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Offline honk

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2020, 11:25:00 PM »
Here is the article: https://onezero.medium.com/a-dna-test-told-me-im-white-here-s-why-it-s-wrong-9e6b20f128e4

DNA is majority European. Her parents are from Latin countries. Someone asked her if she was black when she was 10. Proceeds to self identify as black.

35.7% is not a majority, but this article is ridiculous all the same. The DNA test didn't tell her she's white, so why did even she bother saying something so silly as "My DNA test is wrong"?

If you need further evidence ... this was flown at a game this week


This outrageous statement has been referred to the police.
https://www.nhregister.com/sports/article/Police-investigating-White-Lives-Matter-banner-15359186.php

And Burnley football club issued the following statement.
Quote from: from the racists at Burnley football club
Burnley Football Club strongly condemns the actions of those responsible for the aircraft and offensive banner that flew over The Etihad Stadium on Monday evening," the club said. "We wish to make it clear that those responsible are not welcome at Turf Moor. This, in no way, represents what Burnley Football Club stands for and we will work fully with the authorities to identify those responsible and issue lifetime bans

And all because someone dared to say white lives matter.

It's a shame that Britain doesn't have freedom of speech like we do.
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2020, 02:34:47 AM »
Here is the article: https://onezero.medium.com/a-dna-test-told-me-im-white-here-s-why-it-s-wrong-9e6b20f128e4

DNA is majority European. Her parents are from Latin countries. Someone asked her if she was black when she was 10. Proceeds to self identify as black.

35.7% is not a majority, but this article is ridiculous all the same. The DNA test didn't tell her she's white, so why did even she bother saying something so silly as "My DNA test is wrong"?

If you need further evidence ... this was flown at a game this week


This outrageous statement has been referred to the police.
https://www.nhregister.com/sports/article/Police-investigating-White-Lives-Matter-banner-15359186.php

And Burnley football club issued the following statement.
Quote from: from the racists at Burnley football club
Burnley Football Club strongly condemns the actions of those responsible for the aircraft and offensive banner that flew over The Etihad Stadium on Monday evening," the club said. "We wish to make it clear that those responsible are not welcome at Turf Moor. This, in no way, represents what Burnley Football Club stands for and we will work fully with the authorities to identify those responsible and issue lifetime bans

And all because someone dared to say white lives matter.

It's a shame that Britain doesn't have freedom of speech like we do.
Well, we do have freedom of speech and anyone can condemn that speech all the same. Regardless though, flying an obviously antagonising banner in the sky during sensitive times is just stupid and can easily be considered purposefully offensive or hate speech. Yes, all lives should matter but the point with BLM is that they don't think all lives matter if black lives don't matter as much. There are memes floating around showcasing why it's stupid to say all lives matter in this context, let alone saying white lives matter...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 02:36:22 AM by ChrisTP »
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2020, 04:17:35 PM »
Police aren't supposed to stop people because they fit a profile unless it is in relation to a particular crime and/or they have a good reason to.  Profiling practices were stopped because they were found to be a step too far for government involvement in people's lives.
If that's so then fine, but if they're going to do "random" stop and searches then making them truly random makes no sense.
I couldn't find any stats on which people are stopped and searched other than by race. My guess is that race is only one factor in the police's decision on who to stop. Let's put it this way, in all the videos I've seen online of people spluttering with rage about someone being stopped "because they're black", the person in question was also young and dressed casually. So it's not much of a stretch to say that while race is a factor it is not the only one but it is the one that people fixate on.

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The point that many are making is that police forces are inadequate at preventing crimes but there are many ways to engage with society that cut crime and perhaps we should put more funding in to that?

Fair enough. And in a recent John Oliver piece about this he was explaining what "defund the police" means, and it isn't that you call 999 (or 911, for you Yanks) and get an answering machine, it's exactly what you say. Stop expecting the police to deal with lots of social issues and fund programmes which will help. I agree that makes sense.

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As I pointed out earlier, every other type of police use of force is more likely to be applied to black people rather than white, and that is controlling for context and confounding factors.  The conversation shouldn't end at shootings.

