Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2019, 04:03:49 PM »
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With UA, something is level when all points are perpendicular to the force created by UA. UA accelerates the earth upwards, the force points downwards. As it does with gravity. Yes yes, technically it's towards the centre of mass of the earth but that is to all intents and purposes downwards

Why is that true?  The amount of UA force on the level is the same whether it is perpendicular or not.
It's true because of what level means, or rather what the consequence of something being on a level surface is.
I showed this above:



Why does the ball roll down the slope? Because the force acts downwards.
The surface the ball is on is not perpendicular to that force. That means there is a component of the force acting down the slope.
If that force is greater than the friction force then the ball will roll.
If the ball was on a level - I'm defining that as perpendicular to the direction of the force acting downwards - then because the force is perpendicular to the surface the ball is on there is no sideways component of the force. So the ball remains stationary, assuming the surface the ball is on is solid and able to bear the weight of the ball.

Yes?

Now, notice above I haven't used the term gravity or UA. I've just said there's a force acting downwards.
The mechanism which causes that force is left as an exercise to the reader...
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2019, 04:14:53 PM »
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I don't care how you did it - you're contradicting basic geometry. Fix it. The fact that you're spitting out PDFs out of Nitro Pro and that you can't even center your lines properly does not make you look better - it makes you look worse.

When two points on a straight line are equal distance from a third…all points in between are also equal distance.  A circle is when all points are equidistant on a curved line.  A given point can be equidistant from points on either a straight or curved line and I specifically said “straight line”

And for the avoidance of doubt...Circle:  noun 1a closed plane curve consisting of all points at a given distance from a point within it called the center. Equation: x2 + y2 = r2.n. 

A straight line is neither a closed plane or a curve.

Arc: Geometry. any unbroken part of the circumference of a circle or other curved line

2 the portion of a plane bounded by such a curve.

Again...that word curve.

www.dictionary.com


If you don’t like how I did it, I’d be happy to look at something you have drawn up.

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No. I already told you what they show

Yes you did.  You mentioned that they show the rate of movement when nothing but gravity is working on the level.  But since I have never suggested that it is only gravity that works on the level, your 13 minutes is meaningless…and by the way, when only gravity is working on something…it doesn’t move at all…so even your 13 minutes is wrong.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 04:39:58 PM by pricelesspearl »

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2019, 04:41:45 PM »
When two points on a straight line are equal distance from a third…all points in between are also equal distance.
Nope. Once again, I invite you to test your hypothesis with a ruler.

You're doing an excellent job illustrating my points about RE zealots, by the way.

You mentioned that they show the rate of movement when nothing but gravity is working on the level.
Perhaps unsurprisingly at this point, that's not at all what I said. You're welcome to re-read my explanation at your leisure, including a description of how you can verify your hypothesis experimentally.

But since I have never suggested that it is only gravity that works on the level
Awesome, let's hear it. What other forces "work on the level" when it's stationary relative to the ground? Choose whichever orientation you'd like.

…and by the way, when only gravity is working on something…it doesn’t move at all…
That's "falling" you're talking about. You're saying that objects falling is not a thing that happens.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 04:49:45 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2019, 05:06:13 PM »
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Perhaps unsurprisingly at this point, that's not at all what I said. You're welcome to re-read my explanation at your leisure, including a description of how you can verify your hypothesis experimentally.
I believe what you said was...

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if this, and nothing else, were the factor responsible for the bubble's movement .

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Awesome, let's hear it. What other forces "work on the level" when it's stationary relative to the ground? Choose whichever orientation you'd like.

I specifically said, on multiple occasions and in multiple different ways…that it is not gravity that makes the bubble move.  It is gravity that determines where it lands.  And that it takes external force on the level to move bubble.  Once the bubble has landed and is stationary, then gravity holds it where it lands and is the only force impacting it. But I never suggested that gravity is what makes the bubble move when it is stationary on the ground. 

Specifically, I said
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I have no idea what those calculations are supposed to prove. Gravity doesn't move the bubble at all.  Gravity determines where it falls when it is stationary and not subject to any other force.  Have you ever even used one?  An external force must be applied to move the bubble.

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2019, 05:17:05 PM »
I believe what you said was...

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if this, and nothing else, were the factor responsible for the bubble's movement .
Indeed. Of course, now you need to read the context before to remind yourself what "this" is.

I specifically said, on multiple occasions and in multiple different ways…that it is not gravity that makes the bubble move.
The question you were just asked concerns what you think does cause it to move, not what doesn't.

