Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« on: September 12, 2019, 03:42:47 PM »
So I have been making my way through Earth Not A Globe and came across this on page 110

“…If a delicate spirit-level be firmly placed upon a rock or upon the most solid foundation which it is possible to construct, the very curious phenomenon will be observed of constant change in the position of the air-bubble.  However carefully the “level” may be adjusted, and the instrument protected from the atmosphere, the “bubble” will not maintain its position may seconds together…”
 

And it made me wonder how a spirit level could even work on a flat earth when they are designed to indicate “level” as “perpendicular to gravity”.  “Level” is a relative term, so when the bubble is in the middle, what is the spirit level using as a baseline for “level”, if not gravity? And what is the mechanism for determining something is level relative to the baseline?

Anybody have any ideas?

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2019, 10:49:52 AM »
what is the spirit level using as a baseline for “level”, if not gravity?
UA, broadly speaking.
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2019, 03:52:21 PM »
Quote
UA, broadly speaking.

That was my initial thought, but if the low end and the high end are accelerating at the same rate, the bubble won't move whether it is at an angle or not. The only way to get the bubble to move from a tilt to level is if more force is applied to one end.


Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2019, 04:21:41 PM »
Quote
UA, broadly speaking.

That was my initial thought, but if the low end and the high end are accelerating at the same rate, the bubble won't move whether it is at an angle or not. The only way to get the bubble to move from a tilt to level is if more force is applied to one end.

But the force of gravity on either end is the same on both ends too, so what's the difference?
I think this would work fine with UA.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2019, 04:50:11 PM »
Quote
But the force of gravity on either end is the same on both ends too, so what's the difference?
I think this would work fine with UA.

The force of gravity is the same on both ends only if it is level.  The reason the bubble migrates to the low end is because the force of gravity is stronger on the low end.  That is how a spirit level works...the bubble in the middle indicates that the gravitational force is equal across the length of the spirit level. 

With gravity, when the bubble is not in the middle, it indicates an unequal gravitational force across the length of the spirit level. With UA, then, when the bubble is not in the middle, that would mean an unequal force created by acceleration across the length. But if both ends are accelerating at the same rate, how can that be?



« Last Edit: September 13, 2019, 05:33:29 PM by pricelesspearl »

Offline obiba

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2019, 04:54:48 PM »
So I have been making my way through Earth Not A Globe and came across this on page 110

“…If a delicate spirit-level be firmly placed upon a rock or upon the most solid foundation which it is possible to construct, the very curious phenomenon will be observed of constant change in the position of the air-bubble.  However carefully the “level” may be adjusted, and the instrument protected from the atmosphere, the “bubble” will not maintain its position may seconds together…”
 

And it made me wonder how a spirit level could even work on a flat earth when they are designed to indicate “level” as “perpendicular to gravity”.  “Level” is a relative term, so when the bubble is in the middle, what is the spirit level using as a baseline for “level”, if not gravity? And what is the mechanism for determining something is level relative to the baseline?

Anybody have any ideas?
not gravity but density


Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2019, 05:07:13 PM »
Quote
not gravity but density

It can't be density and/or buoyancy because (among other reasons), those are up/down phenomena. The bubble always stays at the top of the vial no matter if the angle of the spirit level...because its a bubble and that is what bubbles do.  The bubble can only move side to side, along the axis of the vial and density or buoyancy cannot account for the bubble moving side to side.

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2019, 07:06:05 PM »
it is not the bubble but the water that is moving...

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2019, 07:27:03 PM »
Quote
it is not the bubble but the water that is moving...

 ::)     What makes the water move?

And that still wouldn't answer the question of "level relative to what?"

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2019, 01:49:42 PM »
Quote
it is not the bubble but the water that is moving...

 ::)     What makes the water move?

And that still wouldn't answer the question of "level relative to what?"

don t you understand that water density is defferent  from the air density it is why the drops of water fall from the sky when it is raining

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2019, 01:52:48 PM »
and how do you explain that if you take out the azote from atmosphere the supposed gravity stop working?

