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Online timterroo

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2020, 04:26:55 AM »
Quote
I'm from a small town, most people are white, but I have a niece who is black. The school once told her she couldn't come to school with her hair in a fro - they said it was a distraction, and they thought it meant she hadn't been showering, so CPS was nearly called.

Would that justify her participation in riots and crime in protest of this perceived racism?

No, not at all.

If nothing justifies riots and crime, then why are you here trying to plead and justify and argue in favor of this movement which causes riots and crime to occur?

An argument of "some people there aren't throwing bricks and destroying property" is rather poor justification for this movement which causes crime to occur.

I’m not in favor of violence, and I never said I was.

Yet here you are, pleading with and defending an organization which causes crime to occur.

You said that already, and you are entitled to your opinion.
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"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2020, 06:38:22 AM »
Statistically, black people are more likely to be stopped
Statistically black people are more likely to commit crime. QED.

Stopping black people more often in general because of the behavior of a subset of black people is, what? Anybody? Anybody? Racism.
It’s profiling. And it’s based on statistics.
And there are lots of factors.
Race, yes, but also gender, time of day, location, age, the way someone is dressed. Maybe the way someone is behaving.
Lots of things. Why are some people fixated on race and declaring it racist?

How many black 50 year old men in business suits get stopped when they go out for lunch? I don’t know the answer to that but my guess is it pretty much doesn’t happen. Because profiling isn’t based purely on race but lots of factors and it’s based on statistics. As it should be.

Let’s imagine 95% of a certain crime are committed by women and that stop and search was intended to lower the rate of that crime. Are you suggesting that in the name of equality and political correctness the police should stop 50% men and 50% women? How would that make any sense?

It is generally young black men who are dressed in a certain way who are stopped. Because they tick all the boxes:
- Young
- Black
- Male
- Dressed in a certain way

Why are people picking out that person’s race and declaring that as the only factor and therefore it’s motivated by race and racism?

As for whether stop and search is an effective tactic, I’m not so sure about that. And whether the police should have a reason for suspicion (apart from the profile of the person) before stopping someone - if the idea is to try and reduce knife crime then I don’t know how the police can know whether someone is carrying a knife. If it’s thought to be an effective tactic (again, not entirely convinced it is) then profiling is all they’ve got.

And it was 14 unarmed black men killed by police last year. Hardly indicative of a systematically racist police force just itching to gun down black people at every opportunity

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 07:41:21 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2020, 06:45:24 AM »
BLM is not about white people, so if you feel like you don't matter or you're being left out because of this movement - if you're someone who says, "but every life matters" -  that's what is called "white privilege".

If you fall into this category, and I did at first, try putting the word "too" after "black lives matter". That's what BLM is about.

Right. But it feels like a straw man. It’s arguing against a position which almost no one holds. Who says that black lives don’t matter?
I provided the stats above, it’s incredibly rare that unarmed black people are killed by police in the US. The George Floyd incident was indisputably awful but the people who did it are in jail - no laws need to change, what they did was already illegal. And the stats just don’t bear out this idea that a systematically racist police force are killing black people for no reason other than their race.

Obviously I don’t know what it’s like to be black in the UK, but my feeling is that the privileges I have enjoyed - and I certainly have - are largely because of my family’s affluence.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2020, 10:28:37 AM »
Quote
Black people live in crime areas because black people commit more crime.
Or another way to look at it is that people commit more crime because they live in an area with more crime, regardless of skin colour. And the reason there happens to be a lot of black people in those areas is because of a long history of racial discrimination.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2020, 10:38:22 AM »
"...the point is that it's entirely believable that Alexandra Burke was told by people who ought to have known better that she shouldn't be "too black,"...
Please describe in your own words what it means to be, "too black."
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2020, 10:56:28 AM »
It’s profiling. And it’s based on statistics.
And there are lots of factors.
Race, yes, but also gender, time of day, location, age, the way someone is dressed. Maybe the way someone is behaving.
Lots of things. Why are some people fixated on race and declaring it racist?

Police aren't supposed to stop people because they fit a profile unless it is in relation to a particular crime and/or they have a good reason to.  Profiling practices were stopped because they were found to be a step too far for government involvement in people's lives.