But I never suggested that gravity is what makes the bubble move when it is stationary on the ground.
Yes, that's part of the problem. ;)
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2019, 10:42:51 PM »
Here is the context
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To drive the point home, you can use something like https://www.vcalc.com/wiki/KurtHeckman/Gravity+Acceleration+by+Altitude to compare the value of g on the round Earth's surface to the value of g 2.5cm off the ground - the most generous case for what you propose. You will notice that the difference is "results offormula for difference between high and low level"..(it wouldn't let me insert the image). Knowing this, we can apply basic classical mechanics to estimate the time the bubble would take to traverse the 2.5cm tube if this, and nothing else, were the factor responsible for the bubble's movement.

“This” refers to  results of formula for difference between high and low level"..( …the difference between the gravitational on the low end and high of the level.  So when you refer to “it” it implies that I am suggested that the gravitational difference is what moves the bubble, even though I never said that. I don't see how adding "context" changes my original comment.

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The question you were just asked concerns what you think does cause it to move, not what doesn't.
And I answered it when I said…
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And that it takes external force on the level to move bubble.
in response to the question.

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Yes, that's part of the problem.

Only for you, because apparently you and AATW have both been operating on the misunderstanding that I had suggested that gravity is what makes the bubble move when it is stationary on the ground, despite repeating multiple time that was not what I said.

That misunderstanding conveniently allowed you to deflect from the actual argument I have been making all along.  Which is...

The bubble in the level will always seek the highest point of the tube.  The highest point is only in the middle when level.  In the RE model, when you change the position, the bubble will land according to the gravitational pull.  If it is equal, it will land in the middle.

In the FE model, when you change the position, does the bubble land according to the force of UA?  If it does, the bubble should land in the exact same place it was before you moved the level… because the force of UA should be the same.
 
With gravity, the only reason that moving the level more horizontal causes the bubble to land in the middle is because you are “equalizing” the gravitational force across the level. Moving the level more horizontal with UA doesn’t do that.  The force of UA is always equal across the level so moving it horizontally shouldn’t have any effect…if the bubble is landing according to the degree of UA force.




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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2019, 07:18:07 AM »
“This” refers to  results of formula for difference between high and low level"..( …the difference between the gravitational on the low end and high of the level. 
Thank you for correcting yourself. One down, $BIGNUM to go!

Only for you, because apparently you and AATW have both been operating on the misunderstanding that I had suggested that gravity is what makes the bubble move when it is stationary on the ground, despite repeating multiple time that was not what I said.
In RET, gravity is what moves the bubble once the level is stationary. The problem is precisely that you keep claiming the opposite.

Your assertion is that "an external force" is responsible instead. Which force, specifically? Name it, identify its source, and give us an idea of the magnitude and direction.

In the RE model, when you change the position, the bubble will land according to the gravitational pull.  If it is equal, it will land in the middle.
This continues to be false, and you already had it explained by two people, in a variety of ways. It is not the magnitude of gravity that changes (in any meaningful way for the purpose of this discussion), but the direction, relative to the level's horizontal plane.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 07:24:03 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2019, 09:01:31 AM »
With gravity, the only reason that moving the level more horizontal causes the bubble to land in the middle is because you are “equalizing” the gravitational force across the level. Moving the level more horizontal with UA doesn’t do that.  The force of UA is always equal across the level so moving it horizontally shouldn’t have any effect…if the bubble is landing according to the degree of UA force.
Once more for the cheap seats: It's not the magnitude of the force which determines where the bubble ends up, it's the direction of the force.
That is true whatever the mechanism causing the force is.
I've explained this above and I reiterate you're focusing too much on the bubble. You need to understand that it's the liquid that moves.
The result of the liquid moving is the bubble does.

On earth the surface of a liquid will always be perpendicular to the force acting downwards on it. I have explained why above.
Otherwise the surface of the liquid would be sloping - no longer perpendicular to the force.
This would cause sideways forces which makes the liquid "level" again - I'm defining level as "perpendicular to the downwards force".
With a more viscous liquid you could see this happening.
Note that this doesn't happen in space, it only happens on earth because there is a downwards force acting on the liquid.

The mechanism which causes that downwards force is not relevant.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2019, 10:19:06 AM »
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This continues to be false, and you already had it explained by two people, in a variety of ways. It is not the magnitude of gravity that changes (in any meaningful way for the purpose of this discussion), but the direction, relative to the level's horizontal plane.

https://www.studocu.com/en/document/university-of-johannesburg/surveying-3b21/lecture-notes/surveying-3b-chapter-4-introduction-to-vertical-distance-measurement-leveling/3878251/view


Is that stated clearly and plainly enough for you to understand?

How about this?

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The principle of operation is that the bubble will move to the highest point of the radius as gravity acts on the liquid inside the vial


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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2019, 10:25:44 AM »
Yes, that's wonderfully simple. Now you just need to read it and take the information in. None of what you cited comes even close to substantiating your claims, and the specific quote you provided indicated that it is gravity that moves the bubble - the opposite of the claim you're supposed to be defending.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, it also states that "A Level surface (plane) is one which is normal to the direction of gravity at all points in its length." Compare and contrast to your own claim: "level" with gravity means that that force of gravity is equal across the level

Note how your source discusses the direction (as we did), and not the magnitude (as you're trying to). Note how it doesn't talk about any forces being "equal".