Fair point. I'm not denying the police have prejudices and there is a racist element. I'm just frustrated by this perception from some that black people should be actively scared when they encounter the police lest they be shot. The numbers really don't bear that out.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2020, 04:39:36 PM »
You mention that you have been privileged in your life because you have money. This is not the same as "white privilege". There are plenty of wealthy black people. White privilege is being advantaged solely because your skin is white. nothing to do with being rich or poor.
Understood. And I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all, but my feeling is in the UK at least a black person who grew up in the circumstances I did would have had most of the same advantages in life as I did. The incidents in the US where 911 is called on black people for spurious reasons are unfortunate although I would suggest they are rare, statistically speaking, and the stupid bint in Central Park who called the police on someone got sacked for it, so hopefully that will deter others from doing things so silly.

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I disagree. If you have "young, white, male, dressed in a certain way", I think you will be stopped less than if you are black. Doesn't mean you won't draw suspicion, but not as quickly. However, I don't have any proof of this.

You're right, the stats show you're right, more black people are stopped. But that's because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime. So their race is absolutely part of why they might get stopped but there are other factors and I'd suggest it's based on statistics more than racism.

And yes, police in the US do kill a disproportionate amount of black people but, again, looking at the crime stats you can see why they might have more encounters with the police and thus more opportunity for these incidents to occur. The fact remains that if you're unarmed then you are very unlikely to be killed by the police no matter your race.

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Are you saying the entire BLM movement is a strawman?

If BLM is saying that racism still exists and that's a bad thing then fine, I agree.
But if the argument is that systematically the police and other authorities don't regard black people's lives as worthy as white people's then I think that's a straw man. Of course individuals will have prejudices, some will be racist (as Avenue Q reminds us, everyone's a little bit racist, and white people don't have a monopoly on that). The person or people who called the police on the bird watcher. I can understand why people might have wondered what he was up to. Calling 911 is an over-reaction, agreed. Was that based on racism or stereotypes and is there a difference between those two things? It's a fine line and stereotypes become stereotypes for a reason (Again, Avenue Q "race jokes may be thought uncouth but you laugh because they're based on truth!")

I'm not saying there isn't a problem but I would suggest that society does not as a whole think that black lives don't matter, and that's what makes BLM a bit of a straw man. But the problem is people stereotype each other - but that isn't just based on race, it can be because of gender, age, social class, the way someone dresses, all kinds of things. And I don't know how you fix that.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2020, 07:26:36 PM »
You mention that you have been privileged in your life because you have money. This is not the same as "white privilege". There are plenty of wealthy black people. White privilege is being advantaged solely because your skin is white. nothing to do with being rich or poor.
Understood. And I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all, but my feeling is in the UK at least a black person who grew up in the circumstances I did would have had most of the same advantages in life as I did. The incidents in the US where 911 is called on black people for spurious reasons are unfortunate although I would suggest they are rare, statistically speaking, and the stupid bint in Central Park who called the police on someone got sacked for it, so hopefully that will deter others from doing things so silly.
I don't know much about the history of black people in the UK, so maybe "white privilege", as we know it in the US, is not an issue for the UK?

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I disagree. If you have "young, white, male, dressed in a certain way", I think you will be stopped less than if you are black. Doesn't mean you won't draw suspicion, but not as quickly. However, I don't have any proof of this.

You're right, the stats show you're right, more black people are stopped. But that's because they commit a disproportionate amount of crime. So their race is absolutely part of why they might get stopped but there are other factors and I'd suggest it's based on statistics more than racism.

And yes, police in the US do kill a disproportionate amount of black people but, again, looking at the crime stats you can see why they might have more encounters with the police and thus more opportunity for these incidents to occur. The fact remains that if you're unarmed then you are very unlikely to be killed by the police no matter your race.


In the US, I think there is a correlation between the high rate of crime committed by black people, and the history of systemic racism in this country. After slavery was abolished, Jim Crow laws became a thing, and that dictated where black people could live, who they could associate with, what jobs they could have, and even what restrooms or public services they could use.

These racist laws (yes, Tom, enacted by the democrats) forced black people into impoverished areas where crime was practically an inevitability. Then, police brutality became a thing, and the US built up their prison systems. So now we have a bunch of poor, crime-ridden black communities that are suddenly being locked up and brutalized by police, only to be incarcerated and put back to work for no pay - just as they were when they were "slaves".

