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Offline Tau

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2014, 12:41:20 AM »
As for the death penalty, it has its place. Some people simply deserve death for their crimes. It's not a question of prevention or cost-effectiveness so much as it is having an ultimate penalty, and simply justice.

As far as I'm aware, there is no absolute way of establishing guilt. In terms of penalties, you don't get much more absolute than death.

If you are proven not guilty you shouldn't spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder. That's idiotic. I'd rather a few guilty people get away than a few innocent people be jailed unjustly.

What about those executed unjustly?

If someone walks into a school with a gun and shoots a bunch of kids and is seen on 20 cameras and is arrested at the scene of the crime holding the gun, I fail to see why we should be worrying that he might be innocent. That's the kind of scenario I'm talking about.
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Offline spank86

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2014, 12:42:48 AM »

If someone walks into a school with a gun and shoots a bunch of kids and is seen on 20 cameras and is arrested at the scene of the crime holding the gun, I fail to see why we should be worrying that he might be innocent. That's the kind of scenario I'm talking about.
That's a pretty rare scenario.

I have no evidence But I'd hazard a guess it would make up less than 1% of public executions.

call it less than 5% to be safe.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2014, 12:52:34 AM »

If someone walks into a school with a gun and shoots a bunch of kids and is seen on 20 cameras and is arrested at the scene of the crime holding the gun, I fail to see why we should be worrying that he might be innocent. That's the kind of scenario I'm talking about.
That's a pretty rare scenario.

I have no evidence But I'd hazard a guess it would make up less than 1% of public executions.

call it less than 5% to be safe.

At no point did I claim the American justice system's handling of the death penalty was the right way to do it. I just said that complete abolishment of it is dumb. In certain cases of rape, murder, and human trafficking death is an appropriate punishment.
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Offline spank86

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2014, 01:03:38 AM »

At no point did I claim the American justice system's handling of the death penalty was the right way to do it. I just said that complete abolishment of it is dumb. In certain cases of rape, murder, and human trafficking death is an appropriate punishment.
I disagree but I respect your opinion.

My personal feeling is that the death penalty is not justice but revenge. The stats in america would suggest it's not even particularly cost effective.

The funny thing is that if a criminal kills themselves there's usually an immediate outcry about how they escaped justice, somewhat contradictory.

There's also the aspect that for the religious among us if you kill someone you deny them the possibility of redemption.

That said I'm not religious and although my personal preference is for a proper LIFE imprisonment as oppose to the death penalty I have no great issue with it as long as people know the consequences beforehand. Well, no issues aside from the miscarriages of justice possibilities.

Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2014, 02:05:34 AM »
The death penalty costs quite a bit due to people sentenced to death being on death row for 20-30 years and going through appeal after appeal on their sentence.  We recently had a case in my area where the person who was sentenced to be executed was on death row since '97 and had gone through so many appeals that the judge actually refused to allow him more.  He also didn't want more appeals to be filed but his family decided to keep filing appeals, but he wanted to just let his sentence go through and stop fighting.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2014, 02:14:15 AM »

At no point did I claim the American justice system's handling of the death penalty was the right way to do it. I just said that complete abolishment of it is dumb. In certain cases of rape, murder, and human trafficking death is an appropriate punishment.
I disagree but I respect your opinion.

My personal feeling is that the death penalty is not justice but revenge. The stats in america would suggest it's not even particularly cost effective.

The funny thing is that if a criminal kills themselves there's usually an immediate outcry about how they escaped justice, somewhat contradictory.

There's also the aspect that for the religious among us if you kill someone you deny them the possibility of redemption.

That said I'm not religious and although my personal preference is for a proper LIFE imprisonment as oppose to the death penalty I have no great issue with it as long as people know the consequences beforehand. Well, no issues aside from the miscarriages of justice possibilities.

Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases? Also, since we're talking about incredibly violent people here it protects people from them permanently. Even if they're just in jail, their fellow prisoners deserve protection from the truly crazy people.

And as Duck said, it's only so expensive because of appeals. If we only executed the people who were not in any way at risk of being innocent, the system could be designed such that this was not a problem.

I read somewhere that mortality rates are higher among low level gang members than they are among death row inmates in America. That in itself speaks volumes about how broken the system is.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2014, 03:16:04 AM »
Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases?
In a justice system, yes.
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Offline Tau

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2014, 03:22:14 AM »
Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases?
In a justice system, yes.

Why? That's a pretty broad generalization.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2014, 03:26:48 AM »
Why? That's a pretty broad generalization.
Because justice systems are designed to exact justice, not revenge.
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Offline Tau

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2014, 03:48:57 AM »
Why? That's a pretty broad generalization.
Because justice systems are designed to exact justice, not revenge.

Don't give me truisms, I'm asking for actual logic.
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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2014, 05:36:08 AM »
In certain cases of rape, murder, and human trafficking death is an appropriate punishment.

Punishment is a behavioural alteration technique that relies on the target's awareness of the fact they are being punished in order to possibly succeed. Dead people are not aware of much of anything, let alone capable of repenting for a crime, so to execute a criminal as punishment is to defeat the purpose of punishment.

Has this already been brought up? Probably, but I'm lazy.

