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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Sean on January 30, 2014, 10:24:22 PM

Title: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 30, 2014, 10:24:22 PM
Not that it matters, she won't be sent back to Italy. But seriously, Italy, wtf? I am glad to live in a country where the legal system works.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Blanko on January 30, 2014, 10:28:37 PM
Oh, I thought you lived in America.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 30, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
The legal system here works quite well, perhaps shitty laws, but the court system here works rather well. But that is really beside the point. Amanda Knox is very likely not guilty, but even then, I am a whole fan of the double jeopardy thing here in America. Italy is retarted. Leave Amanda alone, jesus.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 30, 2014, 10:37:55 PM
Quote
forensic analysis showed that bloody fingerprints from the crime scene could not be matched to any of the three in custody, but instead were matched to a local small-time drug dealer and petty thief named Rudy Hermann Guede.

Quote
Rudy admitted that he had been in the cottage the night Meredith died, and that they had had consensual sex that night. But he maintained that he didn't kill her. Rudy insisted that that someone broke in and killed Meredith while he was in the bathroom

lol ok.

Wtf Italy? What are you doing to this poor girl?

Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Thork on January 30, 2014, 11:03:51 PM
I am glad to live in a country where the legal system works.
Yeah, you are a really progressive nation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25972950 ::)
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 30, 2014, 11:09:31 PM
Not sure where you're going with that, but you can make another thread if you want. Why are the Italians torturing this poor, innocent, American woman?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Thork on January 30, 2014, 11:10:26 PM
Erm, because she is a murderer? Why is America allowing a convicted murderer to walk around in a nation that sells guns?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 30, 2014, 11:16:53 PM
Unjustly convicted, the ruling was overturned, then "hey, what the hell, let's give it one more shot!" because the Italian justice system got shit for succumbing to American pressure. It's ridiculous. They have no evidence against her, and are covering their own asses. Good thing she won't be extradited.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Thork on January 30, 2014, 11:19:03 PM
They have no evidence against her
Except the DNA evidence supplied.

Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on January 30, 2014, 11:26:06 PM
The fact that she acted very weird at the time of her arrest and kept lying hasn't done her any favours.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 30, 2014, 11:28:02 PM
Amanda Knox- the Italian OJ.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 30, 2014, 11:41:02 PM
The fact that she acted very weird at the time of her arrest and kept lying hasn't done her any favours.

If you were being interrogated nonstop for several days after the murder of your friend, you would probably start saying and doing odd things too.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Rama Set on January 30, 2014, 11:56:33 PM
Sean-I don't think you should hold the US justice system much higher than the Italian. This study indicates approximately 10,000 people/year in the US are wrongfully convicted. The US even executes some of them.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/ronhuff.htm
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 31, 2014, 12:10:47 AM
They have no evidence against her
Except the DNA evidence supplied.



They found Knox's DNA on a kitchen knife handle she used to prepare food?!
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on January 31, 2014, 02:43:02 AM
In Murica we operate by the idea that you can only be tried for a law once, and that's how it should be. I really don't know why a lot of European countries haven't gotten that memo yet. Italy is frankly barbaric with their legal system. Remember when they charged a bunch of scientists with murder for not magically predicting earthquakes?

As for the death penalty, it has its place. Some people simply deserve death for their crimes. It's not a question of prevention or cost-effectiveness so much as it is having an ultimate penalty, and simply justice. In a case like the Boston Bombing where there's exactly 0% chance (excepting some of Katsung's theories) that the accused is innocent, I fail to see why the death penalty is wrong.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 31, 2014, 03:49:51 AM
In Murica we operate by the idea that you can only be tried for a law once, and that's how it should be.
And if the judiciary makes a mistake, or new evidence comes into light, we should just go "You may have gotten away this time, but we'll get you yet!". 10/10 best system let's implement immediately.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 31, 2014, 03:57:37 AM
Or, PP, someone who's innocent can't spend their life in court , sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Rama Set on January 31, 2014, 04:10:41 AM
Amanda Knox was not convicted on a second trial anyway, it was an appeal.  There was a maximum of two allowed.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Blanko on January 31, 2014, 04:11:28 AM
Or, PP, someone who's innocent can't spend their life in court , sounds good to me.

