Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #60 on: September 20, 2019, 05:04:55 PM »
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It is.

Sorry, I was in too big a hurry.  I meant to ask If the downward force is strong enough to keep the water on the bottom and the bubble uncentered when it is unlevel..why isn't it strong enough the keep the water on the bottom and the bubble uncentered when it is level?

The downward force is the same on the water, whether it is level or not.  So if that amount of force is sufficient to keep the bubble uncentered when unlevel, it should be sufficient to keep the bubble uncentered when it is level.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #61 on: September 20, 2019, 05:39:18 PM »
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It is.
why isn't it strong enough the keep the water on the bottom and the bubble uncentered when it is level?
How do you think the water can be at the bottom and it could be level and the bubble could be anywhere other than the centre?
Again, the bubble is just the bit where the water isn’t. If the water is at the bottom then the bubble is at the top. When it’s level the top is the centre, where else could the bubble be? ???
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #62 on: September 20, 2019, 05:52:22 PM »
I meant to ask If the downward force is strong enough to keep the water on the bottom and the bubble uncentered when it is unlevel..why isn't it strong enough the keep the water on the bottom and the bubble uncentered when it is level?
Once again, you're confused. The magnitude (or "strength", if you insist) of the force is irrelevant. It's the direction that matters.
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #63 on: September 20, 2019, 07:19:20 PM »

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Once again, you're confused. The magnitude (or "strength", if you insist) of the force is irrelevant. It's the direction that matters.


If the downward force is enough to keep the bubble and/or water in whatever position it is in at 45 degrees, it should be strong enough to keep it at that same position at 90 degrees.

It is a basic principle of motion that a body at rest, which would include bubbles and water, will stay at rest unless some force acts upon it.  So when you move the move the level, the only way the bubble and water can move is if you are applying additional force over and above what was already impacting it which means you are not just changing the direction or orientation of the level when you move it.  Secondly, only an unbalanced force can change the direction of an object.  UA is a balanced force, so to change the direction, some additional force must be applied.

Which is completely consistent with both UA and gravity.  But as I suggested earlier, the question becomes what happens when you stop applying the additional force?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 05:33:34 AM by pricelesspearl »

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2019, 06:53:34 AM »
Ok. Try this.

Take 2 beakers.
Half fill them with water.
Put one on a table and one in the freezer upright and wait till the water is frozen.

Take the beaker out of the freezer and put it on a table next to the on one which hasn’t been in the freezer.

Note how the level of the water and the level of the ice is parallel with the surface of the table (assuming the table is level and the beaker was level in the freezer).

Now tilt the two beakers.
What happens to the level of the water and the level of the ice?
Is it the same?
If it’s different, why is it different?

Understanding this is your key to understanding what happens in a spirit level when you change its orientation.

It’s not that an additional force is being applied, it’s that you have changed the orientation of the level with respect to the direction of the force acting on it.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2019, 04:57:36 PM »
 1.   Level is when all points are normal to the direction of gravity across its length.

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A level surface (plane) is one which is normal to the direction of gravity at all points in its length
https://www.studocu.com/en/document/university-of-johannesburg/surveying-3b21/lecture-notes/surveying-3b-chapter-4-introduction-to-vertical-distance-measurement-leveling/3878251/view


2.   Therefore, when a surface is not level, not all points are normal to the direction of gravity at all points in its length.

3.   When all points are not normal to the direction of gravity, the points experience differing degrees of gravitational pull because the normal force is always equal between gravity and the points in an object when the points in the object are normal to the direction of gravity.

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In a simple case such as an object resting upon a table, the normal force on the object is equal but in opposite direction to the gravitational force
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_force


4.   Therefore, when you adjust a spirit level from unlevel to level, you are adjusting it from not normal to the direction of gravity to normal to the direction of gravity and from all points not being under the same gravitational pull to all points being under the same gravitational pull.

Now if UA is analogous to gravity, we should be able to just substitute the “gravity” for “UA”.  This is what we get.