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2019, 03:28:44 PM »


Quote
don t you understand that water density is defferent  from the air density it is why the drops of water fall from the sky when it is raining

And don’t you understand that the only air in the vial of a spirit level is the bubble, but yet the water never “falls” through it.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2019, 03:30:00 PM »
and how do you explain that if you take out the azote from atmosphere the supposed gravity stop working?

Funny that gravity still works in a vacuum though

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2019, 07:19:18 PM »
The reason the bubble migrates to the low end is because the force of gravity is stronger on the low end.  That is how a spirit level works...the bubble in the middle indicates that the gravitational force is equal across the length of the spirit level. 
This is not at all how a spirit level works in RET (or in any model, really). The air bubble moves towards the top because the density of air is lower than the density of the alcohol. The reason the bubble moves to the centre as the spirit level becomes level is simple - the inside of the tube is slightly curved.

The differences in gravity on both sides of the level would be miniscule, and absolutely insignificant compared to, say, the surface tension of the liquid.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 07:32:45 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2019, 08:13:25 PM »
The reason the bubble migrates to the low end is because the force of gravity is stronger on the low end.  That is how a spirit level works...the bubble in the middle indicates that the gravitational force is equal across the length of the spirit level. 
This is not at all how a spirit level works in RET (or in any model, really). The air bubble moves towards the top because the density of air is lower than the density of the alcohol. The reason the bubble moves to the centre as the spirit level becomes level is simple - the inside of the tube is slightly curved.

The differences in gravity on both sides of the level would be miniscule, and absolutely insignificant compared to, say, the surface tension of the liquid.

That’s exactly how a spirit level works.  The bubble is always on the top of the vial because of density, but it’s only in the top of the middle when it’s level.

https://www.leveldevelopments.com/

I am on my phone so it’s hard to cut and paste but go to the section titled “Principles”.  I think you’ll find they specifically say the level works by gravity acting on the fluid in the vial.  Or really just go to any website or book about surveying and how to read a spirit level. The technical term that surveyors use for level is “perpendicular to gravity”.

Gravity is the baseline for level in RE model. What is the baseline in the FE model?





« Last Edit: September 14, 2019, 08:17:32 PM by pricelesspearl »

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2019, 08:33:42 AM »
That’s exactly how a spirit level works.
You're simply mistaken about this. The source you provided does not claim that the spirit level works due to a difference in gravity acting on two points merely an inch apart. This would be miniscule.

To drive the point home, you can use something like https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/KurtHeckman/Gravity+Acceleration+by+Altitude to compare the value of g on the round Earth's surface to the value of g 2.5cm off the ground - the most generous case for what you propose. You will notice that the difference is 0.00000008%20%5Cfrac%7Bm%7D%7Bs%5E2%7D. Knowing this, we can apply basic classical mechanics to estimate the time the bubble would take to traverse the 2.5cm tube if this, and nothing else, were the factor responsible for the bubble's movement.

x%3D%5Cfrac%7B1%7D%7B2%7Dat%5E2

0.025%3D0.5%20%5Ctimes%200.00000008%20%5Ctimes%20t%5E2

0.025%3D0.00000004%20%5Ctimes%20t%5E2

%5Cfrac%7B0.025%7D%7B0.00000004%7D%3Dt%5E2

t%5E2%20%3D%20625000

t%20%3D%20%5Csqrt%7B625000%7D%20%3D%20790.57%5Bs%5D

Since it does not take 13 minutes for the bubble to move from the bottom to top when the level is placed vertically, we can dismiss your proposal as patent nonsense.

While your interpretation of what you read leaves a lot to be desirted, it's obvious that in RET it will be due to gravity acting on the vial (or, well, the liquid and gas inside of it). The denser liquid tends downward, thus the bubble goes up. The reason "up" is in the centre of the tube when the spirit level is level is the curvature of the tube.