These racist laws were eventually abolished, and we have tried to make things equal, but the animosity has not gone. The implicit biases are not gone. Racism is still not gone. Now we can conveniently use poor black communities ridden with crime as an excuse to continue incarcerating them at disproportionate rates.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2020, 07:48:49 PM »
To add on to Tim’s point about the continuation of racism, the economic conditions that many systemically oppressed black people found themselves in are inherited today as well.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2020, 09:30:17 PM »
In the US, I think there is a correlation between the high rate of crime committed by black people, and the history of systemic racism in this country. After slavery was abolished, Jim Crow laws became a thing, and that dictated where black people could live, who they could associate with, what jobs they could have, and even what restrooms or public services they could use.

These racist laws (yes, Tom, enacted by the democrats) forced black people into impoverished areas where crime was practically an inevitability. Then, police brutality became a thing, and the US built up their prison systems. So now we have a bunch of poor, crime-ridden black communities that are suddenly being locked up and brutalized by police, only to be incarcerated and put back to work for no pay - just as they were when they were "slaves".

These racist laws were eventually abolished, and we have tried to make things equal, but the animosity has not gone. The implicit biases are not gone. Racism is still not gone. Now we can conveniently use poor black communities ridden with crime as an excuse to continue incarcerating them at disproportionate rates.
Right, exactly this.
Those historic laws meant most of the wealth in the US is with white people.
Crime is correlated with poverty.
Police are more likely to crack down on areas with high crime.
So black people are going to be disproportionately affected by police brutality etc.
I do think there's a racist element too but I'd suggest the history of it all is a bigger factor.

As for the UK, I wouldn't say racism is fixed here but it's more covert and subtle. There's good evidence that English sounding names do better when people are applying for jobs, for example. Things are changing but there's no quick fix, attitudes take generations to improve. I should note here that I'm speaking as a Londoner, it's a pretty multi-cultural bubble in the UK, outside of London things may be different.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2020, 02:17:22 AM »
I do think there's a racist element too but I'd suggest the history of it all is a bigger factor.
Right, I don't think people try to be racist, not all people, not today. Most of us didn't grow up in the Jim Crow days, and we have no idea what 'real racism' is. Yet we have implicit biases that makes us do things, or react to things we ordinarily wouldn't, and this could definitely be a result of our racist history.

As for the UK, I wouldn't say racism is fixed here but it's more covert and subtle. There's good evidence that English sounding names do better when people are applying for jobs, for example. Things are changing but there's no quick fix, attitudes take generations to improve. I should note here that I'm speaking as a Londoner, it's a pretty multi-cultural bubble in the UK, outside of London things may be different.

Maybe this is media/television bias, but I get the impression that England, Britain, and other parts of the UK are more 'proper' than US, is this true? If so, I wonder if it has an impact on the expression of racism in the UK. Keep in mind, I'm stretching on this one, and I have virtually no real reason to think this way.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2020, 09:11:56 AM »
Maybe this is media/television bias, but I get the impression that England, Britain, and other parts of the UK are more 'proper' than US, is this true? If so, I wonder if it has an impact on the expression of racism in the UK. Keep in mind, I'm stretching on this one, and I have virtually no real reason to think this way.
We like to think we're a bit less uncouth than you lot and I think that's sort of true. You don't get so much of the patriotic (which IMO veers a bit too close to jingoistic) flag waving over here. We love a bit of pomp and ceremony - often around Royal occasions - but it's all a lot more dignified. That said, there's a large underclass here too who the rest of us secretly look down on while pretending not to.

And I don't think any of that has much to do with the issue of racism, I just think we're a bit further along the path than you are. It's shocking to us that segregation was a thing within living memory in the US. You're not going to go from that to complete equality overnight, it takes generations. I think we're a bit further along than you are but we're not there yet either, the racism here is just more subtle.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2020, 06:16:52 AM »
... presumably ... to someone.

I have to wonder where this movement is going, how effective it is and what it wants? Usually, activists demand something. What BLM want is anyone's guess.


I think during WW2 America saw similar protests.  Right now our government is having problems and is to tough on its people. 
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2020, 06:45:52 PM »
To clear a few things up ... the UK does not have historical racial tensions like the US does.

