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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Thork on January 14, 2014, 11:20:01 PM

Title: Heaven
Post by: Thork on January 14, 2014, 11:20:01 PM
Heaven (or hell) are central to many religions. Kind of a reward or punishment for being a good/bad follower.

The thing I find most odd about it, is that you spend say 70 years trying to win a spot in heaven, and then the rest of eternity paying for how you lived your life.

Surely a better system would be to let you live in heaven, and then send you to earth if you misbehave until you learn how to live in heaven. It seems kinda backwards that you'd do it the other way around. Surely a 70 year sentence on earth should be punishment for groping an angel or being sick in Mohammad's beard?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: jroa on January 15, 2014, 12:32:30 AM
I think it is human nature to believe that, no matter how shitty things are now, there is still hope because it will be much better when you die. 

Also, perhaps we should bring back the pay-for-absolution system. 
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Lord Dave on January 15, 2014, 01:05:03 AM
Heaven (or hell) are central to many religions. Kind of a reward or punishment for being a good/bad follower.

The thing I find most odd about it, is that you spend say 70 years trying to win a spot in heaven, and then the rest of eternity paying for how you lived your life.

Surely a better system would be to let you live in heaven, and then send you to earth if you misbehave until you learn how to live in heaven. It seems kinda backwards that you'd do it the other way around. Surely a 70 year sentence on earth should be punishment for groping an angel or being sick in Mohammad's beard?
Pretty sure you just described reincarnation.

Also, Heaven is the actual Hell.
Why?
Boredom.

Just think, what will you do in a trillion years when you've seen and done everything in creation?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Rushy on January 15, 2014, 01:26:13 AM
Valhalla, now that's a place to go after death. A place where you just drink and fight until the apocalypse comes, and then you fight it. You fight the fucking apocalypse. You know you won't win, but you fight it anyway because you and your friends are all the top badasses in the universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5w262XvCU

Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 15, 2014, 09:00:41 AM
Even if Heaven exists, nobody who has ever lived on Earth will ever see it. In order to make an eternity bearable, knowing that billions of your  fellow humans (Including loved ones) are being tortured in Hell (Or else simply not with you,) whilst being physically unable to sin would require such an intense re-write of most people's minds that it wouldn't be right to describe the beings going to Heaven as the same beings who lived on Earth.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Lord Dave on January 15, 2014, 11:39:06 AM
Even if Heaven exists, nobody who has ever lived on Earth will ever see it. In order to make an eternity bearable, knowing that billions of your  fellow humans (Including loved ones) are being tortured in Hell (Or else simply not with you,) whilst being physically unable to sin would require such an intense re-write of most people's minds that it wouldn't be right to describe the beings going to Heaven as the same beings who lived on Earth.
Not really.
Just stick a metaphorical pin in the pleasure center of the soul brain.  You'll be too happy to care about anyone else.  Which makes my boredom argument moot.


So you're either totally bliss or totally bored.  Fun right?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 15, 2014, 01:28:31 PM
Even if Heaven exists, nobody who has ever lived on Earth will ever see it. In order to make an eternity bearable, knowing that billions of your  fellow humans (Including loved ones) are being tortured in Hell (Or else simply not with you,) whilst being physically unable to sin would require such an intense re-write of most people's minds that it wouldn't be right to describe the beings going to Heaven as the same beings who lived on Earth.
Not really.
Just stick a metaphorical pin in the pleasure center of the soul brain.  You'll be too happy to care about anyone else.  Which makes my boredom argument moot.


So you're either totally bliss or totally bored.  Fun right?

I am not just the good happy centres of my brain, I am the dark areas, the anger, the frustrations, the sadness, the unhappy memories, the bad experiences which have shaped who I am. If you lobotomise all those out of me then the being living in ignorant bliss is not 'me' in any meaningful sense.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Lord Dave on January 15, 2014, 03:43:55 PM
Even if Heaven exists, nobody who has ever lived on Earth will ever see it. In order to make an eternity bearable, knowing that billions of your  fellow humans (Including loved ones) are being tortured in Hell (Or else simply not with you,) whilst being physically unable to sin would require such an intense re-write of most people's minds that it wouldn't be right to describe the beings going to Heaven as the same beings who lived on Earth.
Not really.
Just stick a metaphorical pin in the pleasure center of the soul brain.  You'll be too happy to care about anyone else.  Which makes my boredom argument moot.


So you're either totally bliss or totally bored.  Fun right?