Your source also does a fantastic job of explaining why the line you were discussing cannot be straight - despite you insisting that it was the very definition of "straight".

Ultimately, the issue here is that you think we don't understand you, and that you just need to keep clarifying your meaning until it sinks in. We understand what you're saying, it's just that what you're saying is laughably wrong, and every single source you provided to date ended up flat out contradicting you. This discussion cannot meaningfully continue until you develop a basic understanding of physics (to understand how a spirit level works), geometry (to understand that circles are not straight lines, and the significance of a direction and magnitude of any given vector), and the English language (so that you stop taking sources that directly contradict you and present them as something that helps your case).


Also, you forgot to answer the question:

Your assertion is that "an external force" is responsible instead. Which force, specifically? Name it, identify its source, and give us an idea of the magnitude and direction.
:)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 10:33:44 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #50 on: September 20, 2019, 10:49:52 AM »
How about this?

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The performance of the spirit level is governed by the geometrical relationship between the bubble and the two references. That is –
The first reference is an effect of gravity and the second one is a scale against which the bubble is read.

Translation: As the geometric relationship (the relative position to each other) between the level and  is what governs the performance of the level.  When you change the position of the level, it changes the way gravity acts on the level and determines where the bubble lands in reference to the scale.

https://gaugehow.com/spirit-level/

I will address your other comments in a bit, I need to get to work.








Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #51 on: September 20, 2019, 10:57:57 AM »
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Once more for the cheap seats: It's not the magnitude of the force which determines where the bubble ends up, it's the direction of the force.
That is true whatever the mechanism causing the force is

No matter what position the level is in, with UA it is still accelerating at the same rate and in the same direction.

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The mechanism which causes that downwards force is not relevant.

That is correct.  It is the relationship between the level and the force that is relevant.   Moving the level makes no difference in the relationship between UA an the level, so moving the level should  have no effect on how it performs.

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2019, 11:00:12 AM »
No matter what position the level is in, with UA it is still accelerating at the same rate and in the same direction.
No - the direction relative to the spirit level does change. That's the whole point.
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2019, 12:32:18 PM »
No matter what position the level is in, with UA it is still accelerating at the same rate and in the same direction.

UA is still accelerating in the same direction. What has changed is the orientation of the level relative to that direction.

When you change the position of the level, it changes the way gravity acts on the level and determines where the bubble lands in reference to the scale.

Also correct. The level is no longer perpendicular to the direction of gravity, that changes the way gravity acts on it.

Moving the level makes no difference in the relationship between UA an the level, so moving the level should  have no effect on how it performs.

Oh dear. You were doing so well, too.
Dude, come on. You're nearly there...
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2019, 01:43:42 PM »
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No - the direction relative to the spirit level does change. That's the whole point.

The direction is always "up".

When the level is at 45 degree angle, the low end is accelerating up at 9.80665 m/s2 and the high end is accelerating up 9.80665 m/s2.  The low end is accelerating in the same direction and subject to the same amount of force as the high end and the bubble is not level.

When the level is at 90 degree angle the left side is accelerating up at 9.80665 m/s2 and the right side is accelerating up at 9.80665 m/s2.  The left side and the right side are accelerating in the same  direction and subject to the same amount force.  Why is the bubble in the middle at a 90 degree angle and not a 45 degree angle when in both cases, they are accelerating in the same direction and subject to the same amount of force?

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Your assertion is that "an external force" is responsible instead. Which force, specifically? Name it, identify its source, and give us an idea of the magnitude and direction.

It could be any force....the wind or whatever, but in general it would be somebody physically moving it...see my references below.

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Your source also does a fantastic job of explaining why the line you were discussing cannot be straight - despite you insisting that it was the very definition of "straight".

Ok, let's think about it for a minute.  I think we can safely assume the source would agree that the earth is round and I think we can also safely assume that the source would agree that a level is straight.

The source clearly says that "level" means that all points are equal distance from gravity, so it would follow that the source would also agree that a straight level can indicate all points an equal distance from gravity on a round earth.  It wouldn't make much sense for a surveyor to use a spirit level if that surveyor didn't believe that a straight level could indicate all points are equal distance from gravity if the earth is round.

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In RET, gravity is what moves the bubble once the level is stationary. The problem is precisely that you keep claiming the opposite.
No, it isn’t the RET position that what moves the bubble once the level is stationary is gravity.  I have already offered several references to prove that, but here are some of the more clear ones again. 