We didn't have black slaves here. Not even the royal family had slaves. No one can claim to be descended from slaves 200ish years ago in the UK.
We didn't have Jim Crow laws or any equivalent. We never had segregation or separate laws. It has never been against the law to marry interracially.
Black people in the UK are immigrants or descended from recent immigrants. They have been given every opportunity, They weren't brought against their will.
Our police don't have guns. Black people aren't being shot by the police. 

So, why am I watching British sports stars bending the knee? Why is the British press so desperate to import America's problems to the UK? Why are they telling black people in the UK that they are victims and white people that they are colonialists? The British aren't colonialists. We are descended from the people who didn't get on the boats ... people who chose to stay at home and not be colonialists.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2020, 12:28:06 AM »
To clear a few things up ... the UK does not have historical racial tensions like the US does.

We didn't have black slaves here. Not even the royal family had slaves. No one can claim to be descended from slaves 200ish years ago in the UK.
We didn't have Jim Crow laws or any equivalent. We never had segregation or separate laws. It has never been against the law to marry interracially.
Black people in the UK are immigrants or descended from recent immigrants. They have been given every opportunity, They weren't brought against their will.
Our police don't have guns. Black people aren't being shot by the police. 

So, why am I watching British sports stars bending the knee? Why is the British press so desperate to import America's problems to the UK? Why are they telling black people in the UK that they are victims and white people that they are colonialists? The British aren't colonialists. We are descended from the people who didn't get on the boats ... people who chose to stay at home and not be colonialists.

That is interesting. I wonder why? Maybe they are being empathetic?
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline honk

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #72 on: June 29, 2020, 12:30:33 AM »
Well, we do have freedom of speech and anyone can condemn that speech all the same. Regardless though, flying an obviously antagonising banner in the sky during sensitive times is just stupid and can easily be considered purposefully offensive or hate speech. Yes, all lives should matter but the point with BLM is that they don't think all lives matter if black lives don't matter as much. There are memes floating around showcasing why it's stupid to say all lives matter in this context, let alone saying white lives matter...

I was being snarky, but to be more serious, you don't have freedom of speech if hate speech is criminalized. I agree that nobody who says "white lives matter" is acting in good faith, but it shouldn't be a crime to say that, nor anything hateful or offensive.

So, why am I watching British sports stars bending the knee? Why is the British press so desperate to import America's problems to the UK? Why are they telling black people in the UK that they are victims and white people that they are colonialists? The British aren't colonialists. We are descended from the people who didn't get on the boats ... people who chose to stay at home and not be colonialists.

Everything the colonists did, they did in Britain's name and with Britain's authority. They were funded by British money and protected by British military power, and the taxes they paid and profits they earned were sent back to Britain. I'm not saying you should feel guilty about it or ashamed of it, because it's ridiculous to blame anyone for what their ancestors or predecessors did, but it's just as ridiculous to try and act like Britain can just wash its hands of the dark legacy of colonialism on the grounds that it happened somewhere else. Incidentally, you're confusing colonists, the people who left Britain to settle foreign lands, with colonialists, the people who perpetuated and supported the practice of colonialism. The British weren't colonists, but they were colonialists.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 12:15:32 AM by honk »
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #73 on: June 29, 2020, 01:11:32 PM »
Everything the colonists did, they did in Britain's name and with Britain's authority. They were funded by British money and protected by British military power, and the taxes they paid and profits they earned were sent back to Britain. I'm not saying you should feel guilty about it or ashamed of it, because it's ridiculous to blame anyone for what their ancestors or predecessors did, but it's ridiculous to try and act like Britain can just wash its hands of the dark legacy of colonialism on the grounds that it happened somewhere else. Incidentally, you're confusing colonists, the people who left Britain to settle foreign lands, with colonialists, the people who perpetuated and supported the practice of colonialism. The British weren't colonists, but they were colonialists.
I think we can wash our hands of it.

The USA declared independence in 1776.


Not much more than half a million slaves when we left. By 1807 Britain has abolished slavery passing the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act. Graph still keeps going up. Slavery is a part of US history. Not British history. We're the good guys. The ones who ended it. You're the nation that liked its cotton pickers too much.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2020, 01:34:56 PM »

Not much more than half a million slaves when we left.

Only half a million?

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By 1807 Britain has abolished slavery passing the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act. Graph still keeps going up. Slavery is a part of US history. Not British history.

But by your own admission you enslaved half a million people? 