I am not just the good happy centres of my brain, I am the dark areas, the anger, the frustrations, the sadness, the unhappy memories, the bad experiences which have shaped who I am. If you lobotomise all those out of me then the being living in ignorant bliss is not 'me' in any meaningful sense.

True.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Rama Set on January 15, 2014, 04:04:56 PM
Even if Heaven exists, nobody who has ever lived on Earth will ever see it. In order to make an eternity bearable, knowing that billions of your  fellow humans (Including loved ones) are being tortured in Hell (Or else simply not with you,) whilst being physically unable to sin would require such an intense re-write of most people's minds that it wouldn't be right to describe the beings going to Heaven as the same beings who lived on Earth.
Not really.
Just stick a metaphorical pin in the pleasure center of the soul brain.  You'll be too happy to care about anyone else.  Which makes my boredom argument moot.


So you're either totally bliss or totally bored.  Fun right?

I am not just the good happy centres of my brain, I am the dark areas, the anger, the frustrations, the sadness, the unhappy memories, the bad experiences which have shaped who I am. If you lobotomise all those out of me then the being living in ignorant bliss is not 'me' in any meaningful sense.

If you are to believe in Heaven then you have to divorce these ego-driven notions of who you are from the equation.  Heaven obviously would not function as a place where all your Earthly desires are fulfilled and you are blissed out like on happy pills.  If you believe in Heaven you should expect you consciousness to be changed in such a way as to receive something heavenly.  In effect, your experience of existence would need to be transformed in such a way that you could not, on this plane, possibly fathom.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 15, 2014, 04:54:08 PM
Then in what meaningful sense am I 'me?'

|If I've been changed so much that I couldn't even athom itthen why should I look forward to Heaven or draead Hell?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 15, 2014, 05:25:08 PM
It wouldn't even make sense to change the self for Heaven or Hell.  Then the very concept of reward and punishment is lost.  You don't know nor understand why you are where you are (would be worse for someone in Hell for getting punished for unknown reasons). 

Chris makes a good point though. I'd rather be in Hell with someone I love than alone in Heaven.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 15, 2014, 05:49:49 PM
Chris makes a good point though. I'd rather be in Hell with someone I love than alone in Heaven.

Would you rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: DuckDodgers on January 15, 2014, 06:40:28 PM
I doubt that your self is merely your earthly desires.  Simply losing those desires doesn't necessarily mean you lose your identity.  Besides, you change yourself countless times throughout your life, what was important 5 years ago probably isn't so important now to you, why couldn't your spirit go through the same type of identity shift and still be you?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 15, 2014, 08:00:48 PM
Wait, you're telling me that in heaven they get rid of the sad parts of our existence and we're permanently happy and you're not okay with that? Orgasms are awesome; depression sucks. You can speak that down parts are essential to our lives, but if I could replace the shitty parts of my life with orgasms I would take that deal in a heartbeat.

Speaking purely in a hypothetical heaven that is. On this earth, a constant orgasm would get annoying after a while.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 15, 2014, 08:22:21 PM
Wait, you're telling me that in heaven they get rid of the sad parts of our existence and we're permanently happy and you're not okay with that? Orgasms are awesome; depression sucks. You can speak that down parts are essential to our lives, but if I could replace the shitty parts of my life with orgasms I would take that deal in a heartbeat.

Speaking purely in a hypothetical heaven that is. On this earth, a constant orgasm would get annoying after a while.

Think of the mess you'd have to clean up.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 15, 2014, 08:58:46 PM
Wait, you're telling me that in heaven they get rid of the sad parts of our existence and we're permanently happy and you're not okay with that? Orgasms are awesome; depression sucks. You can speak that down parts are essential to our lives, but if I could replace the shitty parts of my life with orgasms I would take that deal in a heartbeat.

Speaking purely in a hypothetical heaven that is. On this earth, a constant orgasm would get annoying after a while.

Think of the mess you'd have to clean up.
I can't, I'm too busy orgasming.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Alchemist21 on January 15, 2014, 09:08:13 PM
That escalated quickly.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Снупс on January 16, 2014, 02:45:52 AM
I'd be inclined to agree that heaven is one of those things we just can't wrap our minds around, speaking purely hypothetically, as if it existed. Obviously I don't even slightly believe in it, but yeah, I think it'd be pretty hard to argue that being constantly in a state of happiness and bliss would suck because...well...that goes against the prerequisites that were just set

That said, I do agree with Chris that it'd be taking a hell of a lot away from one's individuality. I wouldn't really be the same person if I wasn't the way I am.