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When the left side is too high the bubble will sit on the right side of the graduation marks and vice-versa for the opposite side. Using this as a guide, you can now make the necessary adjustment to create a perfectly level project.
Translation: In order for the level the bubble, you have to adjust the level
https://www.home-dzine.co.za/diy/diy-spiritlevel.htm

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If the bubble floats to the left, raise the right side, and vice-versa.
Translation: In order to move the bubble, you have to manually raise or lower the level.
https://everything2.com/title/Spirit+level

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To counter this effect the end of the level nearer the mass must be tipped up to recenter the bubble. In other words, the level surface tips upward as one approaches the mass.
Translation:  You have to tip the level in order to center the bubble.
https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4211/ch11-4.htm

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For example, if a bubble is off to the right, then your surface rises to the right. Conversely, that same surface could be described as sloping down to the left. It’s a matter of perspective. Adjust your area or the object as necessary and repeat until you get a level reading you desire.
Translation: You have to adjust the object you are leveling relative to the level for the bubble to read level
https://www.keson.com/how-to-read-a-spirit-level/

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Now, looking at the vial which is at right angle to the base of the spirit level – if the bubble is between the marks, the surface is vertical. If the bubble sits outside the marks, move the level until the bubble is centrally placed.
That one really shouldn’t need any translation.
https://www.actavodirect.com/blog/how-to-use-spirit-levels/

Neither should the next one.
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Where the bubble sits over or out of the graduation marks, adjust the spirit level to the left or right.
https://www.property24.com/articles/how-to-use-a-spirit-level/17759

Let me know if these are not enough.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 02:02:34 PM by pricelesspearl »

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2019, 01:46:17 PM »
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Oh dear. You were doing so well, too.
Dude, come on. You're nearly there...

I will simply repeat the question I asked Pete...

When the level is at 45 degree angle, the low end is accelerating up at 9.80665 m/s2 and the high end is accelerating up 9.80665 m/s2.  The low end is accelerating in the same direction and subject to the same amount of force as the high end and the bubble is not level.

When the level is at 90 degree angle the left side is accelerating up at 9.80665 m/s2 and the right side is accelerating up at 9.80665 m/s2.  The left side and the right side are accelerating in the same direction and subject to the same amount force and the bubble is in the middle.

When you move the level from 45 degrees to 90 degrees you have not changed the relationship between the UA force and the level relative to the direction it is moving or the amount of force on it.  It is always accelerating up at 9.80665 m/s2, always accelerating up at the same rate all the way across the level, and always subject to the same amount of force all across the level.  One end or side is not subject to any more force and is not accelerating at a faster rate, no matter the position of the level.

Why is the bubble in the middle at a 90 degree angle and not a 45 degree angle when in both cases, they are accelerating in the same direction and subject to the same amount of force?


« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 02:47:13 PM by pricelesspearl »

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2019, 02:50:49 PM »
The direction is always "up".
There are only so many times I can say the same thing over and over.

The magnitude doesn't have any effect here.

The direction of the force, relative to the spirit level, is not always up. Not only because it changes, but also because "up" is meaningless in this context.

You lack the ability to understand fundamental maths and physics. This conversation will not proceed until you resolve that. You cannot meaningfully defend RET without understanding its basics.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 02:53:18 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2019, 03:06:05 PM »
Why is the bubble in the middle at a 90 degree angle and not a 45 degree angle when in both cases, they are accelerating in the same direction and subject to the same amount of force?
In both cases the bubble is at the top of the tube. And that's because the water is at the bottom.
Again, it's not the bubble that moves, it's the liquid. The downward force acting on the liquid makes it "find its level", the surface of the liquid remains perpendicular to the force acting on it.
Try this diagram. It's the same as one I posted above but in this one I've drawn arrows which indicate the direction of the downward force acting on the level.



The water stays at the bottom because of the downward force, that means the bubble stays at the top.
It's only when the level is at a 90 degree angle (to the downward force) that the middle of the tube and the top of the tube are in the same place.
That's how you know the tube is level.

Again, the source of the downward force is irrelevant.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2019, 04:45:40 PM »
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The water stays at the bottom because of the downward force, that means the bubble stays at the top
.

If the downward force is strong enough to keep the water on the bottom when it’s not level, why isn’t it strong enough to keep it on the bottom when it is level?  The downward force doesn’t change.

It is simple logic
Downward force @ 9.8m/s2  = water level at bottom
Water level at bottom=unlevel
Downward force=unlevel

Downward force @ 9.8m/s2  = bubble at top
bubble at top=level
Downward force=level

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Re: Spirit Levels on a Flat Earth
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2019, 04:46:57 PM »
If the downward force is strong enough to keep the water on the bottom when it’s not level, why isn’t it strong enough to keep it on the bottom when it is level?
It is.
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