Quote
How many black 50 year old men in business suits get stopped when they go out for lunch? I don’t know the answer to that but my guess is it pretty much doesn’t happen. Because profiling isn’t based purely on race but lots of factors and it’s based on statistics. As it should be.

Why don't you try and find out instead of guessing and then declaring everything as it should be?  I did that with police use of force and found out that use of force has a strong racial component to it.

Quote
Let’s imagine 95% of a certain crime are committed by women and that stop and search was intended to lower the rate of that crime. Are you suggesting that in the name of equality and political correctness the police should stop 50% men and 50% women? How would that make any sense?

I never did and specifically have made other suggestions.  Let's talk, but make sure you understand me first.


Quote
It is generally young black men who are dressed in a certain way who are stopped. Because they tick all the boxes:
- Young
- Black
- Male
- Dressed in a certain way

Why are people picking out that person’s race and declaring that as the only factor and therefore it’s motivated by race and racism?

I don't know, and I don't agree that that should happen.

Quote
As for whether stop and search is an effective tactic, I’m not so sure about that. And whether the police should have a reason for suspicion (apart from the profile of the person) before stopping someone - if the idea is to try and reduce knife crime then I don’t know how the police can know whether someone is carrying a knife. If it’s thought to be an effective tactic (again, not entirely convinced it is) then profiling is all they’ve got.

The point that many are making is that police forces are inadequate at preventing crimes but there are many ways to engage with society that cut crime and perhaps we should put more funding in to that?

Quote
And it was 14 unarmed black men killed by police last year. Hardly indicative of a systematically racist police force just itching to gun down black people at every opportunity

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/

As I pointed out earlier, every other type of police use of force is more likely to be applied to black people rather than white, and that is controlling for context and confounding factors.  The conversation shouldn't end at shootings.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2020, 11:23:05 AM »
I can't lay my hands on it at the moment, but in the last day or so, I watched a video of NYPD in action; with two white civilians talking trash to them, and videoing them on smartphones, they push past the two whites to arrest the black guy behind them, who  wasn't doing anything apart from standing around behind the white guys.

EDITed for grammer misteak ..
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 12:55:50 PM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2020, 11:24:54 AM »
Quote
Black people live in crime areas because black people commit more crime.
Or another way to look at it is that people commit more crime because they live in an area with more crime, regardless of skin colour. And the reason there happens to be a lot of black people in those areas is because of a long history of racial discrimination.
Right. Exactly this.
Black people are profiled because, statistically, they commit a lot of the crime.
Not because there are inherent differences between the races in terms of propensity towards violence/crime, simply because it is correlated with poverty and black people tend to be poorer for historic reasons. That is the root of all this IMO, and I don't think there's an easy fix.

I don't know if I have "white privilege", but I definitely have benefited from "affluent privilege". We didn't own a yacht or anything but neither did I want for anything, my way through university was paid - all that confers a big advantage in life which I have definitely benefited from.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Online timterroo

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2020, 02:46:01 PM »
BLM is not about white people, so if you feel like you don't matter or you're being left out because of this movement - if you're someone who says, "but every life matters" -  that's what is called "white privilege".

If you fall into this category, and I did at first, try putting the word "too" after "black lives matter". That's what BLM is about.

Right. But it feels like a straw man. It’s arguing against a position which almost no one holds. Who says that black lives don’t matter?
I provided the stats above, it’s incredibly rare that unarmed black people are killed by police in the US. The George Floyd incident was indisputably awful but the people who did it are in jail - no laws need to change, what they did was already illegal. And the stats just don’t bear out this idea that a systematically racist police force are killing black people for no reason other than their race.

Obviously I don’t know what it’s like to be black in the UK, but my feeling is that the privileges I have enjoyed - and I certainly have - are largely because of my family’s affluence.

I was writing this in response to some comments that were made earlier in the thread - primarily thorks comments. I often here people say things like that - "all lives matter", and that comes from a place of privilege as it misses the point of BLM.

You mention that you have been privileged in your life because you have money. This is not the same as "white privilege". There are plenty of wealthy black people.

White privilege is being advantaged solely because your skin is white. nothing to do with being rich or poor.

Take the bird watcher example:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2020/06/05/people-called-police-this-black-birdwatcher-so-many-times-that-he-posted-custom-signs-explain-his-hobby/

An educated black man who watches birds as a hobby evidently gave some poor lady a big enough scare that she called 911 on him - and she wasn't the first to do so.

