Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2014, 01:56:06 PM »
Wow, Supertails! If you don't ask questions that would cross a Rabbi's eyes! Denial of God would be a bit of a difficulty, but if your failure to believe in Him comes from true lack of knowledge rather than malicious intent, there's that. The whole gay-straight thing is, IMHO, overrated. For a Jew, there are 613 Commandments of the Law, of which perhaps 5 or 6 deal w/ the gay issue. So, my point is, I personally feel that while one should strive to obey God in all things, disobeying Him in terms of who you sleep w/ is no less or greater an offence than disobeying Him any other way. & frankly, some Biblical scholars question precisely what God was forbidding in Leviticus. Was it Jewish men being w/ other men? In that case, you're good. Was it straight men being w/ other men? You're still ok. Even if it WAS all men, lets keep it in perspective. If you marry a woman & make your lives miserable, how pleasing will that be to God? My advice: whatever God  meant in Leviticus, if you can't be happy w/ a girl, & make

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2014, 02:01:29 PM »
her happy, then don't get married! Stay celibate if possible. But if that is not possible, then get w/ one, & be monogamous. God is merciful to all who call upon him. It is illogical to make the gay thing a bigger deal than it is. There are far more horrible things one can do than sharing intimacy w/ another consenting adult.

Re: Heaven
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2014, 02:13:10 PM »
As I've always been taught to understand it, it means chosen to service, to bring ethical monotheism to the world.

That's cool. Since God is making all the decisions it follows that noone can choose to be Jewish. And no Jew can choose to be not Jewish.

And if as a non Jew, a person gets to go to heaven anyway, because wereallequalamirite, then why bother? Judaism sounds like a lot of effort to me.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2014, 02:18:57 PM »
Well, I know some Jews by Choice. Its unusual, but not unheard of. & Judaism is an effort, but one that is very much worth it.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2014, 02:19:38 PM »
Do the commandments forbid a person from being anything but heterosexual, or do they forbid the act of having sex with someone who isn't a person of the opposite sex?
The Mastery.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2014, 02:27:51 PM »
Well, Beardo, they obviously can't forbid you from being a thing intrinsic to your biology. Nor are they worded to. Being gay is not a choice, last I heard. The most the commandments can do is forbid sex w/ certain people. As to whom, read my posts to Supertails above.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 02:30:37 PM by Yaakov ben Avraham »

Re: Heaven
« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2014, 04:49:46 PM »
Well, I know some Jews by Choice.

And they are seen by God as exactly the same as Jews that are "chosen"?

Its unusual, but not unheard of. & Judaism is an effort, but one that is very much worth it.

Doesn't sound like it. The reward is exactly the same.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2014, 05:01:13 PM »
Well, Blanko, so far as I know, Judaism teaches that a non-Jew is obligated to be a just & moral person, & is just as eligible for Paradise as any Jew. & no, you will not be bound to Jewish law now or then, but only the laws of Noah. Namely, don't murder. Don't steal. Don't blaspheme. Don't commit sexual immorality. Don't tear the limb of a living animal for food. Establish courts of justice in your land. & there is one more that I never recall, but it is also common sense derived. So really, we're more inclusive than you think. You certainly don't have to be a Jew to please God & attain blessings!

Genuinely curious! Does this mean that, as someone who is atheist, I would still go to Paradise since I've "followed" those laws (see: haven't been a terrible person, but less out of fear and more out of just not wanting to be a terrible person)?

Unless, of course, not being heterosexual counts as "sexual immorality".

I think it does. But don't worry, shaving and getting tattoos are just as bad. At this point, the LORD is gonna have to loosen his standards a bit if he wants to continue admitting people to his magical sky party.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline spank86

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2014, 05:03:35 PM »
Just think, what will you do in a trillion years when you've seen and done everything in creation?

add body chocolate, and do it again.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #49 on: January 22, 2014, 05:08:43 PM »
Yes, Jews by Choice are the same as Jews by Birth to God. Tatoos are strongly discouraged but not forbidden. Else what would happen to camp survivors w/ numbers on their arms. King David's mother Ruth is taken to have been a convert.

Re: Heaven
« Reply #50 on: January 22, 2014, 05:46:47 PM »
Yes, Jews by Choice are the same as Jews by Birth to God.

So in fact God doesn't make the choice, humans do. Or is there some debate on the matter? And what happens if you leave Judaism? Does God still think you're a Jew?

Tatoos are strongly discouraged but not forbidden.

I don't think Leviticus speaks of strong discouragement. I think it says "Do Not". There's no mention of God distinguishing between tattoos of pagans (who must die) and tattoos of hardworking seafaring folk who like their mum.

Alternatively. What's the point in telling someone not to do something, and then letting them get away, punishment free, for having done it? Does this mean I can turn my daughter to prostitution? She won't have that fine ass forever.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2014, 05:56:47 PM »
One who leaves Judaism is re: as an a apostate, which is not a good thing. One who becomes a Jew is re: as having been born w/ a Jewish soul. Mind you, these are human judgements. As to what the Deity thinks, we can't be certain. As to tatoos, I suspect, although I'm not sure, that the issue came up because of the Holocaust. I'd have to look into it further.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2014, 06:04:32 PM »
I'm starting to think Heaven is an all you can eat buffet: for God.  When souls "join" with him it actually means he eats them.

Yummy!
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Heaven
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2014, 06:08:24 PM »
As to what the Deity thinks, we can't be certain.

If only religion stopped here.

Offline spank86

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2014, 08:53:40 AM »
One who leaves Judaism is re: as an a apostate, which is not a good thing. One who becomes a Jew is re: as having been born w/ a Jewish soul. Mind you, these are human judgements. As to what the Deity thinks, we can't be certain. As to tatoos, I suspect, although I'm not sure, that the issue came up because of the Holocaust. I'd have to look into it further.

something tells me there's a difference between choosing to get an tattoo and having someone forcibly tattoo you, otherwise you'd got to hell for getting a scar from a dog bite.

It does beg the question of why a little butterfly tattoo is evil but it's ok to lop a bit off your knob.

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Offline beardo

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2014, 09:09:47 AM »
I understand the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. How do Jews deal with the situation?
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Re: Heaven
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2014, 10:23:04 AM »
I understand the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. How do Jews deal with the situation?

Ostracism. Like most other religions. I think this might be a social construct though. Some hold a funeral type ritual for the apostate.

Really though Jews should be murdering the person leaving. See Deuteronomy 13. If you don't murder them, then you too should be murdered. So in that light "GTFO" sounds positively liberal.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2014, 11:23:51 AM »
It depends on how liberal the Jewish movement. Reform would say, 'Hey, good luck out there.' The Heredim would completely shun, which is pretty brutal when you live in a place that is 98% Jewish.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Heaven
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2014, 10:59:48 PM »
I really hate to say it but I've seen a lot of ... unpleasant jewish shoppers.  For the most part they'll do things like buy an item then return it a few days later.  Sometimes used.  (the store they do this to allows it).  Not only that but when they buy things, they buy a TON of things.  Then return most, if not all of it.
This is a jewish community: Kiryas Joel.

As someone who knows plenty about jews, is this sort of behavior normal?  And if so, why do they do this?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Heaven
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2014, 11:27:48 PM »
This thread is about Heaven. Please post questions in "Ask a Jew...Anything!"