Chris makes a good point though. I'd rather be in Hell with someone I love than alone in Heaven.

Would you rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints?

Well obviously; the sinners are much more fun.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 16, 2014, 10:06:33 AM
Wait, you're telling me that in heaven they get rid of the sad parts of our existence and we're permanently happy and you're not okay with that?

Yeah, because when I feel down, or angry, or frustrated, there are usually reasons for feeling that way. I feel sad because someone I love is lost to me, I feel angry because someone has wronged me, I feel frustrated because I want to get something done.

You could argue that in Heaven you simply have nothing to feel down about, but as we've said before, if loved ones aren't with you, you should feel sad (If I didn't I'd feel really guilty about insulting their memories. If I didn't feel guilty then I wouldn't be me.) . If you've got nothing to strive for and nothing to do, you should evenually feel bored.

I doubt that your self is merely your earthly desires.  Simply losing those desires doesn't necessarily mean you lose your identity.  Besides, you change yourself countless times throughout your life, what was important 5 years ago probably isn't so important now to you, why couldn't your spirit go through the same type of identity shift and still be you?

True, I'm a totally different person to how I was as a baby, but that change was a gradual shift to achieve continuity, not a sudden seismic shift from baby to fully-blown adult. If my future, heavenly, self was changed so much to not care about the suffering of others, the loss of loved ones, stymied of curiosity to prevent boredom and happily settled in what amounts to a permanant drug-fuelled fog then I don't want to go to Heaven because I don't like the person that I'll have become.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on January 16, 2014, 06:46:35 PM
If you believe the crap in the bible etc... there's more people in hell than there are in heaven.

Hell's winning.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 17, 2014, 01:30:17 AM
Yeah, because when I feel down, or angry, or frustrated, there are usually reasons for feeling that way. I feel sad because someone I love is lost to me, I feel angry because someone has wronged me, I feel frustrated because I want to get something done.

You could argue that in Heaven you simply have nothing to feel down about, but as we've said before, if loved ones aren't with you, you should feel sad (If I didn't I'd feel really guilty about insulting their memories. If I didn't feel guilty then I wouldn't be me.) . If you've got nothing to strive for and nothing to do, you should evenually feel bored.
I agree completely with you. I guess my only response is that you wouldn't care, because you're too busy being happy. Don't care; orgasming. Would I really be myself if I was constantly in ecstasy? No. Would I still be constantly in ecstasy? Yes. and that'd be super fun.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Crudblud on January 17, 2014, 04:13:20 AM
Disclaimer: I am tired and I have been drinking.

Say that in death the self gives up the body and upon being accepted into Heaven it is then stripped of all earthly things in a process of purification. All the things we carry with us in our mundane lives — knowledge, experience, memory, emotion and so on — we cannot take with us into Heaven because they are impurities of the self, but our impurities and imperfections are what make us human, so to be purified we must necessarily transcend our humanity and become something totally alien and incomprehensible. Chris could not know his loved ones were in Hell because not only would they no longer be his loved ones, he would not even be aware of their existence, he would have no memory or knowledge of love, he would not care that he knew nothing because he would not know what it is to know something or to care etc. Similarly, Franklin would not know that he was constantly orgasming or the joy of it, having no concept of pleasure, no physical senses as an incorporeal being and no memory of the five human senses or of the orgasm with which to simulate an impression of one, and he too would not care. Simply put, Heaven would be practically indistinguishable from absolute nothingness.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Rama Set on January 17, 2014, 02:24:38 PM
You cannot cherry pick philosophies. Christian dualism contends that it is our soul that makes us human; otherwise we would be indistinguishable from animals. So when your soul goes to heaven it is taking the essential humanity only.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Crudblud on January 17, 2014, 05:20:57 PM
You cannot cherry pick philosophies. Christian dualism contends that it is our soul that makes us human; otherwise we would be indistinguishable from animals. So when your soul goes to heaven it is taking the essential humanity only.
I'm not cherry picking anything. Furthermore the OP clearly states "many religions," not just Christianity (so far, you are the only person to explicitly mention it), so it seems reasonable to believe that "Heaven" and "Hell" are being used as a place-holder for the myriad concepts of afterlife around the world. If I've misinterpreted the OP, fair enough, but as it stands your rebuttal doesn't really have anything to do with what I said.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Rama Set on January 17, 2014, 08:07:42 PM
For every religion though you must use a metaphysical explanation consistent with that religion considering religions are mutually exclusive (i.e. they can't all be true), that's all I mean.  When you mentioned Heaven as a place of purity, I took it to be a Christian conception of heaven; if I was wrong then my rebuttal smells of buttal.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Crudblud on January 18, 2014, 11:12:19 AM
Well, Christianity does talk of an afterlife realm of purity or perfection, but I don't think that makes the idea exclusively Christian, anyone could hold it on its own, these are simply my musings on what such a place would actually be like according to my own ideas of purity and perfection. I have long held the belief that humanity is incompatible with perfection; when someone talks about a piece of music and calls it "perfect," for example, I always say that not only are human beings incapable of creating something perfect, they would also be incapable of comprehending or liking something that is perfect, whatever it may be, because "perfect" is entirely alien to us. Purity is similarly alien, and I think it is incongruous with our mundane lives, that if we are to ascend to a state of purity we must also shed everything that made us human and revert to a pre-birth state in which we are untouched by experience, emotion, sensation, knowledge and so on. The pure self is the undeveloped self, if you like, because it has no experiential data, it is an empty vessel capable of containing such data, but without the right input it remains empty. That is why I imagine such a place as Heaven to be indistinguishable from nothingness, because by being pure it has no allowance for anything we know here on this plane of existence, all of which is crucial to our understanding of the self and its relationship to its environment, but we would not experience this as loss because we would cease to experience anything, our memories of a time when the self and its surroundings were other than they are would be entirely lost, but we would also have no means of experiencing them as they are because there is none of that right input available.

