laws that can predict the set of possible outcomes and each one in the set I s arrived at by a causal set of events then it would be an anticipated possibility.

Why do laws have to predict the set of possible outcomes?

The theory of quantum mechanics relies on the fact that you can't predict it's outcome but it's bounded by a set of laws.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 08, 2013, 11:09:29 PM
Accidents are unanticipated. If you have a set of laws that can predict the set of possible outcomes and each one in the set I s arrived at by a causal set of events then it would be an anticipated possibility.

So who anticipated it?

What did: the laws of physics.

How did an insentient concept anticipate something?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 08, 2013, 11:10:48 PM
The vast majority of people have always believed in a deity or deities.
and presumably you believe that the vast majority of those people are wrong at least in their choice of deities?

I don't need sources to continue to do what humans have always done. It is the atheist who is proposing that I reject belief in the guiding philosophy of my people for the last 5,000+ yrs.
yes, go out, eat shellfish, have fun.

I suggest that the onus of proof is on the atheist. As far as making up statistics, I don't think I'm stretching or being desperate when I say that all the universe happening by accident is unlikely. Ever play 52 Pickup?
If there's enough planets in the universe then the chances of one spawning life could actually be very high no matter what the chances of life occurring. You just need enough planets and enough time.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Vindictus on December 08, 2013, 11:42:46 PM
Theoretically possible. Statistically highly unlikely. For every single atom to be just right even on Earth to allow for intelligent life is a 1 in several million chance. That it happened elsewhere also? Much harder to conceive. But, I weary of the battle since neither of us is likely to win the other over to our point of view. What say we change the topic?

Even assuming this random figure, life would have to happen somewhere and who is to say Earth isn't it?

Also, abiogenesis doesn't require "every single atom to be just right".
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 12:00:16 AM
I didn't make up a statistic. I merely said the odds are about as likely as winning the Iowa lottery (please play responsibly). :)  If I'd wanted to make that up, I'd have used real numbers. As re: the majority of the world being wrong about its choice of deity, neither I nor any other Jew ever said that. I know what God has revealed to us, & how I must live to please him. What he may or may not have revealed to Gentiles is beyond my capacity to know. I can't evaluate non-Jewish revelation, except to see how it makes sense w/ what we have.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 09, 2013, 12:20:23 AM
I didn't make up a statistic. I merely said the odds are about as likely as winning the Iowa lottery (please play responsibly).

Yes, that is called making up a statistic. I was under the impression most Jews are college educated.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 09, 2013, 12:58:34 AM
Accidents are unanticipated. If you have a set of laws that can predict the set of possible outcomes and each one in the set I s arrived at by a causal set of events then it would be an anticipated possibility.

Why do laws have to predict the set of possible outcomes?

The theory of quantum mechanics relies on the fact that you can't predict it's outcome but it's bounded by a set of laws.

Quantum mechanics does not predict a single outcome, but it definitely predicts the set of possible outcomes.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 01:49:37 AM
Like I said, I was making a general statement. Making up a statistic would be saying something like '1 in 6,596,312 chance'. But if you prefer, drop numbers. I believe the odds are small that an ordered universe could come from nothing. Like I said, ever play 52 Pickup? You believe otherwise. Since theism is the default position of most people in the world, the onus is on the atheist to prove us wrong. Ultimately, the question can't be resolved w/ certainty, obviously. And yes, to answer your implied question, I have 2 degrees & a graduate degree, thank you.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 09, 2013, 01:52:40 AM
Like I said, I was making a general statement. Making up a statistic would be saying something like '1 in 6,596,312 chance'. But if you prefer, drop numbers. I believe the odds are small that an ordered universe could come from nothing. Like I said, ever play 52 Pickup? You believe otherwise. Since theism is the default position of most people in the world, the onus is on the atheist to prove us wrong. Ultimately, the question can't be resolved w/ certainty, obviously. And yes, to answe your implied question, I have 2 degrees & a graduate degree, thank you.

Ah, in that case I have two graduate degrees and a doctorate. I mean, if you're going to make shit up, might as well do it full steam ahead, eh? Look, your posting history paints the picture for me. Your incessant trolling isn't even amusing anymore.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 01:57:44 AM
Well, if I were a complete fool, I would give you the name of the institution, my Gentile name, & date of graduations. But I'm not such a fool. Believe me or not as you choose. I don't need to prove anything to you. As for trolling, that's a very subjective thing to say.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on December 09, 2013, 02:01:19 AM
Your post history is sort of like a computer driver related discussion I had with PizzaPlanet and Parsifal. I mean, I had no idea what I was talking about, and they knew that, but did I know that? Looking back on it I know that, but I didn't know that at the time. One day you'll look back on this discussion and think to yourself "well, I didn't know it at the time, but I was dumb, and everyone knew it but me."
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 02:02:58 AM
Well, alrighty then! That's pretty poor sport, even from you. If you don't wish to continue a discussion, you may say so. Insults are unnecessary. The argument is unwinnable for either of us, since winning would entail one's interlocutor accepting certain premises that he won't by definition.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 02:19:25 AM
As far as the accusations of racism, your point is? I have said nothing untrue. Fine, call them Arabs. The fact is they want Israel destroyed, & have tried doing it 5 times. So no, I don't trust them, & it is my right to choose who I associate w/. & frankly, if I want to call them names, that's also my choice. Let them stop blowing shit up, & then maybe I'll treat them w/ respect.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 09, 2013, 02:35:59 AM
The act is starting to unravel, Yaakov.  It was fun while it lasted.  :(
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 02:37:49 AM
Ah, ok.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 02:39:32 AM
& now my damn feet hurt! I'm going to need the ice packs.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 02:47:37 AM
Sorry, I know that sounded a bit random. But I have poor circulation in my lower extremities, which causes considerable pain.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 09, 2013, 02:49:33 AM
Like I said, I was making a general statement. Making up a statistic would be saying something like '1 in 6,596,312 chance'. But if you prefer, drop numbers. I believe the odds are small that an ordered universe could come from nothing. Like I said, ever play 52 Pickup? You believe otherwise. Since theism is the default position of most people in the world, the onus is on the atheist to prove us wrong. Ultimately, the question can't be resolved w/ certainty, obviously. And yes, to answer your implied question, I have 2 degrees & a graduate degree, thank you.

Well for someone with so many degrees you seem to have a terrible understanding of how proof works. Let me help you: it is impossible to conclusively prove something does not exist. That being said, I have never experienced a conclusively supernatural event in my life, humans are clinically proven to create false positives in their cognition, humans are prone to wishful thinking and neuroses as well. Based on these facts, it seems plausible that humans imagine supernatural beings and events, and this seems much more plausible than there being a short period of time when a god intervened and no longer does.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 02:54:03 AM
I agree. You can't prove a negative. & in this case, proving the positive is also impossible. Allow me to kindly point out that nowhere have I advocated you believing in God. What a non-Jew believes or does not believe is again, above my pay grade.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 09, 2013, 03:19:27 AM
I agree. You can't prove a negative. & in this case, proving the positive is also impossible. Allow me to kindly point out that nowhere have I advocated you believing in God. What a non-Jew believes or does not believe is again, above my pay grade.

Proving the positive is not impossible and of course for God, it would be trivially easy to do so. For example he could rearrange the stars before my eyes to say "sup"? Or he could destroy the universe before my eyes, while keeping me alive, and then recreate it perfectly. Both of these things would make me believe.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 03:26:07 AM
God could prove His existence. I can't, was the point I was trying to make. Why God doesn't do that is also above my pay grade. I have heard various answers by Jewish & non-Jewish authorities, & by non-religious authorities. None of them have ever satisfied me. @ my age, & the life I've lived, I'm prepared to take some things on faith. I understand people who don't, though.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Снупс on December 09, 2013, 03:30:22 AM
Since theism is the default position of most people in the world, the onus is on the atheist to prove us wrong.

That's not true, though. You want us to prove something doesn't exist. That's not how it works; you need to prove something does exist, otherwise we shouldn't simply assume it does.

That's the equivalent of "I have superpowers", "prove it", "you can't prove I don't!"
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 03:38:01 AM
I agree. You can't prove a negative. But I don't feel in any sense obligated to prove that God exists. I can give you reasons to think it possible, even likely, that God exists. But not certainly.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Vindictus on December 09, 2013, 03:38:11 AM
People are born believing in nothing, so I would say that the default position is agnosticism.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 03:43:14 AM
Well, babies also don't know algebra, but not knowing it (or even that it exists) does not leave one to say, 'I don't know if algebra exists.'
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 03:47:16 AM
Granted, analogies only work so far. Algebra does exist in a logical format. I believe God does, too. But we get back to the 'Who caused God?' question. The answer, to exist is better than not to exist. But the Ontological Argument, while perhaps the best, is not foolproof.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 09, 2013, 04:11:21 AM
The ontological argument is just a silly word game.  It doesn't prove anything, and I've never understood why the academic world treats it as anything more than a joke.

And Yaakov, for what has to be the tenth time, would you please stop fucking multiposting?  And don't try that bullshit line about your phone not being able to do it again, because your posts are all different lengths.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 04:30:52 AM
Yes, I admit, I did double post unnecessarily there. You can tell when its due to phone limitations when a message gets chopped mid-sentence. This was not the case here. As re: the Ontological Argument, your opinion that it is a word game doesn't make it such. Opinions are like a--holes. Everyone's got one & they're all different. The argument can be used in a variety of ways. For example, lack of belief in hell as firey torment largely comes from this. If hell is non-being rather than firey torment, then the more evil you do, the less existence you have. Too much of that means that upon your death, your soul ceases to exist. Far worse than hell as firey torment, that.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 09, 2013, 05:15:36 AM
Just so I am on the same page, is the ontological argument the same as the Kalam Cosmological Argument?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 09, 2013, 07:51:53 AM
I didn't make up a statistic. I merely said the odds are about as likely as winning the Iowa lottery (please play responsibly). :)  If I'd wanted to make that up, I'd have used real numbers.
the thought occurs that someone wins almost every week.

Well, babies also don't know algebra, but not knowing it (or even that it exists) does not leave one to say, 'I don't know if algebra exists.'

You go to school and a teacher proves to you that algebra does exist and how it works.

You go to church and the man tells you to trust him without evidence.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 09, 2013, 08:01:43 AM
Accidents are unanticipated. If you have a set of laws that can predict the set of possible outcomes and each one in the set I s arrived at by a causal set of events then it would be an anticipated possibility.

Why do laws have to predict the set of possible outcomes?

The theory of quantum mechanics relies on the fact that you can't predict it's outcome but it's bounded by a set of laws.

Quantum mechanics does not predict a single outcome, but it definitely predicts the set of possible outcomes.

Explain to me the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. It's premise is based on the fact that you can't be certain.

A 'set' of possible outcomes. What is that set? There is a probability, within quantum mechanics, that I could transport  and sit beside you while your reading this. That probability is extremely small to the point where it's never gonna happen, but the possibility is still there.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Vindictus on December 09, 2013, 08:04:42 AM
Well, babies also don't know algebra, but not knowing it (or even that it exists) does not leave one to say, 'I don't know if algebra exists.'

That would be the default position of someone who never encountered algebra, yes.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 09, 2013, 08:11:47 AM
Accidents are unanticipated. If you have a set of laws that can predict the set of possible outcomes and each one in the set I s arrived at by a causal set of events then it would be an anticipated possibility.

Why do laws have to predict the set of possible outcomes?

The theory of quantum mechanics relies on the fact that you can't predict it's outcome but it's bounded by a set of laws.

Quantum mechanics does not predict a single outcome, but it definitely predicts the set of possible outcomes.

Explain to me the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. It's premise is based on the fact that you can't be certain.

It's more about there being an amount of uncertainty in the relation between two quantities; the most famous being position and velocity. The most accurately you know the position of a quanta, the more uncertain you will be regarding its position and vice versa. But it is possible to know an approximate value of these two quantities.

Quote
A 'set' of possible outcomes. What is that set? There is a probability, within quantum mechanics, that I could transport  and sit beside you while your reading this. That probability is extremely small to the point where it's never gonna happen, but the possibility is still there.



The set, if completely counted would be extremely large, no doubt, but countable nonetheless. I am not sure what you are getting at.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 09, 2013, 03:13:23 PM
Well, this part of the argument is beyond me. I did the minimal science & mathematics studies in college, & none in grad school. So I shall simply watch this part of the debate, & try to look informed.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 09, 2013, 08:41:14 PM

It's more about there being an amount of uncertainty in the relation between two quantities; the most famous being position and velocity. The most accurately you know the position of a quanta, the more uncertain you will be regarding its position and vice versa. But it is possible to know an approximate value of these two quantities.

There's a big difference between velocity and momentum in quantum mechanics.

The Heinsberg uncertainty principle is similar to what you've describe however it's the measurement of momentum and position that's uncertain. The more you know the likely position of a particle the less you know the likelihood of it's momentum.