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2014, 05:52:53 AM »
Quibbling over whether or not something is "revenge" is a silly argument.  Revenge (or retribution, or societal vengeance, or whatever you want to call it) is a major element of every criminal justice system in the world, including those that don't have the death penalty.  You can still criticize that element of criminal justice, of course, but it makes no sense to single out the death penalty.

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2014, 06:48:59 AM »
Don't give me truisms, I'm asking for actual logic.
You're asking for logic to dispute your claim that the justice system should do something else than what it was designed to do. The fact that it can be dismissed with a truism is a problem with your argument, not my response to it. If you'd like to discuss something where logic is involved, make an argument that doesn't disprove itself.
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Offline Sean

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2014, 07:36:32 AM »
But also, Amanda Knox is innocent super clearly.
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Offline spank86

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2014, 10:38:56 AM »

Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases? Also, since we're talking about incredibly violent people here it protects people from them permanently. Even if they're just in jail, their fellow prisoners deserve protection from the truly crazy people.

It's inconsistent. That's why I'm also against giving the victim a say in sentencing (a proposal that gets mooted from time to time). I don't believe a sentence should be mitigated by how benevolent your victim was nor do I believe that Justice should be a vehicle for revenge. I believe the main purpose of the justice system is or at least should be deterrent (at the very least it should deter reoffending)

And as Duck said, it's only so expensive because of appeals. If we only executed the people who were not in any way at risk of being innocent, the system could be designed such that this was not a problem.
It still makes me question the aspect of it where people see a suicide as escaping punishment but an execution as being it.

I read somewhere that mortality rates are higher among low level gang members than they are among death row inmates in America. That in itself speaks volumes about how broken the system is.

I don't think it's possible to fix the system fully. I also don't think it's necessary. It certainly needs adjustment but there is no perfect system on an individual level, you can only work towards a good system on a national level and that's one that best deters offending and re-offending and Americas record doesn't show that it does this currently.

Quibbling over whether or not something is "revenge" is a silly argument.  Revenge (or retribution, or societal vengeance, or whatever you want to call it) is a major element of every criminal justice system in the world, including those that don't have the death penalty.  You can still criticize that element of criminal justice, of course, but it makes no sense to single out the death penalty.
I disagree. I would characterize those aspects of it as deterrent.

I would rate the effectiveness of any justice system by the level of crimes in a country, the less crimes per head the more effective the system.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 10:41:16 AM by spank86 »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2014, 12:32:22 PM »
But also, Amanda Knox is innocent super clearly.

Did you read a transcript of the case or are you basing your opinion off of a Wikipedia article?

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Offline markjo

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2014, 04:17:15 PM »
Isn't it true in all nations that either side can appeal to a higher Court if they lose in one of the lower?
You appeal guilty verdicts, not innocent verdicts.
Well YOU do sure, but can't the prosecution appeal to a higher court?
Not if your legal system prohibits double jeopardy.
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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2014, 04:56:24 PM »
Quibbling over whether or not something is "revenge" is a silly argument.  Revenge (or retribution, or societal vengeance, or whatever you want to call it) is a major element of every criminal justice system in the world, including those that don't have the death penalty.  You can still criticize that element of criminal justice, of course, but it makes no sense to single out the death penalty.
I disagree. I would characterize those aspects of it as deterrent.

That wasn't an opinion.  You are objectively wrong if you think that the only thought that goes into putting a criminal in prison is deterrence.  Punishment is and always has been a big part of it.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2014, 05:21:12 PM »
Quibbling over whether or not something is "revenge" is a silly argument.  Revenge (or retribution, or societal vengeance, or whatever you want to call it) is a major element of every criminal justice system in the world, including those that don't have the death penalty.  You can still criticize that element of criminal justice, of course, but it makes no sense to single out the death penalty.

This is essentially my position. I prefer the term "paying the debt to society".

I'm going to ignore Pizaa's rebuttals until he gives something of substance. His empty rhetoric doesn't make for much of a debate.


Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases? Also, since we're talking about incredibly violent people here it protects people from them permanently. Even if they're just in jail, their fellow prisoners deserve protection from the truly crazy people.

It's inconsistent. That's why I'm also against giving the victim a say in sentencing (a proposal that gets mooted from time to time). I don't believe a sentence should be mitigated by how benevolent your victim was nor do I believe that Justice should be a vehicle for revenge. I believe the main purpose of the justice system is or at least should be deterrent (at the very least it should deter reoffending)

No, of course. As I said, I'm not talking about the kind of case that currently gives the death penalty is America. I'm talking about situations where, for example, a person has been deeply involved with human trafficking for years and was caught red handed. Someone who made their living off of selling children off to be sex slaves. You can't rehabilitate such a person, and their debt to society is nigh on infinite. So we have two options. Either we give life in prison or we kill them. The right of such a person to live is frankly not a significant factor in my opinion, considering the crime. So it comes down to utilitarianism, and life in prison is expensive.

Quote
And as Duck said, it's only so expensive because of appeals. If we only executed the people who were not in any way at risk of being innocent, the system could be designed such that this was not a problem.
It still makes me question the aspect of it where people see a suicide as escaping punishment but an execution as being it.

I think that's more influenced by people wanting to be outraged than anything else. I've always been rather offended by people who say things like that, suicide having been a major part of my life. Suicide isn't the easy way out. People just like to be angry.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2014, 07:29:18 PM »
Does anyone here support rehabilitative models of criminal justice?