1.   Level is when all points are normal to the direction of UA force across its length.
2.   Therefore, when a surface is not level, not all points are normal to the direction of UA force at all points in its length.
3.   When all points are not normal to the direction of the force of UA, the points experience differing degrees of UA force because the normal force is always equal between the UA force and the points in an object when the points in the object are normal to the direction of the UA force.
4.   Therefore, when you adjust a spirit level from unlevel to level, you are adjusting it from not normal to the direction of UA force to normal to the direction of UA force and from all points not being under the same UA force to all points being under the same UA force..

Which of those points is incorrect?


« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 07:19:52 PM by pricelesspearl »

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #66 on: September 21, 2019, 09:31:26 PM »
Which of those points is incorrect?
Its point 3.
The orientation of the object or part of an object doesn't affect the magnitude of the gravitational force on it in any meaningful way.
It simply means the force acts in a different direction.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2019, 10:46:19 PM »
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Its point 3.
The orientation of the object or part of an object doesn't affect the magnitude of the gravitational force on it in any meaningful way.
It simply means the force acts in a different direction.

If the difference in gravitational pull among the points is enough to make the spirit level unlevel, eliminating the difference in gravitational pull is enough to make it level.  It is simple logic.

force in a different direction= level
level=all points equal gravitational force
force in a different direction=all points equal gravitational force




Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2019, 07:24:49 AM »
There isn’t a difference in gravitational pull among the points. This is the point you are repeatedly failing to understand.
The only difference when you change the orientation of the level is the direction the force acts. The magnitude of the force remains the same at all points of the level.
There is a tiny, tiny difference because one end of the level is higher and thus further from the centre of mass of earth but that is not what causes the liquid to move. It’s the difference in direction the force is acting in. And that’s why the cause of the force doesn’t matter.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2019, 12:26:03 PM »
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There isn’t a difference in gravitational pull among the points

Yes there is. Again, it is simple logic.

Level= normal to the direction of gravity
Normal to the direction of gravity=equal gravitational pull
Level = equal gravitational pull

Unlevel= not normal to the direction of gravity
Not normal to the direction of gravity = unequal gravitational pull
Unlevel= unequal gravitational pull

If level means equal gravitational pull and unlevel means unequal gravitational pull, there is a difference in the level of gravitational pull between level and unlevel.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2019, 01:32:34 PM »
If level means equal gravitational pull and unlevel means unequal gravitational pull, there is a difference in the level of gravitational pull between level and unlevel.
Indeed. If that’s what level means.
But that isn’t what level means.
You should know this.
You defined level correctly yourself above:

Level is when all points are normal to the direction of gravity across its length

Yes. That’s what level means. Changing the orientation of something which is level doesn’t mean the gravitational force becomes unequal, it just means the direction of the force is different. Still equal across the object, still the same magnitude as when the object was level just in a different direction, no longer normal to the object.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2019, 04:00:39 PM »
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Yes. That’s what level means. Changing the orientation of something which is level doesn’t mean the gravitational force becomes unequal

If you change the orientation from level to not level, that is exactly what it means.

You apparently don’t understand what the normal force is.  It is the force that opposes gravity.  When you are standing on the ground, gravity is pulling you down and the normal force of the ground is pushing you up. 

When something is “normal to the direction of gravity” it means that the normal force pushing it up is equal to the gravitational force pulling it down.
When you are standing normal to the direction of gravity, you don’t fall.  If you lean over far enough, eventually the gravitational force will be stronger than the normal force exerted by the ground and you fall down.

When a spirit level is level…when it is “normal to the direction of gravity”…the gravitational force on the bubble, which is pulling the bubble down, is equal to the normal force produced by the level, which is pushing it up.  If you tilt the level far enough, the gravitational force on the bubble becomes greater than the normal force produced by level…and the bubble “falls”.