Quantum mechanics deals with probability, not certainty, you can't 'predict' it.

The set, if completely counted would be extremely large, no doubt, but countable nonetheless. I am not sure what you are getting at.

I'm trying to explain that there are an infinite number of 'sets' that could apply to a quantum system, it's unpredictable. Schrodingers cat is a prime example, until you 'measure' the system you can't predict weather the cat is alive or dead. It's unpredictable.

Turbulance and a chaotic system is another example of a system that's unpredictable within the laws of physics.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spoon on December 10, 2013, 03:08:21 AM
a chaotic system isn't unpredictable. There is no randomness in chaos theory.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 10, 2013, 07:48:19 AM
a chaotic system isn't unpredictable. There is no randomness in chaos theory.

You've got to elaborate here, because I always thought deterministic chaos was unpredictable.

I don't think I've said anything about randomness being in chaos theory.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 10, 2013, 08:00:52 AM

I'm trying to explain that there are an infinite number of 'sets' that could apply to a quantum system, it's unpredictable. Schrodingers cat is a prime example, until you 'measure' the system you can't predict weather the cat is alive or dead. It's unpredictable.

Turbulance and a chaotic system is another example of a system that's unpredictable within the laws of physics.

That's just because the science isn't refined enough yet.

(or at least that's my take on it)
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spoon on December 10, 2013, 01:25:56 PM
a chaotic system isn't unpredictable. There is no randomness in chaos theory.

You've got to elaborate here, because I always thought deterministic chaos was unpredictable.

I don't think I've said anything about randomness being in chaos theory.

I define predictable as "without randomness". If something is unpredictable, that means there is randomness involved. It might not be practical to try and make predictions in a chaotic system, but even chaotic systems follow laws.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: man-bear-man on December 10, 2013, 05:54:39 PM
I don't know if I'm going to vote because there is no Agnostic option.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 10, 2013, 06:03:18 PM

It's more about there being an amount of uncertainty in the relation between two quantities; the most famous being position and velocity. The most accurately you know the position of a quanta, the more uncertain you will be regarding its position and vice versa. But it is possible to know an approximate value of these two quantities.

There's a big difference between velocity and momentum in quantum mechanics.

The Heinsberg uncertainty principle is similar to what you've describe however it's the measurement of momentum and position that's uncertain. The more you know the likely position of a particle the less you know the likelihood of it's momentum.

Quantum mechanics deals with probability, not certainty, you can't 'predict' it.

The set, if completely counted would be extremely large, no doubt, but countable nonetheless. I am not sure what you are getting at.

I'm trying to explain that there are an infinite number of 'sets' that could apply to a quantum system, it's unpredictable. Schrodingers cat is a prime example, until you 'measure' the system you can't predict weather the cat is alive or dead. It's unpredictable.

Turbulance and a chaotic system is another example of a system that's unpredictable within the laws of physics.

You can predict the probability of certain events occurring and given a large enough system in time or space, you can assert that an event is statistically certain to take place.  This is the type of prediction I maintain could be made about the spontaneous creation of the universe.  As Roundy passive aggressively pointed out, there would be no one around to make the prediction, but as a metaphysical possibility I think it stands that predicting a probable outcome, and given a system that makes the occurrence a statistical likelihood, renders it non-accidental.  This might degenerate in to a semantic discussion of accidental, which is fine, I just wanted to clarify my original point.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on December 11, 2013, 07:48:38 AM
I define predictable as "without randomness". If something is unpredictable, that means there is randomness involved. It might not be practical to try and make predictions in a chaotic system, but even chaotic systems follow laws.

Well I think you're one of the few who defines it that way (in a mathematical sense).

You can predict the probability of certain events occurring and given a large enough system in time or space, you can assert that an event is statistically certain to take place.  This is the type of prediction I maintain could be made about the spontaneous creation of the universe.  As Roundy passive aggressively pointed out, there would be no one around to make the prediction, but as a metaphysical possibility I think it stands that predicting a probable outcome, and given a system that makes the occurrence a statistical likelihood, renders it non-accidental.  This might degenerate in to a semantic discussion of accidental, which is fine, I just wanted to clarify my original point.

My problem was with the fact that you need a set of laws to predict a possible set of outcomes.

You can still have a set of laws but you will never be able to predict the outcome, quantum mechanics is a prime example. I can't argue that you could give a probable outcome but that doesn't mean it's not an accident. A nuclear power station has a probability of blowing up but I would say it's an accident if it did.

Also what happens if our type of universe that came into being had an equal but remote possibility of being created as any other universes or non-existence? Is it an accident then?

What determines that probability? I would argue that in order to know that probability you would need to be independent of the universe itself, because anything you measure or interact with within the universe will influence the outcome and the probability you're trying to measure (which is shown to be the case in quantum mechanics).

I can't see how you can say the universe was created by accident or vice versa.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 17, 2013, 10:29:33 PM
3 orthographic errors. I don't have to prove anything more than I have. I have given you 6 sources now, & explained thoroughly. Since all Jews consider themselves an ethnic group, anyone who disagrees is duty-bound to prove us wrong. Its that simple.
Well maybe those 6 people hapen to be morons!!!
John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans black?
Uhh, what people are you meeting that don't like the term "black"?
EJ doesn't, so that's why I asked him.

John, why is it all right to call Europeans and Americans white, but not all right to call Africans and African Americans black?
Well African Americans have had to deal with rascism for years
Most people who uses the term "black" doesn't use it with any intention to be racist. If they truly are racists, they would more likely use the N word.
Well it is rascist and us African Americans take vary grete ofence to it
& EJ, that ethnic group you don't believe exists? Remember that while your ancestors (white & black) were savaging each other in endless blood feuds, & were still hunter-gatherers, mine were Priests in the Temple of Solomon. Don't try to lecture me, you little piss-ant. If you're so proud of being Black, & want to deny my ethnic Jewishness, you should go to DR Congo & savage it out in their brutal civil war. Or Hell, why not just go to South Central LA & savage it out in the gang wars, along w/ all the other Black males age 15-24 that die due to other Black males age 15-24 (the single largest cause of death for Black American males of that age group)?
YOU RASCIST BASTERD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the flip is wrong with you never have I seen such horible flipppin rascism screw you my ancesters are intelectuels ANCIENT FLIPPIN EGYPT so flip the flip off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
& EJ, that ethnic group you don't believe exists? Remember that while your ancestors (white & black) were savaging each other in endless blood feuds, & were still hunter-gatherers, mine were Priests in the Temple of Solomon.

Effectively making his ancestors smarter than yours. They weren't dumb enough to waste time worshipping an invisible man in the sky.

Don't try to lecture me, you little piss-ant. If you're so proud of being Black, & want to deny my ethnic Jewishness, you should go to DR Congo & savage it out in their brutal civil war. Or Hell, why not just go to South Central LA & savage it out in the gang wars, along w/ all the other Black males age 15-24 that die due to other Black males age 15-24 (the single largest cause of death for Black American males of that age group)?

Hah, total racist meltdown.

EJ doesn't, so that's why I asked him.

Oh, EJ isn't people, silly.
Thank you for defending me during by absense cvs :) Also ikr he had a totel rascist meltdown ;D
Meltdown yes. Racist, no. Its not racist when its true. Re: the atheist dig, you can bet that his primitive ancestors did believe in gods. Atheism is a new concept, & hasn't taken the Earth by storm. As to the intelligence of atheism, the only response is that someone who believes that the universe just came about by accident is not the sharpest knife in the rack.
So you admit its true that my ancesters are savages?!! You make yourself come off as nothing more than an idiot and a rascist. And im not athiest but that us vary ofencive to athiests!!!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 17, 2013, 11:24:08 PM
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 17, 2013, 11:39:49 PM
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.

I thought the jury was still out on that one?

I mean we know they didn't exhibit what might be thought of as typical negroid features but thats only one subset of people regarded as black. There's still a certain amount of evidence that they might have been black as oppose to Arabic in looks.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 17, 2013, 11:49:34 PM
I had Coptic students. Direct descendents of the Egyptians, & nothing to do w/ Arabs, they denied any connection with either group, Arab or Black, now or in the past.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 18, 2013, 02:23:55 PM
I had Coptic students. Direct descendents of the Egyptians, & nothing to do w/ Arabs, they denied any connection with either group, Arab or Black, now or in the past.

I wasn't aware they were that old to have personal knowledge.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 18, 2013, 02:34:03 PM
*GRIN* Wise-ass! Seriously, though, Copts have both rich oral & written traditions that date back, in the written case, to the Christianising of Egypt under St. Mark, & even further in the case of the oral one, no one is sure how far. 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 18, 2013, 03:15:11 PM
*GRIN* Wise-ass! Seriously, though, Copts have both rich oral & written traditions that date back, in the written case, to the Christianising of Egypt under St. Mark, & even further in the case of the oral one, no one is sure how far.


I appreciate that but that's still a long time after the original Old kingdom and it's successors.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 18, 2013, 03:25:27 PM
Well, they claim to be the descendents of the people of the Old Kingdom. I can't prove that, of course. If they are though, I can assure you, they aren't black. My own eyes tell me that, aside from what they themselves say. I guess that as far as proof goes, as w/ so much that is human, you're going to have a hard time finding 100% proof.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 18, 2013, 03:31:29 PM
Well, they claim to be the descendents of the people of the Old Kingdom. I can't prove that, of course. If they are though, I can assure you, they aren't black. My own eyes tell me that, aside from what they themselves say. I guess that as far as proof goes, as w/ so much that is human, you're going to have a hard time finding 100% proof.

I know they aren't black.

I also know that pre-old kingdom egyptians have been verified to be of nubian descent.

I don't however know the ethnicity of those in the region between then and the christian era or when it changed.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 18, 2013, 11:33:51 PM
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 18, 2013, 11:35:03 PM
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 19, 2013, 12:01:38 AM
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.
I just told you they were African American
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Socker on December 19, 2013, 12:03:38 AM
This is an interesting topic to discuss, but it's no fun when EJ and Yaakov keep swinging it back to race. That's not what this thread is about.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 19, 2013, 12:05:29 AM
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.
I just told you they were African American

And I just told you, you're wrong.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 19, 2013, 12:06:18 AM
This is an interesting topic to discuss, but it's no fun when EJ and Yaakov keep swinging it back to race. That's not what this thread is about.
Well you can thank yakoov for making it that way ::)
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.
I just told you they were African American

And I just told you, you're wrong.
Prove that im wrong
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 19, 2013, 12:07:28 AM
Ancient Egyptians lived in America? What a thought!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 19, 2013, 12:15:34 AM
This is an interesting topic to discuss, but it's no fun when EJ and Yaakov keep swinging it back to race. That's not what this thread is about.
Well you can thank yakoov for making it that way ::)
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.
I just told you they were African American

And I just told you, you're wrong.
Prove that im wrong

Prove that you're right.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 19, 2013, 09:00:34 PM
And this is why we can't have nice things...
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Tintagel on December 19, 2013, 09:09:10 PM
Atheist.  I come from a fairly fundamentalist christian household, though.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 19, 2013, 09:15:30 PM
Ancient Egyptians lived in America? What a thought!
Of corse not who the heck said that?
This is an interesting topic to discuss, but it's no fun when EJ and Yaakov keep swinging it back to race. That's not what this thread is about.
Well you can thank yakoov for making it that way ::)
Except that the ancient Egyptians, or their descendents the Copts of today, were not and are not black.
First of all African American not "black." And only excep they were. The egyptiens were AFRICAN ... so ... you do the math

well whatever else they were I can guarantee you they weren't African American.
I just told you they were African American

And I just told you, you're wrong.
Prove that im wrong

Prove that you're right.
Let me put it simpley:

Egyptiens are people from Egypt...

...Egypt is in Africa...

...so there AFRICAN...

Dont think I could put it more simpeley there ::)
And this is why we can't have nice things...
What do you mean?
Atheist.  I come from a fairly fundamentalist christian household, though.
I dont beleive I have seen you before. Hello and Welcome to FES! :D
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 19, 2013, 09:21:47 PM
Let me put it simpley:

Egyptiens are people from Egypt...

...Egypt is in Africa...

...so there AFRICAN...

Dont think I could put it more simpeley there ::)

Thats an entirely different thing to african american.

Allow me to post pictures of a couple of "africans"

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Kevin_Pietersen.jpg)

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSV7F_x0IW-66jGuCJl390Euj7mUe4iL5PPWYKVAsIw3P0txoLo)

and one last one

(http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Robert_Mugabe_-_2009.jpg/220px-Robert_Mugabe_-_2009.jpg)

none of these people are "american", all of them are "african".

Neither of those things are what Yaak and myself were discussing.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Tintagel on December 19, 2013, 09:29:23 PM
I dont beleive I have seen you before. Hello and Welcome to FES! :D

Thanks.  I was a regular on the other site but just arrived here recently.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 19, 2013, 09:40:57 PM
12 orthographic errors.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 19, 2013, 09:43:32 PM
All black people are African Americans, why is this hard to understand?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 19, 2013, 11:24:50 PM
12 orthographic errors.