Alternatively we could just say I was tired and drunk and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 12:59:10 AM
The OP talks of many religions. Judaism doesn't believe in eternal torment. The only Hell that exists is what people create. If you're a total asshole in life, even then your soul simply doesn't resurrect. We don't believe in Heaven as such, either. Olam Ha Ba (The World to Come) is thought of as Eden. We'll all live as Father Adam & Mother Eve did before the Fall. But ultimately, life after death is just another chapter. Our primary duty in life is to learn about God. That doesn't change just because we die. For the Jew, the Torah in force now stays in force then. So, what is all the fuss about? Of course, I can't speak for non-Jews.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Blanko on January 22, 2014, 01:04:51 AM
I like Judaism more than Christianity already. If only you guys were more inclusive than not at all.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 22, 2014, 01:15:14 AM
I had a conversation with a Jehovahs witness a while back.

"Look at this painting (http://gospelbondservant.com.s127328.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/lion_and_lamb-p.jpg)," she said. "Don't you think that looks like a wonderful sight?"
"What's this here?"
"That's a lion"
"And what's this here?"
"That's a lamb"
"Umm. What does the lion eat?"
"Flowers"
"If a lion on earth was told that he'd go to a place where he has to eat flowers for eternity, do you think he'd be happy?"
"Yes of course"
"I doubt it. Lion's love killing stuff. They've got big claws and teeth just so they can kill stuff. If I was a lion I'd want a heaven filled with lots of baby animals with broken legs."
"Well it is written that the lion shall lay down with the lamb"
"I know but it sounds like a bum deal for the lion. He can't be a lion anymore."
"But look at the painting. He looks happy."
Sighs. "Yes, he does.."

Actually I think it might have been this picture (http://www.centralprint.net/jwtalks/DC/1982ELF.jpg).
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 01:17:01 AM
Well, Blanko, so far as I know, Judaism teaches that a non-Jew is obligated to be a just & moral person, & is just as eligible for Paradise as any Jew. & no, you will not be bound to Jewish law now or then, but only the laws of Noah. Namely, don't murder. Don't steal. Don't blaspheme. Don't commit sexual immorality. Don't tear the limb of a living animal for food. Establish courts of justice in your land. & there is one more that I never recall, but it is also common sense derived. So really, we're more inclusive than you think. You certainly don't have to be a Jew to please God & attain blessings!
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 22, 2014, 01:20:56 AM
So Jews aren't Gods chosen people? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people)
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 01:26:20 AM
Yes, we are, but not in the way you're thinking. That has been a matter of intense Jewish thought for 4500 yrs. As I've always been taught to understand it, it means chosen to service, to bring ethical monotheism to the world. Just as the Kohanim are Priests to the Jewish People, so are the Jewish People a nation of Priests to mankind, if you get my rather imperfect analogy.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Rama Set on January 22, 2014, 05:55:40 AM
Yes, we are, but not in the way you're thinking. That has been a matter of intense Jewish thought for 4500 yrs. As I've always been taught to understand it, it means chosen to service, to bring ethical monotheism to the world. Just as the Kohanim are Priests to the Jewish People, so are the Jewish People a nation of Priests to mankind, if you get my rather imperfect analogy.