This man's only crime was having black skin. If he had white skin, guaranteed nobody would have thought twice. This is what white privilege is - not having to worry you'll be judged or profiled because your skin is white.

Quote
It is generally young black men who are dressed in a certain way who are stopped. Because they tick all the boxes:
- Young
- Black
- Male
- Dressed in a certain way

Why are people picking out that person’s race and declaring that as the only factor and therefore it’s motivated by race and racism?

I disagree. If you have "young, white, male, dressed in a certain way", I think you will be stopped less than if you are black. Doesn't mean you won't draw suspicion, but not as quickly. However, I don't have any proof of this.

Quote

And it was 14 unarmed black men killed by police last year. Hardly indicative of a systematically racist police force just itching to gun down black people at every opportunity

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/national/police-shootings-2019/


Although I don't think police are "itching to gun down black people at every opportunity", I do think those statistics are not giving the entire picture. There are far more white people in this country than black people, so statistically, there would be more white people shot down by police. The fact that the numbers are actually close is telling that the percentage of black people shot is higher than that for whites.


Edit:

@AATW, I re-read your post and I think I misunderstood. Are you saying the entire BLM movement is a strawman? If so, I think I see what you mean, but this is also exactly what I'm trying to say - People aren't explicitly saying "black lives don't matter", yet society treats them like they don't matter. Take my example of the bird watcher. If she had actually saw the man as a human being, rather than a black man, she might not have been so scared. No, there are no more laws that explicitly discriminate and we are all legally equal, it doesn't mean we are practically speaking because society implicitly biases against black people. So by saying "Black Lives Matter", that isn't an argument against people who say "black lives don't matter", it's a message for people to wake up and realize there is a problem.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 03:49:12 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline honk

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2020, 04:57:51 AM »
"...the point is that it's entirely believable that Alexandra Burke was told by people who ought to have known better that she shouldn't be "too black,"...
Please describe in your own words what it means to be, "too black."

I suppose having darker skin, as well as wearing afros, beads, or other cultural trappings that suggest pride in an African heritage or traditional black fashion? I'm not pretending it's sound or logical, far from it. I think a lot of the time it really just comes down to the biases and prejudices of these industry people (possibly unconscious ones) which they then assume are shared by the general population, even with plenty of evidence indicating that's not the case.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2020, 05:08:32 AM »
BLM's demands don't even make any sense. 90% of their problems can be traced back to their own crime infested neighborhoods, yet they have no plan of action to clean them up. So all of the good black citizens in them will suffer immensely when police are defunded, or budgets are slashed. They're just making the feedback loop 10x worse, pissing off a lot of people, and getting some brand icons changed.
R.I.P. To my boy 4Chainz. You trill to da end.
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Online timterroo

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2020, 04:59:56 PM »
BLM's demands don't even make any sense. 90% of their problems can be traced back to their own crime infested neighborhoods, yet they have no plan of action to clean them up. So all of the good black citizens in them will suffer immensely when police are defunded, or budgets are slashed. They're just making the feedback loop 10x worse, pissing off a lot of people, and getting some brand icons changed.

I want to believe that BLM is going the right direction, but there seems to be so many different 'groups', each with different motives.... There are good people and bad people getting wrapped up into the whole mess, and when all you get is media bias, it's hard to make an informed judgement on the entire ordeal.

Plus, I'm now having doubts that the movement was even started by black people, but rather from some hidden entity using tech giants to spout propaganda conspiring to control society. Similarly to how they are swaying elections and changing peoples minds with targeted advertisement campaigns - but that could be a whole other topic.
"noche te ipsum"

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."  - Albert Einstein

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2020, 05:08:58 PM »
BLM's demands don't even make any sense. 90% of their problems can be traced back to their own crime infested neighborhoods, yet they have no plan of action to clean them up. So all of the good black citizens in them will suffer immensely when police are defunded, or budgets are slashed. They're just making the feedback loop 10x worse, pissing off a lot of people, and getting some brand icons changed.

I want to believe that BLM is going the right direction, but there seems to be so many different 'groups', each with different motives.... There are good people and bad people getting wrapped up into the whole mess, and when all you get is media bias, it's hard to make an informed judgement on the entire ordeal.