Good grief.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 20, 2013, 12:38:34 AM
Let me put it simpley:

Egyptiens are people from Egypt...

...Egypt is in Africa...

...so there AFRICAN...

Dont think I could put it more simpeley there ::)

Thats an entirely different thing to african american.

Allow me to post pictures of a couple of "africans"

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0a/Kevin_Pietersen.jpg)

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSV7F_x0IW-66jGuCJl390Euj7mUe4iL5PPWYKVAsIw3P0txoLo)

and one last one

(http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Robert_Mugabe_-_2009.jpg/220px-Robert_Mugabe_-_2009.jpg)

none of these people are "american", all of them are "african".

Neither of those things are what Yaak and myself were discussing.
First of all the first one is simpeley a white man who lives in Africa (a desendint of the invaers) and mumar gadafy was a moslem who ruled an African countrey and the last one is an ethnic African American. And I never said egyptiens were Americans what kinda moron would say that. I was simpeley saying egyptiens were African American
I dont beleive I have seen you before. Hello and Welcome to FES! :D

Thanks.  I was a regular on the other site but just arrived here recently.
Thats cool :)
12 orthographic errors.
Yeah yakoov how about you actueley respond to my statment ::)
All black people are African Americans, why is this hard to understand?
Black is a raceial slur and it is vary ofencive. We are called AFRICAN AMERICANS ::)
12 orthographic errors.

Good grief.
*sigh*
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 20, 2013, 12:43:33 AM
15 orthographic errors.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Blanko on December 20, 2013, 12:55:00 AM
EJ isn't a troll, he's just black.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 20, 2013, 01:13:06 AM
First of all the first one is simpeley a white man who lives in Africa (a desendint of the invaers) and mumar gadafy was a moslem who ruled an African countrey and the last one is an ethnic African American.
All three were born in Africa, all three are African. The question is which of these three races, or possibly another one, were the egyptians part of.

And I never said egyptiens were Americans what kinda moron would say that. I was simpeley saying egyptiens were African American

what is it about the "american" part of "african american" you don't understand?

You can't be african american unless you are an american of african descent, that would be like me claiming to be anglo-american when I'm english.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Tintagel on December 20, 2013, 01:15:47 AM
what is it about the "american" part of "african american" you don't understand?

(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/DontFeedTheTrolls2.jpeg)
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 20, 2013, 01:16:34 AM
what is it about the "american" part of "african american" you don't understand?

(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/DontFeedTheTrolls2.jpeg)
no
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 20, 2013, 01:33:47 AM
15 orthographic errors.
Once again yakoov perpetates ignorence ::)
EJ isn't a troll, he's just black.
I know im not a troll :) but second of all I would prefer to not be called by a raceiel slur im AFRICAN AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
First of all the first one is simpeley a white man who lives in Africa (a desendint of the invaers) and mumar gadafy was a moslem who ruled an African countrey and the last one is an ethnic African American.
All three were born in Africa, all three are African. The question is which of these three races, or possibly another one, were the egyptians part of.
The egyptiens are African American
And I never said egyptiens were Americans what kinda moron would say that. I was simpeley saying egyptiens were African American

what is it about the "american" part of "african american" you don't understand?

You can't be african american unless you are an american of african descent, that would be like me claiming to be anglo-american when I'm english.


Okay watever African African ::) big dealio
what is it about the "american" part of "african american" you don't understand?

(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/DontFeedTheTrolls2.jpeg)
Well gues whos on my shitlist
what is it about the "american" part of "african american" you don't understand?

(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/DontFeedTheTrolls2.jpeg)
no
Proves that your a troll
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 20, 2013, 01:49:36 AM
The egyptiens are African American

the ancient Egyptians may or may not have been racially African. that was the debate. there's a lack of evidence either way, pre old kingdom inhabitants were racially African but post dynastic Egypt they were not the bit in the middle was what we were debating.


Okay watever African African ::) big dealio

It is quite a big deal to them, if you'd spoken to many Africans, from actual Africa, you'd know. It's fairly offensive, as offensive as referring to me as anglo-american when I'm not. Almost racist.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 20, 2013, 02:29:35 AM
12 orthographic errors.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Tau on December 20, 2013, 03:15:53 AM
12 orthographic errors.

This insolence needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this institution with your behavior. You are a complete disgrace.  >:( >:( >:(

Seriously, though, please don't do this. It's as annoying as EJ himself
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 20, 2013, 03:18:05 AM
Tausami's right.  It's low-content posting at its worst and I think you should cut it out, Yaakov.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 20, 2013, 05:37:50 AM
*HEAVES A SIGH* Oh, very well. I was, after all, just perpetuating ignorance, as EJ called it, in this case, his ignorance of how to write in English that can be understood by anyone other than himself. Well, I guess I'll have to stop feeding the troll, since if I say anything else beyond a steady count of his orthographic errors, it only feeds into his childlike behaviour. Well, I guess that is what I get for engaging a teenager in conversation in the 1st place.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 20, 2013, 05:45:39 PM
Yaakov, do you actually understand what a troll is, or what the rest of us mean when we say that EJ is a troll?  You acknowledge that he's a troll, but at the same time seem to think that he really is as dumb and illiterate as he presents himself to be.  I'm seriously wondering if you've never heard of an Internet troll before, and are simply assuming that it's just a generic term for any stupid person.  It's not.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 20, 2013, 06:00:17 PM
I am aware that a troll is a person of average or better-than-average intelligence who pretends to be otherwise. I'm still not certain whether EJ is a genuine troll or just plain annoying. But it is fun to annoy him in either case.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DuckDodgers on December 20, 2013, 06:14:12 PM
He is a troll and you aren't annoying him, rather doing exactly as he wants you to do. 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 20, 2013, 11:44:15 PM
The egyptiens are African American

the ancient Egyptians may or may not have been racially African. that was the debate. there's a lack of evidence either way, pre old kingdom inhabitants were racially African but post dynastic Egypt they were not the bit in the middle was what we were debating.
Uh...of corse the ancient egyptiens were African Egypt is in AFRICA !!!
Okay watever African African ::) big dealio

It is quite a big deal to them, if you'd spoken to many Africans, from actual Africa, you'd know. It's fairly offensive, as offensive as referring to me as anglo-american when I'm not. Almost racist.
Im not trying to be ofencive im not rascist in ANY way 101% NOT rascist!!!
12 orthographic errors.
Low content. Youll lern someday yakoov ::)
12 orthographic errors.

This insolence needs to stop and it needs to stop right now. You are making a mockery of this institution with your behavior. You are a complete disgrace.  >:( >:( >:(

Seriously, though, please don't do this. It's as annoying as EJ himself
Ikr thank you tsunami because he is being extremeley rude and anoying. But btw im not flippin anoying dont let my scholereleley inamite you
Tausami's right.  It's low-content posting at its worst and I think you should cut it out, Yaakov.
Exacley thank you roundey. This tis how a mod is suposed to work :)
*HEAVES A SIGH* Oh, very well. I was, after all, just perpetuating ignorance, as EJ called it, in this case, his ignorance of how to write in English that can be understood by anyone other than himself. Well, I guess I'll have to stop feeding the troll, since if I say anything else beyond a steady count of his orthographic errors, it only feeds into his childlike behaviour. Well, I guess that is what I get for engaging a teenager in conversation in the 1st place.
Yakoov how about you stop being such an ignorent tool. My views may be out there to you but you need to except my views rather than acusing me of trolldom. Maybe you should stop being such a troll yakoov. All you ever do is low post!!!
Yaakov, do you actually understand what a troll is, or what the rest of us mean when we say that EJ is a troll?  You acknowledge that he's a troll, but at the same time seem to think that he really is as dumb and illiterate as he presents himself to be.  I'm seriously wondering if you've never heard of an Internet troll before, and are simply assuming that it's just a generic term for any stupid person.  It's not.
Ikr he knows deep down that I am genuine tho he still calls me a troll. lol ;D
I am aware that a troll is a person of average or better-than-average intelligence who pretends to be otherwise. I'm still not certain whether EJ is a genuine troll or just plain annoying. But it is fun to annoy him in either case.
So...you try to anoy me? Well sure looks obvous that YOUR the troll here!!!
He is a troll and you aren't annoying him, rather doing exactly as he wants you to do. 
Im not a troll so how about you lern to stop talking smack bro!!!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 21, 2013, 12:47:14 AM
Uh...of corse the ancient egyptiens were African Egypt is in AFRICA !!!

So is Libya.

The point is the ancient Egyptians may have been racially different from other Africans, and may in fact have been one of the old Semitic races similar to the Assyrians or Hyksos, or perhaps another entirely.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 03:39:39 AM
Given that the ancient Egyptians were the direct ancestors of today's Copts, who are a Semitic people (as are Arabs & Jews, although the Jewish thing gets messy), it is pretty clear that the Ancient Egyptians weren't Negroes, any more than the Copts are. They may have been a mixed group, actually, but no one can be sure of that. The ultimate question, what was an Egyptian, may never be known. We know what they were not. They weren't Arabs. They weren't Negroes. They may have been partly Semite. They may have been something that no longer exists today. It will probably always be an open question.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 21, 2013, 03:45:22 AM
Given that the ancient Egyptians were the direct ancestors of today's Copts, who are a Semitic people (as are Arabs & Jews, although the Jewish thing gets messy), it is pretty clear that the Ancient Egyptians weren't Negroes, any more than the Copts are. They may have been a mixed group, actually, but no one can be sure of that. The ultimate question, what was an Egyptian, may never be known. We know what they were not. They weren't Arabs. They weren't Negroes. They may have been partly Semite. They may have been something that no longer exists today. It will probably always be an open question.

No one calls them negroes anymore.  You are like a really tragic time traveller.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 03:50:57 AM
I only used the term because EJ gets offended by the word 'Black', & the term isn't accurate anyway. Australian Aboriginals are black. Some Micronesians are black. There are plenty of black skinned persons in the world who are NOT African, & plenty of Africans who are NOT black. Hence the term 'Negro'. Although not PC, its the only one that works.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 21, 2013, 04:25:10 AM
Black means black.  It doesn't mean African.  And I don't know what you're talking about with Negro supposedly being "the only one that works."  It's like you think that it's some kind of scientific term.  It's not.  It's literally just the Spanish/Portuguese word for black.  The only real difference between them is that Negro has a racist connotation.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 21, 2013, 04:32:35 AM
Yaakov, do you actually understand what a troll is...

lol, I think Yaakov understands what a troll is, sadaam.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 04:56:52 AM
I'm well aware that 'Negro' is not a scientifically accurate term. Neither is 'Caucasian'. I am also aware of the Spanish/Portuguese derivation of the word. The concept of 'race' is itself unscientific. Nevertheless, for the purposes of this discussion, I'm obligated to use terms the meaning of which is clear. Please realise I do NOT intend to use them to be racially offensive. That having been said, if someone chooses to be offended, that is their issue, not mine. In this conversation, I use the term 'Negro' to refer to any Black African or Black African American person, but not to other black persons, like Australian Aboriginals. The word 'African' can be used for a person of any colour or ethnicity from Africa. 'African American' will refer to a person of Negro race in America who is often called 'Black'.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 21, 2013, 05:07:47 AM
Why can't you say "Black African"?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 05:18:47 AM
EJ finds the term 'Black' offensive. Besides that, then you have to deal w/ non-Black Africans.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 21, 2013, 05:20:12 AM
EJ finds the term 'Black' offensive. Besides that, then you have to deal w/ non-Black Africans.

That was the whole point of your post, that not all Africans are black.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 05:25:22 AM
Precisely. & this is the only way I can differentiate between between persons from Africa who are black skinned & those who are not w/o offending trolls.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 21, 2013, 05:31:41 AM
Precisely. & this is the only way I can differentiate between between persons from Africa who are black skinned & those who are not w/o offending trolls.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 21, 2013, 05:33:53 AM
I think Yaakov is trolling.  There's no logical reason to worry about offending trolls rather than offending sensible people.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 05:35:12 AM
Well, if you have a way I can clearly indicate the difference between a Negro & an African of any descent w/o using the word 'Black', do enlighten me.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 21, 2013, 05:36:37 AM
As Saddam pointed out you are using the word black from Spanish.  As Alchemist pointed out, there is no logical reason to worry about offending EJ.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 05:44:00 AM
The 1st point, while true, is irrelevant, as English is littered w/ foreign words, including many from Spanish, that retain only a suggestion of their original meaning in said language, as in 'negro' meaning 'black' in colour as applied to anything vs 'Negro' referring to an ethno-racial group in English usage. Your 2nd point, however, re: offending the troll is well taken! Touche, mon frere! You win that round!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Socker on December 21, 2013, 06:28:57 AM
It would be nice if we could get back to the topic of religion, rather than if all Africans are black or whatever you two are arguing about.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 06:40:55 AM
Socker, Greeting! Well, as I indicated, Rama Set won that round! So, where were we in the discussion?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 21, 2013, 07:02:32 AM
Halfway down page 12.  That's where.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 07:11:20 AM
Ah, on my phone, we're currently on p. 58. Where are we on a computer?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 21, 2013, 08:38:59 AM
I define predictable as "without randomness". If something is unpredictable, that means there is randomness involved. It might not be practical to try and make predictions in a chaotic system, but even chaotic systems follow laws.