Innocent people don't get convicted in America? Didn't know that one.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 31, 2014, 04:15:03 AM
I think, in the US, you can appeal a guilty verdict, but that's it. Which makes sense
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 31, 2014, 04:15:36 AM
Innocent people don't get convicted in America? Didn't know that one.
Sean's claim seems to be that someone that's found innocent would be called to court again, and again, and again. Of course, we know how rarely that happens, so that argument won't have much sway on us, but imagine how convincing it must sound to someone who only thinks of it as a principle! Then again, with the way the American judiciary works, that probably would happen...
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 31, 2014, 04:18:07 AM
The principle is sound though
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 31, 2014, 04:20:03 AM
The principle is sound though
By "the principle" you must mean something completely different from what I described, unless you simultaneously agree and disagree with the idea.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Blanko on January 31, 2014, 04:28:32 AM
Wait, what? The issue is that potentially very guilty people have to attend court more than once, even in light of new evidence?

Jeez, you people are putting more strain on regular citizens through jury duty than you are on your criminals.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 31, 2014, 04:53:41 AM
Didn't we have a discussion a few weeks ago where the Eurofags criticized our justice system for being too hard on criminals?  And now they're complaining that it's too soft?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Blanko on January 31, 2014, 04:58:30 AM
Exactly. It's simultaneously too soft and too hard. And you people say your system is fine.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 31, 2014, 05:11:18 AM
Blanko, I hate the goddamn system!  But until someone comes along with changes that make sense, I'll stick with it.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on January 31, 2014, 11:11:51 AM
I think her good looks have probably influenced this trial.

If an ugly tattooed bloke was on trial he would probably still be in jail.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Hoppy on January 31, 2014, 12:45:33 PM
I think her good looks have probably influenced this trial.

If an ugly tattooed bloke was on trial he would probably still be in jail.
The English courts would take that stance, Amercan courts are not like that.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on January 31, 2014, 01:29:41 PM
I think, in the US, you can appeal a guilty verdict, but that's it. Which makes sense

Well that's not precuisely true, In the Louise Woodward case the district prosecutor appealed to the supreme court after an appeal court reduced her sentence to involuntary manslaughter.

Seems to me like that parallels this situation quite closely.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Rama Set on January 31, 2014, 01:56:40 PM
Punishments are too hard. Process is not thorough enough.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: beardo on January 31, 2014, 02:06:05 PM
(http://www.soundonsight.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/MAX-Punisher-Cocina-irlandesa_03.jpg)
"Time for a trip to Italy..."
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on January 31, 2014, 04:31:51 PM
I think her good looks have probably influenced this trial.

If an ugly tattooed bloke was on trial he would probably still be in jail.
The English courts would take that stance, Amercan courts are not like that.

I think you mean the Italian court.

American courts allow cameras into their court rooms (the UK has started to do that now as well unfortunately) which may make a court case a bit like the x-factor.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 31, 2014, 04:49:51 PM
(the UK has started to do that now as well unfortunately)
But transparency and accountability.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on January 31, 2014, 08:38:02 PM
Amanda Knox a victim here. The poor girl was basically prosecuted for being a 20-year-old woman with an active sex and social life. The way she was portrayed in court and treated by the system is disgusting. "A sex game gone wrong" theory was actually just made up I guess? Also there was no new evidence in the case. The Italians ruined her life, she spent 4 years in prison and their still is a stigma attached to her name.

She wasn't sad enough, some thought. She couldn't weep for her friend while being bashed on an international stage for her ridiculous behavior of being 20 and in college and partying a bit.

She was told she had HIV and had to give the names of people she had sex with, but that was just a trick by prosecutors. Heh nice.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on January 31, 2014, 09:51:43 PM
In Murica we operate by the idea that you can only be tried for a law once, and that's how it should be.
And if the judiciary makes a mistake, or new evidence comes into light, we should just go "You may have gotten away this time, but we'll get you yet!". 10/10 best system let's implement immediately.

Yes, that is exactly how it should work. Because in America we are innocent until proven guilty, and "if at first you don't succeed, try try again" is kind of a dumb way to go about things when you're talking about people's lives. If you are proven not guilty you shouldn't spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder. That's idiotic. I'd rather a few guilty people get away than a few innocent people be jailed unjustly.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 31, 2014, 10:10:39 PM
Yes, that is exactly how it should work.
That will require some backup.

