Re: Heaven
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2014, 01:30:17 AM »
Yeah, because when I feel down, or angry, or frustrated, there are usually reasons for feeling that way. I feel sad because someone I love is lost to me, I feel angry because someone has wronged me, I feel frustrated because I want to get something done.

You could argue that in Heaven you simply have nothing to feel down about, but as we've said before, if loved ones aren't with you, you should feel sad (If I didn't I'd feel really guilty about insulting their memories. If I didn't feel guilty then I wouldn't be me.) . If you've got nothing to strive for and nothing to do, you should evenually feel bored.
I agree completely with you. I guess my only response is that you wouldn't care, because you're too busy being happy. Don't care; orgasming. Would I really be myself if I was constantly in ecstasy? No. Would I still be constantly in ecstasy? Yes. and that'd be super fun.
You don't think I'm going to post here sober, do you?  ???

I have embraced my Benny Franko side. I'm sleazy.

*

Offline Crudblud

  • *
  • Posts: 1727
  • A Moist Respectable Gentleman
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2014, 04:13:20 AM »
Disclaimer: I am tired and I have been drinking.

Say that in death the self gives up the body and upon being accepted into Heaven it is then stripped of all earthly things in a process of purification. All the things we carry with us in our mundane lives — knowledge, experience, memory, emotion and so on — we cannot take with us into Heaven because they are impurities of the self, but our impurities and imperfections are what make us human, so to be purified we must necessarily transcend our humanity and become something totally alien and incomprehensible. Chris could not know his loved ones were in Hell because not only would they no longer be his loved ones, he would not even be aware of their existence, he would have no memory or knowledge of love, he would not care that he knew nothing because he would not know what it is to know something or to care etc. Similarly, Franklin would not know that he was constantly orgasming or the joy of it, having no concept of pleasure, no physical senses as an incorporeal being and no memory of the five human senses or of the orgasm with which to simulate an impression of one, and he too would not care. Simply put, Heaven would be practically indistinguishable from absolute nothingness.

*

Online Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 7407
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2014, 02:24:38 PM »
You cannot cherry pick philosophies. Christian dualism contends that it is our soul that makes us human; otherwise we would be indistinguishable from animals. So when your soul goes to heaven it is taking the essential humanity only.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

*

Offline Crudblud

  • *
  • Posts: 1727
  • A Moist Respectable Gentleman
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2014, 05:20:57 PM »
You cannot cherry pick philosophies. Christian dualism contends that it is our soul that makes us human; otherwise we would be indistinguishable from animals. So when your soul goes to heaven it is taking the essential humanity only.
I'm not cherry picking anything. Furthermore the OP clearly states "many religions," not just Christianity (so far, you are the only person to explicitly mention it), so it seems reasonable to believe that "Heaven" and "Hell" are being used as a place-holder for the myriad concepts of afterlife around the world. If I've misinterpreted the OP, fair enough, but as it stands your rebuttal doesn't really have anything to do with what I said.

*

Online Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 7407
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2014, 08:07:42 PM »
For every religion though you must use a metaphysical explanation consistent with that religion considering religions are mutually exclusive (i.e. they can't all be true), that's all I mean.  When you mentioned Heaven as a place of purity, I took it to be a Christian conception of heaven; if I was wrong then my rebuttal smells of buttal.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

*

Offline Crudblud

  • *
  • Posts: 1727
  • A Moist Respectable Gentleman
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2014, 11:12:19 AM »
Well, Christianity does talk of an afterlife realm of purity or perfection, but I don't think that makes the idea exclusively Christian, anyone could hold it on its own, these are simply my musings on what such a place would actually be like according to my own ideas of purity and perfection. I have long held the belief that humanity is incompatible with perfection; when someone talks about a piece of music and calls it "perfect," for example, I always say that not only are human beings incapable of creating something perfect, they would also be incapable of comprehending or liking something that is perfect, whatever it may be, because "perfect" is entirely alien to us. Purity is similarly alien, and I think it is incongruous with our mundane lives, that if we are to ascend to a state of purity we must also shed everything that made us human and revert to a pre-birth state in which we are untouched by experience, emotion, sensation, knowledge and so on. The pure self is the undeveloped self, if you like, because it has no experiential data, it is an empty vessel capable of containing such data, but without the right input it remains empty. That is why I imagine such a place as Heaven to be indistinguishable from nothingness, because by being pure it has no allowance for anything we know here on this plane of existence, all of which is crucial to our understanding of the self and its relationship to its environment, but we would not experience this as loss because we would cease to experience anything, our memories of a time when the self and its surroundings were other than they are would be entirely lost, but we would also have no means of experiencing them as they are because there is none of that right input available.

Alternatively we could just say I was tired and drunk and leave it at that.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2014, 12:59:10 AM »
The OP talks of many religions. Judaism doesn't believe in eternal torment. The only Hell that exists is what people create. If you're a total asshole in life, even then your soul simply doesn't resurrect. We don't believe in Heaven as such, either. Olam Ha Ba (The World to Come) is thought of as Eden. We'll all live as Father Adam & Mother Eve did before the Fall. But ultimately, life after death is just another chapter. Our primary duty in life is to learn about God. That doesn't change just because we die. For the Jew, the Torah in force now stays in force then. So, what is all the fuss about? Of course, I can't speak for non-Jews.

Offline Blanko

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2471
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 01:04:51 AM »
I like Judaism more than Christianity already. If only you guys were more inclusive than not at all.