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We're the good guys. The ones who ended it.

You're also the bad guys, the ones who started it.

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You're the nation that liked its cotton pickers too much.

Guess who bought the cotton?  The UK loved the cheap cotton, relied heavily on it and didn't care why it was so cheap.  How noble  ::)
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #75 on: June 29, 2020, 01:53:57 PM »
You're also the bad guys, the ones who started it.
Hardly. The Romans were over here enslaving us 2000 years earlier. Every major civilisation has had slaves. Every single one. And it was the British who stopped it.

Guess who bought the cotton?  The UK loved the cheap cotton, relied heavily on it and didn't care why it was so cheap.  How noble  ::)
Guess who boycotted cheap cotton and demanded fair trade and refused to buy cotton picked by slaves despite their government refusing to abolish slavery?





The British public. We really were the good guys in all this, and we don't deserve to be painted as the worst slave owning villains of all time. The truth is the exact opposite.
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totallackey

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #76 on: June 29, 2020, 02:49:53 PM »

Not much more than half a million slaves when we left.

Only half a million?
Yes.

How many are in slavery today?
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By 1807 Britain has abolished slavery passing the Abolition of the Slave Trade Act. Graph still keeps going up. Slavery is a part of US history. Not British history.

But by your own admission you enslaved half a million people?
You think Thork has enslaved half a million people?

How many have you enslaved?
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We're the good guys. The ones who ended it.

You're also the bad guys, the ones who started it.
No, they didn't.
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You're the nation that liked its cotton pickers too much.

Guess who bought the cotton?  The UK loved the cheap cotton, relied heavily on it and didn't care why it was so cheap.  How noble  ::)
Everybody loves cheap stuff.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #77 on: June 29, 2020, 03:12:19 PM »
You're also the bad guys, the ones who started it.
Hardly. The Romans were over here enslaving us 2000 years earlier. Every major civilisation has had slaves. Every single one. And it was the British who stopped it.

We are talking about chattel slave trade from Africa to North America, which the UK participated in for over 150 years and transported over 3 million slaves to the New World.  It's good the UK stopped it but to say...
Slavery is a part of US history. Not British history.
...is completely false and you know that.

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Guess who boycotted cheap cotton and demanded fair trade and refused to buy cotton picked by slaves despite their government refusing to abolish slavery?

Just as slavery was ending a few factory workers decided to take a stance against slave cotton, not all of them mind you. So it took almost 50 years after the abolishing of slavery to take a principled stance on slave picked cotton, and that stance was taken by a tiny minority of UK citizens who happened to wield no power?  Seems like the UK's morals weren't as strong as you are touting them.

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We really were the good guys in all this, and we don't deserve to be painted as the worst slave owning villains of all time.

No one has done that.  Stop lying.

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The truth is the exact opposite.

Evidently false.  The UK kept slaves, exported millions more and was a main buyer of slave picked cotton for the vast majority of the time the industry existed after they abolished slaves.

Trying to minimize the UKs role in this is just a vain attempt to protect your nationalist ego.  You would do well to be a true patriot and accept your history so that it's lessons can continue to be soaked in for future generations; we don't want to be doomed to repeat it do we?
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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #78 on: June 29, 2020, 04:42:06 PM »


A compromise, how nice. I think we agree more than we disagree on a lot of things tbh. We're not so different, you and I.

I will admit an occasional tendency to the reductive when arguing politics. I don't really see the world as black and white, I only come across that way sometimes.


You nailed the problem.   Binary thinking is the problem now.   I am 62 and have never seen anything like the pure hatred each side has for the other.   

It's easy to get into the "Blue Plate Special" thinking in politics.   You take it all or you are the enemy.   You see it every day where people are crucified for not being BLM enough or saying it wrong or not enough we've though they mean well.

There are many good cops and bad cops
There are many good Democrats and bad Democrats
There are many good Republicans and bad Republicans
There are many good people and bad people


Nothing Guest has ever said should be taken as representative of anything other than Guest's own delusions opinions.

totallackey

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #79 on: June 30, 2020, 11:20:13 AM »
To add on to Tim’s point about the continuation of racism, the economic conditions that many systemically oppressed black people found themselves in are inherited today as well.
Thomas Sowell proves your stated position is devoid of substance.

Lifestyle choice is not systemic.