Because in America we are innocent until proven guilty
Yeah, that's how it works here too.

and "if at first you don't succeed, try try again" is kind of a dumb way to go about things when you're talking about people's lives.
It's a good thing that's prohibited by EU regulations, then.

If you are proven not guilty you shouldn't spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder.
I certainly agree. That's exactly how we do it. It seems to me that the problem here is that the vocal American legal experts of this forum never bothered to read the European Convention on Human Rights and assumed that just because extraordinary cases exist, the rules are completely different for us than they are for you.

That's idiotic. I'd rather a few guilty people get away than a few innocent people be jailed unjustly.
But the European system is better at that. If this is your objective, you should strive to understand other Western legal systems and adopt the good things out of them. Currently, the American judiciary is the laughing stock of the West, what with your ability to just make up a crime when you want to jail someone. Granted, the UK, Australia, Canada, and other Anglosphee countries are guilty of that to some extent, too, but your case is the most extreme. In fact, the very priority of the American system seems to be to put everyone that even looks guilty in jail (or to declare war on them because they're TRRRRRISTS).
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on January 31, 2014, 10:18:18 PM
Isn't it true in all nations that either side can appeal to a higher Court if they lose in one of the lower?

And isn't this just an example of that?

Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: markjo on February 01, 2014, 11:04:23 PM
Isn't it true in all nations that either side can appeal to a higher Court if they lose in one of the lower?
You appeal guilty verdicts, not innocent verdicts.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on February 02, 2014, 12:39:08 AM
Isn't it true in all nations that either side can appeal to a higher Court if they lose in one of the lower?
You appeal guilty verdicts, not innocent verdicts.
Well YOU do sure, but can't the prosecution appeal to a higher court?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 02, 2014, 12:41:20 AM
As for the death penalty, it has its place. Some people simply deserve death for their crimes. It's not a question of prevention or cost-effectiveness so much as it is having an ultimate penalty, and simply justice.

As far as I'm aware, there is no absolute way of establishing guilt. In terms of penalties, you don't get much more absolute than death.

If you are proven not guilty you shouldn't spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder. That's idiotic. I'd rather a few guilty people get away than a few innocent people be jailed unjustly.

What about those executed unjustly?

If someone walks into a school with a gun and shoots a bunch of kids and is seen on 20 cameras and is arrested at the scene of the crime holding the gun, I fail to see why we should be worrying that he might be innocent. That's the kind of scenario I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on February 02, 2014, 12:42:48 AM

If someone walks into a school with a gun and shoots a bunch of kids and is seen on 20 cameras and is arrested at the scene of the crime holding the gun, I fail to see why we should be worrying that he might be innocent. That's the kind of scenario I'm talking about.
That's a pretty rare scenario.

I have no evidence But I'd hazard a guess it would make up less than 1% of public executions.

call it less than 5% to be safe.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 02, 2014, 12:52:34 AM

If someone walks into a school with a gun and shoots a bunch of kids and is seen on 20 cameras and is arrested at the scene of the crime holding the gun, I fail to see why we should be worrying that he might be innocent. That's the kind of scenario I'm talking about.
That's a pretty rare scenario.

I have no evidence But I'd hazard a guess it would make up less than 1% of public executions.

call it less than 5% to be safe.

At no point did I claim the American justice system's handling of the death penalty was the right way to do it. I just said that complete abolishment of it is dumb. In certain cases of rape, murder, and human trafficking death is an appropriate punishment.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on February 02, 2014, 01:03:38 AM

At no point did I claim the American justice system's handling of the death penalty was the right way to do it. I just said that complete abolishment of it is dumb. In certain cases of rape, murder, and human trafficking death is an appropriate punishment.
I disagree but I respect your opinion.

My personal feeling is that the death penalty is not justice but revenge. The stats in america would suggest it's not even particularly cost effective.

The funny thing is that if a criminal kills themselves there's usually an immediate outcry about how they escaped justice, somewhat contradictory.

There's also the aspect that for the religious among us if you kill someone you deny them the possibility of redemption.