And to kill whomever is in the Holy Land amirite?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 06:08:31 AM
No. The Holy Land is to be ruled by Jews, yes. If strangers wish to dwell there, they may, under Jewish rule. Just as the US allows non-citizens to live here.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Thork on January 22, 2014, 08:46:51 AM
No. The Holy Land is to be ruled by Jews, yes.
Well if we are going by that

Quote from: Deuteronomy 28:49
The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand
Hurry up China! >:(
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 22, 2014, 09:29:00 AM
Funny, the local Catholic priests would have me believe that it's us who are The Chosen Nation™.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Lord Dave on January 22, 2014, 11:58:46 AM
The OP talks of many religions. Judaism doesn't believe in eternal torment. The only Hell that exists is what people create. If you're a total asshole in life, even then your soul simply doesn't resurrect. We don't believe in Heaven as such, either. Olam Ha Ba (The World to Come) is thought of as Eden. We'll all live as Father Adam & Mother Eve did before the Fall. But ultimately, life after death is just another chapter. Our primary duty in life is to learn about God. That doesn't change just because we die. For the Jew, the Torah in force now stays in force then. So, what is all the fuss about? Of course, I can't speak for non-Jews.
If there is no eternal punishment for Jews, then what's their moral motivation to follow God?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: beardo on January 22, 2014, 12:01:37 PM
They want to reach Eden. Olam Ha-Ba. The Afterlife.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 12:28:18 PM
Well, Beardo, that is it, for many. On the other hand, Judaism places little emphasis on what you believe, & more on what you do. We are a religion of deed rather than creed. For example, what I said about the Afterlife is true for most Jews, but not all. Some Jews do believe differently. Some Hasidic Jews even believe in Transmigration of souls. So, Jews aren't of a piece. Never forget the old saying: If you have 3 Jews in a room, you have 4 opinions.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Снупс on January 22, 2014, 12:57:15 PM
Well, Blanko, so far as I know, Judaism teaches that a non-Jew is obligated to be a just & moral person, & is just as eligible for Paradise as any Jew. & no, you will not be bound to Jewish law now or then, but only the laws of Noah. Namely, don't murder. Don't steal. Don't blaspheme. Don't commit sexual immorality. Don't tear the limb of a living animal for food. Establish courts of justice in your land. & there is one more that I never recall, but it is also common sense derived. So really, we're more inclusive than you think. You certainly don't have to be a Jew to please God & attain blessings!

Genuinely curious! Does this mean that, as someone who is atheist, I would still go to Paradise since I've "followed" those laws (see: haven't been a terrible person, but less out of fear and more out of just not wanting to be a terrible person)?

Unless, of course, not being heterosexual counts as "sexual immorality".
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 01:56:06 PM
Wow, Supertails! If you don't ask questions that would cross a Rabbi's eyes! Denial of God would be a bit of a difficulty, but if your failure to believe in Him comes from true lack of knowledge rather than malicious intent, there's that. The whole gay-straight thing is, IMHO, overrated. For a Jew, there are 613 Commandments of the Law, of which perhaps 5 or 6 deal w/ the gay issue. So, my point is, I personally feel that while one should strive to obey God in all things, disobeying Him in terms of who you sleep w/ is no less or greater an offence than disobeying Him any other way. & frankly, some Biblical scholars question precisely what God was forbidding in Leviticus. Was it Jewish men being w/ other men? In that case, you're good. Was it straight men being w/ other men? You're still ok. Even if it WAS all men, lets keep it in perspective. If you marry a woman & make your lives miserable, how pleasing will that be to God? My advice: whatever God  meant in Leviticus, if you can't be happy w/ a girl, & make
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 02:01:29 PM
her happy, then don't get married! Stay celibate if possible. But if that is not possible, then get w/ one, & be monogamous. God is merciful to all who call upon him. It is illogical to make the gay thing a bigger deal than it is. There are far more horrible things one can do than sharing intimacy w/ another consenting adult.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 22, 2014, 02:13:10 PM
As I've always been taught to understand it, it means chosen to service, to bring ethical monotheism to the world.

That's cool. Since God is making all the decisions it follows that noone can choose to be Jewish. And no Jew can choose to be not Jewish.