In other words, saying that an object is level when all points are normal to the direction of gravity is just another way of saying that there is equal gravitational force on all points of the object. When something is not “normal to the direction of gravity” and is therefore not level is just another way of saying there the gravitational force is not equal.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2019, 05:00:23 PM »
When a spirit level is level…when it is “normal to the direction of gravity”…the gravitational force on the bubble, which is pulling the bubble down, is equal to the normal force produced by the level, which is pushing it up.  If you tilt the level far enough, the gravitational force on the bubble becomes greater than the normal force produced by level…and the bubble “falls”.

imagine a spirit level in which the 'air bubble' is evacuated.  there is no air in the tube, only liquid and a small bubble of vacuum.  now there is nothing inside the bubble for gravity to act on.  it can only act on the liquid.  how do you expect the spirit level to behave?  will it still work?  why or why not?
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2019, 12:12:29 AM »
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imagine a spirit level in which the 'air bubble' is evacuated.  there is no air in the tube, only liquid and a small bubble of vacuum.  now there is nothing inside the bubble for gravity to act on.  it can only act on the liquid.  how do you expect the spirit level to behave?  will it still work?  why or why not?

What you are suggesting is a non-sequitur and it is impossible for any logical conclusion to follow from it.

The bubble is just the air left in the vial as a result of it being incompletely filled. The bubble is just the absence of fluid.  What you are asking is "imagine there is no absence of fluid in the vial".  If there is no lack of fluid in the vial, the vial is completely full and will not move at all because it would be constrained by the walls of the vial.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 12:28:26 AM by pricelesspearl »

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2019, 01:16:13 AM »
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imagine a spirit level in which the 'air bubble' is evacuated.  there is no air in the tube, only liquid and a small bubble of vacuum.  now there is nothing inside the bubble for gravity to act on.  it can only act on the liquid.  how do you expect the spirit level to behave?  will it still work?  why or why not?

What you are suggesting is a non-sequitur and it is impossible for any logical conclusion to follow from it.

The bubble is just the air left in the vial as a result of it being incompletely filled. The bubble is just the absence of fluid.  What you are asking is "imagine there is no absence of fluid in the vial".  If there is no lack of fluid in the vial, the vial is completely full and will not move at all because it would be constrained by the walls of the vial.

no i'm saying imagine that there are no particles of any kind in the bubble.  imagine that the vial has liquid and a small bubble of vacuum.  now there is nothing in the bubble for gravity to act upon.  does the spirit level still work?
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2019, 03:43:11 PM »
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no i'm saying imagine that there are no particles of any kind in the bubble.  imagine that the vial has liquid and a small bubble of vacuum.  now there is nothing in the bubble for gravity to act upon.  does the spirit level still work?

I know what you are asking and you are asking me to speculate on what "nothing" would do in a particular circumstance.  A bubble without anything inside of it is, literally, nothing. 

For the sake of argument, however, no the spirit level would not work. The bubble rises to the top because of gravity and if there is nothing for the gravity to work on, it will not rise to the top of the vial.  Where the top of the vial is completely dependent on the position of the level and the fluid has nothing to do with it.

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2019, 04:04:32 PM »
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no i'm saying imagine that there are no particles of any kind in the bubble.  imagine that the vial has liquid and a small bubble of vacuum.  now there is nothing in the bubble for gravity to act upon.  does the spirit level still work?

I know what you are asking and you are asking me to speculate on what "nothing" would do in a particular circumstance.  A bubble without anything inside of it is, literally, nothing. 

For the sake of argument, however, no the spirit level would not work. The bubble rises to the top because of gravity and if there is nothing for the gravity to work on, it will not rise to the top of the vial.  Where the top of the vial is completely dependent on the position of the level and the fluid has nothing to do with it.
or the liquid falls the the bottom because of gravity, the bubble is just a lack of liquid. not really an entity of its own.
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2019, 04:21:21 PM »
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or the liquid falls the bottom because of gravity, the bubble is just a lack of liquid. not really an entity of its own.

Correct, I told him the exact same thing.  What he asking is....what would air do if there is not air in it? ::)

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2019, 05:02:43 PM »
Correct, I told him the exact same thing.
And yet, somehow, you reached a conclusion that's precisely opposite to "the exact same thing". If the bubble is just "a lack of liquid", then it does not matter whether it's air, helium, or vacuum.
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