Well I think you're one of the few who defines it that way (in a mathematical sense).

You can predict the probability of certain events occurring and given a large enough system in time or space, you can assert that an event is statistically certain to take place.  This is the type of prediction I maintain could be made about the spontaneous creation of the universe.  As Roundy passive aggressively pointed out, there would be no one around to make the prediction, but as a metaphysical possibility I think it stands that predicting a probable outcome, and given a system that makes the occurrence a statistical likelihood, renders it non-accidental.  This might degenerate in to a semantic discussion of accidental, which is fine, I just wanted to clarify my original point.

My problem was with the fact that you need a set of laws to predict a possible set of outcomes.

You can still have a set of laws but you will never be able to predict the outcome, quantum mechanics is a prime example. I can't argue that you could give a probable outcome but that doesn't mean it's not an accident. A nuclear power station has a probability of blowing up but I would say it's an accident if it did.

Also what happens if our type of universe that came into being had an equal but remote possibility of being created as any other universes or non-existence? Is it an accident then?

What determines that probability? I would argue that in order to know that probability you would need to be independent of the universe itself, because anything you measure or interact with within the universe will influence the outcome and the probability you're trying to measure (which is shown to be the case in quantum mechanics).

I can't see how you can say the universe was created by accident or vice versa.

Follow the quote link.  This was the last on-topic post.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: jroa on December 21, 2013, 10:08:31 AM
Yaakov, I think you are a troll and you are portraying a Jewish superiority complex that is not real.  I want to argue with you, but I would just be feeding the troll.  I have no idea why people actually respond to your posts, as if they are real.  I suspect you are an alt, and you are just doing whatever you can to get under people's skin.  You started out demanding proof of the flat Earth that would support your Jewish model, and when you could not get that, you immediately started your racist trolling. 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 21, 2013, 11:04:01 AM
The 1st point, while true, is irrelevant, as English is littered w/ foreign words, including many from Spanish, that retain only a suggestion of their original meaning in said language, as in 'negro' meaning 'black' in colour as applied to anything vs 'Negro' referring to an ethno-racial group in English usage. Your 2nd point, however, re: offending the troll is well taken! Touche, mon frere! You win that round!

Strictly speaking negro would refer specifically to black sub Saharan Africans, which would rule out the Egyptians.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 02:52:36 PM
Jroa, you are certainly free to have your opinion. I'm not sure what an alt is, so I can't respond to that. As for being racist, I don't believe I have been, although I don't dispute that I've little love lost for Muslims. & given how the average Jew gets treated in Crown Heights, I'm a bit cautious w/ American Blacks as well, although that does NOT apply to African Blacks. If you choose to think I'm a troll, that is a personal issue for you to deal with, & no concern of mine.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 21, 2013, 03:48:11 PM
Uh...of corse the ancient egyptiens were African Egypt is in AFRICA !!!

So is Libya.

The point is the ancient Egyptians may have been racially different from other Africans, and may in fact have been one of the old Semitic races similar to the Assyrians or Hyksos, or perhaps another entirely.


I know the libiyens are African American. And how the heck are egyptiens Semitic?! Semitic means jewish once again your trying to claim the achevements of African Americans for your Jewish religion
Given that the ancient Egyptians were the direct ancestors of today's Copts, who are a Semitic people (as are Arabs & Jews, although the Jewish thing gets messy), it is pretty clear that the Ancient Egyptians weren't Negroes, any more than the Copts are. They may have been a mixed group, actually, but no one can be sure of that. The ultimate question, what was an Egyptian, may never be known. We know what they were not. They weren't Arabs. They weren't Negroes. They may have been partly Semite. They may have been something that no longer exists today. It will probably always be an open question.
NEGROS!!!!!!!!!!! You are a flippin rascist what a terible word to say!!!!!! Yakoov thats it you are a rascist only a rascist person would use the word negro that is vary ofencive to me as an AFRICAN AMERICAN!!!!!!!
Given that the ancient Egyptians were the direct ancestors of today's Copts, who are a Semitic people (as are Arabs & Jews, although the Jewish thing gets messy), it is pretty clear that the Ancient Egyptians weren't Negroes, any more than the Copts are. They may have been a mixed group, actually, but no one can be sure of that. The ultimate question, what was an Egyptian, may never be known. We know what they were not. They weren't Arabs. They weren't Negroes. They may have been partly Semite. They may have been something that no longer exists today. It will probably always be an open question.

No one calls them negroes anymore.  You are like a really tragic time traveller.

Ikr its pure rascism
I only used the term because EJ gets offended by the word 'Black', & the term isn't accurate anyway. Australian Aboriginals are black. Some Micronesians are black. There are plenty of black skinned persons in the world who are NOT African, & plenty of Africans who are NOT black. Hence the term 'Negro'. Although not PC, its the only one that works.
And you thought that "NEGRO" woukld be better?!! Black is alredey bad enough but NEGRO?!! RELEY?!!
Black means black.  It doesn't mean African.  And I don't know what you're talking about with Negro supposedly being "the only one that works."  It's like you think that it's some kind of scientific term.  It's not.  It's literally just the Spanish/Portuguese word for black.  The only real difference between them is that Negro has a racist connotation.
Black is a ofencive slur for African Americans
Yaakov, do you actually understand what a troll is...

lol, I think Yaakov understands what a troll is, sadaam.
Im not so sure he does ::)
I'm well aware that 'Negro' is not a scientifically accurate term. Neither is 'Caucasian'. I am also aware of the Spanish/Portuguese derivation of the word. The concept of 'race' is itself unscientific. Nevertheless, for the purposes of this discussion, I'm obligated to use terms the meaning of which is clear. Please realise I do NOT intend to use them to be racially offensive. That having been said, if someone chooses to be offended, that is their issue, not mine. In this conversation, I use the term 'Negro' to refer to any Black African or Black African American person, but not to other black persons, like Australian Aboriginals. The word 'African' can be used for a person of any colour or ethnicity from Africa. 'African American' will refer to a person of Negro race in America who is often called 'Black'.
Reley?!! Thatd be like going up to an African American person and caling them the n word and teling them it is there isue if there ofended!!! Such a rascist troll not even funny!
Why can't you say "Black African"?
AFRICAN AMERICAN!!! Black is raciel slur
EJ finds the term 'Black' offensive. Besides that, then you have to deal w/ non-Black Africans.
Because its a raciel slur why shouldent I be ofended?!! And what do you mean "have to deal" with them?!! Do you not like non AFRICAN AMERICAN Africans and its a burdan for you to talk to them?!!
EJ finds the term 'Black' offensive. Besides that, then you have to deal w/ non-Black Africans.

That was the whole point of your post, that not all Africans are black.
Black is a raciel slur stop perpatrating rascism!!!
Precisely. & this is the only way I can differentiate between between persons from Africa who are black skinned & those who are not w/o offending trolls.
Im not a troll yakoov so how about you but out. And black us a raciel slur and you just come off as. Itching but a flippin rascist!
Precisely. & this is the only way I can differentiate between between persons from Africa who are black skinned & those who are not w/o offending trolls.

Incorrect.

Ikr!
I think Yaakov is trolling.  There's no logical reason to worry about offending trolls rather than offending sensible people.
He is trolling. He is an ofencive rascist troll!!
Well, if you have a way I can clearly indicate the difference between a Negro & an African of any descent w/o using the word 'Black', do enlighten me.
Well black is raciel slur you cant flippin use it!!!
As Saddam pointed out you are using the word black from Spanish.  As Alchemist pointed out, there is no logical reason to worry about offending EJ.
Well it is ofencive and us African Americans take vary grete ofence to it!!!
The 1st point, while true, is irrelevant, as English is littered w/ foreign words, including many from Spanish, that retain only a suggestion of their original meaning in said language, as in 'negro' meaning 'black' in colour as applied to anything vs 'Negro' referring to an ethno-racial group in English usage. Your 2nd point, however, re: offending the troll is well taken! Touche, mon frere! You win that round!
Both are ofencive. African American is the only politicaley corec term
It would be nice if we could get back to the topic of religion, rather than if all Africans are black or whatever you two are arguing about.
Ikr! You can thank yakoov for turning this consarvation rascist
Socker, Greeting! Well, as I indicated, Rama Set won that round! So, where were we in the discussion?
Won what round? !!!!!!
Halfway down page 12.  That's where.
Ugh. Its been that long :P
Yaakov, I think you are a troll and you are portraying a Jewish superiority complex that is not real.  I want to argue with you, but I would just be feeding the troll.  I have no idea why people actually respond to your posts, as if they are real.  I suspect you are an alt, and you are just doing whatever you can to get under people's skin.  You started out demanding proof of the flat Earth that would support your Jewish model, and when you could not get that, you immediately started your racist trolling. 
He tis defiantley a troll. He beleives Jewish are superor even tho its a flippin RELIGION!!!
The 1st point, while true, is irrelevant, as English is littered w/ foreign words, including many from Spanish, that retain only a suggestion of their original meaning in said language, as in 'negro' meaning 'black' in colour as applied to anything vs 'Negro' referring to an ethno-racial group in English usage. Your 2nd point, however, re: offending the troll is well taken! Touche, mon frere! You win that round!

Strictly speaking negro would refer specifically to black sub Saharan Africans, which would rule out the Egyptians.


Negro is a raciel slur!!!
Jroa, you are certainly free to have your opinion. I'm not sure what an alt is, so I can't respond to that. As for being racist, I don't believe I have been, although I don't dispute that I've little love lost for Muslims. & given how the average Jew gets treated in Crown Heights, I'm a bit cautious w/ American Blacks as well, although that does NOT apply to African Blacks. If you choose to think I'm a troll, that is a personal issue for you to deal with, & no concern of mine.
More and more rascism yakoov. Why dont you go join the boys at stormfront?!! ;D
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 04:52:11 PM
55 orthographic errors. Given I'm a Jew, I'd not be welcome @ Stormfront. I'm beginning to think you're not a troll, you're just an idiot.     
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Hoppy on December 21, 2013, 05:27:08 PM
As Saddam pointed out you are using the word black from Spanish.  As Alchemist pointed out, there is no logical reason to worry about offending EJ.
This is very racist comment.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 21, 2013, 06:06:57 PM
Aside from EJ, does 'black' really have a negative connotation in the US? In Britain it's a perfectly reasonable way to refer to someone's ethnicity and is the term used on, the census forms which give you variations on 'White' (White British, White Irish etc) 'Mixed / multiple ethnic groups' 'Asian / Asian British' 'Black / African / Caribbean / Black British' and 'Other ethnic group'
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Tintagel on December 21, 2013, 06:12:57 PM
Aside from EJ, does 'black' really have a negative connotation in the US? In Britain it's a perfectly reasonable way to refer to someone's ethnicity and is the term used on, the census forms which give you variations on 'White' (White British, White Irish etc) 'Mixed / multiple ethnic groups' 'Asian / Asian British' 'Black / African / Caribbean / Black British' and 'Other ethnic group'

No.  It does not.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 06:21:50 PM
'Black' is not considered offensive, no. It is, I believe, used on census forms, as is the word 'White'. I've never met a single Black person who took exception to the term, any more than I've met a White person who objects to that term. People as individuals have their preferences, of course. I prefer the term 'Caucasian'. Better yet, I prefer to not mention my racial group, & identify w/ my ethno-religious group. When asked, I check 'White' & write in 'Jewish' in the 'other' box. Some Blacks prefer that term. Some prefer 'African-American'. Some prefer 'person of colour'. Very few use the word 'Negro'. It ultimately depends on who you are talking to. It is usually best to use whatever term that person uses to avoid causing offence.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Excelsior John on December 21, 2013, 06:46:11 PM
55 orthographic errors. Given I'm a Jew, I'd not be welcome @ Stormfront. I'm beginning to think you're not a troll, you're just an idiot.   
Well gues what yakoov: IM NETHER!!!!!!!! I am an intelect only and do not confirm to rascist bigotrey like you do. You are puluting this thred with ignorence and using raciel slurs such as "NEGRO!!!" Im begining (oh wait — nevermind I alredey knew) to think your both a troll AND a idiot
As Saddam pointed out you are using the word black from Spanish.  As Alchemist pointed out, there is no logical reason to worry about offending EJ.
This is very racist comment.
It tis rascist hank you hoppy all they even do is eternelise rascism and say its fine to ofend people as long as there African American >:(
Aside from EJ, does 'black' really have a negative connotation in the US? In Britain it's a perfectly reasonable way to refer to someone's ethnicity and is the term used on, the census forms which give you variations on 'White' (White British, White Irish etc) 'Mixed / multiple ethnic groups' 'Asian / Asian British' 'Black / African / Caribbean / Black British' and 'Other ethnic group'
Yess it vary much does "black" is universaley considered a raciel slur here in America and the corec term is "African American." Its not my falt you guys are rascist in britan
Aside from EJ, does 'black' really have a negative connotation in the US? In Britain it's a perfectly reasonable way to refer to someone's ethnicity and is the term used on, the census forms which give you variations on 'White' (White British, White Irish etc) 'Mixed / multiple ethnic groups' 'Asian / Asian British' 'Black / African / Caribbean / Black British' and 'Other ethnic group'