Re: Heaven
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 01:15:14 AM »
I had a conversation with a Jehovahs witness a while back.

"Look at this painting," she said. "Don't you think that looks like a wonderful sight?"
"What's this here?"
"That's a lion"
"And what's this here?"
"That's a lamb"
"Umm. What does the lion eat?"
"Flowers"
"If a lion on earth was told that he'd go to a place where he has to eat flowers for eternity, do you think he'd be happy?"
"Yes of course"
"I doubt it. Lion's love killing stuff. They've got big claws and teeth just so they can kill stuff. If I was a lion I'd want a heaven filled with lots of baby animals with broken legs."
"Well it is written that the lion shall lay down with the lamb"
"I know but it sounds like a bum deal for the lion. He can't be a lion anymore."
"But look at the painting. He looks happy."
Sighs. "Yes, he does.."

Actually I think it might have been this picture.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 01:17:01 AM »
Well, Blanko, so far as I know, Judaism teaches that a non-Jew is obligated to be a just & moral person, & is just as eligible for Paradise as any Jew. & no, you will not be bound to Jewish law now or then, but only the laws of Noah. Namely, don't murder. Don't steal. Don't blaspheme. Don't commit sexual immorality. Don't tear the limb of a living animal for food. Establish courts of justice in your land. & there is one more that I never recall, but it is also common sense derived. So really, we're more inclusive than you think. You certainly don't have to be a Jew to please God & attain blessings!

Re: Heaven
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2014, 01:20:56 AM »

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2014, 01:26:20 AM »
Yes, we are, but not in the way you're thinking. That has been a matter of intense Jewish thought for 4500 yrs. As I've always been taught to understand it, it means chosen to service, to bring ethical monotheism to the world. Just as the Kohanim are Priests to the Jewish People, so are the Jewish People a nation of Priests to mankind, if you get my rather imperfect analogy.

*

Online Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 7407
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 05:55:40 AM »
Yes, we are, but not in the way you're thinking. That has been a matter of intense Jewish thought for 4500 yrs. As I've always been taught to understand it, it means chosen to service, to bring ethical monotheism to the world. Just as the Kohanim are Priests to the Jewish People, so are the Jewish People a nation of Priests to mankind, if you get my rather imperfect analogy.

And to kill whomever is in the Holy Land amirite?
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 06:08:31 AM »
No. The Holy Land is to be ruled by Jews, yes. If strangers wish to dwell there, they may, under Jewish rule. Just as the US allows non-citizens to live here.

Thork

Re: Heaven
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2014, 08:46:51 AM »
No. The Holy Land is to be ruled by Jews, yes.
Well if we are going by that

Quote from: Deuteronomy 28:49
The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand
Hurry up China! >:(

*

Offline Pete Svarrior

  • e
  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12611
  • (>^_^)> it's propaganda time (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Heaven
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2014, 09:29:00 AM »
Funny, the local Catholic priests would have me believe that it's us who are The Chosen Nation™.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:09:32 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

<Parsifal> I like looking at Chinese Wikipedia with Noto installed
<Parsifal> I don't understand any of it but the symbols look nice

*

Offline Lord Dave

  • *
  • Posts: 6127
  • Grumpy old man.
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2014, 11:58:46 AM »
The OP talks of many religions. Judaism doesn't believe in eternal torment. The only Hell that exists is what people create. If you're a total asshole in life, even then your soul simply doesn't resurrect. We don't believe in Heaven as such, either. Olam Ha Ba (The World to Come) is thought of as Eden. We'll all live as Father Adam & Mother Eve did before the Fall. But ultimately, life after death is just another chapter. Our primary duty in life is to learn about God. That doesn't change just because we die. For the Jew, the Torah in force now stays in force then. So, what is all the fuss about? Of course, I can't speak for non-Jews.
If there is no eternal punishment for Jews, then what's their moral motivation to follow God?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

*

Offline beardo

  • *
  • Posts: 4603
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2014, 12:01:37 PM »
They want to reach Eden. Olam Ha-Ba. The Afterlife.
The Mastery.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: Heaven
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2014, 12:28:18 PM »
Well, Beardo, that is it, for many. On the other hand, Judaism places little emphasis on what you believe, & more on what you do. We are a religion of deed rather than creed. For example, what I said about the Afterlife is true for most Jews, but not all. Some Jews do believe differently. Some Hasidic Jews even believe in Transmigration of souls. So, Jews aren't of a piece. Never forget the old saying: If you have 3 Jews in a room, you have 4 opinions.

*

Offline Снупс

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1919
  • WhisperI'lllistentohearit
    • View Profile
Re: Heaven
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2014, 12:57:15 PM »
Well, Blanko, so far as I know, Judaism teaches that a non-Jew is obligated to be a just & moral person, & is just as eligible for Paradise as any Jew. & no, you will not be bound to Jewish law now or then, but only the laws of Noah. Namely, don't murder. Don't steal. Don't blaspheme. Don't commit sexual immorality. Don't tear the limb of a living animal for food. Establish courts of justice in your land. & there is one more that I never recall, but it is also common sense derived. So really, we're more inclusive than you think. You certainly don't have to be a Jew to please God & attain blessings!

Genuinely curious! Does this mean that, as someone who is atheist, I would still go to Paradise since I've "followed" those laws (see: haven't been a terrible person, but less out of fear and more out of just not wanting to be a terrible person)?

Unless, of course, not being heterosexual counts as "sexual immorality".
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.