That said I'm not religious and although my personal preference is for a proper LIFE imprisonment as oppose to the death penalty I have no great issue with it as long as people know the consequences beforehand. Well, no issues aside from the miscarriages of justice possibilities.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DuckDodgers on February 02, 2014, 02:05:34 AM
The death penalty costs quite a bit due to people sentenced to death being on death row for 20-30 years and going through appeal after appeal on their sentence.  We recently had a case in my area where the person who was sentenced to be executed was on death row since '97 and had gone through so many appeals that the judge actually refused to allow him more.  He also didn't want more appeals to be filed but his family decided to keep filing appeals, but he wanted to just let his sentence go through and stop fighting.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 02, 2014, 02:14:15 AM

At no point did I claim the American justice system's handling of the death penalty was the right way to do it. I just said that complete abolishment of it is dumb. In certain cases of rape, murder, and human trafficking death is an appropriate punishment.
I disagree but I respect your opinion.

My personal feeling is that the death penalty is not justice but revenge. The stats in america would suggest it's not even particularly cost effective.

The funny thing is that if a criminal kills themselves there's usually an immediate outcry about how they escaped justice, somewhat contradictory.

There's also the aspect that for the religious among us if you kill someone you deny them the possibility of redemption.

That said I'm not religious and although my personal preference is for a proper LIFE imprisonment as oppose to the death penalty I have no great issue with it as long as people know the consequences beforehand. Well, no issues aside from the miscarriages of justice possibilities.

Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases? Also, since we're talking about incredibly violent people here it protects people from them permanently. Even if they're just in jail, their fellow prisoners deserve protection from the truly crazy people.

And as Duck said, it's only so expensive because of appeals. If we only executed the people who were not in any way at risk of being innocent, the system could be designed such that this was not a problem.

I read somewhere that mortality rates are higher among low level gang members than they are among death row inmates in America. That in itself speaks volumes about how broken the system is.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 02, 2014, 03:16:04 AM
Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases?
In a justice system, yes.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 02, 2014, 03:22:14 AM
Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases?
In a justice system, yes.

Why? That's a pretty broad generalization.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 02, 2014, 03:26:48 AM
Why? That's a pretty broad generalization.
Because justice systems are designed to exact justice, not revenge.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 02, 2014, 03:48:57 AM
Why? That's a pretty broad generalization.
Because justice systems are designed to exact justice, not revenge.

Don't give me truisms, I'm asking for actual logic.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Crudblud on February 02, 2014, 05:36:08 AM
In certain cases of rape, murder, and human trafficking death is an appropriate punishment.

Punishment is a behavioural alteration technique that relies on the target's awareness of the fact they are being punished in order to possibly succeed. Dead people are not aware of much of anything, let alone capable of repenting for a crime, so to execute a criminal as punishment is to defeat the purpose of punishment.

Has this already been brought up? Probably, but I'm lazy.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on February 02, 2014, 05:52:53 AM
Quibbling over whether or not something is "revenge" is a silly argument.  Revenge (or retribution, or societal vengeance, or whatever you want to call it) is a major element of every criminal justice system in the world, including those that don't have the death penalty.  You can still criticize that element of criminal justice, of course, but it makes no sense to single out the death penalty.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 02, 2014, 06:48:59 AM
Don't give me truisms, I'm asking for actual logic.
You're asking for logic to dispute your claim that the justice system should do something else than what it was designed to do. The fact that it can be dismissed with a truism is a problem with your argument, not my response to it. If you'd like to discuss something where logic is involved, make an argument that doesn't disprove itself.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on February 02, 2014, 07:36:32 AM
But also, Amanda Knox is innocent super clearly.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on February 02, 2014, 10:38:56 AM

Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases? Also, since we're talking about incredibly violent people here it protects people from them permanently. Even if they're just in jail, their fellow prisoners deserve protection from the truly crazy people.

It's inconsistent. That's why I'm also against giving the victim a say in sentencing (a proposal that gets mooted from time to time). I don't believe a sentence should be mitigated by how benevolent your victim was nor do I believe that Justice should be a vehicle for revenge. I believe the main purpose of the justice system is or at least should be deterrent (at the very least it should deter reoffending)

And as Duck said, it's only so expensive because of appeals. If we only executed the people who were not in any way at risk of being innocent, the system could be designed such that this was not a problem.
It still makes me question the aspect of it where people see a suicide as escaping punishment but an execution as being it.