And if as a non Jew, a person gets to go to heaven anyway, because wereallequalamirite, then why bother? Judaism sounds like a lot of effort to me.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 02:18:57 PM
Well, I know some Jews by Choice. Its unusual, but not unheard of. & Judaism is an effort, but one that is very much worth it.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: beardo on January 22, 2014, 02:19:38 PM
Do the commandments forbid a person from being anything but heterosexual, or do they forbid the act of having sex with someone who isn't a person of the opposite sex?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 02:27:51 PM
Well, Beardo, they obviously can't forbid you from being a thing intrinsic to your biology. Nor are they worded to. Being gay is not a choice, last I heard. The most the commandments can do is forbid sex w/ certain people. As to whom, read my posts to Supertails above.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 22, 2014, 04:49:46 PM
Well, I know some Jews by Choice.

And they are seen by God as exactly the same as Jews that are "chosen"?

Its unusual, but not unheard of. & Judaism is an effort, but one that is very much worth it.

Doesn't sound like it. The reward is exactly the same.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Tau on January 22, 2014, 05:01:13 PM
Well, Blanko, so far as I know, Judaism teaches that a non-Jew is obligated to be a just & moral person, & is just as eligible for Paradise as any Jew. & no, you will not be bound to Jewish law now or then, but only the laws of Noah. Namely, don't murder. Don't steal. Don't blaspheme. Don't commit sexual immorality. Don't tear the limb of a living animal for food. Establish courts of justice in your land. & there is one more that I never recall, but it is also common sense derived. So really, we're more inclusive than you think. You certainly don't have to be a Jew to please God & attain blessings!

Genuinely curious! Does this mean that, as someone who is atheist, I would still go to Paradise since I've "followed" those laws (see: haven't been a terrible person, but less out of fear and more out of just not wanting to be a terrible person)?

Unless, of course, not being heterosexual counts as "sexual immorality".

I think it does. But don't worry, shaving and getting tattoos are just as bad. At this point, the LORD is gonna have to loosen his standards a bit if he wants to continue admitting people to his magical sky party.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: spank86 on January 22, 2014, 05:03:35 PM
Just think, what will you do in a trillion years when you've seen and done everything in creation?

add body chocolate, and do it again.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 05:08:43 PM
Yes, Jews by Choice are the same as Jews by Birth to God. Tatoos are strongly discouraged but not forbidden. Else what would happen to camp survivors w/ numbers on their arms. King David's mother Ruth is taken to have been a convert.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 22, 2014, 05:46:47 PM
Yes, Jews by Choice are the same as Jews by Birth to God.

So in fact God doesn't make the choice, humans do. Or is there some debate on the matter? And what happens if you leave Judaism? Does God still think you're a Jew?

Tatoos are strongly discouraged but not forbidden.

I don't think Leviticus speaks of strong discouragement. I think it says "Do Not". There's no mention of God distinguishing between tattoos of pagans (who must die) and tattoos of hardworking seafaring folk who like their mum.

Alternatively. What's the point in telling someone not to do something, and then letting them get away, punishment free, for having done it? Does this mean I can turn my daughter to prostitution? She won't have that fine ass forever.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 22, 2014, 05:56:47 PM
One who leaves Judaism is re: as an a apostate, which is not a good thing. One who becomes a Jew is re: as having been born w/ a Jewish soul. Mind you, these are human judgements. As to what the Deity thinks, we can't be certain. As to tatoos, I suspect, although I'm not sure, that the issue came up because of the Holocaust. I'd have to look into it further.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Lord Dave on January 22, 2014, 06:04:32 PM
I'm starting to think Heaven is an all you can eat buffet: for God.  When souls "join" with him it actually means he eats them.

Yummy!
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 22, 2014, 06:08:24 PM
As to what the Deity thinks, we can't be certain.

If only religion stopped here.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: spank86 on January 23, 2014, 08:53:40 AM
One who leaves Judaism is re: as an a apostate, which is not a good thing. One who becomes a Jew is re: as having been born w/ a Jewish soul. Mind you, these are human judgements. As to what the Deity thinks, we can't be certain. As to tatoos, I suspect, although I'm not sure, that the issue came up because of the Holocaust. I'd have to look into it further.

something tells me there's a difference between choosing to get an tattoo and having someone forcibly tattoo you, otherwise you'd got to hell for getting a scar from a dog bite.