Plus, I'm now having doubts that the movement was even started by black people, but rather from some hidden entity using tech giants to spout propaganda conspiring to control society. Similarly to how they are swaying elections and changing peoples minds with targeted advertisement campaigns - but that could be a whole other topic.

Yeah, astro-turfing is a thing to be concerned about.  The Reopen movement was an example of that just this year.  I haven't seen anything to indicate that BLM is astro-turfed, but I am wary.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2020, 07:47:30 PM »
Racist BLM supporter discovers that she's white.

"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2020, 07:53:18 PM »
Racist BLM supporter discovers that she's white.

There is no "white" DNA.  So the whole thing is dumb.  Out of curiosity, how did you decide she is racist?


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Online timterroo

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2020, 08:09:55 PM »
Racist BLM supporter discovers that she's white.

There is no "white" DNA.  So the whole thing is dumb.  Out of curiosity, how did you decide she is racist?

I'm guessing because of the, "in my family, being called white is the ultimate insult".

But ya.... many people in this country who are considered black would be considered white in Africa, so where does that leave us....
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2020, 08:24:42 PM »
Here is the article: https://onezero.medium.com/a-dna-test-told-me-im-white-here-s-why-it-s-wrong-9e6b20f128e4

DNA is majority European. Her parents are from Latin countries. Someone asked her if she was black when she was 10. Proceeds to self identify as black.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2020, 08:26:49 PM »
Here is the article: https://onezero.medium.com/a-dna-test-told-me-im-white-here-s-why-it-s-wrong-9e6b20f128e4

DNA is majority European. Her parents are from Latin countries. Someone asked her if she was black when she was 10. Proceeds to self identify as black.

Situations like this are, to me, the reason why we need to subvert the entire idea of classifying people by race.  It never helps, it only ever divides.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2020, 08:31:06 PM »
i believe FIFA is institutionally racist.

I will give a little background for those not English. Every year in the UK we celebrate remembrance day. It is our day to remember all those who died in wars for our freedom. And we buy poppies. The money then goes to The Royal British Legion that use it to support soldiers and their families should they die or have a leg blown off. Its very very important in England. We remember all soldiers (predominantly white) who lost their lives for our nation. And everyone wears a poppy. You can't go on TV without a poppy as say a newsreader or a gameshow host. Your career would be over. It is very very important to us as a nation. And why not? You should venerate your veterans and provide support to the injured and bereaved. Pretty sure anyone reading this is going to be onboard with this concept. Its our thing. Its important to us. We remember our forefathers who gave their lives.

Not FIFA.

Quote from: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/fifa-poppy-ban-england-fine-35000-scotland-a7484296.html
England fined £35,000 by Fifa for wearing poppies against Scotland but will appeal sanction
England players (who would be on TV), wore a shirt as follows.


FIFA went mental because
Quote from: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/fifa-poppy-ban-england-fine-35000-scotland-a7484296.html
England has been fined CHF 45,000 [£35,000] for several incidents in the framework of the England v Scotland match, including the display by the host association, the English team and spectators of a political symbol and several cases of spectator misconduct.
Note the wording ... a political symbol shown on the shirts and by the players and fans. In the end our government had to get involved to tell FIFA to wind its neck in.

It turns out however, that footballing authorities don't dislike political symbols on shirts at all ... so long as they agree with those symbols. And those celebrating lost white lives are abhorrent, but those celebrating black lives are welcomed and championed.



If you need further evidence ... this was flown at a game this week


This outrageous statement has been referred to the police.
https://www.nhregister.com/sports/article/Police-investigating-White-Lives-Matter-banner-15359186.php

And Burnley football club issued the following statement.
Quote from: from the racists at Burnley football club
Burnley Football Club strongly condemns the actions of those responsible for the aircraft and offensive banner that flew over The Etihad Stadium on Monday evening," the club said. "We wish to make it clear that those responsible are not welcome at Turf Moor. This, in no way, represents what Burnley Football Club stands for and we will work fully with the authorities to identify those responsible and issue lifetime bans

And all because someone dared to say white lives matter.

This is not the way to stop racism. It stokes it.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 08:36:59 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Black Lives Matter
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2020, 08:48:40 PM »
FIFA doesn't sound racist, just another corporation being politically convenient for the sake of their brand.

In regards to that banner none of it is helpful.