To summarise: in RET it's due to gravity (not a difference of gravity throughout the tube). In FET, it's due to UA, a force that's completely analogous in this scenario.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 09:04:13 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2019, 10:45:31 PM »
Quote
You're simply mistaken about this. The source you provided does not claim that the spirit level works due to a difference in gravity acting on two points merely an inch apart. This would be miniscule.

A level line is a line in a level surface. A level surface has all points perpendicular to the direction of gravity and hence is curved.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4757-1188-2_6

For, if one imagines holding a spirit level near the intruding mass, its extra gravitational pull draws the fluid of the level toward the mass thus forcing the bubble away.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4211/ch11-4.htm

“Level Surface …A level surface is a curved surface, every point on which is equidistant from the centre of the earth
https://books.google.com/books?

id=0fUIAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=%22spirit+level%22+gravity+surveying&source=bl&ots=xhQKkEEHpa&sig=ACfU3U2MFyw7M0Z2wHWi6XpKaCDIZpFxHQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJpMKEztPkAhWP9Z4KHVD1DqkQ6AEwDXoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Such a reference height is a level line or level surface and is defined as a surface on which all points are normal to the direction of gravity as defined by a suspended plumb bob. Since the surface of the Earth is curved, level surfaces are also curved, as shown in figure 2.1.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-349-07348-1_2

93. Level Surface- A level surface is a curved surface which at every point is perpendicular to the direction of gravity
https://books.google.com/books?

https://books.google.com/books?id=G6UEAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=all+points+equal+level+gravity+%22spirit+level%22&source=bl&ots=s6YXL10XzT&sig=ACfU3U1667EJZea_0bTNuyvlioZUPsam4w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwic1frR5tPkAhU0Pn0KHaF8D_YQ6AEwDnoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

I'll make this as simple as possible.  When all points are perpendicular to gravity, all points are the same distance to the center of gravity and therefore all points are subject to the same gravitational pull.  When all points are not perpendicular to gravity, some points are closer to the center of gravity and are therefore subject to more gravitational pull. Since fluids will respond to any force acting upon it, and fluids are more sensitive to gravitational pull than solids, a fluid will be pulled lower when it is closer to the center of gravity due to the increased level of gravitational pull.

Quote
Knowing this, we can apply basic classical mechanics to estimate the time the bubble would take to traverse the 2.5cm tube if this, and nothing else, were the factor responsible for the bubble's movement.

I have no idea what those calculations are supposed to prove. Gravity doesn't move the bubble at all.  Gravity determines where it falls when it is stationary and not subject to any other force.  Have you ever even used one?  An external force must be applied to move the bubble.

For, if one imagines holding a spirit level near the intruding mass, its extra gravitational pull draws the fluid of the level toward the mass thus forcing the bubble away.To counter this effect the end of the level nearer the mass must be tipped up to recenter the bubble. In other words, the level surface tips upward as one approaches the mass.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4211/ch11-4.htm

A fine-pitch tilting screw is turned manually to center the bubble in the vial of the spirit level. Compensator instruments depend on a: pendulous reflecting component, the compensator, within the optical system of the telescope. Responding to the attraction of gravity automatically renders the line of sight horizontal.

https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/GeodeticLeveling_Manual_NOS_NGS_3.pdf        (page 3-11)

The bubble should sit between the graduation marks. Where the bubble sits over or out of the graduation marks, adjust the left or right side. When the left side is too high the bubble will sit on the right side of the graduation marks and vice-versa for the opposite side. Using this as a guide, you can now make the necessary adjustment to create a perfectly level project

https://www.home-dzine.co.za/diy/diy-spiritlevel.htm

The only direction the bubble can move is along the axis of the tube. Once that axis is perpendicular to gravity, gravity does no work on the liquid, so the bubble stays in a fixed location.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/so-how-exactly-does-a-level-work.1745763/

To use a spirit level, set the body against the surface that you want to level. Since liquids naturally seek their own level, the air bubble in the capsule will be perfectly centered between the marks on the capsule when the spirit level is level. If the bubble floats to the left, raise the right side, and vice-versa.

https://everything2.com/title/Spirit+level

 
Quote
The reason "up" is in the centre of the tube when the spirit level is level is the curvature of the tube.