I read somewhere that mortality rates are higher among low level gang members than they are among death row inmates in America. That in itself speaks volumes about how broken the system is.

I don't think it's possible to fix the system fully. I also don't think it's necessary. It certainly needs adjustment but there is no perfect system on an individual level, you can only work towards a good system on a national level and that's one that best deters offending and re-offending and Americas record doesn't show that it does this currently.

Quibbling over whether or not something is "revenge" is a silly argument.  Revenge (or retribution, or societal vengeance, or whatever you want to call it) is a major element of every criminal justice system in the world, including those that don't have the death penalty.  You can still criticize that element of criminal justice, of course, but it makes no sense to single out the death penalty.
I disagree. I would characterize those aspects of it as deterrent.

I would rate the effectiveness of any justice system by the level of crimes in a country, the less crimes per head the more effective the system.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Rama Set on February 02, 2014, 12:32:22 PM
But also, Amanda Knox is innocent super clearly.

Did you read a transcript of the case or are you basing your opinion off of a Wikipedia article?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: markjo on February 02, 2014, 04:17:15 PM
Isn't it true in all nations that either side can appeal to a higher Court if they lose in one of the lower?
You appeal guilty verdicts, not innocent verdicts.
Well YOU do sure, but can't the prosecution appeal to a higher court?
Not if your legal system prohibits double jeopardy.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on February 02, 2014, 04:56:24 PM
Quibbling over whether or not something is "revenge" is a silly argument.  Revenge (or retribution, or societal vengeance, or whatever you want to call it) is a major element of every criminal justice system in the world, including those that don't have the death penalty.  You can still criticize that element of criminal justice, of course, but it makes no sense to single out the death penalty.
I disagree. I would characterize those aspects of it as deterrent.

That wasn't an opinion.  You are objectively wrong if you think that the only thought that goes into putting a criminal in prison is deterrence.  Punishment is and always has been a big part of it.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 02, 2014, 05:21:12 PM
Quibbling over whether or not something is "revenge" is a silly argument.  Revenge (or retribution, or societal vengeance, or whatever you want to call it) is a major element of every criminal justice system in the world, including those that don't have the death penalty.  You can still criticize that element of criminal justice, of course, but it makes no sense to single out the death penalty.

This is essentially my position. I prefer the term "paying the debt to society".

I'm going to ignore Pizaa's rebuttals until he gives something of substance. His empty rhetoric doesn't make for much of a debate.


Yeah. But is revenge really such a bad thing in all cases? Also, since we're talking about incredibly violent people here it protects people from them permanently. Even if they're just in jail, their fellow prisoners deserve protection from the truly crazy people.

It's inconsistent. That's why I'm also against giving the victim a say in sentencing (a proposal that gets mooted from time to time). I don't believe a sentence should be mitigated by how benevolent your victim was nor do I believe that Justice should be a vehicle for revenge. I believe the main purpose of the justice system is or at least should be deterrent (at the very least it should deter reoffending)

No, of course. As I said, I'm not talking about the kind of case that currently gives the death penalty is America. I'm talking about situations where, for example, a person has been deeply involved with human trafficking for years and was caught red handed. Someone who made their living off of selling children off to be sex slaves. You can't rehabilitate such a person, and their debt to society is nigh on infinite. So we have two options. Either we give life in prison or we kill them. The right of such a person to live is frankly not a significant factor in my opinion, considering the crime. So it comes down to utilitarianism, and life in prison is expensive.

Quote
And as Duck said, it's only so expensive because of appeals. If we only executed the people who were not in any way at risk of being innocent, the system could be designed such that this was not a problem.
It still makes me question the aspect of it where people see a suicide as escaping punishment but an execution as being it.

I think that's more influenced by people wanting to be outraged than anything else. I've always been rather offended by people who say things like that, suicide having been a major part of my life. Suicide isn't the easy way out. People just like to be angry.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Rama Set on February 02, 2014, 07:29:18 PM
Does anyone here support rehabilitative models of criminal justice?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on February 02, 2014, 07:36:01 PM
Does anyone here support rehabilitative models of criminal justice?
In theory.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Rama Set on February 02, 2014, 07:39:25 PM
Does anyone here support rehabilitative models of criminal justice?
In theory.