It does beg the question of why a little butterfly tattoo is evil but it's ok to lop a bit off your knob.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: beardo on January 23, 2014, 09:09:47 AM
I understand the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. How do Jews deal with the situation?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 23, 2014, 10:23:04 AM
I understand the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death. How do Jews deal with the situation?

Ostracism. Like most other religions. I think this might be a social construct though. Some hold a funeral type ritual for the apostate.

Really though Jews should be murdering the person leaving. See Deuteronomy 13. If you don't murder them, then you too should be murdered. So in that light "GTFO" sounds positively liberal.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 23, 2014, 11:23:51 AM
It depends on how liberal the Jewish movement. Reform would say, 'Hey, good luck out there.' The Heredim would completely shun, which is pretty brutal when you live in a place that is 98% Jewish.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Lord Dave on January 23, 2014, 10:59:48 PM
I really hate to say it but I've seen a lot of ... unpleasant jewish shoppers.  For the most part they'll do things like buy an item then return it a few days later.  Sometimes used.  (the store they do this to allows it).  Not only that but when they buy things, they buy a TON of things.  Then return most, if not all of it.
This is a jewish community: Kiryas Joel.

As someone who knows plenty about jews, is this sort of behavior normal?  And if so, why do they do this?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 23, 2014, 11:27:48 PM
This thread is about Heaven. Please post questions in "Ask a Jew...Anything!"
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 12:57:20 AM
I KNEW Kiryas Joel (KJ) was going to come up. *FACE-PALM* Lets just say that KJ is the reason that people hate Jews. 99.8% Hasidic, it has its own way of doing EVERYTHING. These people are out there. An incorporated city, it has the highest percentage of households on EBT of any incorporated area in the US. 46% report speaking English not well or not @ all, although Yiddish is spoken by 100% of the population, & all signage, even official signage, is dual language. Don't worry. KJ is a place we hate as much as you do, kind of how the Mormons feel about the Fundamentalist Mormon polygs.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Lord Dave on January 24, 2014, 11:27:18 AM
You know about KJ?  Either you live in the area or its damn infamous.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 11:41:00 AM
I live in Iowa. Its damned infamous, especially among Jews, for making us look bad! I like Jewish neighbourhoods of places, like the area of Nashville that is about 85% Jewish, enough to make my life comfortable, but w/i 10 min car ride of the Gentile world. But KJ is, well, KJ. What more can be said?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Lord Dave on January 24, 2014, 11:52:05 AM
Well, good to know those Jews likely won't be in heaven.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 12:08:16 PM
Well, I shan't hazard a guess as to their eternal destination. & I have no objection to Hasidic Jews per se, or any other variety of believing Jew, no matter where he is on the conservative-liberal scale. The militant atheist ethnic Jews get under my skin a bit, but that's another issue. Even the non-militant atheists don't bother me. But KJ... They take religion & just make it outright weird. If it were Christian, people would call it cultish, almost, but its not pc to use that word about Jews. To be honest, I'd much prefer that you non-Jews didn't. But as a Jew, I can say, they are weird. They even got in trouble a few years back for voting how their Rebbe (spiritual leader) told them to! That IS almost cultish. You shouldn't say it, perhaps, but I'm a Jew, & I'll call a spade a spade. They are creepy.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2014, 12:19:02 PM
Why does it bother you if Jews are called cultish?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 24, 2014, 12:25:35 PM
You shouldn't say it, perhaps, but I'm a Jew

This is the new FES. We can say what we like. I even said "nigger" yesterday. It's OK though, I have a coworker who is currently black.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 12:26:43 PM
That's a fair question, & to be honest, I never really thought about it til now. I think it has to do w/ not wanting the 'OTHER' (read non-Jew) to judge us. Kind of like a Black man using the N-word, but God help anyone else who does. Its not logical. Cultish is cultish, whether I say it or you do. But it still bugs if you do. Its just one of those things.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 24, 2014, 12:58:38 PM
But failure to identify a cult surely leads to failure to challenge a cult, which in turn fails to stop the spread of a cult.

Your stance seems to be "we deal with our own issues" which ironically, is a little cultish.