The bubble shows "up" whether it is in the middle of the tube or not.  It is always sits at the highest point of tube but only when it is level is the curve the highest point. If the level is tilted down to the right, the highest level will be slightly to the left of the curve and vice versa.

Quote
The reason "up" is in the centre of the tube when the spirit level is level is the curvature of the tube.

So UA causes things to move side to side?  That is the only direction the bubble moves.  As I pointed out above...it is always at the top of the tube and only moves side to side along the axis of tube, but it always at the top of tube.  A spirit level with a barrel vial doesn't even have a curve.. the bubble only moves side to side along the axis of the tube.



« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 01:05:50 AM by pricelesspearl »

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2019, 11:54:36 PM »
In case my explanation above was not clear enough, I’ll try another way.

If we define level as “perpendicular to gravity”… Gravity is a vertical force, so perpendicular means that level is at a right angle, perfectly horizontal to gravity.  In order to level or “unlevel” something, you can increase or decrease the level of gravitational force by changing the position of the object…by moving closer or farther away from the center of gravity.

If we define level as “perpendicular to UA”… UA is a vertical force, so perpendicular means that level is at a right angle, perfectly horizontal to UA.  In order to level or “unlevel” something, you cannot increase or decrease the level of UA by changing the position of the object.  UA is constant and consistent.  No matter what position the object is in, it will always be subject to the same level of “gravitational force” caused by UA.  Everything would have to level or "unlevel" all the time.  Moving an object makes no difference on the level of force.

So what does level mean on a flat earth with UA? And how is it measured with a spirit level? What changes relative to UA and the level cause the bubble to move?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 02:20:52 AM by pricelesspearl »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2019, 05:11:53 AM »
UA is constant and consistent.  No matter what position the object is in, it will always be subject to the same level of “gravitational force” caused by UA.  Everything would have to level or "unlevel" all the time.  Moving an object makes no difference on the level of force
I already explained why the difference in gravitational force cannot be the phenomenon responsible for the spirit level's function. Your objection relies on this fundamentally flawed assumption.

There is also the side issue of you completely ignoring celestial gravitation (which renders the product force both not constant and not consistent), but I think we should leave FET out of this when your understanding of the physics at play is so limited.

If we define level as “perpendicular to gravity”… Gravity is a vertical force, so perpendicular means that level is at a right angle, perfectly horizontal to gravity.  In order to level or “unlevel” something, you can increase or decrease the level of gravitational force by changing the position of the object…by moving closer or farther away from the center of gravity.
No, I already provided you with the calculations to explain why this is nonsense. If a change in magnitude of gravitational force was the main factor here, it would take the bubble something in the order of 13 minutes to traverse the tube. This does not occur in reality.

The force can be assumed to be constant for all practical intents and purposes. The change to the vector you should be focusing on is the direction, not magnitude.

I'm sorry, but we cannot meaningfully proceed with this conversation if you refuse to acknowledge how this works. None of the quotes you provided come even close to substantiating your position. All you've done is define "level" within the context of RET, and "explained" the consequences of tilting a spirit level. Meanwhile, your misunderstanding is in understanding how it happens, not that it does.

Statements like "fluids are more sensitive to gravitational pull than solids" only serve to further illustrate your inability to understand simple physics, and that's long before we even start discussing FET.

As always, I suggest an experimental approach if you want to broaden your understanding. Take a spirit level and try using it in a moving elevator, particularly as it accelerates and decelerates. Observe its impact (or lack thereof) on the bubble until you've reached your conclusions.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 05:19:08 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2019, 09:21:02 AM »
Never thought I'd type this phrase but: Pete is right here.
The difference in gravity between two sides of a non-level spirit level are far too small to have an effect here.
Spirit levels do work because of the force of gravity but if gravity was replaced by UA that acceleration would cause an equivalent force which would mean they'd still work.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.