What practical issues don't you support?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on February 02, 2014, 08:24:09 PM
Does anyone here support rehabilitative models of criminal justice?
In theory.

What practical issues don't you support?

the difficulty of determining if someone is actually rehabilitated.

Look at Jon Venables, that's not an example of rehabilitation working.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 02, 2014, 09:23:59 PM
Does anyone here support rehabilitative models of criminal justice?

Absolutely. I support such models 100%. The criminal themself is irrelevant, in my opinion. What matters is that society is effected most minimally by crime, particularly violent crime.

However, the position that the criminal is irrelevant does lead to situations where the death penalty is appropriate, as mentioned previously.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 02, 2014, 09:31:17 PM
Absolutely. I support such models 100%. The criminal themself is irrelevant, in my opinion.
These two sentences directly contradict one another. You cannot "support 100%" a model that focuses all its attention on the criminal and simultaneously claim that the criminal is irrelevant. Like with your previous claims, the problem here is lack of consistency. You are welcome to dislike it all you want, but self-contradictory claims do not take a sophisticated debate to dispute.

Does anyone here support rehabilitative models of criminal justice?
Sure. The human mind can be shaped in essentially any way, although with obviously varying results. Generally speaking, it's always worth a try.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on February 02, 2014, 11:53:15 PM
Does anyone here support rehabilitative models of criminal justice?

I do, and I think being punished is part of that rehabilitation.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 03, 2014, 04:43:22 AM
Absolutely. I support such models 100%. The criminal themself is irrelevant, in my opinion.
These two sentences directly contradict one another. You cannot "support 100%" a model that focuses all its attention on the criminal and simultaneously claim that the criminal is irrelevant. Like with your previous claims, the problem here is lack of consistency. You are welcome to dislike it all you want, but self-contradictory claims do not take a sophisticated debate to dispute.

They are not in any way contradictory. What matters is what is best for society. The criminal is irrelevant. If throwing them all in a penal colony in Siberia was determined to be the best for society, I'd be all for that. However, as far as we can tell rehabilitative models are the best for society as a whole, so that's what we should do.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on February 03, 2014, 07:16:18 AM
However, as far as we can tell rehabilitative models are the best for society as a whole, so that's what we should do.
Another contradiction. You say rehabilitative models are the best for society, and yet you firmly stand behind the American system. I'm starting to think you're trying to waste our time here.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on February 03, 2014, 08:35:27 PM
I'm also curious why the guy who actually killed her got a lighter sentence
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on February 03, 2014, 09:15:15 PM
He told them what they wanted to hear, so they cut his sentence.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on February 03, 2014, 09:26:44 PM
Kill a woman, implicate a cute American girl cause why not, get sentenced to less than the innocent cute American girl. Gg Italy
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DuckDodgers on February 03, 2014, 10:13:30 PM
I read that one of the judges who overturned her innocent verdict is going to be investigated connected to that overturning.  I'll try to find the link to the article when I get home in a few hours.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: EnigmaZV on February 03, 2014, 10:16:39 PM
No, of course. As I said, I'm not talking about the kind of case that currently gives the death penalty is America. I'm talking about situations where, for example, a person has been deeply involved with human trafficking for years and was caught red handed. Someone who made their living off of selling children off to be sex slaves. You can't rehabilitate such a person, and their debt to society is nigh on infinite. So we have two options. Either we give life in prison or we kill them. The right of such a person to live is frankly not a significant factor in my opinion, considering the crime. So it comes down to utilitarianism, and life in prison is expensive.

Since death for this person is almost a certainty, I guess the rational response to being caught is to leave no witnesses. That doesn't sound like a system I would endorse.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 03, 2014, 10:30:35 PM
However, as far as we can tell rehabilitative models are the best for society as a whole, so that's what we should do.
Another contradiction. You say rehabilitative models are the best for society, and yet you firmly stand behind the American system. I'm starting to think you're trying to waste our time here.

I do? When did I say I stood behind the American system? I support our double jeopardy laws, but that's not what we're discussing right now.