No.  It does not.
::) Flippin lier
'Black' is not considered offensive, no. It is, I believe, used on census forms, as is the word 'White'. I've never met a single Black person who took exception to the term, any more than I've met a White person who objects to that term. People as individuals have their preferences, of course. I prefer the term 'Caucasian'. Better yet, I prefer to not mention my racial group, & identify w/ my ethno-religious group. When asked, I check 'White' & write in 'Jewish' in the 'other' box. Some Blacks prefer that term. Some prefer 'African-American'. Some prefer 'person of colour'. Very few use the word 'Negro'. It ultimately depends on who you are talking to. It is usually best to use whatever term that person uses to avoid causing offence.
Is this a joke?!! "Black" is most certantley a raciel slur and who are you to say what we are flippin called??! We want to be known as AFRICAN AMERICAN and we will be known as that!!!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 06:57:46 PM
35 orthographic errors. This from the 'intelect' (observe the orthographic error) who can't write in an English that is readily understandable to anybody other than himself.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on December 21, 2013, 07:06:12 PM
35 orthographic errors. This from the 'intelect' (observe the orthographic error) who can't write in an English that is readily understandable to anybody other than himself.

*headdesk*

If you want to see fewer errors then stop replying to him.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Hoppy on December 21, 2013, 07:21:30 PM
35 orthographic errors. This from the 'intelect' (observe the orthographic error) who can't write in an English that is readily understandable to anybody other than himself.
His inteleck is far soopyier than yours biggit.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 21, 2013, 07:25:00 PM
Ah, what?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Socker on December 21, 2013, 08:30:17 PM
Replying to every post he makes with the number of orthographic errors doesn't make you seem intelligent or daring, it makes you seem as annoying as EJ.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 22, 2013, 05:05:31 AM
The only reason I do it @ all is because it gives me great personal satisfaction to see him hoist himself on his own pitard. Every time he opens his yap & misspells something 6 ways from Saturday he makes himself look like an even bigger ass. It's entertaining to me to point that out. I have agreed to avoid 'low content' posts, so from now on I shall only notate his orthographical errors in the context of an otherwise content rich post. As much as I don't personally re: that as necessary or even desirable (since the content distracts from pointing out what an idiot he is), I recognise forum rules, & will follow them, even when I disagree w/ them.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Tau on December 22, 2013, 05:16:49 AM
The only reason I do it @ all is because it gives me great personal satisfaction to see him hoist himself on his own pitard. Every time he opens his yap & misspells something 6 ways from Saturday he makes himself look like an even bigger ass. It's entertaining to me to point that out. I have agreed to avoid 'low content' posts, so from now on I shall only notate his orthographical errors in the context of an otherwise content rich post. As much as I don't personally re: that as necessary or even desirable (since the content distracts from pointing out what an idiot he is), I recognise forum rules, & will follow them, even when I disagree w/ them.

You are but young in the ways of the troll, my son. You will learn in time.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 22, 2013, 01:55:28 PM
The only reason I do it @ all is because it gives me great personal satisfaction to see him hoist himself on his own pitard. Every time he opens his yap & misspells something 6 ways from Saturday he makes himself look like an even bigger ass. It's entertaining to me to point that out. I have agreed to avoid 'low content' posts, so from now on I shall only notate his orthographical errors in the context of an otherwise content rich post. As much as I don't personally re: that as necessary or even desirable (since the content distracts from pointing out what an idiot he is), I recognise forum rules, & will follow them, even when I disagree w/ them.

Mother Mary and Joseph... you are something else.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 22, 2013, 02:03:29 PM
I probably had that one coming!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 22, 2013, 03:23:29 PM
The only reason I do it @ all is because it gives me great personal satisfaction to see him hoist himself on his own pitard. Every time he opens his yap & misspells something 6 ways from Saturday he makes himself look like an even bigger ass. It's entertaining to me to point that out. I have agreed to avoid 'low content' posts, so from now on I shall only notate his orthographical errors in the context of an otherwise content rich post. As much as I don't personally re: that as necessary or even desirable (since the content distracts from pointing out what an idiot he is), I recognise forum rules, & will follow them, even when I disagree w/ them.

Petard.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 22, 2013, 03:37:02 PM
I stand corrected on my own orthographic error! I wasn't certain on that one when I wrote it, to be honest. Thank you for the correction. I shan't edit the OP, as that would render the reason for these confusing.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: rottingroom on December 22, 2013, 04:37:31 PM
There is absolutely no good reason for me to think there is a God, and if he does exist then fuck him, he's a dick.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 22, 2013, 04:51:20 PM
Well, Rotting, @ least that's honest. I can appreciate that, even while disagreeing w/ it.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: rottingroom on December 22, 2013, 05:04:53 PM
Well, Rotting, @ least that's honest. I can appreciate that, even while disagreeing w/ it.

I just require sound evidence and I haven't seen anything convincing. The part about god being a dick was me basically saying that if there was evidence, then sure... I'd believe in god, but he wouldn't get an ounce of respect from me. There are millions of human beings with better morals than the god's we've heard about in holy books.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Socker on December 23, 2013, 01:59:58 AM
The only reason I do it @ all is because it gives me great personal satisfaction to see him hoist himself on his own pitard. Every time he opens his yap & misspells something 6 ways from Saturday he makes himself look like an even bigger ass. It's entertaining to me to point that out. I have agreed to avoid 'low content' posts, so from now on I shall only notate his orthographical errors in the context of an otherwise content rich post. As much as I don't personally re: that as necessary or even desirable (since the content distracts from pointing out what an idiot he is), I recognise forum rules, & will follow them, even when I disagree w/ them.
I would rather you leave it out, to be honest. Not one member of the forum has stated their appreciation of it, or says that they find it amusing. In fact, everyone has repeatedly been responding to your posts asking you to stop. I'm starting to think you're the troll.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 23, 2013, 02:33:01 AM
Well, given he's been banned for @ least a month, there won't be a need for it. Incidentally, if it bothers you all that much, even when he gets back, I'll refrain. On a happier note, whatever you all think of me (that I'm a troll, or obnoxious, or what-not), since we are on speaking terms, I want to wish you all a very merry Christmas. To you & your loved ones, may the day be filled w/ peace & joy. Be safe. I want to see you all back here afterwards!
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 23, 2013, 02:47:08 AM
Incidentally, are we really so sure that EJ was a troll? Having taught @ university in the US, I am all too familiar w/ the extremely low calibre of student produced by the nation's public high schools. He may simply be an idiot rather than a troll. He is a schmuck in either case, but do you all see my point?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 23, 2013, 03:23:30 AM
Incidentally, are we really so sure that EJ was a troll?

Yes.  We are.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 24, 2013, 11:41:24 AM
I don't know. A friend of mine reviewed this board (non-Jewish, just to make sure that that wasn't somehow colouring my view of things). She thought EJ was a schmuck & an idiot, but not a troll. If a troll is 'a person of average or above average intelligence who surfs boards to cause trouble', like derailing threads & so-forth, she thought he wasn't very good @ it. A successful troll doesn't get banned twice in 3 days! You all have more experience w/ this than I do, so I'll let your judgement of the matter stand, but it does seem odd. Incidentally, if I've been guilty of troll-like behaviour (I haven't done so intentionally, @ any rate), I offer my apology here.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 24, 2013, 12:08:07 PM
Rotting, good to see you on this board. Re: God in holy books, I have what may be a possible way forward for you on that. I'm not saying its how I think (frankly, I've not given much thought to the matter @ all), but it may help you. @ least as re: the Bible, whether you're a Jew or a Christian, & thus accept only the 1st part or both parts, it tends to be the more violent parts of the Hebrew Bible w/ which people have problems. Some liberal scholars have suggested that the Bible isn't so much a book of God's word to us as it is a book of man's words about God to his fellow man. If that's true, than you can imagine how garbled the message might be by the time it gets from God to the original writer, through the editors, on to us! I'm not saying what I believe now. I'm just sharing what some Jewish & Christian scholars have suggested, particularly in re: to earlier books of the Hebrew Bible, like Joshua, w/ its incredibly bloody-minded God. Personally, I've got no problem w/ the God of Joshua, but I know that
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 24, 2013, 12:16:26 PM
many people are disturbed by such a Deity. & many of those people consider themselves devout Jews or Christians. So scholars have developed ways to deal w/ that problem. Whether they have been successful or not is for you all to decide. I've no trouble w/ the God of Divine Wrath in the Scripture v. the God of righteousness in the Prophets. To me its flip sides of the same coin, & complimentary. But, what I just shared w/ you is a way of moving forward for someone w/ your concerns. Incidentally, merry Christmas.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 24, 2013, 01:17:32 PM
Rotting, as re: evidence for the existence of God, respectable or otherwise, well, honestly, I'm not sure there IS an answer to that which you would accept. Some things I can prove. Is the Earth round? Look @ a picture or observe mathematical proofs. But is God real? @ best I can give you probabilities. You still have a faith leap to take. If you're not inclined to do that, then nothing I or any theist says will ever be enough for you. And, unlike a Christian or a Muslim, I don't believe in Hell. & I'm not fond of judging what non-Jews have or have not been taught about the Deity. So, your belief or lack thereof is beyond my competance to evaluate. I know that none of this helps much. I'm sorry. About the multiple posts, do forgive. 2 were length problems, & 2 were different subjects. I'll be more careful in future.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Tintagel on December 24, 2013, 02:36:20 PM
Rotting, as re: evidence for the existence of God, respectable or otherwise, well, honestly, I'm not sure there IS an answer to that which you would accept. Some things I can prove. Is the Earth round? Look @ a picture or observe mathematical proofs. But is God real? @ best I can give you probabilities. You still have a faith leap to take. If you're not inclined to do that, then nothing I or any theist says will ever be enough for you. And, unlike a Christian or a Muslim, I don't believe in Hell. & I'm not fond of judging what non-Jews have or have not been taught about the Deity. So, your belief or lack thereof is beyond my competance to evaluate. I know that none of this helps much. I'm sorry. About the multiple posts, do forgive. 2 were length problems, & 2 were different subjects. I'll be more careful in future.

There isn't a mathematical proof that the earth is round, that's silly, and one cannot prove the non-existence of god.  I'd ask you why you DO believe, though.  What have you experienced that convinced you so that a god exists, while my experience has led me to the opposite conclusion.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 24, 2013, 03:20:32 PM
Re: mathematical proof for the roundness of Earth, I know the Ancient Greeks had it. The book 'Flat Earth: the History of an Infamous Idea' by Christine Garwood, published 2007 goes into it. I am NOT a mathematician by any stretch of the imagination (I despise the subject), so I won't try to explain those proofs. Perhaps someone here can. Re: why I believe in God, there are 3 reasons, none of which will likely appeal to you. 1. I find it highly unlikely that this universe in all its ordered glory just happened by accident. Just the human eyeball alone is complex enough to me to prove that something intelligent created it. 2. I'm alive. W/ all I've been through, I damn sure shouldn't be! God has truly worked miracles in my life, both medical & otherwise. 3. The following will likely be irrelevant to you, but I include it as you asked all my reasons. As a Jew, it simply does not compute to doubt what has been given us in the Hebrew Bible. The very continued existence of my people down through the centuries has
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 24, 2013, 03:28:51 PM
been due to their obedience to the laws laid down in Torah. Further, you must realise that our Faith isn't based on revelation to one man. God revealed himself to the ENTIRE nation on Mt. Sinai. Read the Book of Exodus for details. The point is that the entire nation, not just Moses, witnessed a theophany. & Jews present & future accepted Torah @ that time. When those Jews said yes to the Law, they spoke for all Jews, past, present, & future. So by doing my part, I'm simply fulfilling my part of the contract. I don't know if you get the hang of what I'm saying, but there it is. & you are right. You can't prove a negative, like the NON-existence of God.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 24, 2013, 08:25:51 PM
Why choose faith over facts, logic and reason?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 24, 2013, 08:39:55 PM
Why choose faith over facts, logic and reason?