A cult is usually identified as a cult of a person, i.e. a charismatic leader idolised by cult members who are forcibly secluded from the outside world practising beliefs that may be perceived (by non-cultists) as harmful. [Searching for a definition of a cult seems to bring up bat shit insane websites that condemn anyone that isn't Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Nigerian]

If this is what's happening in KJ then I'd have no difficulty saying it's a cult.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 01:06:08 PM
Well, I'd say it doesn't go that far. Although they do revere their Grand Rabbi a bit too much for my taste, their practice of Judaism is in no way dangerous to themselves or others. They're just a bit creepy. Its hard to explain to a Gentile unless he's actually dealt w/ them, as Dave seems to have, & even he doesn't get the finer distinctions.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 01:37:51 PM
As far as the 'we deal w/ our own issues' thing, you're right. & a lot of that comes from the days in Europe (particularly the Eastern part, but also the West) when Jews were obligated by Gentile govts to live apart from Gentiles in their own communities, & were autonomous in internal matters, so long as they paid taxes, shut up, & put up w/ the occasional pogrom or 2 every so often. When Jews migrated here, it seemed natural to do much the same thing. Even as Jews began to live among non-Jews, that attitude of 'our business is our business, butt out' has held on.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2014, 02:04:03 PM
Well, I'd say it doesn't go that far. Although they do revere their Grand Rabbi a bit too much for my taste, their practice of Judaism is in no way dangerous to themselves or others. They're just a bit creepy. Its hard to explain to a Gentile unless he's actually dealt w/ them, as Dave seems to have, & even he doesn't get the finer distinctions.

No its not hard to explain.  Use an analogy you bigoted bastard.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 02:16:15 PM
I'll ignore the 'bigoted bastard' part of that & try to answer the question, which, however rudely phrased, is fair. Perhaps its a bit like Mormons in some counties in Utah (not the whole state, which is 70% Mormon). In counties that run 98+% Mormon, its a bit creepy. They revere the 'General Authorities' of the LDS Church to a point that just makes any non-Mormon want to run for cover. But KJ makes non-Satmar Jews want to run for cover. Satmar is the type of Hasid they are. & if you're not, run. Even if you're a different kind of Jew, duck quick! Its KJ.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2014, 02:17:45 PM
Got it thanks.  You need to embrace your bigotry.  You will feel free and happier.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 02:59:42 PM
Its not bigoted to acknowledge that some things can't be properly understood by non-Jews. The same is true of any group. A woman doesn't always understand a man. A Jew certainly doesn't always understand a non-Jew. A member of one group can't always relate to a member of another. Recognising this does not make one bigoted.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 24, 2014, 03:53:09 PM
Stop feeding Yaakov.  I doubt he's even Jewish at all.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 04:11:28 PM
I am now convinced that Saddam is an a--hole.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: spank86 on January 24, 2014, 04:13:28 PM
I'll call a spade a spade. .

Now you know it upsets EJ when you make racial slurs.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 04:18:35 PM
Oh, yes. We mustn't upset 1/32. Heaven forbid!
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 24, 2014, 04:25:37 PM
I'll call a spade a spade. .

Now you know it upsets EJ when you make racial slurs.

To "call a spade a spade" is not racist. Spade refers to the shovel, not the colour of someone's skin. It means to speak plainly yet truthfully.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: spank86 on January 24, 2014, 04:27:59 PM
I'll call a spade a spade. .

Now you know it upsets EJ when you make racial slurs.

To "call a spade a spade" is not racist. Spade refers to the shovel, not the colour of someone's skin. It means to speak plainly yet truthfully.

That's what I get for not using smileys I suppose.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 24, 2014, 04:36:53 PM
That's what I get for not using smileys I suppose.

Are you suggesting all black people have large white teeth?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 04:39:20 PM
Fap is correct. But 1/32 WILL take it as racist, just bet.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: spank86 on January 24, 2014, 04:44:15 PM
That's what I get for not using smileys I suppose.

Are you suggesting all black people have large white teeth?

Some of them have no teeth.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: fappenhosen on January 24, 2014, 05:44:45 PM
That's what I get for not using smileys I suppose.

Are you suggesting all black people have large white teeth?

Some of them have no teeth.

reported.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: spank86 on January 24, 2014, 06:05:18 PM
That's what I get for not using smileys I suppose.

Are you suggesting all black people have large white teeth?

Some of them have no teeth.

reported.

reported for pointing out that some people have no teeth?

Or for derailing?
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 24, 2014, 06:08:00 PM
This is when a thread should be locked.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on January 24, 2014, 06:08:38 PM
And the thread is officially degenerate.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Rama Set on January 24, 2014, 08:04:32 PM
That happened a while ago.
Title: Re: Heaven
Post by: Roundy on January 25, 2014, 05:47:45 AM
This is actually one of the best threads on the new site.