No, of course. As I said, I'm not talking about the kind of case that currently gives the death penalty is America. I'm talking about situations where, for example, a person has been deeply involved with human trafficking for years and was caught red handed. Someone who made their living off of selling children off to be sex slaves. You can't rehabilitate such a person, and their debt to society is nigh on infinite. So we have two options. Either we give life in prison or we kill them. The right of such a person to live is frankly not a significant factor in my opinion, considering the crime. So it comes down to utilitarianism, and life in prison is expensive.

Since death for this person is almost a certainty, I guess the rational response to being caught is to leave no witnesses. That doesn't sound like a system I would endorse.

I suppose that's a valid concern. Kind of. I'm not really sure what to think of it, honestly.

EDIT: what Saddam said. The death penalty hasn't been shown to actually influence criminal's behavior in any way.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on February 03, 2014, 10:42:27 PM
No, of course. As I said, I'm not talking about the kind of case that currently gives the death penalty is America. I'm talking about situations where, for example, a person has been deeply involved with human trafficking for years and was caught red handed. Someone who made their living off of selling children off to be sex slaves. You can't rehabilitate such a person, and their debt to society is nigh on infinite. So we have two options. Either we give life in prison or we kill them. The right of such a person to live is frankly not a significant factor in my opinion, considering the crime. So it comes down to utilitarianism, and life in prison is expensive.

Since death for this person is almost a certainty, I guess the rational response to being caught is to leave no witnesses. That doesn't sound like a system I would endorse.

If the criminal has no issue with killing, then the "rational response" would be to leave no witnesses even if they were only facing life in prison.  The death penalty does not give criminals pause.  It never has, and it never will.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DuckDodgers on February 04, 2014, 12:26:40 AM
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/24622850/italian-justice-ministry-investigating-knox-judge

It isn't the original source of the story about the Italian judge, but it has the information.  It's an investigation into comments he made to reporters following the verdict reading and (as commented by the article)"The newspapers quoted Florence judge Alessandro Nencini as saying, among other things, that Sollecito's decision not to testify on the witness stand deprived the defendant of a voice."
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on February 04, 2014, 07:58:58 AM
EDIT: what Saddam said. The death penalty hasn't been shown to actually influence criminal's behavior in any way.

from what I remember it HAS been shown to influence a juries behaviour, in states where there's a mandatory death sentence for certain crimes juries are less likely to convict for those crimes.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 04, 2014, 02:53:58 PM
EDIT: what Saddam said. The death penalty hasn't been shown to actually influence criminal's behavior in any way.

from what I remember it HAS been shown to influence a juries behaviour, in states where there's a mandatory death sentence for certain crimes juries are less likely to convict for those crimes.

I suspect that in the type of situation I'm talking about, this wouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: spank86 on February 04, 2014, 04:36:45 PM
EDIT: what Saddam said. The death penalty hasn't been shown to actually influence criminal's behavior in any way.

from what I remember it HAS been shown to influence a juries behaviour, in states where there's a mandatory death sentence for certain crimes juries are less likely to convict for those crimes.

I suspect that in the type of situation I'm talking about, this wouldn't be a problem.

What would you do if you believed all life is sacred and any killing is wrong (and that two wrongs don't make a right).

Let the guy go free or be directly responsible for his execution...

It's an issue, although I'm not sure if there's an option to get out of jury duty in those states if you don't feel you could ever support the death penalty.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Alchemist21 on February 04, 2014, 04:46:12 PM
EDIT: what Saddam said. The death penalty hasn't been shown to actually influence criminal's behavior in any way.

from what I remember it HAS been shown to influence a juries behaviour, in states where there's a mandatory death sentence for certain crimes juries are less likely to convict for those crimes.

I suspect that in the type of situation I'm talking about, this wouldn't be a problem.

What would you do if you believed all life is sacred and any killing is wrong (and that two wrongs don't make a right).

Let the guy go free or be directly responsible for his execution...

It's an issue, although I'm not sure if there's an option to get out of jury duty in those states if you don't feel you could ever support the death penalty.