There's no logical reason to do so.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 24, 2013, 08:46:57 PM
Why choose faith over facts, logic and reason?

You realize you are asking someone who literally believes a God would create everyone with profound flaws and then choose some of the most illiterate and warlike among them to be "The Chosen People". If you can believe that, you can literally believe anything.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Tintagel on December 24, 2013, 09:09:37 PM
Why choose faith over facts, logic and reason?

You realize you are asking someone who literally believes a God would create everyone with profound flaws and then choose some of the most illiterate and warlike among them to be "The Chosen People". If you can believe that, you can literally believe anything.

My question was one of genuine curiosity.  I don't need to belittle anyone's beliefs (and/or ethnicity) regardless of what I think the truth is. 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 24, 2013, 09:11:53 PM
Actually, Jews have ALWAYS been more literate on average, than their Gentile neighbours, simply because historically, every male, @ least, had to be able to read Hebrew. It was a requirement of the Faith. Many also read Aramaic, the language of the Talmud, & quite a few learned the language of the country in which they lived (starting w/ the Babylonian Exile & continuing in other Diaspora nations throughout history). Contrast the literacy among male Jews in Medieval Europe in Hebrew v. the 95% illiteracy rate among male non-Jews of the same time & place in any language. As for being warlike, that depends on when. In the Bronze Age, yes, but no more than those around them. Since the last Jewish-Roman War, not so much. As for my belief in God, see a few posts up. The complexity of the human eyeball alone speaks to an intelligence behind its creation. Thank you, Tintagal. Likewise, I don't mean to be nasty. Those who disagree are entitled to their beliefs, or the lack thereof.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: beardo on December 24, 2013, 09:53:51 PM
But how can you be so convinced that god is the hebrew/jewish/whatever god you think he is? For all we know, god, should he exist, might not have those properties. How can we even be sure there's only one god? Faith? Again, why choose faith?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 24, 2013, 10:58:15 PM
The simplest answer to that is the one I gave to it a few posts up, and I shall recapitulate it briefly here. I encourage you to read the Book of Exodus of the Hebrew Bible for further details, but suffice it to say that the Jewish Faith is one that does NOT depend on revelation to ONE man, be it Jesus, or Mohammed, or Bahu'allah, or Joseph Smith, Jr, or anyone else. On Mt. Sinai, Jews received a NATIONAL theophany. Read through the posts here for more on that. But the entire nation accepted the commands of Torah. When the Jews at Mt. Sinai accepted Torah, they did it for themselves and all Jews past, present, and future. My participation in Judaism is simply doing my part in fulfilling my portion of the Covenant that my ancestors accepted on my behalf. We saw God on the Holy Mountain. He did the wondrous works in those days for all the Jews, not just one. I realise that none of this is going to matter to you, you will still say that my beliefs are silly, or illogical. I disagree. I choose the leap of Faith for one simple reason. I have seen too much in my life that is explainable in no other way.

I have had too much happen to me that shouldn't have. By all rights I should have died about eight times in this life. I should have had some other very horrible things happen to me that didn't. I believe that God is the only thing that prevented that. I choose Faith because no other explanation works, in my mind. My family is not, and never has been, observant. I came to observance on my own as an adult. There simply was too much for me to accept any other explanation. God was fulfilling His part of the Covenant. Why was I not fulfilling mine? That was the question I had to answer. And answer  it I did, by choosing to fulfill my side of things. Its only fair. You may choose to disagree with me. You may choose to think I'm an idiot. But I ask you to respect my choice, as I respect yours. My brother and his wife are atheists to this day. But I believe, and I always shall.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 24, 2013, 11:10:54 PM
I respect your beliefs, for a start. I don't understand why you consider coincidences, general good luck and things you can't explain as proof, however. Today there are many things we know that we didn't know in the past, examples aren't needed, it's all around you, and there will be much more we'll know in the future. Things you may be using at the moment as personal reason to believe will probably be some of these things we will someday know, providing we don't die out as a species. Lack of knowledge, almost intentional ignorance and misinterpretation are huge in keeping faiths afloat in the modern times, and they're not decent at all.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 24, 2013, 11:15:52 PM
I appreciate your respect. I for one do not believe in luck. And I freely admit that I have no die-hard proof of God's existence or non-existence. As for things we know now that we didn't know before, and will know in the future that we don't know now, that is true enough, and needs no argument. Nevertheless, I don't see that as a reason not to believe in God.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Lemon on December 24, 2013, 11:19:47 PM
Alright then. I'll leave you there, there's not much more to discuss in the matter, at least for me.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 25, 2013, 01:14:59 AM
Actually, Jews have ALWAYS been more literate on average, than their Gentile neighbours, simply because historically, every male, @ least, had to be able to read Hebrew. It was a requirement of the Faith. Many also read Aramaic, the language of the Talmud, & quite a few learned the language of the country in which they lived (starting w/ the Babylonian Exile & continuing in other Diaspora nations throughout history). Contrast the literacy among male Jews in Medieval Europe in Hebrew v. the 95% illiteracy rate among male non-Jews of the same time & place in any language. As for being warlike, that depends on when. In the Bronze Age, yes, but no more than those around them. Since the last Jewish-Roman War, not so much. As for my belief in God, see a few posts up. The complexity of the human eyeball alone speaks to an intelligence behind its creation. Thank you, Tintagal. Likewise, I don't mean to be nasty. Those who disagree are entitled to their beliefs, or the lack thereof.

I was speaking of pre-Abrahimic Semites of the tribe that God chose as the Chosen People. They had no such requirement of their faith because it did not exist as such yet. In regards to the claim regarding the eyeball, there is quite a lot of literature describing the descent of the various eyeballs we see in Nature, some more successful than others and all obeying the same laws that the rest of descent through natural selection does. I really hope you believe in evolution, or are you a YEC?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 25, 2013, 04:56:45 AM
I assume by YEC you mean Young Earth Creationist, and NO, I am not. I do believe in micro-evolution, at least. I don't believe that we all evolved from the primordial slime as such, but I do believe that the higher primates are related to each other in some form, and that there is some linkage between the two. I am sure that eyeballs from one animal (including humans) are related to eyeballs in another animal, although I DON'T even begin to understand the science behind the matter. After Maths, the subjects I hated most was any of the Sciences. History, Philosophy, Language, Religion, that was always my strong point.

I still believe that there was a Master Creator behind the eyeball, and behind the evolution of the various animals and plants. As far as the Hebrews being illiterate, EVERYONE was illiterate at the time, so my question would be, what is your point? The only people that could read were the highest classes of any society. But since the Hebrews developed a religion and a Scripture (basically since Moses wrote the Torah), they have been highly literate.

On another note, I have never met a Jew of any variety that is a YEC. That is a strictly Christian thing, I think.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 25, 2013, 02:16:17 PM
Yet you believe the revelation at Mt Sinai is literally true. You cherry pick the Torah to suit your needs.

The Egyptians and Babylonians had sophisticated cultures at the time that God in his infinite wisdom decided that this small tribe of Semites were clearly the front runner as the best hope for mankind. As good an example of wishful thinking as I can imagine.

Just as an aside, certain elements of abiogenesis has been demonstrated to occur spontaneously in the presence of natural environmental factors.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 25, 2013, 03:39:14 PM
Not being certain what abiogenesis is, I can't respond to that. The Egyptians had an advanced culture at a certain period of time. The Babylonians did at a later period of time. Both were filled with abominable practices before God. The Hebrews living among them  had maintained their purity. The question is nothing to do with the best hope for mankind.

In fact, God often says throughout the Bible, even though you are a small, irrelevant people on a worldwide scale, I shall keep my covenant with you. He says this repeatedly in the Prophets. Why he chose us is beyond our understanding as much as it is beyond yours or anybody else's trying to figure it out. All we can say is, that is what he did.

Of course the revelation at Mt. Sinai is literally true. It would be stupid to think otherwise. It would negate the whole point of Torah, and of Judaism. As for "cherry picking", I suppose that depends very much on your point of view. What an outsider calls cherry picking, we call doing our best to determine which out of 613 Laws needs following in order of importance. For example, thou shalt do no murder seems more relevant to daily life than thou shalt not light a fire on the sabbath.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 25, 2013, 04:07:18 PM
If you believe God appeared to a nation on a mountaintop why don't you believe the Earth was created in 6 days 6,000 years ago?  Is that all of a sudden too incredible?

I also have to call you out on your view of the abominable practices of ancient Egypt and Babylon. Why do you not give them the same morally relative exoneration you give to Hebrew slave keeping?  Again you appear to be cherry picking.

As to abiogenesis-google is your friend. 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 25, 2013, 04:57:30 PM
I'm certain the Exodus story is 100%, literally true.  So certain that I'm sure Yaakov can point to some source outside of the Old Testament confirming that the Egyptians ever kept the Israelis as slaves.  I'm sure loads of archaeological evidence has been dug up supporting that scenario.

Right Yaakov?  Do you have anything?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 26, 2013, 07:11:04 AM
A thousand years is as a day to God. The Psalms. The Bible says NOTHING about how many years ago the Earth was created. It also says nothing about how many hours a day was. Since the sun was not created until the fourth day, if memory serves, and the 24 hour day comes from the Earth circling the sun, the first three days were of undetermined length. The Talmud goes into this at length.

Re: the Exodus story, the Egyptians NEVER wrote about any history that portrayed them in a bad light. However, there are references to a sudden entry of a foreign people into the Holy Land about the time that the Book of Joshua was written and the about the time the events described there occurred. Most scholars today believe that the Hebrews entered the Holy Land in both methods of slow diffusion and military maneuvering.

It is true that the events of the Exodus have not been proven definitively to date. But much of the Hebrew Bible that was once considered fanciful has been proven true. This will be eventually as well.

Regarding slavery, you fail to remember that every seven years there was the year of Jubilee, when every slave had to be offered his freedom. If he chose to stay with his master, so be it, but slaves were offered manumission every seven years. This is far different from the nations around Israel.

And given that again, the ENTIRE nation saw God, we rely on the manifest experience of 2 million people. Not just Jesus, or Mohammed, or what have you. Two million people have a hard time hallucinating the same event. And this has been passed down in written Torah and oral tradition from that day to this. You can argue semantics all you like. It fundamentally doesn't matter. I am a Jew.  My People are Chosen of God for a special purpose. I have no doubt of this.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 26, 2013, 12:33:17 PM
My People are Chosen of God for a special purpose. I have no doubt of this.

Soap?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 26, 2013, 04:38:43 PM
Quote
A thousand years is as a day to God. The Psalms. The Bible says NOTHING about how many years ago the Earth was created. It also says nothing about how many hours a day was. Since the sun was not created until the fourth day, if memory serves, and the 24 hour day comes from the Earth circling the sun, the first three days were of undetermined length. The Talmud goes into this at length.

So you are choosing which part of the Torah to take literally. Genesis is subject to metaphor and extrapolation but Exodus is a written history. Again, this is cherry picking.

How do you know the population of the Hebrews at the time of Exodus?  How do you know they were all at Mt. Sinai?  Is it just from the Torah?

So the Jews had moral slavery? Fascinating.  The jubilee only applied to Hebrew slaves. Non-Hebrew slaves could be owned permanently and bequeathed to children. I also read it was not clear whether Jewish laws concerning slaves were statutory or aspirational guidelines. So much for that. Again, why do you give Jews a free pass in morality but others cultures of antiquity are held to a rigorous standard.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 26, 2013, 10:11:36 PM
If I knew the answers on the morality or the lack thereof of slavery among the Jews, I'd be a f-----g genius, & probably the President. As far as the number, if you take 600,000 men, besides women & children, most scholars give a number @ the Exodus of app. 2 million. Obviously the use of the term 'day' can't mean anything literal when there is no Sun! I think I'm being quite historical about Genesis when I say that the 1st few creative days could have been of any length, as there was no Sun.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on December 26, 2013, 11:00:12 PM
Well, the Sun was literally Day 1 in Genesis, so. . .
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 26, 2013, 11:11:24 PM
No, it wasn't. Reread Genesis for me.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: DuckDodgers on December 27, 2013, 02:38:41 AM
It would make more sense that the length of the days before the Sun were created were the same length of days as after it was created. 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 27, 2013, 04:56:05 AM
If the definition of a day is how long it takes Earth to revolve on her axis such that all sides of her receive light from the Sun than day's length is determined by how long that takes. Before the sun existed, some other motive force must have been in play, rendering the definition, & likely the time scale, different.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 27, 2013, 07:51:33 AM
If the definition of a day is how long it takes Earth to revolve on her axis such that all sides of her receive light from the Sun than day's length is determined by how long that takes. Before the sun existed, some other motive force must have been in play, rendering the definition, & likely the time scale, different.

well given that god created night and day before the sun it makes sense that the Jews believe that the two were interlinked but not related and that the day prior to the sun was the same length.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 27, 2013, 12:09:44 PM
The fact of the matter is that Yaakov is applying two different set of criteria to his Torah reading based on how he wants his world view to appear. His genesis reading is subject to a reinterpretation of facts in metaphorical contexts which he tweaks until a realistic timeline is achieved. For exodus, it is all literal.