I'm sure they would release you from jury duty if that were the case.  Even if they don't, you can still vote not guilty and force a hung jury so they have to get new jurors (seems like perverting the legal system I know, but it is a last resort option).
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on February 04, 2014, 05:43:26 PM
If you're morally opposed to the death penalty, all you have to do is let them know during the jury selection process and they'll excuse you.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on February 04, 2014, 07:18:18 PM
EDIT: what Saddam said. The death penalty hasn't been shown to actually influence criminal's behavior in any way.

from what I remember it HAS been shown to influence a juries behaviour, in states where there's a mandatory death sentence for certain crimes juries are less likely to convict for those crimes.

I suspect that in the type of situation I'm talking about, this wouldn't be a problem.

What would you do if you believed all life is sacred and any killing is wrong (and that two wrongs don't make a right).

Let the guy go free or be directly responsible for his execution...

It's an issue, although I'm not sure if there's an option to get out of jury duty in those states if you don't feel you could ever support the death penalty.

You can. It's one of the first questions they ask you. If you aren't comfortable sentencing someone to death it's a free ticket out of jury duty.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on March 04, 2014, 06:10:29 PM
Nothing has happened with the case yet!  Suspense!  Mystery!  Drama!
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on March 04, 2014, 07:57:59 PM
Is she in prison yet?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Sean on March 04, 2014, 08:07:38 PM
She will not be in prison again.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on March 04, 2014, 08:54:48 PM
She will not be in prison again.

Why, she's a convicted killer?
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 04, 2014, 09:47:32 PM
Why, she's a convicted killer?
Because she's 600% innocent and America won't let Mussolini win again.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on March 04, 2014, 10:54:05 PM
A court of law doesn't seem to agree with you.

Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Ghost of V on March 10, 2014, 08:01:27 PM
Anyone else have a weird attraction to Amanda Knox? Guilty or not.  :o
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Thork on March 10, 2014, 08:07:39 PM
Anyone else have a weird attraction to Amanda Knox? Guilty or not.  :o
Way ahead of you.
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=764.msg16903#msg16903

Only for me, her being guilty is the turn on. I lost interest when she got off.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Ghost of V on March 10, 2014, 08:15:38 PM
Anyone else have a weird attraction to Amanda Knox? Guilty or not.  :o
Way ahead of you.
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=764.msg16903#msg16903

Only for me, her being guilty is the turn on. I lost interest when she got off.

I prefer her with short hair, and preferably guilty, of course.

There's just something about being accused of weird sex murder that makes her even more appealing.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on March 10, 2014, 11:21:24 PM
Fucking weirdos.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Pete Svarrior on March 11, 2014, 12:39:18 AM
A court of law doesn't seem to agree with you.
I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the sarcasm in my post.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on March 20, 2014, 04:17:19 AM
Here, have a Daily Fail article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2582827/Amanda-Knox-rides-bike-local-Goodwill-store-prepares-appeal-conviction-murder-Meredith-Kercher.html
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on March 20, 2014, 06:12:47 AM
She looks very masculine.



Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on April 03, 2014, 02:08:52 AM
http://www.examiner.com/article/amanda-knox-coroner-meredith-kercher-unlawfully-killed-coroner-rules

Who would have guessed?  It turns out that Meredith Kercher was in fact unlawfully killed!

This changes everything!
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Ghost of V on April 04, 2014, 05:00:50 PM
http://www.examiner.com/article/amanda-knox-coroner-meredith-kercher-unlawfully-killed-coroner-rules

Who would have guessed?  It turns out that Meredith Kercher was in fact unlawfully killed!

This changes everything!

Uhhh. Didn't we already know this information? How is this news? ???
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on March 28, 2015, 05:35:24 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/27/italian-high-court-overturns-amanda-knox-murder-conviction/

Justice has prevailed!
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Tau on March 28, 2015, 05:41:03 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/27/italian-high-court-overturns-amanda-knox-murder-conviction/

Justice has prevailed!

Unless, of course, Italy decides to charge her yet again. Since they can do that there.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Rama Set on March 28, 2015, 06:24:30 PM
Hopefully the State department flexes the bicep with the "I Love Mom" tato if Amanda Knox is recharged.
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Thork on March 28, 2015, 09:30:15 PM
I've gone off her again. :(
Title: Re: Amanda Knox guilty again.
Post by: Ghost of V on March 28, 2015, 09:30:58 PM
I've gone off her again. :(

I haven't.