The deeper problem is that he is verifying the truth of the Torah with the Torah. Not much you can say to a person like that.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 02:10:09 AM
The Torah is either true or it is not . Your choice is a bit binary, really. Is there some indication from outside the Torah of the truth of the Torah? Insofar as there is historical proof that the Hebrews entered Canaan in both peaceful & conquering waves, yes. Insofar as there were disturbances in Egypt that are indicative of social unrest, yes. Could that social unrest have been a slave revolt, yes. Was it? Not enough data to tell, if you ignore the Torah as a source of info. I see no reason to do so, any more than I would ignore any other 1st hand source. Obviously, I do believe Moses wrote the Torah, rather than the 4 Source Theory of modern liberal biblical scholarship. So there you are.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 28, 2013, 03:35:31 AM
The Torah is either true or it is not . Your choice is a bit binary, really.

Um... no, that's not the case at all.  It is not in any way outside the realm of reason or logic that parts of the Torah are true and parts aren't.  Otherwise we can apply that exact same reasoning to the New Testament as well, which I'm sure you recognize is pretty problematic to your argument.  In fact it is the norm for folk stories (which is all the Torah is really) to contain a kernel of truth.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 05:40:07 AM
Roundy, your argument only holds true IF you believe that the Torah was written, edited, redacted, & so-forth, the way modern liberal biblical scholarship says it was. I reject that whole theory. If, as Traditional Judaism teaches, Moses wrote the Torah, aside from the last 8 verses of Deuteronomy (written by Joshua), then either Moses was truthful or he was a liar. He can't be partly right & partly wrong. If you believe in modern liberal biblical scholarship, then this whole conversation is pointless, as we are proceeding from 2 different premisses that cannot possibly bring us to the same conclusion. I think you understand my point well. I disagree w/ you, but I'm not such a fool as to question your intellect. The NT was written by 9 authors, the Torah by 1. Each of those 9 had different purposes for writing. How are we to know they were complimentary purposes? Moses would hardly have wanted to be uncomplimentary to himself. He does repeat himself. He does emphasise different points while doing so. But I
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 05:48:16 AM
haven't yet seen him outright contradict himself. I'm sure some raging liberal is going to try & prove me wrong there. Well, feel free. But the Sages & Rabbis of Blessed Memory have been dealing w/ issues like this for somewhat over 4000 yrs. I don't think its a problem, even if I don't have all the answers, & I admit, I don't. I would recommend before confronting me on any supposed contradictions in Torah, you look in a topical guide to the Talmud & other texts of Jewish wisdom first. If that doesn't work, consult a knowledgeable Rabbi or Cantor.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 28, 2013, 06:37:43 AM
Roundy, your argument only holds true IF you believe that the Torah was written, edited, redacted, & so-forth, the way modern liberal biblical scholarship says it was. I reject that whole theory. If, as Traditional Judaism teaches, Moses wrote the Torah, aside from the last 8 verses of Deuteronomy (written by Joshua), then either Moses was truthful or he was a liar. He can't be partly right & partly wrong. If you believe in modern liberal biblical scholarship, then this whole conversation is pointless, as we are proceeding from 2 different premisses that cannot possibly bring us to the same conclusion. I think you understand my point well. I disagree w/ you, but I'm not such a fool as to question your intellect. The NT was written by 9 authors, the Torah by 1. Each of those 9 had different purposes for writing. How are we to know they were complimentary purposes? Moses would hardly have wanted to be uncomplimentary to himself. He does repeat himself. He does emphasise different points while doing so. But I
haven't yet seen him outright contradict himself. I'm sure some raging liberal is going to try & prove me wrong there. Well, feel free. But the Sages & Rabbis of Blessed Memory have been dealing w/ issues like this for somewhat over 4000 yrs. I don't think its a problem, even if I don't have all the answers, & I admit, I don't. I would recommend before confronting me on any supposed contradictions in Torah, you look in a topical guide to the Talmud & other texts of Jewish wisdom first. If that doesn't work, consult a knowledgeable Rabbi or Cantor.

None of this invalidates my point.  It may be your point of view that the Torah is 100% written by a man who may not have even existed and therefore must be 100% true or 100% false (which you haven't really supported with anything approaching logic... but whatever) but your statement was that Rama Set (and I assume everyone who argues with you on this) had only two choices (quote "Your choice is a bit binary, really") and obviously that is not the case, as you seem to have just acknowledged.  And to boot, you are continuing to validate the truth of the Torah with the Torah, which is what Rama ultimately accused you of doing.  The New Testament is just as valid a work as the Torah is using any objective criteria you wish to apply.  It is the affirmed testimony of four individuals whose trustworthiness we have no more reason to deny than that of Moses, recounting events that were witnessed by thousands of people.  As long as you continue simply being subjective on the matter you are doing nothing but affirming your own biased opinion on the matter with your own biased opinions on the matter, and there's really no point in attempting to debate with someone who does nothing but metaphorically put his fingers in his ears and make a raspberry sound.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 07:16:13 AM
Actually, the NT was written by 9 different people, the Torah by 1. The 9 all wrote between 36 CE (the crucifixion of Jesus) & 98 CE (the death of John). I don't dispute whether Jesus rose again or not. Its irrelevant. The Jewish Messiah will be a human born in the usual way & will re-establish the Temple & the Davidic Kingdom, & usher in an era of eternal peace. Jesus didn't do this. Ergo, he is not the Messiah. All this virgin birth business & dying & rising saving god figure is pure paganism. I don't care how many lepers Jesus healed, or blind & deaf he made see & hear. He didn't do what the Messiah must do. Ergo, he isn't. If someone wants to worship a Jewish Rabbi & call him God, that's their perogative, but don't tell me its as valid as Torah Observant Judaism. As far as Moses never existing, Jesus the Rabbi would have disagreed w/ you. & assuming Torah to have been written by 1 person, it can't be part right & part wrong. Either Moses told the truth or he didn't.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: jroa on December 28, 2013, 07:53:47 AM
Why can't it be part right and part wrong?  What if it was a phone book that we were talking about?  Can the phone book be part right and part wrong, or does it have to be all right or all wrong as well?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 28, 2013, 07:58:19 AM
assuming Torah to have been written by 1 person, it can't be part right & part wrong. Either Moses told the truth or he didn't.

Quite a lot of non fiction books written by one person have turned out to be part right and part wrong.

If he was writing to reveal the truth he could have made mistakes and if writing to lie he would add truth in so people would believe.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 28, 2013, 08:27:19 AM
As far as Moses never existing, Jesus the Rabbi would have disagreed w/ you. & assuming Torah to have been written by 1 person, it can't be part right & part wrong. Either Moses told the truth or he didn't.

Why can't Moses tell the truth when it is expedient and lie when it is expedient?  People do this all the time.  On what basis are you assuming that Moses is the sole author of the Torah?  Because the Torah said so?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Roundy on December 28, 2013, 09:12:53 AM
Actually, the NT was written by 9 different people, the Torah by 1. The 9 all wrote between 36 CE (the crucifixion of Jesus) & 98 CE (the death of John). I don't dispute whether Jesus rose again or not. Its irrelevant. The Jewish Messiah will be a human born in the usual way & will re-establish the Temple & the Davidic Kingdom, & usher in an era of eternal peace. Jesus didn't do this. Ergo, he is not the Messiah. All this virgin birth business & dying & rising saving god figure is pure paganism. I don't care how many lepers Jesus healed, or blind & deaf he made see & hear. He didn't do what the Messiah must do. Ergo, he isn't. If someone wants to worship a Jewish Rabbi & call him God, that's their perogative, but don't tell me its as valid as Torah Observant Judaism. As far as Moses never existing, Jesus the Rabbi would have disagreed w/ you. & assuming Torah to have been written by 1 person, it can't be part right & part wrong. Either Moses told the truth or he didn't.

Interesting.  Now you are invalidating the New Testament using the New Testament.  And presenting no less a subjective, biased viewpoint than before.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 12:29:30 PM
Much of this argument is  centered on how much credit a person gives Moses, & one other point I think is being overlooked, but can't be quantified. Was Moses a man of God, guided by God in what he  wrote & did? I believe he was. What he taught is in harmony w/ later Judaic thoughts on various subjects. The authors of the Writings, those books of a historical nature in the Hebrew Bible, & whose facts can be verified by non-biblical sources, prove that. So no, a man guided by God would neither lie nor make mistakes. As for Jesus, the NT is irrelevant. He didn't do what the Messiah is expected to do. Ergo, he is not the Messiah. There is no record, whether NT or otherwise, that shows Jesus as the Messiah. I'm not invalidating the NT. Doing so would serve no purpose. I'm simply invalidating Jesus' claim to be Messiah by observing that in late 2013, there is no Temple, no Davidic Kingdom, & no worldwide peace. Now, if you believe in the National Covenant @ Sinai (which is mentioned throughout the Hebrew Bible, NOT
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 12:34:30 PM
just in Torah), then you have to believe that God guided the People through the Exodus & settlement in Canaan. The later books of the Hebrew Bible all look back  to the events of Torah & validate them from a historical perspective. There's not much more to be said than this, really.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 28, 2013, 12:45:49 PM
Much of this argument is  centered on how much credit a person gives Moses, & one other point I think is being overlooked, but can't be quantified. Was Moses a man of God, guided by God in what he  wrote & did? I believe he was. What he taught is in harmony w/ later Judaic thoughts on various subjects.

of course it is. He laid the foundation and the later thoughts build upon it. They'd have looked pretty stupid if they went against their own holy book.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 28, 2013, 01:14:00 PM
No, they were smart. Anytime they needed to go against their holy book, they added a passage with a divine command and voilà! They could commit genocide and it was fully justified.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 28, 2013, 01:17:50 PM
just in Torah), then you have to believe that God guided the People through the Exodus & settlement in Canaan. The later books of the Hebrew Bible all look back  to the events of Torah & validate them from a historical perspective. There's not much more to be said than this, really.

So the Torah is validated by subsequent texts written with the Torah in mind?  This is exactly what I would expect and in no way validates the historicity of the Torah. I thought you had a masters degree in this stuff.  All that shows is that there is a valid framework that extends from the Torah, not that the Torah is in and of itself valid.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 02:16:50 PM
I have an MA in Renaissance British History, not Ancient Jewish Studies. But, the point that I am attempting to make (& either I'm not doing a good job of it or my interlocutors are just dense; I'll go w/ the 1st option for now) is that, @ a point in the historical development of the Bible where it can be validated by non-biblical sources, we find a nation that was observing Torah. Of course, we are beginning to find evidence of Torah as well (social unrest in Egypt & Hebrew entry into Canaan about the time of the Exodus) outside of the Bible. I've personally got no doubt that further research will validate the Torah. & I would LOVE to see evidence that the Torah was tampered w/ to justify 'genocide'. It seems to me to be historic fact that the nations (cities, really) that were displaced were asking for it due to abominable practices such as child human sacrifice & other delightful activities.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: spank86 on December 28, 2013, 03:13:04 PM
It seems to me to be historic fact that the nations (cities, really) that were displaced were asking for it due to abominable practices such as child human sacrifice & other delightful activities.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VsRyB52pYlA/UjD4kUKItQI/AAAAAAAAM4o/gJvORGAfacA/s400/German_soldier_bayonets_baby.jpg)

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 28, 2013, 04:34:25 PM
I have an MA in Renaissance British History, not Ancient Jewish Studies. But, the point that I am attempting to make (& either I'm not doing a good job of it or my interlocutors are just dense; I'll go w/ the 1st option for now) is that, @ a point in the historical development of the Bible where it can be validated by non-biblical sources, we find a nation that was observing Torah. Of course, we are beginning to find evidence of Torah as well (social unrest in Egypt & Hebrew entry into Canaan about the time of the Exodus) outside of the Bible. I've personally got no doubt that further research will validate the Torah. & I would LOVE to see evidence that the Torah was tampered w/ to justify 'genocide'. It seems to me to be historic fact that the nations (cities, really) that were displaced were asking for it due to abominable practices such as child human sacrifice & other delightful activities.

Would your professors praise you or criticize you for asserting the validity of a historical account without any corroberation, because that is what you do with the Torah. I am not sure where you are getting the impression that I ever doubted that there was a historical period where Hebrews followed the Torah, I have never done so. I have consistently challenged your claims of the historical accuracy of the narratives in the Torah, specifically those sealing with supernatural miracles and revelations. I would also say you are on shaky ground when you claim social unrest in Egypt is due to the Hebrew Exodus. It seems logical and obvious that there could be a number of reasons for this completely independent of the Hebrews.

Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 28, 2013, 04:38:14 PM
It seems to me to be historic fact that the nations (cities, really) that were displaced were asking for it due to abominable practices such as child human sacrifice & other delightful activities.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VsRyB52pYlA/UjD4kUKItQI/AAAAAAAAM4o/gJvORGAfacA/s400/German_soldier_bayonets_baby.jpg)



Nevermind that there is nothing historical about the notion of "asking for it" or that Hebrews required punishment for a disobedient child was death according to the Torah.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 05:59:57 PM
As historians, we know the following: 1. There was a point in history of social unrest in Egypt. 2. @ app. that time & for several years after, the Hebrews were entering Canaan in a combination of waves of peaceful settlement & military aggression, many of them from Egypt. 3. These events took place during plausible times that the Biblical Exodus could have occurred. 4. @ app. that same time period, an event or events occurred which welded the disparate Hebrew tribes together as a distinct ethno-politico-religious group. 5. After that welding, they began to follow Torah. These 5 things are fact, & can be proven from extra-Biblical sources. The Torah is the 1st part of the Bible, the later part of which IS provable from extra-Biblical sources. So is it logical to accept the veracity of the earlier part of that book? I believe it is. Eventually, proof will be found. I choose to believe that the 5 events above, that we know occurred in broad outline, occurred w/ the details that the Torah says they did. You do
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 06:05:26 PM
the math. The social unrest? The events of the Exodus. The welding of the Hebrews into an ethno-politico-religious group? The revelation @ Sinai. The settlement of Canaan? The events of Joshua. Pretty clear to me! I believe archaeology will prove this all in time, as it has later parts of the Bible. Very simple.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 28, 2013, 06:17:33 PM
So you accept facts on bad evidence when it suits you. Got it. So then why aren't you following all the heinous laws set out in the Torah?  Why are some parts metaphor when it suits and some parts literal?  Why is child murdering and genital mutilation ok for Jews but worthy of rape and genocide when someone else does it?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 06:38:21 PM
Last time I checked, Jews did not have a custom of murdering children. Male circumcision is practiced by Muslims as well as Jews. Even many Westerners do it for hygienic reasons. Female mutilation has NEVER been a practice of ours. We leave that to the savages of the world, among whom we are pleased not to count ourselves.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 28, 2013, 06:41:54 PM
Circumcision is a mutilation of the genitals, sorry. It is not necessary in the slightest. It does not matter how many people do it.

The Torah calls for the killing of disobedient children. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 06:49:08 PM
One assumes that such a child would be an adult, in order to be a drunkard. When the Davidic Kingdom is re-established, yes, that law will be enforced, & no, I've got no problem w/ that. As far as circumcision, my advice would be to grow a pair. Its done in infancy, & doesn't in any way harm the child.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Saddam Hussein on December 28, 2013, 06:50:03 PM
And just like that, the thread stopped being about religion and became about dicks.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 28, 2013, 07:04:14 PM
One assumes that such a child would be an adult, in order to be a drunkard.

You assume.

Quote
When the Davidic Kingdom is re-established, yes, that law will be enforced, & no, I've got no problem w/ that.

Thats messed up.

Quote
As far as circumcision, my advice would be to grow a pair. Its done in infancy, & doesn't in any way harm the child.

So as long as mutilation is done in infancy and does not cause lasting harm, its ok... gotcha.


[/quote]
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 07:26:37 PM
Again, re: circumcision, grow a pair. Re: Torah law, my advice would be the same. The Torah only applies to Jews anyway. It doesn't apply to Gentiles. Even when Messiah does come & usher in an era of peace w/ the Temple, the fire offerings of Israel (animal sacrifice), & full Torah observance, it won't be expected of non-Jews. Only the Noahide Laws (Google is your friend) apply to them.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 28, 2013, 08:28:13 PM
I am not particularly worried about the Messiah coming.  I am just continuing to point out how you cherry pick your interpretations of a supposedly immutable holy book because some parts do not suit you.  Anyway, you have degenerated in to immaturity, so I will let it alone.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 28, 2013, 09:31:34 PM
There are 613 commandments of the Law. In the absence of the Temple or the Davidic King, about 300 can be fulfilled & enforced. If I don't present my drunkard, disrespectful child to die, I'm cherry picking. If I do, I'm messed up. Which is it, Rama Set? I have told you that it is my belief that the full Torah will be operational during the Davidic Kingdom. You said I was messed up. Who is immature? I just told you to grow a pair AFTER you insulted me. So which is it? Should I cherry pick or call for full Torah Observance?  This should be an easy one for you to answer, since you seem to know everything else.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Снупс on December 28, 2013, 11:36:39 PM
You honestly think it's alright to murder a disobedient child?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Pete Svarrior on December 28, 2013, 11:47:44 PM
You honestly think it's alright to murder a disobedient child?
Well, it certainly solves the disobedience issue.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 29, 2013, 12:06:35 AM
There are 613 commandments of the Law. In the absence of the Temple or the Davidic King, about 300 can be fulfilled & enforced. If I don't present my drunkard, disrespectful child to die, I'm cherry picking. If I do, I'm messed up. Which is it, Rama Set? I have told you that it is my belief that the full Torah will be operational during the Davidic Kingdom. You said I was messed up. Who is immature? I just told you to grow a pair AFTER you insulted me. So which is it? Should I cherry pick or call for full Torah Observance?  This should be an easy one for you to answer, since you seem to know everything else.

Cherry-picking and morally repugnant are not mutually exclusive. However, you are totally neglecting choices 3 and 4.

#3-The Bible is a completely metaphorical text and should be treated as such, having no more weight than a profound piece of philosophy and story-telling.

#4-It is a completely fabricated bid by an Iron Age despot to control the scared masses and incite them to war and should be disregarded.

I never said you were messed up, I think the desire to apply ancient morality to modern life is messed up. If that insults you, then so be it, but you have repeatedly supported a stance on my spectrum of thinking in your Henry VIII thread.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on December 29, 2013, 12:45:54 AM
That would be the Bronze Age, actually. & we're talking, presumably, about an adult child. One presumes that a literal non-adult human would not have aquired such low habits as regular drunkenness. If he has, I think the parents are more @ fault than the child. On a purely personal level, I believe that the Torah is entirely applicable in 21st Century life. HOWEVER, & this is a major caveat, I believe that Jewish law, whilst divine in origin & thus immutable, must be interpreted afresh for every age. You gave me 2 choices. Orthodoxy or Liberal Reform. Of course I choose Orthodoxy. But if Traditional Conservative (as opposed to Modern Conservative) is an option, then yes, I'll take it. There is still a literal belief in Maimonides' 13 Articles of Faith & the Scripture as Divine. There is simply understanding that circumstances change, & interpretations must as well in some cases.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on December 29, 2013, 12:57:14 AM
I did no such thing. I gave you a choice between Reform and Atheism.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on January 05, 2014, 05:01:50 PM
Why do you keep arguing with this guy? There are two options:

1. He is trolling you because he gets some strange sort of amusement out of this.

or

2. He really is a Jewish nutjob, in which case your words are meaningless anyway.

And you better not give me some bullshit Lorddave answer "I have nothing better to do" you know damn well there is something better you could be doing than arguing with a troll or a nutter.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on January 05, 2014, 07:28:07 PM
I was holding out for an admission that he indeed cherry picks the Torah because he has been known to admit he is wrong in the past. You are likely right, and I have given up on Yaakov based on the choices you presented. I want to lock him, EJ and Scepti in a room and see who comes out alive.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 05, 2014, 07:46:55 PM
You know, putting druggies in the same jail only strengthens their connections...
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Blanko on January 05, 2014, 07:58:31 PM
If you believe God appeared to a nation on a mountaintop why don't you believe the Earth was created in 6 days 6,000 years ago?  Is that all of a sudden too incredible?

I have never understood why people consider YEC to be "extreme". Does it really make more sense for Abrahamic religions to believe that God created the Universe billions of years before his chosen people would come around, instead of, you know, simply creating the Universe in a given "aged" state? It could have simply been "simulated" until the point of its creation, to the extent that it needn't conflict with evolution and the like.

I mean, I'm not religious, but it doesn't seem that silly to me. Considering you're already putting a ridiculous amount of value on your own existence, you might as well go all the way with it.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 05, 2014, 08:07:50 PM
Putting EJ in a room w/ me is going on on the other board. Its interesting. For God to have created the world in an 'aged' state would make him a liar.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Blanko on January 05, 2014, 08:11:58 PM
Why's that? The Genesis itself doesn't suggest the world wasn't created as "aged". Adam and Eve weren't created as infants. Plants weren't created as saplings.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 05, 2014, 08:18:52 PM
Blanko, you have a point. I would have to examine the commentaries on the matter. I don't have an answer for you @ present. Your point is taken, though.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 05, 2014, 08:28:23 PM
Thanks for bumping this thread, Rushy. ::)
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rama Set on January 05, 2014, 09:05:44 PM
Thanks for bumping this thread, Rushy. ::)

Jelly you did not necro it after several years?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 06, 2014, 06:59:16 AM
Well, Rama, EJ was in the same room as me in AR on the other board. You know they tolerate pretty much anything in there. But he managed to get himself banned for extreme racism. It will either be 90 days or a permaban. The mod is taking a few days to think about it. It appears you have your answer. I came out alive. It seems EJ has quite an issue w/ Jews. His ethno-religious hatred was directed @ Jews generally, & me particularly. If you want to read the thread, it is 'A month? A whole flippin month' in AR. I do admit my Yiddish got a little harsh. But he was asking for it.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 06, 2014, 07:04:47 AM
And Rushy, to answer your implied question, no, I'm not a troll. I am what in your eyes would probably qualify as a 'Jewish nutter'. I don't deny having what many people regard as strong views. Even among my fellow Jews, my views are often perceived as extreme.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Tintagel on January 06, 2014, 07:14:01 PM
I do admit my Yiddish got a little harsh. But he was asking for it.

It is my fervent hope that one day I will be able to walk away from an argument and say this. 
BRB, learning Yiddish.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 06, 2014, 07:46:01 PM
To be honest, I'd like to do the same. I can curse quite well in Yiddish, but I don't speak the language. That is common among Jews who grew up in less observant homes. I chose to be observant as an adult. As a child, the family was secular & did not use Yiddish or go to shul.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 07, 2014, 09:12:21 AM
Oy vey, sounds like you're being a complete shmuck, although it does dake chutzpah to admit as such amongst goyim.

[/Hollywood Yiddish]
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: man-bear-man on January 07, 2014, 03:40:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=R66r_XMoDkk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=R66r_XMoDkk)
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: jroa on January 07, 2014, 05:15:05 PM
Yaakov, just to clarify, EJ was being abusive and spewing personal attacks in both the upper and lower fora and had been warned to stop.  The hate speech in the lower fora was the straw that broke the camel's back. 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 07, 2014, 05:51:51 PM
Jroa, I see. I thought when his dialog w/ me re: Proofs had been moved to AR w/ warnings to us both that he'd have been smart enough to modify his conduct in the Upper Fora, as I was. As for the racial talk, I did not know whether that was allowed in Lower Fora or not. I do not consider myself racist, although I admit I can get a bit triumphalistic about being Jewish when really pushed. But it would not have occurred to me to insult him racially, but only personally. @ this point, I'll be curious to find out if the ban stays @ 90 days or goes permaban.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: jroa on January 07, 2014, 06:04:21 PM
At this point, the alt accusation is just speculation, although it is shared by many.  However, lacking concrete proof, his ban will remain 90 days.

Also, the lower fora is very relaxed, in the context of the rules, compared to the rest of the fora.  However, excessive hate speech and personal attacks will still be dealt with. 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 07, 2014, 06:11:26 PM
Can't you people take this to PM? This isn't even about something that happened on this site.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: fappenhosen on January 19, 2014, 05:24:40 PM
I don't believe in magic.

Atheism covers just gods. But I also don't believe in Alchemy, witches, water dowsing and unicorns.

Also dis someone say DRAMA?

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02122/WILLIAM-SHAKESPEAR_2122089b.jpg)
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 19, 2014, 07:00:22 PM
Why not unicorns?
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: fappenhosen on January 20, 2014, 03:05:58 PM
Why not unicorns?

Because the Book Of The Unicorn is thousands of years old and captures a morality that is no longer applicable.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: jroa on January 20, 2014, 06:05:57 PM
North Korea has unicorn layers, though. 
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Crudblud on January 20, 2014, 06:30:10 PM
North Korea has unicorn layers, though.
There are literally layers upon layers of unicorns in North Korea.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: fappenhosen on January 20, 2014, 07:19:32 PM
A rectangular rock carved with words "Unicorn Lair" stands in front of the lair. (http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2012/201211/news29/20121129-20ee.html)

I'm convinced.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Rushy on January 21, 2014, 01:52:35 AM
Be lucky you didn't mention dragons, they would have killed you for that.
Title: Re: What Religion are you?
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 21, 2014, 02:16:19 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogona